Writing An Antagonist: Thoughts, Ideas, Processes...

[InvidiaRed]

On 1/27/2017 at 1:51 AM, Tcr said:

So...  While watching a truly terrible movie and writing my own, I had a thought.  Watching the antagonist, a mere caricature and, admittedly, boring in that regards, I started thinking to myself, ‘How?’  Obviously someone had to be paid to...  Dare I say write this villain?  I’m not sure that’s capable of being said.  I’m pretty sure whoever put him in there looked in a dictionary under villain and took all the cliches...  Which is not always a bad thing...

 

So, coupled with a bit of a discussion with my beta regarding the same ideas within the last few weeks (has it been longer?  Maybe longer...  Either way...)  I kind of examined my own antagonists (mostly minor in terms of the overall story at this point) and began seeing that most of what CR and I had discussed had already been put into place.  Some minor tweaks here and there, a few added things into the character, a couple odd search topics in Google...  And a very questionable, yet still lacking detail report regarding said character that is currently saved on my computer...  Hopefully, the minor antagonist in Chapter V has taken on a new life that is not a cartoony version of hyenas marching...  At least, I’m happy with the way it’s turned out.

 

I’d like to think that I added enough to humanize, dare I say relate to (a scary thought, I know), that character.  Those little bits that develop a personality, at least in terms of this one, and create a living breathing antagonist and not a two-dimensional paper cut out as I had seen within the movie...

 

So, then, thoughts abounded...  And perhaps could help other people in writing their own antagonists...

 

How does everyone else create their antagonists?

 

Now that I’ve rambled on and on and on long enough to bore people to death...  I’d like to hear your ideas, thoughts, writing processes, and maybe there’s someone else who will benefit outright as well...

Antagonists are in many ways the easier to create than protagonists. They laugh,cry and generally do everything the protagonists do. 

The who what when and why generally take care of the rest.

 

 

[Desiderius Price]

8 hours ago, InvidiaRed said:

Antagonists are in many ways the easier to create than protagonists. They laugh,cry and generally do everything the protagonists do. 

The who what when and why generally take care of the rest.

Antagonists can also be more complicated too.   In a particular story within my universe, I may choose a name/face to represent the antagonist, but the general antagonist is the collective whole of society, so it’s very multi-faceted in how it wants to screw over my protagonists.  And that’s not out of spite or malice, but more in a belief within the society as a whole that they are right, and going about things in the right way.

[InvidiaRed]

10 hours ago, Desiderius Price said:

Antagonists can also be more complicated too.   In a particular story within my universe, I may choose a name/face to represent the antagonist, but the general antagonist is the collective whole of society, so it’s very multi-faceted in how it wants to screw over my protagonists.  And that’s not out of spite or malice, but more in a belief within the society as a whole that they are right, and going about things in the right way.

spite and malice have their place to be sure.

But its much more satisfying when one of the biggest problems for the protagonists is just normal people going about their lives 

[Desiderius Price]

30 minutes ago, InvidiaRed said:

spite and malice have their place to be sure.

But its much more satisfying when one of the biggest problems for the protagonists is just normal people going about their lives 

Each form of antagonist has it’s time and place in stories, depends on what the author is going for.  Sometimes, a Mr. Joker or Lex Luthor is exactly what the story calls for.  Othertimes, it’s less, even down to just “society” being “normal” in the story’s era/setting.

[InvidiaRed]

On 1/15/2018 at 3:03 AM, Desiderius Price said:

Villains have so much fun

It gets more realistic, IMO, when everybody feels they are doing the right thing, especially when some characters think the ends justify the means.

Yep. Some people just jump right off that slippery slope rather than slide off.

 

[PenStoryTeller]

Antagonist are best conceptualized as the protagonists of a different story. As in the need to have a goal and a reason or desire driving them towards it  The worst thing you can do with an antagonist is to use them as plot-spackkle.

[Anesor]

I find antagonists with similar goals can cause the biggest problems. They may be heroes with their own flaws and hurdles. Or just plain careless and dumb.

But those aren’t the villains, the ones involved in selfish and cruel agendas. I know their major goals, but I still work on intermediate steps and remembering to show those results subtly. I want to show how the big bad is hacking city infrastructure, enough to make problems and get his jollies after earlier losses, but not enough to draw the heroes’ attention fromthe antagonist who’s a pain but not the real big bad. I’m rather pleased about this villain compared to my usual.

I have had some flat villains, but thinking back on the first, I did give him some background and a wife killed earlier by the heroes. He wasn’t that clever on the fly but he was a pain...

[SniperJoe]

Since it’s fanfiction, we kind of get to select our antagonists out of available characters.

Even if they are not originally antagonists, we can then make them one, and that gets more into what this topic is about.

But I think a big part of it is selecting the right person out of the available characters. I think you just pick someone who has a strong connection to the MC.

So for instance I once wrote a Legend of Zelda non-lemon where Zelda was the antagonist and conducted herself in an overly logical way. Perhaps you can get the readers to go against anyone if you make them extreme enough. And I picked Zelda because she had a lot of meat on her as a character, and I could see how she could have differences with my MC Link.

In lemons I haven’t really bothered with real antagonists. It’s more been like a condition as the antagonist. So like a Naruto who’s struggling with his own lusts.

In writing, what’s this again? Man vs Man, Man vs Nature, Man vs Self.

Or something.

 

[Sinfulwolf]

Just to throw in some thoughts. A human antagonist will almost always believe they are doing the right thing. However, they don’t need to be sympathetic for it. There are many examples in history of people that were downright vile doing what they thought was a good thing. Beliefs of superiority due to race, gender, sexuality, religion, etc. have led to many atrocities that were supposed to be for the right reason. While some of these people are universally hated, some are heroes or villains depending on who you ask. Winston Churchill for example. Often seen as a hero by the media, but I’m sure the Irish and Indians have much different views on him. Or Sir John A. MacDonald. One of the leading figures in the formation of Canada as a nation and the first Prime Minister. However an alcoholic and involved pretty firmly in the Residential Schools.

If not human though, minds work in different ways. A few examples have been brought up such as Jaws, or the Raptors in Jurassic Park. These though are primal creatures acting on instinct. Slasher villains such as Jason Vorhees or Michael Myers are often supposed to be embodiment of evil but they are really mostly instinctual and primal. Characters like Pinhead from Hellraiser though have objectives and goals though they are clearly not of the moral variety.

My current story my villain is a demon. He has plots and schemes that involve the destruction of many lives in one way or another, and he’s not sympathetic to the pain he causes as that stands in his way. However, he just just go off destroying things for the shits and giggles of it. It’s less evil, and more amoral from common society’s standpoint. 

[Desiderius Price]

There are certainly psychopaths out there who have no real conscience, who believe the ends justify the means.  Some become serial killers, others become CEOs/Bankers/Lawyers/Politicians.  My current universe, though, are people who feel they are doing the right thing, who agree with what is happening even if it gets a bit “messy”.

[Sinfulwolf]

Wouldn’t someone who feels they are doing the right thing, and agree with what is happening even is it gets a bit “messy” actually be the people who believe the ends justify the means? Someone who’s more along the psychopath route, it almost feels like the means are the goal, and less about an end state.

[Desiderius Price]

Googled it up, there’s no DSM for psychopath, instead, the psychiatrists would label an individual as having “Antisocial personality disorder”, rather vague, though a psychopath, “A "psychopath" is someone whose hurtful actions toward others tend to reflect calculation, manipulation and cunning; they also tend not to feel emotion and mimic (rather than experience) empathy for others.”

An example, a psychopath CEO has no issues with doing layoffs, as they can’t empathize with the employees being laid off, however, what they’re doing, reducing overhead, is in the better interest of the shareholders.  So, I’m guessing there’s a degree to the psychopath.  Some are more goal orientation, don’t care about busting rules/hurting to make the goals.  And some went further, enjoyed the busting/hurt, and therefore enjoy the means as well as the goals.   Not absolutely certain without becoming a psychopath myself.

[Arian-Sinclair]

On 1/27/2017 at 12:14 PM, Tcr said:

“And the comical bad villains”

Right there, I got the image of the ‘60s Batman villains of the week…  Not the good old ones like Joker, Catwoman, Mister Freeze, Penguin, or Riddler…  Ones like King Tut, who are just so laughably comical…

 My train of thought went to Jack Spicer of Xiaolin Showdown. He does take a Level In Badass every now and then, but he’s mostly just trying his damnest to be the most By the Book of Card Carrying Villains throughout most of the show. I love him; he’s hilarious and such an awesome dork.

Edited July 13, 2018 by Arian-Sinclair

[Arian-Sinclair]

On 1/27/2018 at 12:10 PM, InvidiaRed said:

Yep. Some people just jump right off that slippery slope rather than slide off.

 

A good example of that happening is Light Yagami of Death Note. He reaaaaaaally lost it. It looked like he was slipping at first, then he went from gradually slipping to just jumping off that ledge into I Am God! territory.

[GeorgeGlass]

On 7/13/2018 at 4:26 AM, Desiderius Price said:

There are certainly psychopaths out there who have no real conscience, who believe the ends justify the means.  Some become serial killers, others become CEOs/Bankers/Lawyers/Politicians. 

A forensic psychologist once told me about a psychopath (back when psychologists still used that term) he interviewed who was imprisoned for life after having been a hit man for the mob. The prisoner had no remorse about any of the murders he had committed, but he also argued that everyone he killed was someone the world was better off without (because they were all criminals from rival organizations). So even a person with no conscience may feel the need to justify their actions.

[Desiderius Price]

59 minutes ago, GeorgeGlass said:

A forensic psychologist once told me about a psychopath (back when psychologists still used that term) he interviewed who was imprisoned for life after having been a hit man for the mob. The prisoner had no remorse about any of the murders he had committed, but he also argued that everyone he killed was someone the world was better off without (because they were all criminals from rival organizations). So even a person with no conscience may feel the need to justify their actions.

And with as complex as the human mind, we can make our psychopath as deranged as we want!