Spanking: abuse or Discipline? Class project

[kagome26isawsome]

So this is for my Child welfare class. I have to debate this at the end of the month and i want to get peoples opinion. It could help me out! I am for spanking (and that is what my side of the debate is too) so again this is to get an idea. Keep it clean and be mindful of others opinions.

Edited November 1, 2012 by kagome2526

[BronxWench]

For clarity, let me begin by saying that spanking has as many definitions as there are people would will talk about it. So, as a caveat, I can only speak from my own definition, which is an open-handed smack, administered with a bare hand, to a bottom. No paddles, implements, or other enhancements, and no striking anywhere else.

I have two children who are now teenagers, may the gods look kindly on me. Spanking was not a routine form of punishment, but I have spanked and do not regret it. While my children lived in dread of being on the receiving end of one of my lectures, when they each ran out into the street as toddlers, it was a particularly lousy moment for a lecture. It was a brilliant moment for me to catch the speedy little offender, administer one open-handed swat to the well padded bottom of the offender and yell, "NO!" quite emphatically. The little miscreant burst into tears because I did not normally scream or spank. It was a stupendously effective attention-getter, and neither of them ran into the street more than once.

If used sparingly, it's discipline.

[kagome26isawsome]

I either got spanked on the ass with a hand or a belt. When my mom couldn't get a belt, she used a plastic spoon! THAT HURT but it taught me and my sister that what we did was wrong and we should never do it again. Mostly got 3 smacks and that was it.

[WillowDarkling]

I agree whole heartedly with BronxWench. Open handed on the butt is acceptable, and I draw the line at implements, like paddles or belts. That I would see as abusive.

I do not have kids, so this is solely based on my personal experience. I grew up in a home where the parents never, ever raised their voices at each other, or let us witness any kind of disagreement between themselves, and the only screaming that went on, was between me and my sisters when we disagreed with each other.

I was spanked once in my life.

I was probably about six or seven, and was refusing to eat my food. My father has always been a stoic man, but that evening he grabbed me by the arm, gave me one open handed smack on the butt and threw me into my room, and told me to stay there until I could be more grateful.

And an hour later I went back to the kitchen and ate my cold fish, and never refused to eat again, no matter how much I hated fish. And I was never spanked again, ever.

[DemonGoddess]

I was spanked as a child, and spanked my children where it was needed. When done where it is not to excess, it is a very effective disciplinary tool. The noise of the swat tends to freak 'em out more than anything I think, and actually MAKE the child really think about what he or she did to get that kind of attention from a parent.

[Cuzosu]

In my family, the rule of thumb is that one swat properly applied is all it takes. As long as you're consistent, firm, and don't swat the kid over every little mistake, it works. And if you start it when they're young enough, it's more about the sound than the pain - and will usually teach the kid that that tone of voice it goes with means he/she is in trouble and ought to behave.

I've heard of and seen spanking being over-done, of course - I think most of us have. But some kids just don't learn without that physical discipline, and sometimes my boyfriend, my brothers and I were among them. Of course, my bf maybe got lucky and wasn't spanked as much as he should have been, because his dog would sit on him when he was doing stupid things. ("Sit! Stay! Behave! ... Good human.")

[botticelliangel]

I agree with BronxWench. Spanking can be used to discipline a child, and taken to far it can become abuse. I would also like to point out that it could be abuse even if done mildly depending on who the child is and what their history is. For instance using spanking as a discipline for a child that has previously been abused or neglected will always be abuse because of their past circumstances.

[BronxWench]

I agree with BronxWench. Spanking can be used to discipline a child, and taken to far it can become abuse. I would also like to point out that it could be abuse even if done mildly depending on who the child is and what their history is. For instance using spanking as a discipline for a child that has previously been abused or neglected will always be abuse because of their past circumstances.

Oh, of course! I completely agree that a child who was previously abused should never be spanked. My POV was derived from my experiences as a child and with my own children, who might consider having rules and curfews and things abuse, but who have been loved and cherished all their lives.

[ApolloImperium]

I can't add anything that hasn't already been said! But I agree completely with them ^

[kagome26isawsome]

I agree with BronxWench. Spanking can be used to discipline a child, and taken to far it can become abuse. I would also like to point out that it could be abuse even if done mildly depending on who the child is and what their history is. For instance using spanking as a discipline for a child that has previously been abused or neglected will always be abuse because of their past circumstances.

I agree and will so blow my teacher away with this! Thank you for all the input so far! XD

[Cuzosu]

I agree with BronxWench. Spanking can be used to discipline a child, and taken to far it can become abuse. I would also like to point out that it could be abuse even if done mildly depending on who the child is and what their history is. For instance using spanking as a discipline for a child that has previously been abused or neglected will always be abuse because of their past circumstances.

Yes. Though, like I said previously, some kids don't learn without the physical aspect of discipline. I know most of my family wouldn't be near as good as we are if there hadn't been a swat or two from people who knew how to use them in moderation. Although my dad has an explosive temper (no, he's never raised a hand to a kid in anger that I'm aware of, and if he did with anyone it probably would have been me or my sister) and could cow almost anyone with his voice alone, so when we were in trouble he just yelled and got really loud toward us. This did not particularly teach me to behave. It taught me to sneak and be a canny little seemingly innocent brat, because living with him and seeing him get mad over things he shouldn't have...well, let's just say that I learned how to snap and snarl right back at him when I felt he was in the wrong. If he'd spanked me instead, maybe I wouldn't have been so bold, but.... Anyway, I was a much more obedient, well-behaved child around my grandpa, who follows the one swat properly applied rule almost religiously. (I have never seen anyone follow it as well as he does. It inspired me. Not only to obedience, but also to the point where, when I have kids, I am going to follow it just as well, with either gender of child, because I've seen it work right. And, okay, in part because I think it could have been used on my younger twin brothers to good effect if only my mom and step dad had started with it when they were young enough. When they did start, it was too late and they wound up going overboard. Now they're disrespectful moronic teenagers who ought to have been kicked out when they finished their senior year in high school. And by disrespectful I mean that their behavior is something anyone else I know would have been booted to the curb for immediately. Including me.)

[Raymy]

*eep*

I seem to be the only one so far to vote "abuse". I would have chosen a 3rd category of both and I think others would agree based on their comments. Clearly, "it depends". However, I took the position of abuse to be devil's advocate and provide counter arguments to ponder. Shock-value seems to be the only benefit to physical aggression and although it may be necessary sometimes, it may not be mentally healthy to either party. I guess its a matter of definition, then. I think abuse is the label used when the result has a negative feedback, even if there are positive results. Discipline is guidance, rules and appropriate consequences to form or change behaviour, although the dictionary includes the word 'punishment' which connotes abuse, in my book.

A child may register the importance of the offending act more readily from a spank or may be "shocked" into snapping out of an escalating tantrum, but also learns that superiority enforced with physical trauma and pain, however slight, is condoned by the caregiver's use of it. This is a person who figures centrally on the dependant child. Some children can translate this as "monkey see, monkey do" and end up re-enacting on the playground or later in relationships. Regardless of how controlled the giver is, and IMHO control is rarely 100%, the message is that one person can dominate another using force. Indeed, a parent needs to establish this dominating role to fortify their position as the authority, however, there are other means and methods that don't need physical displays to strengthen this position. I feel the spanker can easily lose control, maybe not always, but eventually. I speak from experience, and it weighs heavily on my mind. Not to mention that it emotionally distances the two in order to be effective. It's tough to bring the child back into your trust, when the threat is present. Hence, the unhealthy affect to both.

The problem is that we're not born with the skills to deal with civilizing our children. Our innate response to disobedience is anger, and escalates to physical dominance. Even if we, as adults, have learned to control our impulses, we still need to further learn alternate ways to teach and guide our children. If we use a spank to send a message, perhaps we need to send another one in tandem to mitigate the detrimental effects. I, personally, have decided to halt the use of spanking because of my own journey to improve my communication with my son and my desire to maintain 'control' of my emotions during especially trying moments with him.

[Cuzosu]

I can see your point, Raymy. I don't entirely agree with it, but I can at least understand where you're coming from. And the reason I don't agree with you is probably because I grew up with a variety of different discipline methods (Grandma sent me to the corner, Grandpa warned once and then swatted once, Dad yelled, Mom overreacted, and the other adults I consider adopted parents sometimes had the same overreactions and yelling and...) and I know what worked best with me and why.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that a lack of spanking will fail with every child. But what made me a teenager who didn't go around behind my parents' backs (well, at least my mom and step dad, since my dad's wife has him blind and irrational where I'm concerned, or at least did until very, very recently).... What made me the self-responsible, caring, open teenager I was, was a combination of factors.

The points meaning, in short, that I was raised to:

Never judge people - though I'm not perfect and this means that the other half of this is: without due cause to myself or someone I know personally.

Never try to live another person's life; it's theirs and such behavior only stirs resentment.

People don't listen well to orders, so try advice, suggestions and requests. Only lay down the law when you absolutely need to.

One swat properly applied is all it takes. Start it when the kid starts figuring out not only what no means but why no is being said, but until they fully understand the whys you have to warn the child first - preferably with a reason explaining why they're going to be in trouble. This reinforces the idea that the parents care and yet are still in charge.

No matter what, if you're a parent, the kid. Comes. First. This rule is also true for pets, because if you're not going to be responsible for them you shouldn't have them. Honestly I've been in both situations and they. Drive. Me. Nuts. Personal experience has made this point and the next major pet peeves of mine, because my mom was always very clear with us about why she did things and trusts us implicitly to tell the truth if we're involved in anything other than sibling spats. My dad.... If he put me first when he wasn't single, it was never in a way I understood and he never tried to talk to me about it, and then trust...yeah right. I only wish he'd ever had the brains to trust me and the dog instead of taking the word of whatever woman he was with.

Trust your child. If they say something about another person, kid or adult, to indicate that there's bullying or something shady going on, do not call the kid a liar, do not wave their concerns aside. Believe them if they give you a reason (not "This person's mean" but more like "This person scares me. I don't know why, but he/she scares me." "I don't like the looks this person gives me." Things like that). Give them the benefit of the doubt, innocent until proven guilty (exceptions being when their eyes or expressions or behavior show they've been up to mischief). If they're proven guilty, be firm but disappointed and explain why you're disappointed. They should know; it helps them remember that you care, even if you've just used that one swat. And when they're doing so good you stop having to swat them at all (usually between six and ten, in my personal experience), don't start spanking them again if they get in trouble. Be disappointed. Be hurt. Cut their allowance, their free time, their luxuries, give them extra chores, whatever you feel necessary as long as you're careful not to overreact. Always allow the option of earning these things back, give the child unconditional love but from the time they stop needing spanked, hold them responsible for their own choices. You see, my grandpa and my mom and step dad did that. They held me responsible. They were disappointed in me from time to time, they explained to me why my actions had made them feel hurt and disappointed...and I like to think I turned out pretty well, considering how messed up I could have been.

Spend time with the kids, too. It doesn't matter how tired you are, they need that contact. If you fall asleep watching a movie with them, oh well. If you take them to their grandparents' house and spend half the time zonked out in a chair or on the couch because you're just that tired, that's fine. They can wake you up. Go camping with them, spend your day off at the amusement park - even ask them to dry and put up the dishes you wash, just to spend time with them. Do something with them that you know they like, spontaneously, just to make them smile. Take them for a drive just to see new scenery, take the dogs for a walk, play board games with them! Idle chatter, the little things - they matter. Even if you spank a child once in a while for misbehavior, if you spend time with your child and make it clear that you're interested, that you're trying, they will understand that you care and that even if you're making mistakes, you're trying because you love them, and they'll love you for it. Most likely forgive you, too, for all the mistakes you make. Kids are great like that.

...I feel like I got a bit off topic, but I was trying to respond to your (understandable, very reasonable) post, Raymy. And no, none of us are born knowing how best to raise kids. If we were, none of us would have these kinds of debates, and probably there would be a lot more people acting just the same. Boring.

Maybe part of the reason why I can be so...standoffish?...and ignore my own anger/fear so well with kids (I was more of a mother to my brothers than my mom was, due to her after-rape trauma and subsequent guy problems) is because I come from a very protective, loving family that knows too much protection is a slow-strangling cage, so if I wanted to spread my wings, try something out, I had help and hands to catch me. But the other part is that - probably because I sat in on college psychology and social science classes while my dad got a degree in college, about the time I was 2-5 or thereabouts, and absorbed some of the lessons on a subconscious level - I am a very analytical person when it comes to emotions. I also believe in training pets the same way I believe in raising children, because I grew up with a dog and a cat so smart and with such a loving heart that I just can't see pets in any other way. (The cat lived with my grandparents because the dog would have killed him, but they were only about four blocks away; I was allowed to walk that far as long as the grandparents knew I was coming.) The difference in how I discipline dogs/cats versus kids is that kids I'll swat. Dogs I rap once on the nose with two fingers, never more. And cats - my mom ought to be called the cat whisperer; she swears by tapping them once between the eyes as you tell them no. Considering she had a cat who was trained to clean his paws before he came inside, I'll stick with her method.

So, as you can see, I feel that phsyical discipline - in moderation - goes a long way and has no detrimental effects. Certainly I have none from my grandpa's spankings when I was younger, and I don't remember my mom or step dad ever spanking me, though I'm sure at some point they did. But if they did, it was before I was five. Having younger twin brothers made me somewhat precocious; I matured way fast, even for my family.

[Raymy]

Wow, Cuzosu, I guess my "devil's advocate" post worked! So glad you shared your experience and I hope you have much success with your future kids. We all speak from our own experience, and I had a good upbringing with only one or two spankings that I remember. One pissed me off because I learned the lesson before the spank was given, so felt it was extra and it caused me to be angry with my parent for awhile after. I'm not scarred, though.

I love the "one tap to the head" for cats! Wipe his feet! That would be great after they exit the litter box. I just tried it with my bothersome kitty who puts his claws into me when asking for food while I'm typing. He gave me a "whajadodatfor?" look, settled down, and is now waiting patiently for me to finish. It worked!

[Windrider Shiva]

I'd have gone with a "it depends" category too.

On my end... well my parents never really seemed to believe in corporal punishment. I was spanked once, and that was it - I even think my mom apologized for it when I became older. I don't remember why, but I must've done something serious. They'd rather sit down with me and talk about what I had done wrong than punish me. I've always been sensitive to sounds, and just talking loudly reduced me to a pulp. I was sent to my room twice I think, in my lifetime. Then again, I apparently wasn't the most problematic child on earth. I'm a unique child, so I can't compare with siblings. Even when I try to compare with my closer relatives, like my cousins... well, I can't remember any instance of them saying that they were spanked or received corporal punishment.

But I look at my parents, who were spanked and belted even. It was the standard punishment. With the way they dealt with me, I'm guessing they weren't fond of it either. And in return, I don't really believe in it either, though I agree some kids may need it. I'm no child expert, I don't have any on my own, so in all honestly, I don't even know how I'd react. So I might side on my parents with this one - the very last resort.

[Cuzosu]

Wow, Cuzosu, I guess my "devil's advocate" post worked! So glad you shared your experience and I hope you have much success with your future kids. We all speak from our own experience, and I had a good upbringing with only one or two spankings that I remember. One pissed me off because I learned the lesson before the spank was given, so felt it was extra and it caused me to be angry with my parent for awhile after. I'm not scarred, though.

I love the "one tap to the head" for cats! Wipe his feet! That would be great after they exit the litter box. I just tried it with my bothersome kitty who puts his claws into me when asking for food while I'm typing. He gave me a "whajadodatfor?" look, settled down, and is now waiting patiently for me to finish. It worked!

Yes, it certainly did! I agree that being punished after you've learned the lesson is overkill, at least to the child's mind (I had a very similar experience, except I think it was that I kept getting lectured by different family members after they heard about the incident).

Certainly I'm not saying I'll be a perfect parent - I don't think there's any such thing. But I believe that trust is the key to having a real family, and I've seen/experienced how a family - even one that's close - can break down if that trust is lost. My relationship with my dad is just now beginning to recover, and it's been six, seven years since I moved out of his house? Something like that.

I think I'm more scarred by my grandpa's pinching than I could ever have been by his spanking. Man has an iron pinch! I mean, OW! And he doesn't do it to punish people; he just doesn't realize how strong his fingers are, so when he gets you - usually as you're climbing into a truck - you start figuring out ways to either get faster or hide your butt from his pinches. I move quick when I get into a truck and he's getting in behind me.

Hahaha, yes, like I said, my mom ought to be called the Cat Whisperer. She loves cats, and dogs, and other animals, but mostly cats. Currently she has a boxer that thinks she's part cat, wriggles her way as far into my mom's lap as she can get and then whines and nuzzles and otherwise begs for attention. No joke, she will rub up against you to get petted, just like a cat. It's pretty cute. Though her cat who wiped his feet...his name was Zeke, and he had a thing for button shirts. Especially if they had rounded, shiny buttons. Everyone who knew the cat swears to me that you could tell when he was going to go for her buttons, because he'd squint and lay his ears back and be staring at my mom, knowing he was going to get the dreaded tap...but eventually going for it anyway. She never could train him out of that habit, but that's probably because pets of our family always have stubborn streaks and one or two bad habits they refuse to give up. Usually because they make us laugh.

I'd have gone with a "it depends" category too.

On my end... well my parents never really seemed to believe in corporal punishment. I was spanked once, and that was it - I even think my mom apologized for it when I became older. I don't remember why, but I must've done something serious. They'd rather sit down with me and talk about what I had done wrong than punish me. I've always been sensitive to sounds, and just talking loudly reduced me to a pulp. I was sent to my room twice I think, in my lifetime. Then again, I apparently wasn't the most problematic child on earth. I'm a unique child, so I can't compare with siblings. Even when I try to compare with my closer relatives, like my cousins... well, I can't remember any instance of them saying that they were spanked or received corporal punishment.

But I look at my parents, who were spanked and belted even. It was the standard punishment. With the way they dealt with me, I'm guessing they weren't fond of it either. And in return, I don't really believe in it either, though I agree some kids may need it. I'm no child expert, I don't have any on my own, so in all honestly, I don't even know how I'd react. So I might side on my parents with this one - the very last resort.

Mostly it depends on the kid. I know that most kids who have ADD or ADHD have a hard time learning lessons from just words, because I've known a lot of people with such disorders - including myself and my boyfriend and two of my younger brothers. Bipolar kids often need different methods depending on their moods - my sister and I are both bipolar, so I have a lot of experience in that respect. It makes parenting more difficult, but at the same time, the kid has to come first.

Now, sometimes sending a kid with ADD or ADHD to a corner for no more than ten minutes will work as a discipline method. But you have to be careful because the longer the kid stays there, the more apt they are to forget or get mad because they have to be moving. It's not a choice - it takes a lot of concentration and self-control to keep still, for someone with such a disorder. Usually more than a child has. Thus why I say physical discipline - one swat to the rear - is usually the best choice with a kid who has ADD or ADHD. It's quick, it's pointed, and if you start them young enough and do it only with something between your hand and their skin, it's more about the sound and shock value than the pain. (Prime example: I will never swat a kid in the tub or fresh out of it. I will tell them that they will be spanked when they get out if they're in the tub, and I will wrap them in a towel and then span them either way. Spanking wet skin only amplifies the pain and tends to breed resentment, which is counter productive almost always. Of course, if it takes more than a few seconds to get the kid in a towel, then I'd have to remind them why they're being spanked, but honestly that's something that usually needs to be clarified for some time anyway.) Belts I think are too much, as are willow switches - both of which were used on my mother, excessively, when she was a child. So I don't agree with using either; those items...something about using them seems to almost encourage excess use, which amounts to abuse, and I don't want to go there. I don't like seeing other people go there - and I've seen that, too, with belts. My mom had a leather belt, and when either her or my step dad went to get it, one of my brothers bawled.... And they were careful to never hit with the clasp, but the twins have always been adept at pushing tempers too far and getting in over their heads. Which...was not a good combination, considering they weren't disciplined enough early on and then were disciplined too much later. Though it does mean that I've learned from my parents' mistakes; I have no intention of waiting to start disciplining my own kids, when I have them. Start them when they're young and be consistent; it's the same as training a dog, in some ways. Dogs and kids are so much easier to train/raise when they're little, as opposed to when they're more grown up. And usually this needs to start about the time the teething starts, I think - maybe a little later, but no more than a few months or so. At least, in my opinion. (And I'm pretty opinionated about it; sorry if this offends anyone.)

My dad didn't believe in corporal punishment either; he'd just yell and snarl at any kid he caught doing something wrong. Worked on my sister because the man can sure verbally tear people apart with tone alone, but I lived with him and after I'd gotten used to it...well, all it did then was put my ears back and make me mad because he was being too loud. Also I saw him get mad for the wrong reasons fairly often, and that stirred my inborn protective side, so I learned that sometimes he needed to be brought up short by someone yelling right back in his face as to why he was being stupid. (I guilt tripped the hell out of him one time - and one of my grandpas.... My dad used to stuff his anger down and never let it out, so when he finally lost his temper it was explosive. Well, one time he exploded 'cause my grandpa accidentally knocked a portion of the fence over trying to back an RV into our yard - when the gate was only just barely wide enough for the RV to get through at all - and he and my grandpa, who didn't like each other because my grandpa was my dad's step dad and they had a lot of disagreements, well, they got into a fist fight in the driveway. *rolls eyes* My grandma and I tried to break them apart but they were two stubborn, angry guys determined to have at each other and they literally stepped on our toes as we tried to intervene. Didn't matter much to me - I was a sturdy little thing. But my grandma gets really painful corns on her toes, and ingrown nails, and so her feet are really painful anyway. And they stepped on them. So I had to help her into the RV so she could sit and rub her poor feet - and I excused myself and went back outside to be the manipulative little bitch I had to be. I yelled at them for being uncaring and stepping all over Grandma's feet, called them names that at any other point I'd have gotten in trouble for, and said that they were lucky the one person who'd driven by hadn't bothered to call the cops since they were fighting in plain sight of the public. All in all, I must say that I succeeded in stopping that fight very well; they came limping into the RV less than five minutes later, all contrite, and apologized before nursing their wounds.)

The family they see also make a difference as to how the kids should best be disciplined, though - I've seen evidence of this quite often. Part of the reason my dad's voice was effective as often as it was...is because he can go from a normal tone straight to drill sergeant mode. So loud and mean he'll make you jump - especially if he's behind you! - and between the loudness, the snarl in his tone, and his words themselves, the very least it ever did was pin someone's ears back. Usually it made people cringe, adults or children. This must apparently be a family trait, since my grandpa and I have it too. But yelling didn't work on me because I was around people who yelled too much; usually it only made me mad, even if I admitted that I deserved it. Spanking once I would tolerate, because hey, I figured I probably deserved that, but any more than one made me struggle and fight back, and oh man was I a little scrapper. Nobody could hold me if I wanted free badly enough, and if I'd kicked up enough of a fuss, probably my dog would have busted a window to come in and save me, so when that happened I was usually let go at once. One of the benefits of having a really good dog, especially if you leave your kid with babysitters. Of course, I was well behaved enough that my dad could leave me at home for hours and I'd just hang out with the dogs, watch TV, play with toys...climb around in the storage/guest room, which was a disaster area, but he didn't know about that and anyway that was only when I got really bored of everything else.... The discipline method I had the hardest time tolerating was my grandma's: sending me to a corner. She'd leave me there for at least half an hour, and sometimes she forgot I was there, because she ran a daycare. (Come to think of it, she's another reason yelling didn't work well with me. She got snarly at anyone who woke her up from her naps, would yell and be mean - and then come back later and apologize, because the only kids who woke her up from naps were my sister and me, and we didn't care since she'd always apologize. If she hadn't, we'd have eventually stopped waking her up. I remember one of her friends was about to get on a plane and wanted to talk to her, so I said I'd go wake her up. She'd yell at me, but I'd go wake her up. The guy sounded concerned and said that if I didn't that was okay, too, he'd just call her later. I told him, "I don't mind; she'll yell and be grumpy now but she'll come say sorry later, so it's really up to you. Do you want to talk to her now?" He said yes, she yelled at me but took the phone, and later on she came back and said sorry and that she was glad I'd woken her up. It just further emphasized that hey, it was okay to ignore people yelling at you. So much for yelling as discipline.)

In the end, the two methods that worked on me best were disappointment and that one swat. I seriously adore my grandpa because he holds true to these methods with every kid he deals with. Probably because when he and my grandma were together, they had a ton of foster kids - and neighbor kids that might as well have been foster kids. Not to mention he's been married (and divorced) three times, though never once was that over the kids. He's a very fair person - gives everyone a chance. Though woe for you if you overstep yourself around him; he's got a way with making sure lessons stick, to kids and especially to adults. I watched him nearly make a bank teller cry because the man had been rude to him throughout the transaction. Didn't even have to raise his voice, just was stern and laid out the whys and hows of what he thought should have happened. (I sat a ways behind my grandpa, waiting, and kept having to look away and bite my lip to keep from laughing out loud. That might've made the teller cry for real, and I didn't think he deserved to be that publicly humiliated; he'd already suffered a very pointed dressing down, and my grandpa had been a tad cruel for all his polite manners because he really has no respect for rude people.)

Anyway, between my dad's habit of yelling at me every time I got in trouble and my own ADHD, I've never been good at learning lessons from lectures. My parents never grounded me (except my dad after he got together with his current wife) from anything because that wasn't how my side of the family did things. Partly because I was a fairly quiet child, even if not necessarily always calm, but also because I was one of those really intelligent kids you could explain something to once and you wouldn't have a problem with after.

Once my dad got together with the hag his wife, they started the whole thing of grounding me - not to my room at first, because I had to share it - from seeing my dog, from reading, from visiting friends, from sleepovers. They never gave me extra chores (which would have been a better method with me than grounding was, because did I ever loathe them for grounding me from the things, people and pets I cared about) and I'm not sure why. Of course, probably part of the reason the grounding didn't work so well was because the hag that woman and I never did have anything resembling a good relationship and she was the one who most often handed out the punishments - in hindsight, it's a good thing she didn't try to spank me, because I'd have punched and kicked her and then found a way to get to my mom's and let her have at the woman, and the result wouldn't have been pretty. I'd have been okay with her handing out extra chores - she paid most of the bills at that point; my step dad handed out chores too, even though mostly he let my mom handle me. But the grounding - with no one else in my family grounding me, she'd have been better off if she'd taken a page from my grandma's book and told me to sit down and think about what I'd done. The only thing grounding did was piss me off.

And, okay, so I never would've been close to my dad's wife anyway, because we have almost nothing in common and have only laughed at the same things three times (and I've known her since I was in second grade, and that's more than fifteen years ago now). But if she'd taken into consideration that my family just didn't use grounding as a punishment on me, ever, we might at least have been civil and learned how to live in the same house without having spats at least twice a week. Of course, it would also have helped if I'd had more than 24 hours notice that I was suddenly going to be living with four people I didn't know - and sharing a room with two of them. But that one's on my dad entirely.

...now that I've wandered off topic and all over the methods of discipline (and I'm sorry, I didn't mean to do that), back on topic. Probably if there was an It Depends option, I'd have clicked that too. Mostly because spanking can so easily be turned into abuse. (There are reasons I'm an outspoken advocate of the one swat properly applied method. If it's meant to startle the child instead of hurt them, that one swat is plenty. Make it sound loud but not do more than sting - that's when it's most effective when they're toddlers and for the next few years after. And you can always test it on yourself to make sure; if it leaves a red mark on your skin, especially for more than thirty seconds to a minute, it's too hard for a child. Simple enough.) But I've also had the experience of the hag my dad's wife trying to mentally abuse me for almost nine years, and because of that - and because I've never been in danger of being physically abused, due to my family's protective tendencies - I'm of the opinion that mental abuse is in a lot of ways worse than phsyical abuse, in part because it can continue well after the child grows old enough to defend themselves. Certainly if I hadn't already been of a strong, sound mind (and had a support net consisting of the rest of my family and my friends), my dad's wife could well have succeeded in making me an obedient, adoring puppet like her kids were before my dad came along and freed them from mommy's apron strings. And my dad didn't have an easy time with them, either; he had to push them to try things, to be independent, and to believe in themselves. He and my step brother still don't get along because his methods were so harsh sometimes. (Whereas the methods he and his wife tried on me included reverse psychology and stupid things like stealing my stuff and then lying to me about it "to teach that lying can hurt the person you're lying to".... I lost all respect for them after that one. Particularly because I'd never stolen from them, so what was the sense in them stealing from me? ...I ranted about that one to everyone I talked to for some time, and every single one of them questioned the intelligence of the 'adults' involved.)

Essentially, from what I've seen, heard of from family and friends, and experienced, the methods that work best are the one swat and disappointment. Little kids in particular live to please - they want people they care about to be happy. It's so easy to teach a little kid how to be a decent person, and if you do it when they're that young, even if the teenagers act up, they'll tell you about it. Hell, I went out for a summer weekend to camp and drink with a cousin and some friends, and I kid you not, when I asked my mom if I could go and said there'd be alcohol, she said sure and actually encouraged me to go spend time with that cousin more often - and she's not the kind of parent to encourage her kids to drink. But she knew that if I was with him, either I'd look out for my cousin or he'd look after me. And my dad, from the time I hit about thirteen, flat told me (and each of my step siblings) that if I wanted to try drinking, try alcohol, all I had to do was ask and he'd let us, in the privacy of the house. Because at least if we were home, he could keep an eye on us and make sure things didn't get out of hand. (I never took him up on this offer, but one time he was grilling and spilled his beer and the older dog, Koda, lapped it up and got tipsy. Ever seen a tipsy Aussie? The female, Mokkie, kept trying to figure out if he was okay and barking at us that something was wrong. I 'bout died laughing.)

Edited November 6, 2012 by Cuzosu

[Ayato]

As a survivor of abuse talking about spanking makes me shudder. Whenever asked if spanking is abuse, that is what I automatically say. Yup, it is. Of course that's accompanied by me skittering away from the speaker and wondering if they're going to smack me...

But when I take the time to think about it, the view of the parents who have responded is sound. Used sparingly and properly a spank can be discipline.

On the other hand. Someone made comment that it might make a child go out onto the playground or future relationships and do the same thing. This is true, but the opposite is also true. My older brother is on the verge of becoming abusive, he has been like that his entire life. My younger brother will not fight or defend himself physically, though he gives off the tough guy attitude. Myself... I'm harmless until you hit me and then you'd best start running or make sure I don't get back up. When struck for the purpose of hurting me or "teaching" me, I become violent and will attack the abuser.

These roles that we've taken on are reflective of the treatment to spanking that we received from our father. My older brother, who suffered moderate physical abuse, sees it as a way to empower himself. My younger brother, who was severely abused, never sees it as an option. Myself. Well I can't actually make a claim on how physically abused I was but I don't see shoving other people around as empowering but that also goes towards other people, I'm not going to allow someone else to empower themselves by hurting me.

Three children from the same house and we all had different reactions to the abuse aspect of spanking. I've read reports and the like on abuse but it almost seems like you only hear about the ones who snap, or the ones who go on to be abusers. You don't hear about the walking time bombs and the quiet ones who keep to themselves because they aren't out there, hopping up and down saying "look at me, I'm from a broken home!"

Well... most of the time.

[DemonGoddess]

But when I take the time to think about it, the view of the parents who have responded is sound. Used sparingly and properly a spank can be discipline.

On the other hand. Someone made comment that it might make a child go out onto the playground or future relationships and do the same thing. This is true, but the opposite is also true. My older brother is on the verge of becoming abusive, he has been like that his entire life. My younger brother will not fight or defend himself physically, though he gives off the tough guy attitude. Myself... I'm harmless until you hit me and then you'd best start running or make sure I don't get back up. When struck for the purpose of hurting me or "teaching" me, I become violent and will attack the abuser.

Wow. Tough breaks there it sounds like. I digress.

I have to say, I was spanked as a child. I also spanked my own. However, it was LIMITED. Going back to something mentioned earlier by an ADHD person, yes, when you are this way, sometimes it TAKES a thwack to get your attention and make you realize that what it is you're doing is wrong. I'm also like this. So, I can tell you from my own personal experience that sometimes, no matter how reasonable my parents tried to be, or how many times they talked to me about something, I just ..ignored them. However, the spank got my attention, and made me listen to what they'd been fruitlessly telling me for awhile.

I had different reasons for not reacting with fighting back as a child. As the oldest, I was expected to NOT react in that manner with my younger sibs, no matter how provoked. You bet they provoked me, and OFTEN. My one sis would make it her goal in life to see how long it would take her to make me so mad I'd finally DO something. Of course, once I did, I got in trouble, because as the oldest, I was supposed to know better....(even though she is a year younger than I). In any case, there are many different reasons as to why someone will or will not fight back physically when confronted in the same vein as a child. For me, with my sibs, it was because I wasn't supposed to. However, with other kids, if they did, I'd let it go for so long before yes, I did fight back. But that's actually another topic, i.e. bullies.

[Cuzosu]

As a survivor of abuse talking about spanking makes me shudder. Whenever asked if spanking is abuse, that is what I automatically say. Yup, it is. Of course that's accompanied by me skittering away from the speaker and wondering if they're going to smack me...

But when I take the time to think about it, the view of the parents who have responded is sound. Used sparingly and properly a spank can be discipline.

On the other hand. Someone made comment that it might make a child go out onto the playground or future relationships and do the same thing. This is true, but the opposite is also true. My older brother is on the verge of becoming abusive, he has been like that his entire life. My younger brother will not fight or defend himself physically, though he gives off the tough guy attitude. Myself... I'm harmless until you hit me and then you'd best start running or make sure I don't get back up. When struck for the purpose of hurting me or "teaching" me, I become violent and will attack the abuser.

These roles that we've taken on are reflective of the treatment to spanking that we received from our father. My older brother, who suffered moderate physical abuse, sees it as a way to empower himself. My younger brother, who was severely abused, never sees it as an option. Myself. Well I can't actually make a claim on how physically abused I was but I don't see shoving other people around as empowering but that also goes towards other people, I'm not going to allow someone else to empower themselves by hurting me.

Three children from the same house and we all had different reactions to the abuse aspect of spanking. I've read reports and the like on abuse but it almost seems like you only hear about the ones who snap, or the ones who go on to be abusers. You don't hear about the walking time bombs and the quiet ones who keep to themselves because they aren't out there, hopping up and down saying "look at me, I'm from a broken home!"

Well... most of the time.

I can definitely understand your point with three siblings who all had different reactions to abuse - though in my case, the abuse was mental and not even happening in the same house. But my brothers are twins and while I suspect the younger twin will wind up mentally and possibly physically abusive (not a prospect I like, but I've seen flashes of these sides in him and I admit that if he weren't my brother I'd choose to have nothing to do with him), the older twin is so...blah...about everything that in the first place I don't know if he'll ever find someone to be with, but I just don't think he's got it in him to be as deliberately cruel or abusive as his twin - and I think if he realized he was being abusive, he'd be concerned and talk to his family (his dad and me, because he's not close to our mom) to see if we could figure out a way to help him stop. He's a decent person, except for the fact that when he opens his mouth - he doesn't even have to speak - you just want to punch him; he's that obnoxious and irritating.

It sounds trite, but I'm sorry you were abused - and your brothers, though I sympathize more with the one you said never sees violence as an option. Abuse isn't a good experience for anyone, I've seen enough to know that much. But the simple fact that you can be so - I want to say calm but I realize you're probably not - so...honest despite painful past experiences?...as to say that spanking used sparingly can be discipline...that makes me think you'll be fine, however long the healing process is. (In hindsight, reading back through this, I think I've come across as kind of egotistical, and that's not what I meant to do. But I just woke up and my brain isn't functioning quite well yet, and I can't think of better phrasing. So I'm sorry if my words are offensive.)

Wow. Tough breaks there it sounds like. I digress.

I have to say, I was spanked as a child. I also spanked my own. However, it was LIMITED. Going back to something mentioned earlier by an ADHD person, yes, when you are this way, sometimes it TAKES a thwack to get your attention and make you realize that what it is you're doing is wrong. I'm also like this. So, I can tell you from my own personal experience that sometimes, no matter how reasonable my parents tried to be, or how many times they talked to me about something, I just ..ignored them. However, the spank got my attention, and made me listen to what they'd been fruitlessly telling me for awhile.

I had different reasons for not reacting with fighting back as a child. As the oldest, I was expected to NOT react in that manner with my younger sibs, no matter how provoked. You bet they provoked me, and OFTEN. My one sis would make it her goal in life to see how long it would take her to make me so mad I'd finally DO something. Of course, once I did, I got in trouble, because as the oldest, I was supposed to know better....(even though she is a year younger than I). In any case, there are many different reasons as to why someone will or will not fight back physically when confronted in the same vein as a child. For me, with my sibs, it was because I wasn't supposed to. However, with other kids, if they did, I'd let it go for so long before yes, I did fight back. But that's actually another topic, i.e. bullies.

For some reason, I'm always surprised when I meet other ADHD people. And I'll be honest (and on subject): if my parents had given me a swat every time I repeated a mistake when I was younger, I probably would have learned a number of lessons sooner. For that matter, if my dad had tried giving me a swat instead of just yelling at me, probably he'd have had to yell a lot less. ...and then again, maybe not. Half the time he and I had our yelling matches, it was over him being mad at a relative or one of the dogs - and when he got mad at the dogs it was usually because he didn't want to admit that he was mad that he'd made a mistake and now had a mess to clean up. (Two words: Trash cans. Once also a lovely set of velvet antlers, because we gave the dogs antlers sometimes and it was in the older dog's reach.) I also intervened between him and my step sisters a number of times. My step brother would not have welcomed my interference, though, because he was older - and male. *rolls eyes* Men....

I was the older sibling, too. Part of why disappointment worked so well on me. I was supposed to be the example. The downside of this is, I think the younger twin has a major sister complex now (and since I mentioned it to him, my bf has become extremely...wary?...distrusting?...around the twin because he thinks it makes a lot of sense - and that kind of disturbs me and makes me wonder if there was something I could/should have done differently, but then he wouldn't have had a decent female influence), because I was more of a mother to them when I was able to be there than our own mother was - because she has after-rape and after-abuse issues, and almost all of her major trauma has been inflicted by guys. (Her sperm donor was/is a manipulative, abusive...person...and still alive last I heard, but she disowned him a long time ago. And her mother was never much of a maternal influence; my granny wasn't good with kids, especially little ones.) So my mom has never been a good mother in the little day to day things. Oh, she'll go rabid bitch on anyone who does wrong to her kids, don't get me wrong - in that she's a wonderful mother. But my brothers have never seen how much she cares for all of her kids, because she's not good at showing it. *sigh* One of the parenting mistakes that I'm going to do my best not to make. As much as I love my family, I don't want my kids turning out like my siblings or my parents. If they must turn out like family, I will do my best to see that they turn out either like my adopted sister or my grandpa. (I'd say like me or my bf, but I'm not sure I want to jinx myself. He did so many things behind his parents' backs, and I was/am so blunt that my father had no idea how to handle me.) So I'll use the one swat method, and I'll be disappointed, and I will raise my children with dogs and they will spend time with our extended family. And apart from that I guess I'll see when I get there.

[kagome26isawsome]

thank you all for your help with this debate! All of you made going points here and they will be used in my report in 3 weeks (keeps getting bumped back because people keep missing or quit coming to class). With me and my spanking, i will only use it if necessary to discipline the kids (if i have any). I will also only spank them on the butt 3 times and then tell them why i spanked them. I will not let my kids run around like the kids today (gosh i felt old typing that). They will learn right from wrong. My mom has told me that she will use the same technique she used on me and my sister if my kids act up at her house. would love some more feedback and more ideas for the paper if you are up to it! ALL are welcome to comment!

[botticelliangel]

good luck on your project kags!

[Cuzosu]

thank you all for your help with this debate! All of you made going points here and they will be used in my report in 3 weeks (keeps getting bumped back because people keep missing or quit coming to class). With me and my spanking, i will only use it if necessary to discipline the kids (if i have any). I will also only spank them on the butt 3 times and then tell them why i spanked them. I will not let my kids run around like the kids today (gosh i felt old typing that). They will learn right from wrong. My mom has told me that she will use the same technique she used on me and my sister if my kids act up at her house. would love some more feedback and more ideas for the paper if you are up to it! ALL are welcome to comment!

Glad we could help. Not sure there's points left to cover about spanking; at least I can't think of any at the moment. *shrug* The main thing is to limit the use and the number of spankings per misbehavior, so that it doesn't turn into abuse.

Honestly I find myself feeling old when I think about how kids these days are raised, too. People get all offended when I say a swat would do their kids a world of good, and one of my aunts has a pair of spoiled brats because she won't spank and won't let anyone else spank her kids, and I can only wonder how they think these kids are going to turn out. Especially with this trend towards rude behaviors nowadays. Probably part of why I - and you - feel old when talking about the kids these days is because I/we hold true to an older method of raising children, one that we know works, and we see what happens when it's not followed and should be. (Not that all kids need the physical discipline, but certainly a lot of them need at least a swat now and then.)

[J.Nathan Spears]

When was the day that spanking became nearly universally looked over the shoulder? I mean, I also want to know when was the date when the kids started to turn into spoiled brats.

I myself have 2 older sisters, of 42 and 38 years respectively

The oldest one has 3 children and I think she educates them with an Iron Fist. I fear that this possibly excessive disciplining turns them into resented and bitter adults. My oldest niece, 19 years old right now... I think she's kinda depressed. She looks pale and somewhat skinny, and is kinda anti-social. Still, I have not enough proof of it... I hope I'm just imaginating things

On the other side, my other sister has only a 11-year-old son, and well... he was given an PS2, and then a PS3, an Xbox and a Wii. I mean, 4 of the most expensive consoles! And well, I think my sister is just spoiling him. It also seems that he has some aphasia, so he behaves even more childish than normal.

I don't think I'll get a wife, or even a girlfriend, anytime soon... but I'm kinda afraid of becoming a father right now. It's sad, as it's true, that no man is born with parenting skills... and learning them from their parents can be sometimes detrimental.

Well, That's how I think right now

[Cuzosu]

When was the day that spanking became nearly universally looked over the shoulder? I mean, I also want to know when was the date when the kids started to turn into spoiled brats.

I myself have 2 older sisters, of 42 and 38 years respectively

The oldest one has 3 children and I think she educates them with an Iron Fist. I fear that this possibly excessive disciplining turns them into resented and bitter adults. My oldest niece, 19 years old right now... I think she's kinda depressed. She looks pale and somewhat skinny, and is kinda anti-social. Still, I have not enough proof of it... I hope I'm just imaginating things

On the other side, my other sister has only a 11-year-old son, and well... he was given an PS2, and then a PS3, an Xbox and a Wii. I mean, 4 of the most expensive consoles! And well, I think my sister is just spoiling him. It also seems that he has some aphasia, so he behaves even more childish than normal.

I don't think I'll get a wife, or even a girlfriend, anytime soon... but I'm kinda afraid of becoming a father right now. It's sad, as it's true, that no man is born with parenting skills... and learning them from their parents can be sometimes detrimental.

Well, That's how I think right now

I'd like to know dates on this stuff, too.

Yes, over-the-top discipline is...well, to my mind, more abuse than discipline, and I've seen how my mom and step dad went from too little to too much with my brothers...and it just flat didn't work. Now they're spoiled almost-twenty-year-old brats and it's going to take a hard knock to bring them to their senses.

I can understand why you're so wary of becoming a father--but just because your parents and/or your siblings made parenting mistakes doesn't mean you have to make the same ones. And if you ever want advice, there are plenty of us here to talk to. Parenting is really a work in progress, anyway, and the main thing is to find a person you want to share that experience with. (Which is not to say that your tastes in--women, I presume?--don't matter, because they do.)

[DemonGoddess]

I promise, everyone makes parenting mistakes. There are no exceptions to that.