The eternal youth conundrum

[24CaratCoal]

We've all seen this one before, the ever young immortal child be they the unlucky Immortal from Highlander that died too young or the little girl that some vampire with a fetish wanted as a figurative bedwarmer. You know the character is far older than any of us will ever naturally live to be, but they're stuck looking like a kid for the rest of their natural lives. Just out of personal curiosity (I caught the summary of a Babette centered fic) and for general reference for others who are curious. What are the appropriate tags for a 100+ year old immortal who looks 13/14 at most? Most look younger honestly.

[CL Mustafic]

I don't know officially but I will tell you from my own personal perspective that I wouldn't care if they were a million years old, if they appeared as a child under the age of 14, I'd prefer the story to have a Minor1 tag so that I'd know to avoid it.

While I understand that mentally they are an adult, the picture I'd form in my head would be that of a child and I find any type of sexual situations involving children to be disconcerting. I'd hate to just stumble upon it without being warned ahead of time.

Maybe if this situation arises you could tag it Minor1 but then in the author's note at the beginning you could explain the actual situation?

CL

[BronxWench]

That's actually an interesting question, and to be honest, as a reader, I think I'm with CL on this one. I'm not at all fond of children in sexual situations, and prefer being forewarned. I can get past a Minor2, but Minor1 makes me exceedingly uncomfortable.

However, the tags refer to actual chronological age, and not appearance, so if the character is actually 100+ years old, I could not, in all fairness, warn for a missing tag on the basis of appearance, as long as the character's chronological age was clearly stated. If I see the first three chapters showing an apparent child, with no reason for the reader to believe that the character is actually ancient, then I would ask for the tag to avoid having to deal with irate email reports.

[24CaratCoal]

Would a new tag be appropriate for this? Minor3 maybe? Somebody who is actually significantly older but still look like someone underage.

[BronxWench]

As one of the folks who gets to read all content for tagging, I'm always reluctant to add tags. We've been asked about tags for when the minor child is initiating the sexual content, and to our thinking, there is no difference in who initiates the contact. Sex with a person under 18 is still sex with a person under 18, and there is no law that I'm aware of that states anyone under 13 can give legal consent to anything, much less sex.

Having said that, I think what we have works, and the author needs to be mindful of the readers when tagging. I've tagged for Rape even when it happens offstage and is only mentioned in passing, since I know it can profoundly disturb people to encounter even a mention of that. And this being AFF, there are people for whom a Minor1 or Minor2 tag is what they look for.

We're not here to judge anyone's interests, but we do try to make sure no one is sandbagged with a nasty surprise.

[JayDee]

Eeep! I always thought it was physical appearance age for non-human characters. Does that mean characters like Kes from Deep Space 9 who is physically and mentally an adult but actually 2 years old or accelerated growth clones (Star Trek again - jem'hadar are ready to kick ass at 3 days) etc all need the minor1 tag?

Edited February 3, 2016 by JayDee

[BronxWench]

Non-human characters are a whole new ball of wax, and in those cases. one can safely presume that the readers are going to be familiar enough with the fandom to know better. I'd not tag either Kes or a jem'hadar character as Minor1 because it's understood that the aging principle operates differently.

But everyone has a different take on vampires and the like, with everything from Nosferatu to Twilight as the examples of how widely they can vary. So in those cases, unless the author is very clear from the get-go that this particular character is a vampire/immortal/undead, but has the appearance of a child, then it's safer to tag if the character is going to be involved in sexual activity.

Clear as mud yet?

[CL Mustafic]

If we were going by mental age, most of my stories should have at least a Minor2 tag on them since they're all immature idiots.

I'm going with if it looks like a child and it's having sex tag it as such.

[24CaratCoal]

So, probably the best way to go about this would be either a warning in the summary or at least right at the start of the chapter "this character is CCC years old but looks X years old because Y" (thank you Romans ) instead of an all new tag which could be misconstrude. Seems fair enough to me, I just figured this should be brought up to avoid tagging comfusion.

[BronxWench]

The warning certainly covers it!

[GeorgeGlass]

As one who frequently (and shamelessly) posts stories in which underage characters have sex, I'd say it's best to err on the side of caution. If you're describing the sex scenes well enough for readers to visualize them, then they're going to "see" an adolescent having sex, regardless of the character's chronological age. So IMO, tag that mother.

BTW, I would say the same thing if the character had a child's mind and an adult's body instead of the other way around. Because presumably, the character's dialogue would be like that of a child rather than an adult, and that would be enough to justify the tag in at least some readers' minds.

The warning at the beginning is a good idea too, of course. I'd probably do both. (And I often do.)

[24CaratCoal]

Good point, I hadn't actually thought of that. I only thought of this because of seeing a fic with a character I know to look like a child despite being 300+ years old and then realized it was fairly common in fiction and I had now idea how to properly tag it. Adults with the mentality of children are a lot more common (I know a few) than adults who look like children (I know one and honestly it's kind of freaky to see someone you know to be older than you looking thirteen). I don't plan to write either (though if my muse ever comes back it may happen) but I feel better knowing to post a warning to avoid confusion just in case.

[PervOtaku]

Any time somebody in some erotica site forum starts complaining about underage character restrictions, the inevitable dodge attempts come up.

The android that looks like an adult but was only built five years ago. The 200-year-old vampire that was turned when she was 12 and hasn't aged since. The extraterrestrial that is well over 18 and an adult for her species, but adults of her species look like 12-year-old humans.

The rule of thumb that is generally agreed upon is to consider what age actress would be required to play her in a film. If you've concocted some excuse why the underage girl having sex isn't really an underage girl, you are most likely trying to play to the pedophile fetish while using a rules lawyer type dodge to "technically" escape an anti-pedophile restriction.

[24CaratCoal]

I'm not actually interested in the whole "loli" thing, it's not my niche and does nothing for me. That said I felt it was best to get some clarification on how that should be tagged, IE whether it needed Minor1/Minor2 or not and how that was decided. I started this thread for that reason, the answer has been given and now if someone else is curious they can look it up and find the answer.

Tag by age, if they age faster use the Harkness test (specifically is it of sexual maturity for it's species? As in the case of Kes from voyager) to decide if it needs a minor tag. Either way, a warning is a good idea. Plain, simple, question answered. Have fun writing, ya deviants! Oh, wait, I'm a deviant too.

[GeorgeGlass]

Any time somebody in some erotica site forum starts complaining about underage character restrictions, the inevitable dodge attempts come up.

Except that this site doesn't have underage character restrictions (except regarding stories about real people)--it just requires tags if you have underage characters having sex. (Which is why AFF shall have my eternal allegiance. ) So no "dodge attempts" are necessary.

Tag by age, if they age faster use the Harkness test (specifically is it of sexual maturity for it's species? As in the case of Kes from voyager) to decide if it needs a minor tag. E

I'd never heard of the Harkness test. Good to know.

And Kes is a good example of a character who is "underage" by our chronological standards but who is clearly physically and mentally mature. If I wrote a story about her that involved sex, I would definitely not be inclined to use the Minor1 tag, and I can't imagine anyone feeling deceived because I didn't.

[24CaratCoal]

Yeah, I came across it online. It actually is for "does it count as Bestiality?"

The three questions are:

Does it have human intelligence (or "greater")?

Can it talk or otherwise communicate with language*? (*Body language is a dangerous road, err on the side of caution- according to the illustration I have)

Is if of sexual maturity for its species?

If the answer to all three of is yes, then it's considered safe to have sex with- IE it's a sapient creature of consensual age.

If the answer is no to one or more than it's bestiality- or possibly paedophilia.

The test is named after Pansexual Doctor Who/Torchwood character from the 51st century Jack Harkness.

[Desiderius Price]

I use the rule of thumb that if I have to ask whether a particular tag suits, then it's better to over-tag than to under-tag. I treat tags as warnings, not advertisements.

- DP

[24CaratCoal]

Alas, no like button. Very true, but knowing when to post what tags is better IMHO. Too many tags (especially if they don't all fit) can get confusing for the reader. Besides, if it comes up that you need a tag that you didn't before, you can always just add the new ones as they apply unless you know for sure they're going to apply at the start of the story.

[PervOtaku]

Yeah, I came across it online. It actually is for "does it count as Bestiality?"

The three questions are:

Does it have human intelligence (or "greater")?

Can it talk or otherwise communicate with language*? (*Body language is a dangerous road, err on the side of caution- according to the illustration I have)

Is if of sexual maturity for its species?

On another site that has a restriction against bestiality, the rule of thumb seems to be reproducibility. Mythical animals are fine, animals you can find here on earth in real life aren't. This is similar concept to the "nobody that looks underage, but under 18 and clearly looks over 18 is okay" rule I mentioned before.

And obviously the rules, or lack of them, vary from site to site.