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I have noticed, in some stories, a tendency for readers to praise the appearance of a complete asshole as a character. And I'm not saying that they enjoy seeing him/her get their just desserts, I'm saying that they recognize that the character is an utter douchebag and they like the story *because* of this and not *in spite* of it. You know the kind of character I mean, the one we all know couldn't get laid IRL even you gave them a handful of roofies, but in stories everyone falls head over heels for them. I fail to understand how being mistreated and considered inferior is a turn on in any way. Or, for example, how an allegedly sane, normal character suddenly goes 'hey, I should totally fuck this person who's totally disrespecting me!' Or, the trite excuse that is only a smidgen more plausible than the others: 'sure, she might be a bitch, but she's really hot and awesome in bed.' Seriously? That's their excuse for putting up with her? Wow. Here, random character, have a nickel and go buy yourself a spine. And what's worse, some people seem to genuinely think that this attitude is actually 'confidence' and praise it as a good thing. I'm not going to go into details on that, because it's a whole other can of worms. I'll be honest: This disturbs me. It disturbs me in the same way people filming a train wreck or car crash, instead of rushing to help or calling 911, disturb me. It's the kind of behavior I cannot wrap my mind around. My lack of comprehension needs to be remedied. So here I am, in the forums, asking any kind passer-bys to please explain to me how these people's brains work. Do tell me, I'm all eyes and ears. What makes you interested in this kind of people? How do you feel about this behavior, what parts of it appeal to you? Do you feel personally attracted to them or do you simply find it amusing/original/refreshing/daring/other? Do you believe that a story is automatically improved by the addition of a character such as this one? Anything at all that you feel can shed some light into this puzzling phenomenon will be more than welcome.

Very rarely will someone think of themselves as bad guys. Why? Because even a little genre savviness would tell them that their chances of success are pretty damn low. And this ruins morale like a frying pan to the face. Better to think off yourself as something that can be cast on a positive light, if only to fight less people on your way to the top. Me? Ripping on the site owner? Dear girl, I'm not that stupid... I wouldn't have a problem dissecting your reasoning to show you just how impractical it is to want something so rare, but if one removes the technical terms and adorns it a bit, you'll actually find yourself with the age-old speech of what women want in a man. Dissecting THAT would give me a headache and it's just too damn early in the day for me to hit the booze, Apollo. I will only say that I hope your search is fruitful. I'll comment on the side that "asshole" qualities might be all well and good for sex, but if you take that out of the equation, you get more problems in the relationship than the attitudes are worth. Social conditioning. It's far more acceptable for a man to be a total asshole than a woman to be a complete bitch. On the other hand, we have the apologists, who are more than willing to be guilt-tripped into accepting a bitch's bitchiness because of all the boohoohoo subjugation men have imposed on women for millennia. And this is about the SMART ones. The rest will just think "pussy = good, must have more" and take whatever she throws his way if she's sufficiently hot. In fact, one could say that a woman's Allowed Bitchiness is directly proportional to her hotness. And if she cultivates an image of being positively excellent in the sack but hard to get (and we assume she has the looks to pull this off), she's going to be allowed to disembowel a guy on the street before anyone objects. The problem with women is that very few of them are satisfied with sex the way a man their age is. Most women want a deeper connection, emotions and all that crap. Bitchiness sabotages relationships in the vast majority of cases. So a woman learns to exempt her loved one from her assholeness or become a master of subtlety. Men have no problem being assholes because this trait is very rarely an obstacle when it comes to getting sex. Look at Apollo and the way she so blatantly admits that this ridiculous behaviour actually has a positive effect on her. It is because of women like HER that this trait thrives (*points finger and glares* ). A woman who wants an emotional connection with her man will either have to settle for someone older (sacrificing looks) or keep trying until she finds the right person. Which, if one thinks about it, becomes highly ironic if a lot of time has passed and she has to settle for an older man... only now SHE is older too, and with a lot of baggage. So, to sum up: women aren't as prone to overt assholeness as men because they have different priorities and this trait usually becomes an obstacle in the path to achieving them. There are exceptions, of course, and I dare say the exceptions are slowly becoming the norm as time passes.

How about the evil villains that justify themselves by telling themselves they are doing the right thing...they don't think of themselves as the bad guys? To me the biggest "real" such bunch of Villains in society are politicians, and I am non-partician! They are too party centric [they believe there party can do no wrong] and this smoke screen keeps them from seeing what needs to done to help the country and the people as whole. And they justify themselves by holding the delusion that what each of their party wants is right and correct no matter who it hurt or kills in process. And we in society stupidly back them up and vote for bodies/faces/parties, rather than the necessary issues that need to be addressed... in a way we get what we deserve I suppose? I think this country's in bad shape and falling further into a dark deep hole, especially with joblessness and poverity,for our villainess politicians are the slaves and lackies of corporate purse string pullers, these people are making money on this country's present conditions... so why change things! They want the wealth to be in the hands of 10% of people or companies, while the other 90% of the people go to hell in a hand basket. Super Villains exist all around us, but they don't see themselves that way... no they think their the good guys! I perfer my dear unreal fantasy villains, who know they're the bad guys and when I get tired of them, I can close the book or turn off the computer, but truth and reality is a another story, we can't run from it... we are surrounded. Just a thought... or my opinion, Calanthee Perhaps I should just

Well, an opinion as a reader is welcome too! I'm actually more surprised by the positive reactions of the readers than by the fact that assholes are being written. I mean, the writer knows why the character is an asshole, but the readers don't, hence their liking surprises me. Hmmm, possibly. I agree with you on that, the typical yaoi seme needs a good punch in the face 99% of the time. Though I can't comment on Japanese culture since I'm woefully unfamiliar with it. I currently have two pet theories, neither of which is completely satisfying. One, that people are shallow (since IRL asshole personalities are usually associated with good looks) and seeing a douchebag character triggers social conditioning, therefore perceiving the character as attractive and likeable; and/or two, that people are spineless, and that bitch/asshole personalities make relationships easy for those who just want sex and/or someone who makes all the decisions for them and demands little in return but submission. Interesting point. I had heard of that, yes, but it's thankfully rare where I come from. Here, if a guy is a douche but hot, the girl will put up with him because she wants to get laid (and the relationship will continue only until she gets bored of him), or he's going to have to toe the line between charmingly cocky and disgustingly arrogant to keep her around. I think that this might stem from the fact that women aren't encouraged to being pursuers in a relationship, because although nowadays women KNOW that sex is pleasurable, society discourages them from actively going out to get some (calling them sluts and whores if they do so) and the asshole preys upon this to get laid (in that blog you linked, just from looking at the first few articles, you can tell that the guy is using basic exploitative psychology). Or that's what I believe, anyway.

Funnily enough, there is a reality outside of fiction behind people willing to date/fuck assholes/bitches/etc. Look at frats and sororities. 'Nuff said. There is psychology behind it all. There are a number of blogs that are devoted to it - It's called Game. And it works, over and over and over again. It goes back to the concept of Alpha, Beta and Omega males. I've read alot in regards to it and it never ceases to amaze me what women fall for...They call themselves seduction experts. Ugh! If you wanna read a blog that has such a variety of asshole moves that women fall for check out The Real Assanova. This guy is a king at Asshole Game and gets laid often for it. If even 1/2 of what he says is true, then it saddens me what women have come to.

Well, I know that for slash stories, since most of those authors are screaming yaoi fangirls, they get their ideas from yaoi. There are A LOT of those douche characters in yaoi plots that have everyone falling head over heels for them, including the pathetic main character(unless they, themselves, are the main character, but that's pretty rare). Those same fans tend to forget that the story lines they read from this genre are from Japan, where they have a completely different social upbringing from those of us in the U.S. (I would mention the rest of the western world, but I've never been anywhere else, so I'm not going to speak for them.) Japan is all about the community. They're brought up to think about the good of the whole, completely different from the individualistic upbringing of nearly every American out there. They use there writing and games and tv to express urges that wouldn't be acceptable in public. EVER. Most yaoi fans don't take this into consideration when they read the unrealistic plots and characters. And they don't take into consideration the culture that writes them. Now, I don't want to make any excuses for these slash writers. I'm an avid yaoi fangirl myself, but I know the difference between the U.S. and Japan and what's usually accepted in literature. (Of course, since it's pretty hard to find homoerotic literature out there, I'm no expert on our stuff either.) These specific slash writers just go with what they see often and don't think that, maybe, they have a gross misunderstanding of what's normal in literature. For any other genre, I have no clue. Maybe the same idea? But I kind of doubt that.

Replying to Robin because she sums up the latest points in the thread. Also, don't take my rant personally. I'm not lambasting anyone in particular. That is not a nice guy. That is a wuss. A pussy. A spineless weakling. It is a grave and most unfortunate mistake to confuse disgusting meekness and cowardice with "niceness." It is very possible to have a nice person that donates to charity, helps old ladies, loves dogs, cats and children, and snarks the fuck out of you if you provoke him. You merely need to use good old fashioned logic. After all, a complete doormat does not get through life with such an attitude unless he makes friends who take care of him, or suffers a nervous breakdown. Why? Because people will use and abuse doormats until there is nothing left of them but a empty, soulless husk. That is simply the way the world works. If the doormat does not have a solid circle of friends, family and loved ones to shelter him from the worst parts of the world, then people WILL drain every single drop of humanity from them. Because, again, that's what most people do. Now, logic tells us that either the doormat had a breakdown and hardened (learns how to say no, develops a way to get rid of moochers, learns to avoid toxic relationships, etc.), or we get a cast of people who swing between trying to help the doormat help himself, using him for their own ends, and coddling him all the time because he's just so sweet and they don't want that good-natured innocence to fade or be tarnished by the cruel outside world. And guess what? All of this? STORY FODDER. A FUCKING PLOT THAT COULD SPAN CHAPTERS. And this just a take on your average doormat. Like I said earlier, you can have a nice person with a dark side, or just someone who has steel-hard ethics and will NOT take crap from you or anyone else. He will help you in your darkest hour and if you so much dare to be an ungrateful bitch or bastard to him, he will verbally smack you down so hard your ass will end up facing the goddamn sun. To sum up: THINK, BITCHES. Don't take the lazy way out and write some random douchebag because you can't be bothered to come up with a real person. Fucking mother of shit. As an aside that really doesn't concern the thread, but might prove to be mildly interesting food for thought for anyone, I have been mulling over why people are so attracted to villains and assholes. I think that it all comes down to most people being... how do I put this mildly... "cowardly," I think, is the least insulting term for it. There's a vast amount of people who have enormous fear of peer pressure and social repercussions, so they spend a lot of time censoring themselves and repressing their less savoury impulses. The problem is that they don't do this because they realize that they are morally wrong (and I mean 'morally wrong' with an actual logical thought process that leads the person to understand why it is wrong, not just an empty label), but because they fear the consequences of their actions. Therefore, they are in reality quite frustrated at their inability to express their deepest desires, which leads to them living vicariously through those who do. Which are, of course, villains and assholes. To me, evil is banal and mind-numbingly boring. Not to mention that 99.9999% of villains are actually very, very stupid. If a random peasant schmuck can defeat them, they are not very smart in the first place. A smart person does not wave their hand scornfully at the notion of the Power of Love, much less when there is actual evidence of its existence! A smart person says "All right, this is worth investigating. How may I use this new resource to achieve my ends?" And even if we take a "genius" (and fucking shit, do I ever use that term loosely when referring to villains...) whose methods are intelligent and pragmatic, there is always the logical massacre that is their set of goals. Truly, for people who are allegedly super smart, they sure seem to forget very basic things, like sociology, biology, psychology and who knows what else. I mean, really. Killing people to make a point? Sure, that will go over well with the public. Blowing shit up? That will get you ADORING FANS (and yes, I am aware that they do get adoring fans at times. Those people are retards. I am talking about the general populace). World domination? My god, pick up ANY history book and read about the HUNDREDS of leaders who have tried that. Revenge? That one is especially good, since apparently thinking about the consequences of one's actions is a lost art. Screwing over everyone to get some selfish goal? Right, society will get very far with people like that. You BETTER not complain about other people being assholes, with the example you're setting. But I think that the point that grates on me the most about villains is how they go against the very nature of biology itself. Life wants one thing, and one thing only: to survive. How does it achieve this? By two means: it multiplies and it improves. The last bit is the one that most villains seem to ignore. Improving means becoming better, overcoming one's flaws to develop new strengths. Selfishness, and its manifestations thereof (screwing over others, hoarding resources, etc.), is actually detrimental to the survival of the species. It might do wonders for the survival of the individual (and that is why all individuals are innately selfish, to give them a strong survival tool), but it is very detrimental to the improvement of society. The reason we have ethics and morals in the first place is because we must curb down the selfish impulse (and the anomalies, such as psychopaths and the like) so that we can improve as a species. Villains, assholes and idiots are hindrances to society. They must be reeducated or removed from a position in which they can do harm. Of course, I'm not saying that villains are useless! Far from it. What I am saying is that liking villains is akin to liking the big piece of lead that's making you row extra harder. It provides conflict to the story and it is most interesting when villains are actually intelligent (though I am personally a fan of mindless, nigh unstoppable forces as antagonists), and not drooling imbeciles. But that's just my take on this issue. That is all. Class dismissed. EDIT: And there goes the ninja wench, summing up my entire point with such elegance!