Japanglish in Fanfiction: Must you really, author?

[Triksyness]

I've recently been in the mood for reading some fanfiction for some anime that I used to watch, and I can't help grimacing when at the amount of fics that are riddled with Japanese words inserted into English sentences-- Japanese words that have perfectly acceptable equivalent words in English, and yet the author chooses to use them in their fics anyway. Examples of these words are: urusai, baka, sugoi, hai, gomen, etc.

I just don't understand. Do they think it's cool to include these words? Do they think having these words makes their fic look more authentic or something?

I mean, most of the time, these words they choose to use have loads of alternative English words that carry the same tone or meaning, so it isn't really a matter of something being lost in translation. At the very least, if they're going to use Japanese words, they might as well write the whole line in Japanese, rather than saying something like, "Gomen, for yelling at you." orz

Though, what's even more painful is when authors write the whole sentence in Japanese, but the grammar, etc. is all wrong. I once encountered a fic where the author sometimes releases 2 versions of a chapter-- one with the English dialogue, and the other in Japanese. The latter was more of broken Japanese at best, and made me want to bang my head on the desk. Repeatedly. orz

I can somewhat accept it if there's a disclaimer of sorts that says that the author doesn't really know Japanese. However, there are those who know some basic Japanese grammar, and think that it's enough to write a decent Japanese dialogue. Evidently, they don't know much colloquial Japanese, because all they succeeded in doing was making their characters sound flat.

Is a fic that's not in Japanglish too much to ask? Sometimes, I wish there was a 'No Japanglish here' sign or something, just so I know which ones to skip.

[Melrick]

Couldn't agree more. It makes me want to punch them through the monitor.

[BronxWench]

I'm guilty of it to an extent in an RP I'm in. My RP partner is actually studying Japanese, and I'm dabbling for now until I get off my lazy butt and see if I can take a few classes at uni. But I tend to confine myself to endearments and respectful forms of address. I use a conlang version of elven with roots in Tolkien's work, originally developed by Tel'Mithrim for roleplaying purposes.

When it comes to my original fiction and fan fiction, however, there's not a word of Japanese. I don't write in an anime fandom, and my original works aren't set anywhere near Japan. I agree that it's utterly silly in so many applications where it's done, and when it's obviously just whatever is spat out of Google Translame... ouch....

[reriddle]

I have to agree. The broken Japanese in the middle of stories really bothers me. Mostly because its just so little and meaningless. Most of the words they use are not words that can't be translated into english. I would understand if it were a concept that was not quite translatable. The japanese buzz words do annoy me and distract from whatever narrative there may be.

[sarcastic_honesty]

Personally I don't mind the use of peppered Japanese if it makes sense in some way (Eg: It's a character whose native tongue is Japanese) or the author wants to use a word with no proper English translation. I've also got huge respect for authors who do their research and know what they're talking about when they use fragments of a language as difficult to master as Japanese. But even in these cases it has to actually make sense to work. It drives me crazy when I see what I consider lazy translators. Those are the folks who just slop a bunch of English into babelfish, hit a button to make it Japanese, and just copy and paste that into their story. Half of the time it's a mess because those popular translators spew out the closest equivalence. My ultimate pet peeve is getting trapped in the middle of a chapter where it's nothing but "kawaii desu!". It makes me feel like I'm being told the story by a weaboo.

[the4w5neko]

I don't understand what's wrong with this.

For instance, what's so bad about having Kenshin say "de gozaru" instead of "that it is"?

[BronxWench]

I think the issue readers, including myself, can have with that is if they need to run to Google Translame to get through a bit of dialogue. You can pretty much assume a term of endearment is something sweet and loving, and move past without needing to go see exactly what "watashi no kokoro" means. But if you're writing primarily in English, for readers of English, then you really should try and stick with one language except where it's a concept that can't readily be translated. If you're writing for Japanese speakers, you should be writing ござる, which is the polite form of "to be." I'm pretty sure "de" is either an example of inaccurate Japanese from anime use, or one of those hangovers from katakana, like daylight = deraitu.

[Triksyness]

De is a Japanese particle. When used together with gozaru,it becomes a more polite/formal form of the Japanese copula desu, which means "is/are". Degozaru is stereoypically known to be used by samurai in the Edo era.

Going back to the4w5neko's

question, degozaru in particular shouldn't be added to the end of an English sentence like so:

My name is Kenshin Himura degozaru.

because then it would be like saying:

My name is is Kenshin Himura.

Also, as Bronxwench has mentioned, it's best to stick with English if you're writing an English piece, otherwise most non-Japanese speakers wouldn't know what you're talking about. If you wanted to reflect Kenshin's polite and archaic/medieval way of speech in English, surely it could be done without resorting to sticking Japanese words at the end of sentences.

And I don't really agree with using "that it is" instead of degozaru at the end of the sentences either. In Japanese, one of the major indications of how formal/casual a person's speech is is by looking at the verb/copula used (which as Japanese grammar dictates is found at the end of the sentence) and how it is conjugated. However, that's not really the way we construct formal speech in English. We don't use sentence tags to indicate what formality of speech we use. It's more of how the whole sentence is phrased, rather than sentence tags.

Also, another reason I don't recommend using mixing Japanese words in unless necessary is because it also affects the characterization. If your character keeps bringing up Japanese words that are easily translatable into English (i.e. "Gomen, for yelling at you.", "Urusai! I get it already!", or "Give it up, baka!"), it sounds more like the character is an English-speaking Japanese that breaks into the Japanese language every now and then because that's his first language (and that's putting it kindly, because as sarcastic_honesty has mentioned, oftentimes the characters just end up sounding like weeaboos. It's very painful to read.), rather than a Japanese character that's speaking in English simply because the fic is written in English.

Glad to see that there are many who feel the same way! I would have replied to all of you, but my post's getting long enough as it is.

(Nice avatar though, the4w5neko! I love Sato Takeru. He's really grown up over the past few years. Getting Kenshin's role has been good for him. ^^)

Edited June 7, 2014 by Triksyness

[shannor]

Honestly, I think there may be a middle ground here. To me, it seems perfectly reasonable that simple one word responses like "yeah" could instead be "hai" for a newly arrived and/or distracted/tired/sick native Japanese speaker in a story written in English. Similarly, the reflexive pleases and thank yous that are culturally expected may be blurted out in Japanese before the brain has time to go "hey, wait a minute, you're in an English speaking country, speak English!". Even though I moved from one English speaking country to another, I'm still using a lot of British English turns of phrase and confusing the Americans, and I've been here going on ten years now - I'd imagine it's just as difficult with an English as a second language speaker.

Example time:

The kitsune yawned. He hated red-eye flights. He hated LAX too. As he followed the throngs of people leaving the airport, he bumped into someone, a small old lady, grey haired and wrinkled.

"Sumimasen deshita!" he said, almost reflexively.

Now speaking a sentence that's a jumble of English and Japanese, that's problematic, unless you intend to have the character casting about for the proper word in English.

Bad example time:

"I saw a black cat enter the..." the kitsune paused, brows knitting together in concentration, "...ie?"

"House," the vampire said.

"Ah, yes, house, thank you. I saw a black cat enter the house."

[JayDee]

I was kind've faced with this recently when I was requested to write a story with a guy's OC, where the only Japanese I know is Nintendo. I thought, well, I could just bang stuff in a translator and hope that readers don't form a lynch mob, and then I just had her speak English, and the one bit where she spoke Japanese was written as <"something like this">

Which seemed to work.

[devoid]

I was kind've faced with this recently when I was requested to write a story with a guy's OC, where the only Japanese I know is Nintendo. I thought, well, I could just bang stuff in a translator and hope that readers don't form a lynch mob, and then I just had her speak English, and the one bit where she spoke Japanese was written as <"something like this">

Which seemed to work.

Considering how mangas often use such formatting when the characters are speaking in another language, I don't see why people won't do that in fanfics.

I tend to give honorifics and verbal tics a pass, though (since, most of the time, you can't actually translate the terms, and trying to substitute it with English words would probably sound weird).

[Triksyness]

@Shannor

If the character is supposed to be bilingual, then I have no problem with him mixing the two languages. In many anime fanfiction though, the characters aren't supposed to know English, so it makes them sound out of character instead. Since the author already wrote majority of the character's dialogue in English, suddenly using Japanese words when they have equivalent English words just makes them sound bilingual.

"Hai" is actually one of the most misused Japanese words in anime fanfiction. It's true that it means "Yes", but it isn't always most appropriate affirmative word to answer with. I've encountered a number of fics where the character answered a(n English) question with "hai" and it just came off as awkward. >_<

I just wish people don't use Japanese when it isn't really necessary, and especially if they aren't fluent at it.

@Jaydee

Yeah, like devoid said, marking sentences said in other languages like that is okay.

@devoid

A lot of scanlations/fansubs keep the honorifics, so I don't mind seeing those in fanfiction as well. ^^

Edited June 24, 2014 by Triksyness

[shannor]

Ah, I see what you mean, yes, that would make them seem out of character.

Out of curiosity, is there any real guideline to when "hai" would be an inappropriate response? I think "hai" would be rather a terse reply to a question that requires a slightly more detailed answer, but since I don't speak Japanese beyond the smattering of words I've learned from anime and manga, I honestly don't have a clue.

[JayDee]

Well, I did nearly just have her shout Nintendo.

[Triksyness]

@JayDee

Well, that would have been interesting, to say the least. XD

@Shannor

You're right, "hai" can sound too terse on its own. Depending on the question, some other words should come after it, i.e.:

Hai, wakarimashita. (Yes, I understand.)

Hai, sou desu. (Yes, that's right.)

Hai, [positive form of the verb i.e. "yarimasu"] (Yes, I will.)

"Hai" is a rather polite way of agreeing. This would be okay if you're talking to someone older than you, or in a higher position than you, but if you're talking to your peers, friends, or someone younger than you, it would be more natural to agree by saying "un", "aa", "sou", or just the positive (short) form of the verb you're agreeing too. Though it could also depend on your personality and upbringing too.

Try and read the part entitled "14. Yes/No in Japanese" on THIS PAGE. (Find it via Ctrl+F). It gives a concise explanation of Yes and No in Japanese.

[shannor]

Thank you very much Triksyness, I really appreciate your help, and thank you very much for the link, I'll be sure to read it

[Dean_Wax]

Thank you for the excellent suggestions of what to add to Nathaniel's vocabulary in Candy Hearts Bleed Forever.

I feel the next chapter shall have a lot of honorifics because he acts very Japanese.

[Shinju]

I wonder if sane Japanese people feel the same way when they hear garbled English in every other one of their pop songs . . .

I think it's cute to an extent, but I find it ruins the mood of whatever I'm listening to because I tend to break out in "OhMyGodItsSoCute" hystarical fangirl lauguhter depending on how bad the English is.

I wonder how people from Japan feel about us so hamhandedly trying to assimilate their language as they have done so to ours? Do think its cute or do they hate it?

OmG, I challenge anyone here to write a Hetalia fanfiction where America and Japan have an argument about this

Edited August 9, 2014 by Shinju

[Kurahieiritr]

Thanks for all the insights shared. I think that this topic needs some kind of debate so that a common consensus gets reached. The hardest part of writing anything that involves Japanese anime or manga is finding a safe middle ground when caught in the middle of this kind of debate due to both sides making very specific demands on writers. Everything depends upon the readers input since they are the ones who come to read our stories. Like the Kenshin comments imply, some readers have very specific ideas about what is and is not permissible to substitute with English equivalents. I've had readers who are obsessed with correct address based upon certain social status. I have gotten screamed at a time or two by my readers if I don't have a san attached to certain character names inside the dialog. Such readers say I have to show the proper respect from the other character addressing the higher ranked person in those instances.

I originally wrote all my fanfics in straight, pure English, only to get yelled at for not using cannon character specific Japanese addresses and catch phrases that different characters favor in cannon shows and mangas. Example, one character always says Little brother and that ticks off half of my readers, while the original Japanese term "otouto" ticks off the other half. Same problem applies to "Aniki" versus "big brother" as another example. I cannot find any means to please both sides. I received messages with tons of add this Japanese word comments, so I revised the original Japanese free tales to add the demanded words into my stories. Once the words were added, I got screamed at over switching the words to remove the English equivalents I originally used.

So I guess my question is, "Where is the acceptable middle ground for a writer who has readers that seem quite passionate and polarized as pro and con about this subject of "must use" or "must not use Japanese" in fan fiction grounded story telling?"

I would love to know how best to balance the two sides of my readership on this subject. After receiving messages in my email from both sides, I do ponder the virtue of taking down my stories because of this specific subject matter.

[Shinju]

I would love to know how best to balance the two sides of my readership on this subject. After receiving messages in my email from both sides, I do ponder the virtue of taking down my stories because of this specific subject matter.

It would be sad to have to remove your work because of harrassment from reviewers. I think that you should write in the style you feel most comfortable with and ignore the more picky weeaboos, probably of which a majority of do not know proper Japanese anyway.

I know I give Japanese pop stars / anime voice actors a break when they speak English just because I'd rather find the bright side of the matter (ie: its endearing that they try) rather than be annoyed that what they are saying sometimes sounds downright silly and under practiced to my American born ears. Our languges are very different and mastering one from the other can be very difficult.

I will say this though, I'd rather not sound silly to a Japanese person by slaughtering their language at every oppertunity with frivolity rather than practicing, learning and thinking about what I want to say before I say it. I think that people generally absorb culture through osmosis, meaning they don't think, they just do, or on this case speak or write.

[Kurahieiritr]

It would be sad to have to remove your work because of harrassment from reviewers. I think that you should write in the style you feel most comfortable with and ignore the more picky weeaboos, probably of which a majority of do not know proper Japanese anyway.

I know I give Japanese pop stars / anime voice actors a break when they speak English just because I'd rather find the bright side of the matter (ie: its endearing that they try) rather than be annoyed that what they are saying sometimes sounds downright silly and under practiced to my American born ears. Our languges are very different and mastering one from the other can be very difficult.

I will say this though, I'd rather not sound silly to a Japanese person by slaughtering their language at every oppertunity with frivolity rather than practicing, learning and thinking about what I want to say before I say it. I think that people generally absorb culture through osmosis, meaning they don't think, they just do, or on this case speak or write.

A: I decide that, outside of constantly used address specific words which the cannon characters do abuse in the show, I am removing the Japanese words. I already have started that project. I even posted in my Promote a Story thread and the Rivalry Series Review reply thread that I am trying to get a balance because of a couple of upset reviews over the Japanese words that I originally added to make the Japanese pro side happy. I can only do so much to try and find a happy medium after all. I'm planning to spend tomorrow replacing the chapters that I have managed to get revised today. We shall see how that turns out. I don't get a lot of traffic for the stories so I doubt it will make much difference.

[BronxWench]

It's funny, because I have one story peppered with a bit of Gaelic, and another couple that have some dialogue in elven, and I rarely get the kind of grumbling pro or con that Japanese seems to bring out. I wonder if it's the extreme fascination we have for all things Japanese, a fascination I understand that they share in terms of our Western culture?

[Kurahieiritr]

It's funny, because I have one story peppered with a bit of Gaelic, and another couple that have some dialogue in elven, and I rarely get the kind of grumbling pro or con that Japanese seems to bring out. I wonder if it's the extreme fascination we have for all things Japanese, a fascination I understand that they share in terms of our Western culture?

A: Anything is possible. Elves have always been associated with Gaelic language for so long that multiple generations have strong associations of Gaelic with all things Elvin. I think that it does not catch the same flack because of the strong association of language with the beings. Their long standing Gaelic name has been written in the original form in many published books for over 150 years. Tradition has carried over into most modern fantasy and mythology books which probably plays a major role in the second language acceptance for such stories.

I've never had any problem reading sci fi stories that contain *alien (always made up languages*), Gaelic, African, or any other language in dialog. Authors often used foreign words through the late 80's. Additions of such languages was the main gimmick to remind readers that the beings were speaking in their native tongues and nobody cried foul. Even if readers had no idea what the word meant before checking the book's back glossary, it was very much normal to check for glossaries when buying books for our fun reading. When the PC police began throwing fits in earnest during the late80's and got super active in the 90's, the number of books with multiple languages present evaporated overnight.

The anger with Japanese word editions might be a sign of PC conditioning to become super sensitive. So many issues have gotten the super hard push to be politically correct that everything said or done has the dangerous potential to make people uncomfortable. Innocently intended additions of another language within dialog may actually fit that category, and so people are getting offended due to the belief that only creatures with centuries of tradition may have more than one tongue to speak.

In the ancient past, (1940-ish to 1988) everyone understood such language additions were the highest form of compliment. Now . . . everything is viewed as a cause for offense as often as not. So, I think it very possible that the political correctness crammed down our throats from birth to death since the late 80's could have quite a bit to do with the new aversion. The fear of offending has done much to stifle many forms of art over the last 2 decades.

[DemonGoddess]

For me, it's the throwing in of the words without knowing really what they are, how to use them, and the proper context to use them. Drives me nuts.

[GeorgeGlass]

This is complete speculation, but what the heck: I'd say that unlike Gaelic and Elvish, Japanese is a language to which a lot of your readers--that is, anime fans--have had at least some exposure but in which most of them probably lack substantial expertise. And fans of anything have a tendency to argue vehemently over things that they have just a little bit of knowledge about.