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I’d say I mostly hate Mary Sue because of the eyes. Yup. Them eyes.

I recall those days and it was a horrible trend I’m glad to see gone. Well, mostly gone as a rule. A few hateful jerks will try it, but most readers refuse to read those stories so it is in death throws state far as I can tell. Fortunately a lot of the readers and even fellow writers stood up to such trolls, and I think that did a great service for everyone. I still think there is no substitute for research and learning the subject material to the best of one’s ability so you can write a strong story, but I also think that new writers need to be granted more leeway to learn characterization at times also.

Have to admit I was wondering about the sudden surge in comments on years old topics, but I’m guessing the debate still rages today, and it’s every bit as relevant. A web comic about Sue: http://interrobangstudios.com/comics-display.php?strip_id=989 I try to avoid Sues myself (maybe name a non-sue OC as Sue….?) However, if Sue is what floats a particular author, gets ‘em writing, gives them experience to then go back and judge, that’s okay too, because we all have to start somewhere and we’ll all make mistakes (unless the byline is Mary Sue...she’ll get it perfect the first time).

I kinda prefer my characters to be undressed… but that’s me. And, if it takes multiple paragraphs, that’s fine I did write one scene, though, where it was a couple doing a reverse strip tease, getting dressed from nakedness, but that was more about how they didn’t really want to get dressed.

https://fanlore.org/wiki/The_Sparklypoo_Comic

Thank you Avaloyuru! I was just playing around a bit. Mashed a couple of co-authored stories together, and the characters in them. It’s so long since I wrote for lotr.. I have to get back there eventually. At the moment, I write what the muse tells me to. But I miss Glorfindel and Gildor. And Elrond.. I miss him. And Thranduil. And Legolas. *sighs* I don’t miss Sauron.

Exactly, Bronx. M/F really is the biggest ball of hatred spewing class that I’ve noticed over the years. In terms of original fiction, there isn’t a guidebook that the fans have evolved to use against fellow writers, so they nitpick the fanfiction realm and spout some pretty petty and crazy hatreds at times for a variety of reasons. Especially if you pair an original with a canon character who is everyone’s favorite character for a series it seems.

I think M/F writers run the biggest chance of having characters labeled as Sues. It’s far too easy to fall into the tropes.

I consider the term to be generic, for the under-developed and/or overly-powered (perhaps self-inserted) character. It’s easy to accidentally do, to have a flawless character, if the author isn’t paying attention. Other times, it might be deliberate, especially when it comes to a super hero.

Absolutely! You took the words right out of my mouth – whatever gets em writing, I’ll get behind 100%… well, within reason. (I may have some reservations about hateful propaganda lol). The one thing I could not stand back when I was in fan fiction a million years ago, was when writers would write stories making fun of ‘bad’ writers in their fandom, which was often the beginners. That is a way worse offense than intentionally or accidentally making a mary sue/gary stu character. I can’t imagine how many of those beginner writers were so humiliated and bullied they never picked up the pen again. @Kurahieiritr You really know your stuff, don’t you? Your analysis of the various fandoms and the differences on their general treatment of sue/stu is fascinating. I’m really curious about that double standard. It doesn’t surprise me in the slightest, but I’ve been out of fan fiction so long… Well I don’t know why it seems to be a fan fiction flame thing. Mary sue is not a strictly fan fiction concept, but I haven’t noticed the term floating around in the original fiction world as much as I did in the fan fiction world. Though I am specifically m/m, which very well may be evidence of your whole point. When most of the mains are male, the issue doesn’t seem to come up. I wonder if F/F or M/F writers have more problems with readers screaming mary sue?

Great point about some folks enjoying the ability to write over perfected original characters. I find I’m tolerant of an overly perfected character that the canon characters gush over only so long as the situation proves they are worthy of the gushing gets shown to me. It’s the telling me that a character is something spectacular without adding any convincing activities that makes me irritable with the Sue/Stu variety characters. Such a feeling is a common enough argument against them as there is nothing to really make such perfected characters feel believable which is the whole reason for the bashing when you really consider the root issue that causes the discontented feelings in readers. I’ve seen a few writers who make very compelling Sue and Stu characters, but the compelling element truly is in having a strong grasp of characterization and showing the attributes in action that makes such characters a good and entertaining read. It is still a case of irritation for many fans whenever the perfect seeming, yet rather boring written out OC overtakes the canon characters abilities and makes the canon characters look incompetent in some fashion. Outshining the canon characters in fan fiction is when the most complaints of Mary Sue characterization happens as far as I can tell. Whenever an OC earns their place through activities, so is okay to outshine the other canon characters, a lot fewer grumbles are heard from the fan base in many cases. It also seems to depend on what specific show or genre/series you are looking at writing from what I’ve noticed as a writer of numerous animes/mangas. Some fandoms are very accepting of a Mary or Gary, while others are exceptionally intolerant as was commented upon about an LOTR site within this thread. Initial D is not very accepting because of the unbelievable American take over of the fandom class 14 year old writers making their fantasies of being great drivers without ever having driven disease. Zero real research also adds to the likelihood of hatred for an OC overall. Like was described here, the over described clothing and similar aspects drive readers into mental corners, and that also plays a huge role in the Mary Sue bashing. Gary never gets half so much block paragraph descriptions as a rule. He’s allowed to move around more while being described unlike Sue which is trapped within a rigid series of overblown details most of the time. Anime/mangas like Fairy Tail tends to have a fandom that will applaud the crazy OC perfected character with fair ease and adoration so long as the character’s magic is within bounds, and they have a perceived flaw somewhere in their make up. Stuff like Attack on Titan/Shingeki no Kyojin fandoms are another free for all where Mary and Gary can thrive because the fandom tends to make everything into AU type stories and ignores canon-verse. So I think a lot of the real Mary and Gary variety complaints have shifted due to the fandom based readership in many cases. I see some fandoms being very intolerant like Initial D, while others are more open to the OC who’s a bit too perfect or over the top enough to place a canon in the shaddow so to speak. Additionally, there seems to be a phenomena that is very much anti-female original character oriented so there’s a hint of a double standard society has created at work in the deeper levels of psychological kickback experienced most of the time. It is rare to see the same level of vitriol spewed toward Gary Stu characters as a whole even when they eclipse a canon character too far that I’ve noticed over my years of being a fan fiction writer. Flames due to Mary/Gary characterization may also be a powerful factor in the uptick in Canon Character x Reader stories as a whole because it removes the ability to complain and hate an OC that someone has written into a fan fiction also. Due to pressure to not get flamed and screamed at, the “x Reader” craze has gained a solid toe hold and is not likely to vanish any time soon. So in a strange twist of fate, we have the emergence of a secondary way to engage readers while making it impossible to spew OC hatred with the sudden surge of x Reader story lines. I know Devianart is in overload with x Reader tales of late, and you have to wade through a lot of stories to find canon x canon or even canon x OC type stories over the last year.

That’s an interesting take on the Sue issue there, BW. And reading that, I think I see a bit of the anti-Sue in myself….

In general, I love to read about Elves. Pairings with Hobbits or Dwarves are not to my liking.....it's just difficult for me to imagine, for example, a Hobbit paired with a Men and such... It really depends on how a story is written and how the characters are portrayed, but I like to read about these pairings: Elrohir/Legolas Elrohir/Lindir ->I like stories with the twins in general Erestor/Glorfindel (but please no overly shy or strangely behaving Erestor : Erestor/Ereinion What about you? What pairings do you like?

I’m pretty much into elf slash, and I’ve written my favourites. So those would be (in no particular order): Sauron/Maglor Elrond/The Mirkwood Three (and combinations thereof), which is to say Oropher, Thranduil and Legolas Elrond/Young!Thranduil Acutally, Elrond/pretty much anyone, including Celebrian Thranduil/Legolas (with Tafkab) Erestor/Twins (with Tafkab) Glorfindel/Erestor (I lost a lot of chapters when I got rid of a duplicate story in the archives, and I never really got over that) Glorfindel/Gildor (with BronxWench) Legolas/Gimli I’m sure there are more. I was starting to enjoy writing little bits of Celeborn/Thranduil and Galion/Legolas when I kind of lost my muse. I was also getting to know Curufin/Celegorm, and I’d just begun advancing the S/M into Melkor/Sauron territory. Maybe it will come back. I hope so. I mean, The Teacher is kind of like my life’s work of the past 10+ years, and I’d like to finish it someday.

I felt a bit cheated, with the movies, I mean, with the Hobbit at three, then certainly the LoTR could’ve been six, or even nine! Imagine, the scouring of the shire, a nice little short story by itself, could’ve made it in.

Hmmm… maybe we ought to start up a Mary Sue fan club, lure them into a trap….

@CloverReef Thanks for your kind words. Guess it is the presence I’ve had since the early 90’s in the fanfiction realm as a reader/beta/writer hobbyist during diverse time frames that is educating my familiarity with the flaming subject matter of the Sue and Stu issue as a whole. In terms of the socially normalized double standards, I’ve seen a correlation of F/F and M/F based writers having more trouble if a character is an OC, than for M/M (which is what I most often write if there is any kind of pairing allowed at all) so that is why I added it as a relevant point of reference. So I can see why you would be less plagued by such a problem as a whole because of writing M/M predominate story lines. Various fandoms have different tolerances overall to the OC characters, and it often has to do with fans feeling entitled to ship warring when it comes to Canon characters also. If you haunt M/F stories where the female is an OC and the male a canon is where the bulk of Sue bashing takes place. Especially with the hottie of the canon show being the love interest’s boyfriend. It’s that combination when you’ll start to notice more vocal written complaints about Mary Sue as a whole. At least that has been my eye ball experience of the fandoms involved that I tend to write about, or work with as a whole system. With shows like Slayers, the biggest arguments are about OOC behaviors of canons has been my personal experience of that particular series, as the bulk of the OC characters seem to be the bad guys, which is also a common thread for Fairy Tail and the more open to OC type characters for the fandoms as a whole. So nobody even considers putting canons from Slayers with non canon characters as a rule and that prevents Sue/Stu issues most of the time. So diverse fandoms have these unspoken yet very obvious rule books to what can and cannot be written happens to be an underpinning for the Sue and Stu variety arguments some fandoms have, while others don’t. Observation teaches you the rule book so to speak. The only fandom I’ve dared to write a M/F pairing for to date has been Fairy Tail. AT FFnet, I get some rather dreadful flames for putting the character of Lucy with anyone other than Natsu as an example of how Shipping wars of canon characters play such a determination for x Reader Story lines, and including OC characters in canon half shipping at least relieves and eases some of the vitriol you’d otherwise experience as a writer in that fandom at least. So it is more of a character specific complaint that a canon set forth interest is treated as a crack ship when anime and manga chapters specify otherwise as much as any other factor that encourages an OC character to be added to the Fairy Tail canon character romance smorgasbord in order to avoid the insane shippers who hate everything but their OTP for Fairy Tail at least. So my experience is that Fairy Tail is prone to canon specific pairing ship wars more so than Mary or Gary issues of making one of the partners an OC. Even Initial D has ship wars over which Takehashi brother should get Takumi in the M/M shipping ideals. An attempt to evade shipping wars can make an OC love interest very attractive to some writers for that reason. When fangirls get rabid enough, OC is the only remaining option if you wish to have romance in the story line for some fandoms. In others, there is zero tolerance though. So you have to take the underlying laws of each fandom’s tolerances into account to write in the anime/manga sphere at least.

Been such a busy year over here that I’ve barely even had time to visit this site. I moved into a new place among other drastic changes.

Wow, @Avaloyuru I think I agree with pretty much everything you just said lol. I even used to do the bio sheets too (now I just start writing and after a scene, when I’m in the head of the characters, I start to map out their personality in the planning files and make decisions about quirks and whatnot.) It’s been quite a few years since this thread started, and I think my views on the Mary sue/Gary stu topic have changed or evolved somewhat. I think a lot of the symptoms of that kinda character are kinda important to beginning writers, especially young ones, in sort of experimenting with character development and learning how to get in their characters heads, and learning the empathy and whatnot required to really write a powerful character. Might not be an experience all writers go through, but I think it’s a crucial one for many. And definitely, some writers stick to that kinda character as their weapon of choice. That’s totally legit. I used to think it was an indication of bad writing to have a mary sue character. Though I didn’t necessarily think a perfect character was mary sue, but rather a character that makes the characters around them act in nonsensical ways (like everyone in the story gushing that Suzie is such a sweetheart, even though all her appearances, she seems pretty mean and inappropriate). But the perfect character that everyone wants to be with, which often is defined as the mary sue character, can absolutely be done with tact and skill. Everyone should do the characters that they enjoy. Personally, they’re not my cup of tea, but I’m more of a villain lover than a hero humper to begin with.

My boxes arrived from Japan today! Took less than two months, while I thought it would take more like three But still… eight boxes of stuff… mother says I have too much crap.

Wow! A lot of insights on these Mary/Marty Sue characters, the good, the bad, and the ugly so to speak. I don’t judge those who use these types of characters, however, personally, I don’t use them (based on the definition I understand them to be) but I totally and completely get the concept that type of writing provides, regardless of the genre, it is a personal expression and should be viewed as such. I'm just now getting back into writing after about a 20-25 year break, it's amazing to me that Fan-Fiction has actually been around that long, but then again not! I think it's important to remember that there is an audience for every type or style of writing, even for the ‘out of this world, totally perfect’ non-canon characters. Some readers are simply looking for an escape so to speak from the normal routine of a particular storyline, these characters do that for them and it’s a good thing! It won’t and shouldn’t blow their minds so speak about the original storyline. I compare it to my choice of genre and accept the fact that there are some (a lot of) people that are offended by graphically described sexual acts whether they are normal (if there is such a thing) or blatant erotica and that that entails. I love being the antagonist, I don’t want some superhero coming in to save the day or a bumbling idiot for the sake of humor. It’s just a personal choice, but I tend to do enormous amounts of research when it comes to canon characters and I do my best (in my opinion) to maintain some form of continuity to that character. With that being said, when I choose to create a new character from the ground up, all that research is heavily relied on in an effort to make them fit into the world I’m writing. For example, my current (and forever shall be) obsession is Tolkien, so I resort to my membership in various Tolkien Societies to create these ‘new’ characters so they will fit in. Every character has their own bio-sheet that describes everything about them, some are several pages long depending on what role they are to play in the story. I have about seven personally created characters in my overall cast for the Hobbit/LOTR. Introducing them to canon characters can sometimes be difficult if I intend to run some form of a parallel path with the original authors' ideology. Beyond the fact that I completely adore Tolkiens’ works, I think the gaps in time, the abundance of unknowns, and the general ‘left undone’ and missing parts of his works leave a lot of room for Fan-Fiction creativity. There’s always an interesting side story to tell (evil grin). Respectfully speaking, I am not judging anyone regardless of their use or non-use of these types of characters. In another site, I still belong to (because they have great resources), these types of characters are forbidden which I think is wrong. It is now strictly a Hobbit/LOTR site and the admins are getting pretty picking if you get ‘too far out of line’ (in their opinion) with canon characters. No writer should be limited in their creativity as long as there is an audience that is reading their work. Thanks for reading, it’s just another point of view.

Hey! You should definitely join us for the Halloween Round Robin party hosted by Tahn! My entry for this year is Liquid Lust and there will be more posted from that story because my plunnies demanded longer….

Wow! Thank you so much, CL! I'll try and give a coherent response to all of this. What an amazing review! (Chapter 1) Well, we had options, but in the end, Thranduil's clear obsession with wine could not be ignored. Expanding the wine cellar? Yeah, that sounds like him. Lol, seriously, we had to use a trope for this, and forced proximity mixed with a near death scare won out. (Chapter 2) Yes. On the surface, it seems Thranduil finds it easier to face. But who knows what's going off inside his head? *g* (Chapter 3) Okay, so I can't speak for TAFKAB, but I think Thranduil was assuming Legolas would want to forget all about it. Especially since he was necking that wine like water. When Legolas appeared in his room, it startled him, and he fell back into a role he knows well, hence all the Dom instructions. But then, when Legolas embraced him, it melted his heart. How could it not? As for Legolas, I definitely see him as quite capable of embarking on this, even though he hasn't got a clue what is coming. It will be a journey for him, knowing how kinky Thranduil is, but he won't be damaged by it. For me, he's still quite playful, and that will come out at times. (Chapter 4) Thranduil does love Legolas very much, as his son, and he's still aggrieved that his actions have damaged him forever. But, as Legolas said here, the door is open and cannot be easily shut. Legolas does not intend to allow it to be shut on him, for all that Thranduil considers himself the dominant partner. Maybe the silly elven King is fooling himself there too? Maybe there is a bit of both going on? Oohh... maybe... Again, thank you, and I hope you enjoy the rest of the story. We are well in front, so will be posting more in a few days

Wow, Bronx I don't know what to say. Thank you so much for all of these wonderful words! I am sure TAFKAB will reply too, but I love to get your responses. They make my day, every single time It occurred to both of us that Thranduil and Legolas, as characters, were just perfect together, and so we wanted to write something to capture that. We have plans and plots in store for these two. And quite a bit of playtime if Thranduil has anything to do with it. He's definitely driving in this relationship... at least, so far... For myself, it's very satisfying to write a story featuring them away from The Teacher, because I do think they deserve something that revolves around them. Legolas is innocent, and he doesn't really know what awaits him. And yet, I don't feel he is easily put off or frightened. He does go out fighting spiders, after all. He trusts Thranduil very much, and though I'm quite sure there are going to be a few rebellious moments along the way, and some surprises, I promise we won't hurt either of them. When we let them go again, they'll be happy. We haven't collaborated on anything else so far, but I did write TAFKAB's Gimli and Legolas, and TAFKAB has written my version of Elrond in a very dominant roleplay that is incredibly hot. Soon, I will make TAFKAB post it here. *nudges TAFKAB*

I like Sue/Stu's, but they have to be done right or they become to predictable. What is fun is to build a character like Mary Sue and then slowly reveal flaws and weaknesses, let the reader slowly discover that the character isn't as perfect as the she/he seemed at first blush. That way you show that your character isn't perfect, just better at hiding their flaws...that makes them real because that's what we all do obsess over flaws, either real or percieved, and try to deperately hide them from others