Assholes, douchebags and arrogant twits as characters

[Shadowknight12]

I have noticed, in some stories, a tendency for readers to praise the appearance of a complete asshole as a character. And I'm not saying that they enjoy seeing him/her get their just desserts, I'm saying that they recognize that the character is an utter douchebag and they like the story *because* of this and not *in spite* of it. You know the kind of character I mean, the one we all know couldn't get laid IRL even you gave them a handful of roofies, but in stories everyone falls head over heels for them. I fail to understand how being mistreated and considered inferior is a turn on in any way. Or, for example, how an allegedly sane, normal character suddenly goes 'hey, I should totally fuck this person who's totally disrespecting me!' Or, the trite excuse that is only a smidgen more plausible than the others: 'sure, she might be a bitch, but she's really hot and awesome in bed.' Seriously? That's their excuse for putting up with her? Wow. Here, random character, have a nickel and go buy yourself a spine. And what's worse, some people seem to genuinely think that this attitude is actually 'confidence' and praise it as a good thing. I'm not going to go into details on that, because it's a whole other can of worms.

I'll be honest: This disturbs me. It disturbs me in the same way people filming a train wreck or car crash, instead of rushing to help or calling 911, disturb me. It's the kind of behavior I cannot wrap my mind around. My lack of comprehension needs to be remedied.

So here I am, in the forums, asking any kind passer-bys to please explain to me how these people's brains work. Do tell me, I'm all eyes and ears. What makes you interested in this kind of people? How do you feel about this behavior, what parts of it appeal to you? Do you feel personally attracted to them or do you simply find it amusing/original/refreshing/daring/other? Do you believe that a story is automatically improved by the addition of a character such as this one?

Anything at all that you feel can shed some light into this puzzling phenomenon will be more than welcome.

[DemonGoddess]

Well, I don't get it either. But then again, I don't write so I have no idea what sparks certain types of character development for writers as plot devices.

[Asexual Biped]

Well, I know that for slash stories, since most of those authors are screaming yaoi fangirls, they get their ideas from yaoi. There are A LOT of those douche characters in yaoi plots that have everyone falling head over heels for them, including the pathetic main character(unless they, themselves, are the main character, but that's pretty rare). Those same fans tend to forget that the story lines they read from this genre are from Japan, where they have a completely different social upbringing from those of us in the U.S. (I would mention the rest of the western world, but I've never been anywhere else, so I'm not going to speak for them.)

Japan is all about the community. They're brought up to think about the good of the whole, completely different from the individualistic upbringing of nearly every American out there. They use there writing and games and tv to express urges that wouldn't be acceptable in public. EVER. Most yaoi fans don't take this into consideration when they read the unrealistic plots and characters. And they don't take into consideration the culture that writes them.

Now, I don't want to make any excuses for these slash writers. I'm an avid yaoi fangirl myself, but I know the difference between the U.S. and Japan and what's usually accepted in literature. (Of course, since it's pretty hard to find homoerotic literature out there, I'm no expert on our stuff either.) These specific slash writers just go with what they see often and don't think that, maybe, they have a gross misunderstanding of what's normal in literature.

For any other genre, I have no clue. Maybe the same idea? But I kind of doubt that.

[ApolloImperium]

Funnily enough, there is a reality outside of fiction behind people willing to date/fuck assholes/bitches/etc. Look at frats and sororities. 'Nuff said.

There is psychology behind it all. There are a number of blogs that are devoted to it - It's called Game. And it works, over and over and over again. It goes back to the concept of Alpha, Beta and Omega males. I've read alot in regards to it and it never ceases to amaze me what women fall for...They call themselves seduction experts. Ugh!

If you wanna read a blog that has such a variety of asshole moves that women fall for check out The Real Assanova. This guy is a king at Asshole Game and gets laid often for it. If even 1/2 of what he says is true, then it saddens me what women have come to.

[Shadowknight12]

Well, I don't get it either. But then again, I don't write so I have no idea what sparks certain types of character development for writers as plot devices.

Well, an opinion as a reader is welcome too! I'm actually more surprised by the positive reactions of the readers than by the fact that assholes are being written. I mean, the writer knows why the character is an asshole, but the readers don't, hence their liking surprises me.

Well, I know that for slash stories, since most of those authors are screaming yaoi fangirls, they get their ideas from yaoi. There are A LOT of those douche characters in yaoi plots that have everyone falling head over heels for them, including the pathetic main character(unless they, themselves, are the main character, but that's pretty rare). Those same fans tend to forget that the story lines they read from this genre are from Japan, where they have a completely different social upbringing from those of us in the U.S. (I would mention the rest of the western world, but I've never been anywhere else, so I'm not going to speak for them.)

Japan is all about the community. They're brought up to think about the good of the whole, completely different from the individualistic upbringing of nearly every American out there. They use there writing and games and tv to express urges that wouldn't be acceptable in public. EVER. Most yaoi fans don't take this into consideration when they read the unrealistic plots and characters. And they don't take into consideration the culture that writes them.

Now, I don't want to make any excuses for these slash writers. I'm an avid yaoi fangirl myself, but I know the difference between the U.S. and Japan and what's usually accepted in literature. (Of course, since it's pretty hard to find homoerotic literature out there, I'm no expert on our stuff either.) These specific slash writers just go with what they see often and don't think that, maybe, they have a gross misunderstanding of what's normal in literature.

For any other genre, I have no clue. Maybe the same idea? But I kind of doubt that.

Hmmm, possibly. I agree with you on that, the typical yaoi seme needs a good punch in the face 99% of the time. Though I can't comment on Japanese culture since I'm woefully unfamiliar with it. I currently have two pet theories, neither of which is completely satisfying. One, that people are shallow (since IRL asshole personalities are usually associated with good looks) and seeing a douchebag character triggers social conditioning, therefore perceiving the character as attractive and likeable; and/or two, that people are spineless, and that bitch/asshole personalities make relationships easy for those who just want sex and/or someone who makes all the decisions for them and demands little in return but submission.

Funnily enough, there is a reality outside of fiction behind people willing to date/fuck assholes/bitches/etc. Look at frats and sororities. 'Nuff said.

There is psychology behind it all. There are a number of blogs that are devoted to it - It's called Game. And it works, over and over and over again. It goes back to the concept of Alpha, Beta and Omega males. I've read alot in regards to it and it never ceases to amaze me what women fall for...They call themselves seduction experts. Ugh!

If you wanna read a blog that has such a variety of asshole moves that women fall for check out The Real Assanova. This guy is a king at Asshole Game and gets laid often for it. If even 1/2 of what he says is true, then it saddens me what women have come to.

Interesting point. I had heard of that, yes, but it's thankfully rare where I come from. Here, if a guy is a douche but hot, the girl will put up with him because she wants to get laid (and the relationship will continue only until she gets bored of him), or he's going to have to toe the line between charmingly cocky and disgustingly arrogant to keep her around. I think that this might stem from the fact that women aren't encouraged to being pursuers in a relationship, because although nowadays women KNOW that sex is pleasurable, society discourages them from actively going out to get some (calling them sluts and whores if they do so) and the asshole preys upon this to get laid (in that blog you linked, just from looking at the first few articles, you can tell that the guy is using basic exploitative psychology). Or that's what I believe, anyway.

[ApolloImperium]

Interesting point. I had heard of that, yes, but it's thankfully rare where I come from. Here, if a guy is a douche but hot, the girl will put up with him because she wants to get laid (and the relationship will continue only until she gets bored of him), or he's going to have to toe the line between charmingly cocky and disgustingly arrogant to keep her around. I think that this might stem from the fact that women aren't encouraged to being pursuers in a relationship, because although nowadays women KNOW that sex is pleasurable, society discourages them from actively going out to get some (calling them sluts and whores if they do so) and the asshole preys upon this to get laid (in that blog you linked, just from looking at the first few articles, you can tell that the guy is using basic exploitative psychology). Or that's what I believe, anyway.

Where do you live that it's not common? I see it all to often both at home bars as well as when I visit friends in other places.

And yes, he uses exploitative psychology, but that's how assholes get women to fall for them... They play off weaknesses, vanity, etc to get attention. And since women love attention....

[Danyealle]

There is that old theory of the 'bad boy' and how girls just fall for them left and right. Unfortunately, it turns out to be true much of the time. The more of a snarky asshole you are, the more you tend to get females dying to date you and spread their legs. I think, honestly, it's something you have to grow out of and learn that you deserve better. But, sadly, many never do. Look at the legions of women that fall all over serial killers (Richard Rameriez-the Night Stalker, got married in prison, Ted Bundy fathered a child in prison, the list goes on and on) and people like Scott Peterson and the Menendez brothers. They have more women than they know what to do with despite the fact that they are stone cold killers and not what any beings would deem nice people. It's a similar vein of thought process there.

[Shadowknight12]

Where do you live that it's not common? I see it all to often both at home bars as well as when I visit friends in other places.

And yes, he uses exploitative psychology, but that's how assholes get women to fall for them... They play off weaknesses, vanity, etc to get attention. And since women love attention....

Heh, can't you see that sort of thing with your admin status? I remember that in my days as a global mod in another forum, we used to run IP checks all the time, and that sort of info cropped up immediately on the WHOIS query search.

You know what dawned on me as I read that blog's articles? It's not about the sex. It's like a sport, a competition between other guys who play the game. I think this spawned from the moment one guy finally scored the hottest girl in the room, fucked her and realized it wasn't all it's cranked up to be. And with society telling him that this should be teh bestest thing eva, it soon became obvious that something new had to appear in the dating scene to make all this effort worthwhile. And thus the competition was born. And how do they get new participants, as the jaded fuckers quit? They convince others that indeed, by mastering the game they'll get any chick they want and that it's the best thing ever. Then one day I imagine it must dawn on them that the only truly 'exciting' thing about the entire business is to show off how many girls you've scored and how high up the scale they were. Or at least this is what I get from those articles. There's never a "she was into a lot of kinky stuff" or "she liked anal," there's "she was a 10" and "I got into this group of friends, turned them against each other and scored the hottest one."

Actually, I think what the guy advocates is to give them a smidgen of true attention (not the kind most guys are used to giving out, which is the head-nodding, glazed-eyes, totally-imagining-you-naked kind, but actual focused attention), then taking it away and making the woman work for it, hence tilting the balance of power in his favor. But this is pure speculation.

There is that old theory of the 'bad boy' and how girls just fall for them left and right. Unfortunately, it turns out to be true much of the time. The more of a snarky asshole you are, the more you tend to get females dying to date you and spread their legs. I think, honestly, it's something you have to grow out of and learn that you deserve better. But, sadly, many never do. Look at the legions of women that fall all over serial killers (Richard Rameriez-the Night Stalker, got married in prison, Ted Bundy fathered a child in prison, the list goes on and on) and people like Scott Peterson and the Menendez brothers. They have more women than they know what to do with despite the fact that they are stone cold killers and not what any beings would deem nice people. It's a similar vein of thought process there.

Yeah, a part of me wants to believe that those women are being crafty and hoping to score on the killer's assets once he gets fried. At least that's something I could understand. Because then it'd be like a reverse predation, getting a small revenge on that motherfucker. The woman goes after the guy who's been locked up for life with no kind of sexual release, and uses that to manipulate him to her advantage. Now THAT would be smart. But no, I imagine that if the woman bears him a child, she's not doing it for the money (since that's completely unnecessary if the guy agrees to marry her).

I know that there's a lot of insecure people out there, but holy fucking mother of shit, this has to have reached pandemic levels. If you try your luck with a convict because your twisted mind tells you that THIS is the way to inject excitement into your dreadfully boring life, then go see a psychiatrist NOW. Excitement is not the sort of thing you get by making a token effort to get some asshole's attention and spreading your legs for them. Excitement, like all the good things in life, is something you have to WORK for.

This reminds me of this webcomic I read that's been recently depicting a verbally and physically abusive relationship (though it's consensual... I think) and just a few minutes ago I've decided to stop reading the comments section, since it's full of people wishing they could have that same kind of relationship. Granted, some of them (like me) say that they like the dynamic because it's entertaining and it's interesting to see how it's going to unfold within the comic's larger plot, but some people actually want to be in the abused person's place, and find the assailant hot (did I mention that he was a hired killer, to boot? Yeah...) and would totally spread their legs for him at the drop of a hat. Fucking fuckers fuck.

EDIT: I take offense at the snarky asshole bit! I consider myself one (hey, we all deal with human stupidity in our own way!), and consider these lame fuckers as a stain on our reputation.

[DemonGoddess]

Okay, the IP thing. Sure, I can get information from IP addresses, where I need to. But, unless it's for something I have to do, normally I won't bother to look. I'd say the same goes for anyone else with that access.

I think Danyealle is right on the "bad boy" thing. Although I'm happy to say that that has never been a factor for me, personally. At least when I was a single person, and dating. I always figured if someone was going to treat me poorly, why in hell do I want to take things further? Then there are the for instances where a person's "true colors" don't show up until AFTER one is involved with them. My answer to that was ....good bye. Don't need the aggravation nor the poor treatment.

[Danyealle]

I take offense at the snarky asshole bit! I consider myself one (hey, we all deal with human stupidity in our own way!), and consider these lame fuckers as a stain on our reputation.

LMAO! One snarky asshole to another, i agree but it needs to be taken in context. Let's face it, to deal with reality we all need to be snarky assholes to an extent, some of us have just lifted to a higher art form than the moronicus stupidic's we are talking about that pull these stunts.

[Shadowknight12]

Okay, the IP thing. Sure, I can get information from IP addresses, where I need to. But, unless it's for something I have to do, normally I won't bother to look. I'd say the same goes for anyone else with that access.

Ah, I see.

I think Danyealle is right on the "bad boy" thing. Although I'm happy to say that that has never been a factor for me, personally. At least when I was a single person, and dating. I always figured if someone was going to treat me poorly, why in hell do I want to take things further? Then there are the for instances where a person's "true colors" don't show up until AFTER one is involved with them. My answer to that was ....good bye. Don't need the aggravation nor the poor treatment.

Yeah, see, that's something logical and sane. I can't really compute a deviation from that reasoning. I mean, there can't be THAT many masochistic people out there.

LMAO! One snarky asshole to another, i agree but it needs to be taken in context. Let's face it, to deal with reality we all need to be snarky assholes to an extent, some of us have just lifted to a higher art form than the moronicus stupidic's we are talking about that pull these stunts.

Hah! Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, when I'm a complete asshole to you, it's because you've done something to deserve it. Maybe you were really stupid, maybe you shoved a pregnant woman to get the last cab on a rainy day. Either way, there's a reason you're getting the verbal hose and if you were a smart person, you'd use that to avoid making the same mistake in the future. Hence why this behaviour bothers me. What's the deal? What makes people disregard common sense like that? What's so cool about the bad boy, other than a really lazy way to get excitement?

[RogueMudblood]

What's so "cool" about the bad boy

• The lure of the forbidden. It's something you're supposed to stay away from. "Momma said no" kinda thing.
  
• James Dean.
  
• Fonzy
  
• Tom Cruise in Top Gun (face it, he's an ass in that movie)
  

I think you got part of it right with North American social conditioning. Just like many women believe they're only attractive if they have flat stomachs - even after having kids. (Frankly, you wouldn't have had more than the first if he didn't still find you attractive.)

Maybe it's a control thing. The author gets to control the douche in the story that they can't control in their life. As for the reader...

I think it's like in Invisible Man; one of the characters (a white woman) asks the main character (a black man) to "rape" her - she wants a controlled forbidden situation. They (the "I-want-to-be-abused" people) don't know what's outside their bubble, and they want to explore it. With the fiction, it's a "what if" - with the "asshat game" it's more of a "I know he'll toss me aside when we're done and now I know what all the fuss is about".

But then, some people like being treated that way sexually. That's their kink.

(Sorry for all being from the female perspective, as I know there are just as many "bitch" stories where the guy is the lameass loser, but ... I can't give you anything from a male perspective.)

[wanderingaddict]

hah, I've found that this pretty much takes place along gender lines. my pal Fawnheart, for instance, is an amazing writer. the characters she creates interact with each other the way real people would, not the way she wants them to or typical archetypes would, or anything else. she is, hands down, one of the best authors I have ever read in terms of character portrayal and development. but...

she has horrible taste in reading (and Fawnikins, if you read this, I'm sorry, but frankly it's true!). I mean, a lot of the stories she recommends to me I just stare at, my face twitching with anger/rage at how much of an asshole the seme/male love interest is.

see, the difference in the two genders is that women tend to look at problems from an emotional-relational perspective, and at the overall whole, whereas men walk into a story and look at the individual details and the individual persons first. to add to that, men and women tend (and I mean this simply as a general tendency) to view sex differently as well, with men "compartmentalizing" sex as a physical act (more often than not) and as something that's relatively separate from love. that's not to say that men do not ever associate sex with love, or use sex as an act of love, but just that they more readily separate the two than women do. women, on the other hand, for a thousand social, evolutionary, and biological reasons, have a tendency to view sex as- while perhaps not the ultimate act- but a very clear act of love and interest. again, that's not to say that they can't separate the two either, or not have casual sex or anything, but more that they will simply tend to associate sex with the implication of love, unlike men.

so my dear friend Fawnikins walks into a story about some mean vampire guy having a lot of sex with his human/wereanimal/whatever slave, and is like "oh look! this ultra hot guy is boning the fuck outta his slave! the author has written several times that they're in love! they MUST be in love! this is awesome and cool!" but then I walk in, look at the story, and I'm just like "... this isn't love. the guy belittles the slave, clearly has no respect for him/her, doesn't care about his/her wishes, and generally is an all around unlikable douche (mostly to the slave, but often to the other characters of the story as well)."

to me, looking at the specific details of the interactions in the story, it's clear that there's no love. there's nothing like mutual respect, or acceptance, or even interest. the asshole doesn't care to get to know the thoughts of the slave, appreciate the slave's nonsexual qualities, acknowledge the slave as an independent person, etc. the slave is nothing but a glorified cum receptacle. "now addict" you caw, shrieking in defense of your vampire story, "you're overgeneralizing! this slave is different! the vampire master knows that if the slave really wanted, the slave could totally win a fight with the vampire so he clearly has respect for the stronger slave here!"

to which I would say "no" and maybe smack you across the face (lightly). the vampire doesn't respect the slave, he respects his strength. as in singular attribute, not the actual person who possesses that attribute. the same is generally true of all asshole stories- the asshole respects the person's looks/ability to turn into a slut once some cock is in them, but they don't actually respect the person themselves.

female readers/writers, in my experience, rarely pull themselves out from the idea of the 'relationship' to examine the story in terms of the two individual characters. they don't realize that the hot guy, the totally super-awesome badass that they all lust over isn't interested in the slave for anything other than the slave's ability to suck his cock. they may try to justify their story later with things like "oooh, but nooo! the vampire totally LOVES the slave's mind and really values the slave's thoughts and opinions!" ... except they don't ever actually show that, so instead the story just goes on some more with lame asshole antics.

so yeah. in my experience, it pretty much falls almost exclusively along gender lines. which is really too bad, because it can be devastating for a male reader who likes strong female characters to get to the end of a story, where the strong and powerful female lead meets the one guy, this one ultra asshole, who even though he's not as smart, interesting, or cool as she is, still sets her vagina afire and reduces her to a quivering mess for no reason other than that... he tells her what to do? haha, I dunno. women like to write about assholes dominating them (partly because it's taboo, etc.) and women like to read about it, which is why some very, very horribly-stupid-on-every-level stories get published. like Twilight.

if anything, it's the equivalent of the way a lotta male stories inevitably involve one or more male characters falling for a utter bitch/gold digger because she's got a nice pair of tits and a cute face. it's just that the media has shown that trope a thousand times over and over and everyone knows that men are stupid and dumb, but it's sometimes jarring to see that women can fall prey to the same traps too.

[Asexual Biped]

You're very right, wanderingaddict, about the female/emotion thing. And I want to argue that not all females are like that, but I can't. At least, not well, considering I only have a small sample of women who think logically (including myself) to go by.

Going specifically on the slave example (or truth), I think that's not just female's gushing over sex=love. It's also that VERY few people can do a M/s story correctly, which saddens me. I LOVE M/s stories, but I'm turned off of them for now since, like, NO ONE can do a good one (excluding pittwitch)! D:

Speaking as a female: Not all of us always like the typical female/male falling in love with dominating, sex-addicted, asshole/partner. Granted, I do enjoy these every now and then, but I mostly enjoy when a story is well-written, the plot makes sense, and the characters are realistic.

I think the main problem is that most of the writers that those types of stories are brain-washed by the media to believe that all, or most, relationships are like that, or that it's acceptable. I also think that many of them are fresh out of high school and haven't had a real relationship, getting most of their research from books, movies, tv, and elsewhere.

[Danyealle]

I think the main problem is that most of the writers that those types of stories are brain-washed by the media to believe that all, or most, relationships are like that, or that it's acceptable. I also think that many of them are fresh out of high school and haven't had a real relationship, getting most of their research from books, movies, tv, and elsewhere.

I'm agreeing there. It takes some time and maturing to learn this. Speaking from experience, as an example, I used to think that Romeo and Juliet was like the most romantic story ever written. As someone with a bit more time and experience under her belt, I realize it's not and I'm actually rather disgusted by it and how some people think death is the solution to being without someone you love. Many times you outgrow this kind of thing with experience but, sadly, some never do.

And I also agree with the fact that D/s, M/s, whatever you want to call it, stories that are well written are hard to come by. The relationship in those aren't, in reality, what most portray them as in stories. There is a major trust issue involved in them that very rarely is shown in the stories. And the top isn't just doing it to be a complete and utter asshole. It's far more involved and complex than that but most can't seem to get that across in a story.

[Shadowknight12]

Wow, awesomely insightful posts, people. This has got me thinking, apparently my perceptions are rather skewed. I honestly thought that the things you people are expounding on (Bad boy = allure of the forbidden, women thinking that sex = love, wanting the asshole to see what the fuzz is about, etc) were a thing of the past, or perhaps only the purview of naïve teens (which one assumes, and I strongly, heavily emphasize the word 'assumes,' are mostly absent from this site). I pretty much assumed that once you emerge from a sheltered childhood (which is the typical kind of childhood), you see the world for what it truly is and so this kind of thing shouldn't happen. I guess I was sadly, perhaps even hilariously, mistaken?

I mean, this is the kind of thing I get from mindless teenagers (though not all teenagers are like this, of course), but not from alleged adults. To me, the moment you hit 18, you're an adult and you ought to start acting like one. Romanticizing abuse (of any kind) is not the adult thing to do. Attaching feelings to just any type of sex is a recipe for heartbreak, which simple observation of the people around you should tell you. The bad boy is called bad for a reason. You're going to get hurt. And if you do, in fact, get hurt when you knew full well what was going to happen, you deserve it for being such an idiot. I mean, the logic is pretty obvious to me, where the hell do these people get lost? Aren't they paying attention to what happens to others? Do they think it's not going to happen to them?

One thing I *do* get, however, is the FAKE abuse thing during sex. If you and your partner are in a normal relationship, but every Friday night you decide to roleplay a noncon situation, that's fine by me because it's all an act. The safe word is spoken and bam, everything goes back to normal. So yeah, that's probably the ONLY time I can totally get the whole D/s, M/s, BDSM kind of thing. Because it's just a kink two sane people indulge in, knowing full well it'd be wrong if they actually meant it. Sort of like rapefics on this site when they're written by normal folks. Most of the time (and once again, I emphasise the word 'most') it's just a harmless fantasy. It's like portraying a rapist in a show, that doesn't mean that the actor actually goes around raping people on his spare time. Same thing goes for kinky sex. Some people get off on being spanked, some really like to be held down and slapped around, physically or verbally, during sex, some people like doing the holding and the slapping. I'm not going to judge them, we all have our turn ons. The important thing is that it's consensual and any asshole/abusive behaviour is faked for the enjoyment of both parties.

Now, about the gender thing, this is one of the things that surprised me the most, that apparently women still think the same way they did 20-something years ago. Haven't we moved on as a society since then? Do women still think that a sexual relationship necessarily means anything other than oh, I don't know... a relationship of a sexual nature? That sex actually means anything in and of itself? Might as well try and find meaning in breathing, eating or scratching an itch. I mean, anything can mean anything as long as two or more people agree on it. If you disagree with that assignation of meaning, nobody's going to kill you or chew you out, most of us don't live in that kind of society anymore. If you want to give sex your own meaning, go ahead! It's what you're supposed to do. But then again, that would imply THINKING and we all know that's a bad, bad thing.

I will agree with you all on blaming the media. After all, we need a scapegoat and they're pretty dastardly. Though they're giving people what they (think they) want, so maybe they ARE to blame. The message, disturbingly, seems to be "Hey, it's okay to be stupid, because we're all stupid and not being part of the herd is badwrong. You don't want to die alone, don't you? Come and be stupid with us."

A stray thought that came to me: Do writers write about assholes and swear that they love their abused partners because they want to believe that the same thing can happen IRL? It does echo the archetypical abuse victim defending their abuser, though. It chills me to think that these people might hold these irrational conceptions because stories have assured them beyond all doubt that it is possible to look into a douchebag's soul, cast Detect Love and find solid proof that their behaviour is just their way of showing they care. Blargh. Excuse me for a moment while I retch.

An aside on strong female characters: MORE PLEASE. And more strong characters in general. Enough with the little bitches that get trampled all over like a doormat. Don't go to the other extreme and write a story solely consisting of assholes (amusing as that sounds), because then it's just the equivalent of injecting yourself with antifreeze. It might sound like a ton of fun, but we all know it ends painfully. Just try to write real characters. It's not easy, but hey, why should it be? Just observe the people around you and let your characters do what comes natural to them.

I laughed when I first read Romeo and Juliet as a preteen, thinking it was a satire on romance. Then it hit me, days later, that it was written BEFORE that attitude became prevalent and that people were actually taking that shit seriously even today. I think that was one of my first facepalms.

And finally, yes, M/s and D/s relationships, when they're not just a kink but an actual 'lifestyle' (and I use that term loosely because the right word eludes me), are incredibly complex and full of nuances that justify why they behave that way. Which, once again, requires research, observation and thinking to pull off correctly. Oh, and practice. But then again, pretty much everything requires practice.

[Asexual Biped]

I'm agreeing there. It takes some time and maturing to learn this. Speaking from experience, as an example, I used to think that Romeo and Juliet was like the most romantic story ever written. As someone with a bit more time and experience under her belt, I realize it's not and I'm actually rather disgusted by it and how some people think death is the solution to being without someone you love. Many times you outgrow this kind of thing with experience but, sadly, some never do.

Even though I was the one who wrote about the 'no experience' thing, I honestly have very little myself, being completely uninterested. But I make up for it by observing people and using my brain to figure things out.

I honestly thought that the things you people are expounding on (Bad boy = allure of the forbidden, women thinking that sex = love, wanting the asshole to see what the fuzz is about, etc) were a thing of the past, or perhaps only the purview of naïve teens. I pretty much assumed that once you emerge from a sheltered childhood (which is the typical kind of childhood), you see the world for what it truly is and so this kind of thing shouldn't happen. I guess I was sadly, perhaps even hilariously, mistaken?

To me, the moment you hit 18, you're an adult and you ought to start acting like one.

This goes back to the media thing: because of what we see on the t.v., children are now being conditioned to think that that's how life is once you escape the confines of your parents. They think that they'll get everything without trying hard: money, good jobs, sexy partners, great relationships, and that nothing bad will ever happen to them. It's less that it's left over from the past.

Now, about the gender thing, this is one of the things that surprised me the most, that apparently women still think the same way they did 20-something years ago. Haven't we moved on as a society since then?

Actually, and this is just my thought, women from back in the day were less likely to think that. And this also leads back to the media, and people not thinking for themselves. It's the thought that "Oh, I don't have to work for anything. I can get a guy to fall in love with me and do the money-making while I go shopping!"

Now, not all girls/people now think like that (at least I hope they don't), but it's the American impatience and demand for instant gratification(If you live somewhere else, my assumption doesn't apply to you).

And finally, yes, M/s and D/s relationships, when they're not just a kink but an actual 'lifestyle' (and I use that term loosely because the right word eludes me), are incredibly complex and full of nuances that justify why they behave that way. Which, once again, requires research, observation and thinking to pull off correctly. Oh, and practice. But then again, pretty much everything requires practice.

You're right, it is a lifestyle by that point. It's ALL about trust, more-so than normal relationships. And it's one I want to see written about more! CORRECTLY! DX

[ApolloImperium]

Wow this topic exploded!

A lot of interesting posts put up and I agree with a lot of the information brought up.

If anyone wants to read other blogs that deal with the same topics, I can post a few that I view on a regular basis. It's rather interesting to watch it all.

[kisakimiko]

I don't agree with all of the gender qualifiers. I think they are pretty broad brushed. I also don't think that because a story is more romantic in nature that it need be filled with unrealistic dream images of the perfect mate.

I think a good M/s, D/s, BDSM (or any) story shows the trust and interest the characters have for each other. For me a character (male or female) that is all bad can not be believable as the romantic interest. People do not change, and if there is no seed of compassion in a character the 'love' of a good partner is just one sided and delusional. I don't think this is any different for any kind of story involving sex. I can not speak to the yaoi genre I am woefully uneducated about it, and bewildered by the fact that it collects young female fans.

On a personal level, I can not imagine even wanting a one nighter that was such a colossal asshat. It is too much fun to tell those types no. Even more fun if they are riding on their looks as an excuse to be an ass. SOME of us were taught to look at other facets of beauty... even if I just want that beauty for kicks only. How is it going to be a kick if the person is pleasing to the eye but repugnant otherwise? Looking for abuse that is not created in consent is just a lil twisted to me. I don't care if it is emotional or physical.

Is it just the fact that it is twisted the draw? Very interesting subject.

[Calanthee]

Come on Now, don't tell me, you guys, never had a dark smirking amused turned on crush on the over the top, intelligent but evil badass villain... who constantly behaves like a ruthless bastard and will do anything to get his/her own way and achieve his own malicious agenda???

In the "Silence of the Lambs" Hannibal Lecter is one of my absolute favorites: Nothing like a good bad guy I say! Truth be told he made me laugh, while my friends hide behind their hands.

It's not just a Japanese Yaoi thing...What would Star Wars be without Darth and Harry Potter with their villains. But what is with the Japanese and their heavy metal fetish for huge powerfull Robot/cibernetic characters who like to blow things and each other up

... now that confuses me???

Personally I find it most amusing and satisfying to write and create an evil badass character LOL you can let out all your dark evil inhabitions out. Call me bad but I dig it!

But a stupid brainless Jerk is another story, we deal with those on a daily basis in real life...they're not even close to being sexy or a little bit amusing.

Just my opinion, so what's yours, Calanthee the Assassen

PS By the way, sometimes the constantly good guys are just plain boring!

[MorbidFantasy]

I lolled at the topic, not in a bad way tho.

IMO, assholes make better characters because they're 1. easier to write/read without coming off as cheesy, unlike gentlemen or romantic characters and 2. when everyone plays nice in a story, it makes for a boring story.

I've come to terms with the fact that I'll probably never (again) write a male character that is not completely unlikeable and a prick in everything they do. Honestly, it's one of the reasons that I write N/C fics, because while I can't bring myself to create nice guys (for some reason I cringe whenever I try to describe a nice dude, usually comes off as cheesy), I can't fathom my female character being attracted to the assholes and reprobates that I pen, so end up making the story an N/C. Of course that's not the main reason I write N/C, but it's part of it.

[Calanthee]

I lolled at the topic, not in a bad way tho.

IMO, assholes make better characters because they're 1. easier to write/read without coming off as cheesy, unlike gentlemen or romantic characters and 2. when everyone plays nice in a story, it makes for a boring story.

I've come to terms with the fact that I'll probably never (again) write a male character that is not completely unlikeable and a prick in everything they do. Honestly, it's one of the reasons that I write N/C fics, because while I can't bring myself to create nice guys (for some reason I cringe whenever I try to describe a nice dude, usually comes off as cheesy), I can't fathom my female character being attracted to the assholes and reprobates that I pen, so end up making the story an N/C. Of course that's not the main reason I write N/C, but it's part of it.

Go for it dude whatever makes you happy, besides you can use what you learn in the process of creating said badasses... to channel your own dark inner angst against the pricks of world that give you shit in real life and give'em some back. Good guy finish last, Evil Cal the assassin!

[Calanthee]

So nice guys can't be anything but boring? That's a sad thing to think.

Just over-exaggerating a point, but seriousily in my opinnion as amateur at writing, its easier for me to create a bad character with multiply flaws, which you can use to create a personallity. Usually I like to start out with bad boys types and then later in story try to develop some softer sides and good traits in them. But you more expert writers, such as you Dex and several others on AFF, seem to create believeable and interesting good guys without any such problems so I salute you Gslinger

:xmastree2: May your Holiday be bright or white... whatever you like! One of your fans!

[Guest Robin_Mask]

So nice guys can't be anything but boring? That's a sad thing to think.

I think I agree with Calanthee on this, in that it's a lot harder for amateur writers to pull off a 'nice guy' than a long-time or proffessional writer.

My personal take on it is that stories are all about conflict, whether emotional or physical or spiritual etc., without some kind of conflict you just have a very empty plot and nothing to keep the reader hooked. Thus the problem with a total 'nice guy' is he isn't prone to conflict; he'd turn the other cheek when attacked, ignore an insult when offended, and generally take what is given. Of course this is all only to a certain extent, no one would sit back and just take all the crap thrown at them, but again he wouldn't react enough to cause conflict the same way a 'bad guy' would. It's possible, of course, but I think you have to be a very skilled writer to pull it off, because otherwise you cross the line and your good guy becomes the bad guy. I know writers like yourself are very good at crafting all character types, but not everyone is. I know in my own works I often have good guys, but only when put with a bad guy, because I just can't get an interesting story with only a good guy as the focus. It's a very difficult thing to do in my opinion, and I salute any writer who can have a good guy as the main focus and maintain an interesting plot

[BronxWench]

So nice guys can't be anything but boring? That's a sad thing to think.

Sometimes nice guys are boring, until you hit them with something that pushes them past their limits. No one's ever nice all the time. Everyone has triggers, and if you can realistically portray how they react to those, nice guys can be a hell of a lot of fun to write.

Having said that, I prefer a little edge to my male characters. I find snark incredibly sexy, and a battle of wits amuses the hells out of me. I don't like men that are doormats, and I can't write men that are doormats, unless they are slated to die horribly in the very near future. But total bastards amuse me even less, unless I'm allowed to use them for target practice. Honestly, it's even harder to make a complete gobshite's redemption believable than it is to write a nice guy with limits.

But that's just me...