Introducing characters

[SirGeneralSir]

So I was talking with my wife about the first chapter to an Original story I am working on and she commented on that she didnt know how she felt about the appearance/description for three female characters as I described their bust size.

My thinking was that it’s important because of how the characters are treated, for example there is a blond busty elf girl, she is not a bimbo and has some powerful magical abilities, push her too far and you will have a fireball heading for your nuts.

I tried to give the MC, male, the same level of detail about his build, or rather lack of. He in no way looks or sounds like a hero.

would anyone be able to give me their thoughts on this?  

[Anesor]

I think it depends heavily on the audience you want to write this for: like mainstream, men’s adventure, YA, or capital ‘L’ literature. I know the romance genres I read wouldn’t put the emphasis on her appearance instead of her experiences and agency.  Dwelling on her appearance/not his is a concern of adolescent lack of confidence.  I know my brother (a human) didn’t settle into his appearance until nearly twenty.  Men’s adventure would glowingly dwell on her bust size regardless of her skill.  Literature might bait and switch by having her be trans or aggressively asexual.  YA would make it a lesson that there is no lack in the hero or curse in the different sizes for the three women.

Unless there’s a particular reason why being a busty elf adds to the story, that being an important aspect of her personality would be off-putting.  Mine has changed as I rolled through lifestages, but I doubt and hope whatever size it was, was not even in the top ten things that people think is important about me.  (I allow exceptions for medical like back damage or professionals like actors)  There might even be an element of fairness, if the women are to be described for eyecandy viewpoints, describe the men as well.  Like the Mandolorean actor looks real good under that beskar.  Not sure if I explained it right, but comparing bust sizes would probably get me to ditch the story if nothing else softened the bad taste. Good luck!

[InvidiaRed]

3 hours ago, SirGeneralSir said:

So I was talking with my wife about the first chapter to an Original story I am working on and she commented on that she didnt know how she felt about the appearance/description for three female characters as I described their bust size.

My thinking was that it’s important because of how the characters are treated, for example there is a blond busty elf girl, she is not a bimbo and has some powerful magical abilities, push her too far and you will have a fireball heading for your nuts.

I tried to give the MC, male, the same level of detail about his build, or rather lack of. He in no way looks or sounds like a hero.

would anyone be able to give me their thoughts on this?  

Eyecandy should be unisex in my opinion.

Not every man has to be a bodybuilding adonis of course nor every women a perfect voluptuous sex goddess

Give him a broad shoulders, or great legs or a big booty or a nice bulge or even those nice full jawlines.

 

Her experiences sound like she got them early/ they were bigger than the other women around her. And she was not treated well because of this sudden puberty driven endowment.

 

[Desiderius Price]

I know some authors seem to like to dwell like the reader is bringing a ruler to every person the see? 
“Excuse me ma’am, Federal Boobie Inspector, please step this way for measurements.” 
ZZ-Cup?
But unless the breasts are unusual, I typically don’t go out of my way to describe them, let the reader’s imagination (likely as perverted as yours) go to work with whatever they fancy.  Generally, I prefer to stick to “larger” or “smaller” plus quality.  Not everybody is “large”, should have modest/small ones around too (unless there’s a universal law requiring everybody to get breast-augmentation surgery or something).  Also, large breasts need good support & can give back pain (as far as I know, not that gender).  And, there’s more than size to consider, there’s firmness, sag, etc, again, if significant or another character is playing with them.

For male characters, similar thing – circumcision or not is the first thing I’ll establish.  Size, if unusual/important, might be mentioned.

However, comparisons might happen more often, so you have two characters together and the difference is noticeable, then you might establish that one character’s todger is longer/thinner than the other.

My $0.02 worth.

 

[BronxWench]

I absolutely dislike the way female characteristics have to be described in great detail, as if that’s the most important thing about the character. It’s about as endearing to me as the chainmail bikini trope. I’m equally put off by the need to describe male measurements, especially when the poor bastard is being saddled with a cock that would split a horse in half, never mind a human woman. 

Why can’t anyone be average in fiction anymore?

[Desiderius Price]

As somebody who prefers to write my characters as being naked….   I will frequently add a bit of description to the state of the breasts/dick; might be sag, swaying with the gait, so cold the balls are non-existent, maybe its pubic hair, etc.  I do this because it’s a reminder that the character is naked w/o having to repeatedly write “naked”.

Also, I typically avoid absolute measurements, because I don’t really need to know it’s “K-cup”, and TBH, that’s less informative IMO than simply stating “big” vs “small”.  If two are standing side-by-side, that’s where the relative comparisons might come in, especially if it’s from the POV male who’ll check.  It’s fairly limited when I’ll write an absolute (a bio, a ruler, a dispute to clothes sizing, etc) and needed for the story.

Now, the original question was in regards to introductions, I suppose a bit more is okay, if it’s relevant, to help introduce, but the reader typically doesn’t need a full bio there either.  “Helga was a big, busty, blonde woman who staffed the kitchen.”  And you can get more details later in the scene as she’s complaining about her constant back pain, or twenty fifth pregnancy.  

 

[Desiderius Price]

55 minutes ago, BronxWench said:

Why can’t anyone be average in fiction anymore?

Oh, I’m below average, so I’ve cursed some characters with micropenis    Another with one so bent the guy can’t take a piss without getting it on himself.  A third one with chewed foreskin (girlfriend issues).  As a whole, I prefer keeping the average, well, average.  With my potter fanfic, there are exceptions...involving magic.

[SirGeneralSir]

Awesome feedback everyone.

This is the actual current description that I was going with for the elf girl, it more or less was the same way for the other two women with slight detail changes.

“Janina, a young elf with blond hair that was always tied up into a folded ponytail bun, stood at just over six feet tall and had green eyes that were sharper than any dagger. Her green top gently hugged her athletic body, her fair sized breasts pressing against the fabric were the envy of many women, as were her strong toned legs hidden by a pair of grey pants that held on to her round shapely buttocks.

Only once did anyone ever try to force her to do something she didn't want to. She had the man pinned to the wall with a spell and a blue fire ball in her hand ready to kill the poor drunk.

After he had pissed his pants, she smiled at him and told him it was time to go home before he gets into any more trouble, to which he quickly paid his tab and ran home. Janina simply returned to work while the entire tavern was dead silent, not one person taking their eyes off her until she asked if anyone needed another drink.”

I tried to limit my description of her bust but felt it was important because the idea is that her having larger breasts, gives people that do not know her as being a potential bimbo and an easy mark, until that fireball appears.

[Desiderius Price]

7 minutes ago, SirGeneralSir said:

Awesome feedback everyone.

This is the actual current description that I was going with for the elf girl, it more or less was the same way for the other two women with slight detail changes.

“Janina, a young elf with blond hair that was always tied up into a folded ponytail bun, stood at just over six feet tall and had green eyes that were sharper than any dagger. Her green top gently hugged her athletic body, her fair sized breasts pressing against the fabric were the envy of many women, as were her strong toned legs hidden by a pair of grey pants that held on to her round shapely buttocks.

Only once did anyone ever try to force her to do something she didn't want to. She had the man pinned to the wall with a spell and a blue fire ball in her hand ready to kill the poor drunk.

After he had pissed his pants, she smiled at him and told him it was time to go home before he gets into any more trouble, to which he quickly paid his tab and ran home. Janina simply returned to work while the entire tavern was dead silent, not one person taking their eyes off her until she asked if anyone needed another drink.”

I tried to limit my description of her bust but felt it was important because the idea is that her having larger breasts, gives people that do not know her as being a potential bimbo and an easy mark, until that fireball appears.

Lemme turn this snippet into a full, multi-chaptered, backstory! 

TBH, that’s not quite my style, I’d write something more like:

Quote

Janina, a tall young elf with her blond hair tied up into a folded ponytail bun, trained her green eyes on the man that entered her tavern.

“Hey BIMBO!” the man said, “Where’s that ale I ordered?”

This man reminded her of the last bloke who tried talking to her like that, how she pinned that drunk against the wall with her blue fire ball, ready to kill him.

Obviously, I didn’t capture all the details, but you get the hint.   I try to lure in the reader with a bit of action intermingled with the description, leveraging the flashback you’re alluding to.  This lets you spread your info-dumping over multiple paragraphs/actions, and adding in a random patron.

[BronxWench]

I find the idea of people associating larger breasts with some woman being a bimbo to be truly offensive, actually. It’s not a matter of choice. We are all the sum of our genetic inheritance, and whether or not you have generous physical attributes, or fall below some generic notion of what’s considered attractive at the moment is not something that should EVER influence how we see people.

Frankly, if I was your poor elf lass, I’d fireball the lot of them, get some breast reduction magic, and move on with my life far away from humans.

[Desiderius Price]

9 hours ago, BronxWench said:

I find the idea of people associating larger breasts with some woman being a bimbo to be truly offensive, actually. It’s not a matter of choice. We are all the sum of our genetic inheritance, and whether or not you have generous physical attributes, or fall below some generic notion of what’s considered attractive at the moment is not something that should EVER influence how we see people.

Frankly, if I was your poor elf lass, I’d fireball the lot of them, get some breast reduction magic, and move on with my life far away from humans.

Sorry for personally offending you there.   Meant it more of an exercise of showing how the character responds to insults—another stain on the wall perhaps?  Showing instead of simply telling can make the reading more interesting, IMO.

[BronxWench]

5 hours ago, Desiderius Price said:

Sorry for personally offending you there.   Meant it more of an exercise of showing how the character responds to insults—another stain on the wall perhaps?  Showing instead of simply telling can make the reading more interesting, IMO.

It wasn’t you, @Desiderius Price. This has been an ongoing discussion with SGS about breasts, size, and descriptors over the years. The kneejerk assumption that curvy women are all potential bimbos is just outdated and utterly irritating because it perpetuates the whole “she was asking for it” culture. We should be better than that.

[Desiderius Price]

25 minutes ago, BronxWench said:

It wasn’t you, @Desiderius Price. This has been an ongoing discussion with SGS about breasts, size, and descriptors over the years. The kneejerk assumption that curvy women are all potential bimbos is just outdated and utterly irritating because it perpetuates the whole “she was asking for it” culture. We should be better than that.

I figured a full multi-chapter rewrite wouldn’t be great in a forum post, so didn’t portray the douche-bag’s blood reduction process before his perpetual eternal BBQ.   Otherwise, I agree it’s best to not perpetuate the stereotypes (though, while writing fiction, I don’t mind plastering offender’s brains on the ceilings….)

[JayDee]

23 hours ago, SirGeneralSir said:

Awesome feedback everyone.

This is the actual current description that I was going with for the elf girl, it more or less was the same way for the other two women with slight detail changes.

“Janina, a young elf with blond hair that was always tied up into a folded ponytail bun, stood at just over six feet tall and had green eyes that were sharper than any dagger. Her green top gently hugged her athletic body, her fair sized breasts pressing against the fabric were the envy of many women, as were her strong toned legs hidden by a pair of grey pants that held on to her round shapely buttocks.

Only once did anyone ever try to force her to do something she didn't want to. She had the man pinned to the wall with a spell and a blue fire ball in her hand ready to kill the poor drunk.

After he had pissed his pants, she smiled at him and told him it was time to go home before he gets into any more trouble, to which he quickly paid his tab and ran home. Janina simply returned to work while the entire tavern was dead silent, not one person taking their eyes off her until she asked if anyone needed another drink.”

Small voice from the back: “Couple of large jugs…. of wine please.”

As a disgusting pornographer with almost no fictional morals I say ‘No problem! Go with whatever makes ya happy Porn boobily and make the breast of it!” but I feel like reddit’s MenWritingWomen subreddit and possibly wider groups would react to the above with much the same level of hospitality showed by the maenads to Orpheus. You could alway counterbalance it with description of the man,

“The sot’s undersized cock twitched in his breaches like a distressed otter, spraying his fear from a tiny slit shaped strangely like the dry lips of the old preacher. An jagged scar near the base told of the time he’d tried urinating in a Pike filled river, meanwhile his alcohol-damaged testicles hung loosely in a hairy sack that grew damp in the voided trickle.”

 

[SirGeneralSir]

@BronxWench I agree that it is unfair for people/characters to be labeled just because they look like A or B, big Brest women = bimbos, most of all blond ones, Big mussel bound guys = dumb as a door nail and so on and so on.

My goal in this instance was more of flip on that, yes she is top heavy but to be able to use magic means she is clearly not some typical bimbo that can just be whisked off into a back room after a few nice words or the drop of a few coins,

It will likely be the end of you if you try.

That said, the reason we keep beating this dead horse is that I would rather have multiple people enjoy my story as best I can instead of just throwing a bunch of words and having people roll their eyes at it., I want to become a good writer and not just a typical 

fiction writer that writes about 12in cocks that would never fit inside a actual body, large bouncing breasts that could be classed as a dangerous weapon and all that …… painful stuff.

The two other women, very different from Janina do have moments like that too.

A human girl goes full berserker on a noble and almost kills him with his own sword and a Dark elf throws daggers at a guy trying for force another girl (customer) at the tavern to go with him.

The tavern owner, a Dwarf doesn't need bouncers when he has the girls, but if someone does step well out of line, he has his axe under the table and has used it.

 

[Desiderius Price]

My original point here was about the info-dumping going on, and to spread the details around in the action scene; show rather than tell, is a mantra I try to live by (though there are times telling is fine.)

Quote

Only once did anyone ever try to force her to do something she didn't want to. She had the man pinned to the wall with a spell and a blue fire ball in her hand ready to kill the poor drunk

That was an instance where I had added in the douche-bag so she could draw parallels to the earlier scene (which could be a backstory/epilogue).

[BronxWench]

34 minutes ago, SirGeneralSir said:

@BronxWench I agree that it is unfair for people/characters to be labeled just because they look like A or B, big Brest women = bimbos, most of all blond ones, Big mussel bound guys = dumb as a door nail and so on and so on.

My goal in this instance was more of flip on that, yes she is top heavy but to be able to use magic means she is clearly not some typical bimbo that can just be whisked off into a back room after a few nice words or the drop of a few coins,

It will likely be the end of you if you try.

That said, the reason we keep beating this dead horse is that I would rather have multiple people enjoy my story as best I can instead of just throwing a bunch of words and having people roll their eyes at it., I want to become a good writer and not just a typical 

fiction writer that writes about 12in cocks that would never fit inside a actual body, large bouncing breasts that could be classed as a dangerous weapon and all that …… painful stuff.

The two other women, very different from Janina do have moments like that too.

A human girl goes full berserker on a noble and almost kills him with his own sword and a Dark elf throws daggers at a guy trying for force another girl (customer) at the tavern to go with him.

The tavern owner, a Dwarf doesn't need bouncers when he has the girls, but if someone does step well out of line, he has his axe under the table and has used it.

 

So, let me ask this. If she were more typically elven, to wit slender and small-breasted, how would that affect her magical abilities? And why, if she’s so proficient a magic user, is she serving drinks at a tavern? If I’d gone through the training inherent in mastering arcane abilities, I certainly wouldn’t head out and get a job serving ale to a group of potential rapists unless I was secretly a serial killer with a passion for murdering rapists (which is not at all a bad thing, mind you).

I’m not sure having the other two women also viewed as mobile pieces of meat available for the first lust-addled male in their vicinity improves anything. It just shows that the males are seriously developmentally challenged, having been unable to muster even the slightest pretext of self control in the presence of females of any race who have curves. This is the antithesis of good writing, because it relies on the tired old trope of “I couldn’t help myself because her tits bounced so nicely in that corset, and besides, she was asking for it because she was female and in a bar and not wearing armor covered in spikes which might possibly have made me think twice about pursuing her.” The characters become caricatures, and the reader is not going to make any sort of connection with them unless the sole purpose for reading your story is to give them something to picture while they wank. 

Look, I get it. You’re writing for male readers, and you’re writing what you find stimulating. But if you’re confused by why your wife and I aren’t squeeing and begging to beta read for you, it’s because you’re objectifying the female characters, and treating the males as spineless cum-fountains looking for the nearest onahole.

[Desiderius Price]

17 minutes ago, BronxWench said:

So, let me ask this. If she were more typically elven, to wit slender and small-breasted, how would that affect her magical abilities? And why, if she’s so proficient a magic user, is she serving drinks at a tavern? If I’d gone through the training inherent in mastering arcane abilities, I certainly wouldn’t head out and get a job serving ale to a group of potential rapists unless I was secretly a serial killer with a passion for murdering rapists (which is not at all a bad thing, mind you).

Maybe Janina is a people person, likes the conversations that one can only get from being a barkeeper.  Maybe she likes the free beer.   It’d be a good spot to know who’s coming through town.  Or, there’s a recession so serial killing doesn’t pay like it used to and she simply needs the money?

I took the bait and speculated, I love to brainstorm

[BronxWench]

Now, if she were a member of a mercenary mage guild, and was sent to infiltrate the tavern to gather information on perhaps a smuggling ring, or some such thing, I could possibly understand it. But if she was acting as a spy, she’d be more likely to want to blend into the background, rather than be the focus of attention. And then she’d really be reluctant to tip her hand and fireball the gormless molester, because the one drunk in the very back of the room who hasn’t pickled his last brain cell might actually ask the same question I did: Hey, mage, why are you tending bar instead of using your mighty spells to defend the realm, or at least earn some gold?

[Thundercloud]

I think much depends on why details are presented to the reader. Somebody looking into a mirror or a certain characters looking and remembering are good narrative tricks to give visuals...giving an info dump about females that happen to be at the location but does not feature in any action or plot is quite the opposite. The equivalent of movies where the camera crew go hunting for camera views that make the babes look sexy instead of things that advance the plot.

Trying to balance the scale afterward by “objectify” a male lead character is like digging deeper into the hole. Those who think the description of the female jumped at them, won’t be less irritated because it is done again for another character. In short I think you should listen to your wife…

Edited July 12, 2021 by Thundercloud

[SirGeneralSir]

So story wise, the three women will have personal reasons for working at the tavern, mostly along the lines that the owner was good to them and helped them in XYZ situations, same with the MC.

The reason that I do have some of these “men” act that way is because, it happens, its real world ish. (Not that its right mind you)

Janina’s appearance means nothing for her actual skills, she is just a woman with a larger chest, but as the typical perception goes, looks = ……… thing only for it not to be true.

The three girls do and will get some light harassments in terms of comments but none of the “smart” men will ever try to force them because if the girls dont kill them, the tavern owner will because in a way they are almost like his daughters, but they are also big girls that can take care of them selves.  

In the story, there is even a goddess that appears and the typical fat rich head of the merchants guild tries to seduce her with his non existent charm, only for her to change into a hulking, bulking, bulging man and make all kinds of belittling comments about his lacking in comparison before changing back.

Over all, I don’t want the story to just be a jack fest, I want to make an actual story that hopefully both men and women would enjoy.

The world they are in, I would say is a light demonic/monster post apocalyptical world, the kingdoms still exist and so do the armies but they stay behind the walls, heading out at night is more or less a death sentence and during the day can be just as dangerous too so the guilds have almost no members as many are not even strong enough to fight most monsters. 

 

[BronxWench]

I’m still not getting any feel whatsoever for the character as a person. The girls can take care of themselves, but the dwarven tavern owner will also defend them. So, are they strong women who stand on their own, or damsels in distress?  I like strong characters, male or female, and I like to feel like I have gotten to know them, what motivates them, and why they react the way they do. I want to know what they hope for, and what they’re most afraid of. I’d really like it if one f the things they dislike or fear could NOT be sexual harassment because that’s so overdone as to be ridiculous.

Let me put it this way. I played a computer RPG, based on D&D lore. My player character was doing her thing, and collecting a party of fellow adventurers to help her complete her quest to save the world. One character was a male paladin, who was (thanks to some exceedingly lazy writing) the only legitimate love interest for the female player character. He announces his interest by telling her, in bumbling virginal paladin fashion, “I just want to protect you.” I was dumbfounded. He was a decent fighter, but my PC was kicking ass on a much higher level than he was, and had just rescued him several times over when he came out with this. I was LIVID at the writers. These guys got PAID to write what amounted to an adolescent wank-fantasy of the paladin riding to the rescue and the  PC immediately falling head over heels for him. NOT this PC. She informed him that she was not interested, and I finished the game without a romance arc. 

So, please, don’t write another infuriating, over the top, no-your-voice-hasn’t-quite-changed-yet-but-it’s-okay wet dream fantasy where everyone has all the charisma of a biscuit that got dipped in the tea too often. Write REAL people, with heartbeats, with mundane concerns we can understand, with flaws but also with decent intentions. People who can be strong when they need to be, but who know they can’t go it totally alone. People without god-like skills, or extraordinary luck. The plot can be a bit thin as long as you have great characters. That way, when they screw up, which most people do in real life, we readers can shake our heads, and mutter, “Well, that was stupid,” all the while rooting for the character anyway because we really like them. If you can pull that off, you won’t need the sexual harassment fantasies, and the focus on bouncy asses and tits.

[SirGeneralSir]

They are NOT the damsels in distress, they are just three girls/women working at a tavern, they are ok with a little fun, but will murder you if you cross that line, you get one warning.

In one of the descriptions for one of the girls, there was several “men” that were ….. persistent, they were also armed so the owner who is the bartender, pulled out his axe and cut the leader in half and mounted his helmet on the wall behind him.

The MC is a young man that also works at the tavern, polite and respectful, a good boy  

If you were to fuse Aang, Sokka and Naruto into one person, that is kind of what I am going for personality wise. 

If a woman’s top ripped off in public, he would be the first to offer his shirt or find something else to cover her with, if she is actively flirting with him he will blush but not make a move unless she gives him the ok.

If the girls have to bring food/drink to some people that would be annoying to the girls, he will take it to them instead so they dont have to, the ultimate customer service face, though I am trying to plant some darkness in him too.

for the first few chapters, the girls will be side characters that eventually become main characters that help the MC along with the goddess, the world is also set in a RPG type setting but only when someone has been blessed by a god/goddess or demon lord

[Desiderius Price]

“A” in AFF stands for “adult”, which free-speech means you’re free to write a wanker aid, if that wanks your noggin, which is fine.   We’re here to help with improving the writing, and stereotypes are something we’re all susceptible to writing in without realizing it, perhaps we’re writing faster than we’re thinking.   (Felt we needed the reminder.)

My take, of course, is that you could turn your info-dump into some wonderful scenes.

Now, I think you’re going to write this from Janina’s POV, at which point, she’s not going to describe herself in that level of detail – how many women will envy another woman’s breasts?   Now, if you change the POV to be from a male’s (or lesbian’s) perspective, then having him/her lust over her breasts gives you an opportunity to describe them in more detail and be relevant to the story.  If this is an investigator’s POV, investigating the blood stain on the wall post-insult, then measurements of Janina’s breasts might be relevant to the rap-sheet.  From Janina’s POV, you can still hint, having her complain about back-pain from the stress, she doesn’t know the magic, can’t afford the potion, etc, and is saving up for a reduction procedure? 

As to clothes from Janina’s POV, could have her deciding what to wear in the morning, perhaps in front of a mirror, give a chance to describe all of her trousers as being green, or whatever.  Using makeup to hide a mole, etc.  Or even grumble when red wine is spilled and staining her clothes.  And the hair, well, the band could slip so she has to redo it. 

All ideas…

[SirGeneralSir]

The story will be mostly set around the MC, its his adventure sort to speak.

as for the breast thing, I am actually basing it off of a real world experience when I was in Jr High. There was this one girl that was ……. developed, to say the least, and I do remember two other girls who were not as big as her talking to each other about how they wished they had them around her size. now she was not HUGE but I do think that if she got any bigger she might have had to get a reduction later in life.

Most of what I did share is also more or less part of the story as is, just arranged differently.