DeathStalker is at it again

[Guest SailorNemesis]

DeathStalker is at it again, this time with a patron who is apparently paying him to flood the archive with snuff stories.  I don’t really advocate censorship, but this stuff should at least CLEARLY be labeled as SNUFF  so it can be avoided.  Thank you.

[WillowDarkling]

Moved this to what I think is the more appropriate forum. 

Willow Darkling, Forum Moderator. 

[BronxWench]

Fan fiction written for paid commission is not permitted on the site at all. The stories have been removed.

[Guest A curious casual reader.]

 

10 hours ago, BronxWench said:

Fan fiction written for paid commission is not permitted on the site at all. The stories have been removed.

 

Seriousely? One person report that a author has started a patreon, which is seemingly mistaken by the person as a “patron”, and complain that the authors stories would not be labled as “snuff”? Last time I checked the authors stories are “clearly” labeled as snuff when needed. But never the less a moderator goes and delete ALL the stories of the reported author without checking?

The author in question is a member since 2003 and his patreon started around 2-3 month ago jfyi.

[CL Mustafic]

24 minutes ago, Guest A curious casual reader. said:

 

 

Seriousely? One person report that a author has started a patreon, which is seemingly mistaken by the person as a “patron”, and complain that the authors stories would not be labled as “snuff”? Last time I checked the authors stories are “clearly” labeled as snuff when needed. But never the less a moderator goes and delete ALL the stories of the reported author without checking?

The author in question is a member since 2003 and his patreon started around 2-3 month ago jfyi.

I will tell you this, if the stories were removed by a moderator, they didn’t do it ‘just because one person reported it’. Since it was reported, the moderator went to the stories and assessed if they were indeed something that violated our terms of service, which are clearly spelled out for all to read in plain English. If the stories were in violation then, yes, they were removed and the author would be notified as to why they were and depending on the infraction, they could either correct them  and repost or as it seems in this case, since they were commissioned stories, which is clearly a huge no-no, they can’t repost them without them being removed once again.

The thing is, it’s a known fact that this archive is actively moderated by people who know the ToS inside and out so if something was removed, it was done so because the moderator was following a strict set of rules, rules we all follow and expect the users to follow also. If as you said, this user has been a member since 2003, they should be well aware of what is and what isn’t allowed by now.

[BronxWench]

34 minutes ago, Guest A curious casual reader. said:

 

 

Seriousely? One person report that a author has started a patreon, which is seemingly mistaken by the person as a “patron”, and complain that the authors stories would not be labled as “snuff”? Last time I checked the authors stories are “clearly” labeled as snuff when needed. But never the less a moderator goes and delete ALL the stories of the reported author without checking?

The author in question is a member since 2003 and his patreon started around 2-3 month ago jfyi.

If you read our Terms of Service, you will see the following:
 

Quote

You understand that advertising is not allowed in User Submissions or on Author's page as the site is supported by advertising and we do not want to detract from paid advertisers. Adding your site to the url field provided, is not advertising. We welcome you to visit our advertising page here for more information on starting a campaign with us: Advertising information

Further, the very nature of fan fiction involves the use of material whose copyright is not owned by you. In order for that material to be covered under the Fair Use provisions of US copyright law, you cannot make any form of monetary profit from that fan fiction, which includes soliciting donations to a Patreon account. You can read that here:
 

Quote

You understand that with the exception of User Submissions, all material within AFF is owned by AFF and subject to all appropriate copyright laws. User Submissions fall under the Fair Use section of the US Copyright Laws as defined here:
http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/9-a.html

The site can face grave legal consequences if we permit for-profit commissioned fan fiction to be posted here. That affects every member, and while you might have seen one person report this, please understand we investigate every report and base our actions on that investigation. In this case, it had nothing to do with the content. If the stories involved snuff and were clearly labelled, there would be no issue. However, accepting money for work based on a copyright you don’t own is illegal, and is not allowed here. You may note none of the stories removed were original works, and no story was removed unless it contained a link to the Patreon account and a statement that it was a commissioned work.

 

Edited January 5, 2017 by BronxWench

[JayDee]

Just for personal interest here – I didn’t think there was a snuff label requirement? I thought the only requirement is the same as for any type of story, to have the correct codes from the list? If characters are dying then MCD and maybe also Contro, Violence depending on method of death, and Nec if there’s snuggling afterwards?

Also, without making any comment here on the TOS or the application of the rules… Deathstalker is a very talented writer, One whose Name was writ in viscera*, and I shall miss them on the archive.

*I’m not footnoting forum posts**

**OK, ok, it’s paraphrasing John Keats’ last words.

[DemonGoddess]

It’s not the “snuff”, as that would be covered with the contro tag I think.  It’s the unauthorized advertising, and getting paid for fanfiction.  Those are the issues, the paid for fanfiction one quite honestly is the bigger one.

[JayDee]

Ahh, yeah, I didn’t think it was a requirement to label as snuff, but because it had come up in a couple posts I thought I should double check,

[Guest A curious casual reader.]

I just got curious reading the header since I knew the authors work, meant no offense. It stroke me a bit odd that all his stories vanished. Granted, can’t recall which or if any was commissioned or not.

[BronxWench]

I only removed the six new postings from this week, which had the link to his Patreon. The rest of the stories were fine, and I left them in place. So, I can only surmise DeathStalker removed them.

JD, snuff has never actually required a tag of its own, since MCD, Contro, and if necessary Violence more than cover it. So you were right. And DeathStalker is a wonderful writer, even if the content is sometimes not to everyone’s taste. I’m just not eager to see the site closed down for condoning copyright infringement.

[Guest SailorNemesis]

I was not familiar with those tags `MCD’ and `Contro’? Guess i’ll look them up and watch for them in future.  I think there is a big difference though between Violence and actual murder, so I would like a clearer label then that.  

[Desiderius Price]

Main Character Death, and Controversial.

 

Edited January 5, 2017 by Desiderius Price

[Guest SailorNemesis]

Looked it up.  MCD, I guess sort of covers it though that does not clearly state if it’s a murder or if someone wanders into traffic, etc.  Contro could mean almost anything.  Where does SM become contro or for that matter is urinating on someone contro?  It would be for some people.  I think Snuff would be a much more clear label or else something like Murder if people have a problem with Snuff.  I also think Torture is very vague.  Could mean anything from whipping to dismemberment.  I would prefer clear labeling.  I’m not trying to dictate what anyone can read, I just don’t to wander into atrocities that sicken me.  Thank you.

[Desiderius Price]

An author is always free to use “Other” and add a more specific warning. 

[JayDee]

[Off topic]

I can’t shake this mental image of Resident Evil’s Nemesis in a dainty sailor fuku, going after Brad Vickers for snuggles and long walks in the moon light

[/Off Topic]

[Desiderius Price]

The one trouble with tags is they kinda become spoilers, in a way, MCD is the biggie, IMO.  I’m sure the balance was considered long ago, so I put them in while  crossing my fingers that the reader forgets about ‘em before the ending

[CL Mustafic]

16 minutes ago, Guest SailorNemesis said:

Looked it up.  MCD, I guess sort of covers it though that does not clearly state if it’s a murder or if someone wanders into traffic, etc.  Contro could mean almost anything.  Where does SM become contro or for that matter is urinating on someone contro?  It would be for some people.  I think Snuff would be a much more clear label or else something like Murder if people have a problem with Snuff.  I also think Torture is very vague.  Could mean anything from whipping to dismemberment.  I would prefer clear labeling.  I’m not trying to dictate what anyone can read, I just don’t to wander into atrocities that sicken me.  Thank you.

Authors can also add tags of their choosing above and beyond the ones that are mandatory. I added the snuff tag to one of my stories at the beginning of the chapter just because I didn’t want readers to stumble upon it unwittingly but I think a lot of authors aren’t aware that some of the things they write are that (searching for a word here because I hate to use distasteful but that’s the one that springs to mind) to some readers. Or they believe that simply coming to a place like AFF, where most everything is permitted as long as it’s tagged and disclaimed correctly, means the reader knows what they’re getting into. Which is, of course, not true, many people come here to read things that are not just adult in nature but the name sort of implies that everything is, hence the misunderstanding.

[BronxWench]

9 hours ago, Guest SailorNemesis said:

Looked it up.  MCD, I guess sort of covers it though that does not clearly state if it’s a murder or if someone wanders into traffic, etc.  Contro could mean almost anything.  Where does SM become contro or for that matter is urinating on someone contro?  It would be for some people.  I think Snuff would be a much more clear label or else something like Murder if people have a problem with Snuff.  I also think Torture is very vague.  Could mean anything from whipping to dismemberment.  I would prefer clear labeling.  I’m not trying to dictate what anyone can read, I just don’t to wander into atrocities that sicken me.  Thank you.

As I recall, the word “snuff” was included in at least two of the story summaries for the stories I removed. Were it not for the larger issue of fan fiction for profit, I’d have merely hidden the other four and asked that the warnings be made clearer if I did not think the current tags were sufficient. After 6 years moderating for AFF, I’ve been sandbagged by more than enough unexpected content to be well able to know when tags need to be added. I read things every week I’d not read by choice, but I do it because I value what AFF stands for in terms of artistic freedom. And yes, we try very hard to make sure trigger issues are labelled, but the answer isn’t always simple.  

For example, I do not consider the Shota or Loli tags an acceptable substitute for Minor1 or Minor2. They are not clearly defined by age ranges, and are anime-specific. Similarly, Noncon is never a substitute for Rape as far as I’m concerned, and I will not accept Noncon in place of the Rape tag. We actually don’t have much snuff fiction here, and while we all might have varying ideas of what constitutes Contro content, we have a clear label for BDSM as well as for SandM. I’m not sure how specific you want Torture to be defined, but I’d strongly suggest having to add tags for every possible act of torture ever conceived of by the human race would be exhaustive to create and not terribly useful. Despite a personal fondness for the Wicker Man, I can’t imagine Ritual Immolation would be a frequent tag choice. 

Similarly, I would not recommend free-for-all tagging such as I’ve seen elsewhere. It would completely negate any ability to search by tags, a feature we’ve recently been able to expand, and one which has been requested for quite some time. 

But in this particular instance, we were asked to review newly posted material because of unlabeled content. A larger issue was revealed, which resulted in the stories being removed from the site, and which disappointed other readers. The long and short of it is that we’re not going to please all the people all the time, and in this case, I’m not sure anyone came away happy.

[DemonGoddess]

11 hours ago, Desiderius Price said:

The one trouble with tags is they kinda become spoilers, in a way, MCD is the biggie, IMO.  I’m sure the balance was considered long ago, so I put them in while  crossing my fingers that the reader forgets about ‘em before the ending

Thing is, we’re actually pretty flexible with this.  If you cover the main aspects of your story in the open tags, and then add “additional tags at the beginning of the chapter”, you can still keep from acting as your own spoiler.

For example, you have a story which is het, set in an alternate universe, and an angst fest.  So your main tags would be MF AU Angst.  Then, you want to get into something which is a BIG trigger for most readers, such as rape, but it’s ONLY in part of a chapter.  You tag in that chapter, at the top.  It’s still an acceptable form of tagging, if your readers don’t like this particular content, they can skip the chapter and wait on the next one.

[Desiderius Price]

Looking at it from the readers perspective, a sudden change of tags is kinda like bait and switch, IMO, because if it happens after they’ve already invested hours, and potentially hundreds of Kwords, reading the story, only to suddenly have it change.  Outside of a oneshot collection, where each story isn’t really related and hence skippable, it could be rather maddening.  A reminder on a particular chapter, sure, but I’d rather not make it the first introduction of a tag.  That said, as I’ve got WIPs, I’ve had new ones suddenly decide to invade the story, at which point, a chapter-level warning is a good way to let the regular readers know about it (while also updating the story summary).

[Guest SailorNemesis]

Well, I learned a lot.  While this is indeed not the outcome I sought (in several ways), I want to thank the moderators for their swift and educational responses.  I appreciate the work you do here.  AFF remains one of my favorite sites.

[GeorgeGlass]

20 hours ago, BronxWench said:

For example, I do not consider the Shota or Loli tags an acceptable substitute for Minor1 or Minor2. They are not clearly defined by age ranges, and are anime-specific.

I’ve never understood why the shota and loli tags are restricted to anime. Shouldn’t they apply to any underage character, not just underage anime characters?

[BronxWench]

1 minute ago, GeorgeGlass said:

I’ve never understood why the shota and loli tags are restricted to anime. Shouldn’t they apply to any underage character, not just underage anime characters?

Nope. Lolicon is a very specific anime term, and can actually refer to someone indulging in ageplay as a young girl. The term “shota” was also coined based on a particular genre of manga, with older women being attracted to younger males. The Minor1 and Minor2 tags are both age-specific and not gender limited, and apply to any fandom.

[GeorgeGlass]

1 minute ago, BronxWench said:

Nope. Lolicon is a very specific anime term, and can actually refer to someone indulging in ageplay as a young girl. The term “shota” was also coined based on a particular genre of manga, with older women being attracted to younger males. The Minor1 and Minor2 tags are both age-specific and not gender limited, and apply to any fandom.

Definitions seem to vary. I’ve seen “shota” used to refer to anything involving sexual activity with young boys, which is further classified as “straight shota” or “gay shota. I’ve also seen “loli” used to distinguish drawn or otherwise fictional young girls from real ones.