Glowing reviews for very bad fiction?

[DemonGoddess]

Something else everyone seems to be losing sight of here, is that AFF doesn't QC. I think that's rather obvious, yes? So, because we don't QC, one cannot expect us to treat things in the same manner which a site which DOES that, will.

[pittwitch]

<----- Witch chokes on her chili at the mere mention of QC. Will never "read" in a queue again. Nuh uh, nope, not gonna do it.

[Asexual Biped]

I don't understand why this is being argued so fiercely. This is AFF.net, not TtH or FF.net or anything else. The mods and admins will do things their way.

Since we, as the readers, have the right to read the stories and review them, the authors have the right to listen or not. It's their choice as the author if they want to do things their way or take advice from the peanut gallery(us), regardless of if they had a great story or the worst thing on the internet.

If an author wants to write a piece of crap and delete reviews that only aim to help, then that's their problem. You shouldn't be annoyed at them for executing their right as authors on the internet. Just stop reading their crap. There's no need to get vicious over it. And I doubt that making authors unable to delete reviews will make them write better. They'll just ignore the comments altogether and continue writing crap.

P.S. I feel mildly retarded for not knowing what QC is...

[JoeHundredaire]

I just think it demeans the reviewers, that we can put time into a thoughtful review to try and help someone and then have it disappeared because the author has a sandgina over it.

[pittwitch]

P.S. I feel mildly retarded for not knowing what QC is...[/color][/font]

LOL -- think how I feel for having been a part of QC!

I really do see more than one side in this fight. As a reader, that review is MY property. I want control over it.

As a writer, I don't think I own the rights to that review. I may not like it. It may be a troll. But, if it is truly offensive or a problem, I can report it.

As a reader, I'd like to see all the reviews: the good, the bad and the ugly.

As a former mod at a site that does QC, I cringe at the thought of dumping more work on any mod.

[DemonGoddess]

QC=Quality Control

Now, thing is, because we don't censor, and pretty well anything goes here, that means QC is not an option either. I agree with PW, I'd be running away, as fast as I could, if I had to do that too.

Nope. No way in hell.

[Shadowknight12]

I just think it demeans the reviewers, that we can put time into a thoughtful review to try and help someone and then have it disappeared because the author has a sandgina over it.

And isn't that the same attitude a writer gets when they get a review they don't like? "I put time into my story and someone flamed me because they had a sandgina over it."

Some people don't want to improve. They think their style is fine the way it is. They like their Mary Sue characters and their contrived plots, they think that grammar is worthless and that what really matters is that their OC is getting it on with the awesome canon character. They don't take their writing seriously, because to them it's just a wish-fulfilment fantasy to pass the time, one that they just happen to post on this website. They enjoy getting only positive feedback. Forcing them to accept the eyesore of a review they dislike is just as immature as their deleting of negative reviews. You put effort into the review, yes, but the author is not going to listen to you if they dislike it, no matter what happens. So forcing the review on them is just petty revenge. What you propose not only sinks you to their level, it completely turns the situation around so that now the reviewer can exercise their immaturity instead of the author.

For the record, the only time I'd delete a review would be if it was blatant spam or plain trolling. I keep (and reply to, via the forum) every single review I get, regardless of whether I like it or not.

[Asexual Biped]

I just think it demeans the reviewers, that we can put time into a thoughtful review to try and help someone and then have it disappeared because the author has a sandgina over it.

I do agree with you. I would hate to write a helpful review, then later find out it was either deleted or ignored entirely. I don't delete any reviews (granter, I only have a total of 8) and I'd take any concrit as honest helpful advice.

One of the problems is that most, if not all, of the authors on sites like this are amateurs with no desire of getting better as an author because they aren't trying to get published (I'm not either, but I still want to improve my writing). Most are just here to write their fantasy pairings out in fanfics, without caring about what others think of how they write.

Thank you DG! Now I not longer feel retarded.

[hitagashi]

Because I have to put in my two cents, here I am.

As a writer: I appreciate all reviews, no matter what type. However, I do not approve of the flaming and trolling. If you cannot tell a person how to improve I see no point in reviewing a story. This isn't to say I want only tips on improvement. I like reviews that tell me how to improve as much as I love the ones that really say nothing constructive at all. As a writer, I think a review is a review and getting one makes me happy.

As a reader: I like to think before I review. While I rarely review to avoid coming off as rude and to avoid sending the wrong message, I still like to know how I can review by reading the other reviews and the story itself to see the responses. I love the way there is no content control on this site, QCing, after all, is something that I find rather offensive. AFF was made to not be QCed and I like the way it's kept just that way.

As a mod: We have to be a bit sensitive to both readers and writers because we don't want any hissy fits or anything. The work load is large enough as it is and when you add QCing and other things like that to the load that Mom (DG) has already, you make it harder on the others of the mod team as well because we all do the checking on stories and such.

[Danyealle]

Now, thing is, because we don't censor, and pretty well anything goes here, that means QC is not an option either. I agree with PW, I'd be running away, as fast as I could, if I had to do that too.

Nope. No way in hell.

After crying my eyes out, I would quit! LMAO!

[JoeHundredaire]

Dunno how y'all got from "make writers behave like adults and take their lumps if they post shit and people call them on it" to a queue-based quality control posting system that mods would wade through, but to each their own. All I'm saying is, Dany, you asked a question. Your own site policies are to blame for the very problem you started this thread to complain about. The only solution to the problem is to change that.

Edited November 8, 2010 by JoeHundredaire

[ApolloImperium]

Okay... After wading through ALL of the sludge in the last 3 pages and 1 post, since it seems to have gone from reviews on bad fic to the ability to delete reviews, lemme break it down.

Cause: FF.Net became draconian.

Effect: AFF.Net was created to give true freedom to both the authors and readers.

Cause: AFF.Net is against any subjective quality control.

Effect: Authors can post anything that they like and so long as it's not just an AN and doesn't fall into our definition of a troll/spam story. Even then it takes ALOT for us to take down a story and when I say alot, heaven forbid you could see some of the discussions re: troll/spam stories that happen in the background.

Cause: AFF does not quality control

Effect: People post stories that not everyone wants to read, or feel should have a place in an archive.

Effect: People with thin skins post work and get crit they may or may not like.

While it's not ideal for everyone, that is what the site was created for. I should know, I was the one Ayla handed the site off to and before she did, we have many many long conversations about the creation and her dream.

I think the issue that people are forgetting is that we welcome anyone and everyone over 18 so long as they follow our rules. Because of this, you will have writers that feel entitled to post drivel. That's why we exist. Readers have the right to review or not review. If a writer doesn't like it, they can delete it. That's up to them. It's then the readers right to never read another story they post and never review them again. This site is all about freedom and as such, it will be staying that way. Until someone can give me a well thought out, valid argument as to why I should remove a writers freedom to control what gets posted on their review board, it stays.

Think of it this way: You write a blog. As the owner of the blog you can remove comments if you choose. Now will a good percent of responsible blog writers leave up all comments unless they are flames? Yes, but some will get pissy and take them down. Some blogs even moderate comments so some comments may never even make it through if they are too harsh. Readers can either keep visiting and commenting, or go elsewhere. That is how I consider stories and the review boards attached.

Now, before I continue, let me put things into perspective. These stats are according to Alexa:

FF.Net: Ranked 1,519th (US only traffic rank - 933)

AFF.Net: Ranked 12,766th (US only traffic rank - 6,769)

TtH: Ranked 74,968th (US only traffic rank - 22,176)

Dokuga: Ranked 153,036th (US only traffic rank - 28,748)

Now unfortunatly, the only site other than FF.Net that was used to illustrate a point is TtH, so for my purposes, I will be using that site. My apologizes to those that write for it, work for it, etc.

So please keep in mind when you are comparing a site such as TtH to AFF, we get almost 6 times the overall traffic that TtH does. AFF has 113,939 stories currently posted, TtH according to thier site has over 14,000. Some other interesting stats? AFF has 456,194 chapters posted and 1,361,274 reviews posted.

I don't know much about TtH other than what has been posted here and what is available on the site rules, but if I had to hazard a guess I would assume that it was created specifically with the rules that are outlined. They may have been adjusted over the years, but are most likely the same. This means that on average TtH will have good quality fics which means that TtH likely has responsible authors. This translates to the authors being able to handle concrit and therefor TtH admin/mod staff wouldn't see a large percentage of reports on reviews.

AFF has over 8 times the amount of stories that TtH does - Assuming that the ratio for reviews needing to be removed would be the same, for every 1 review TtH reviews and removes, we would have to review/remove 8. On top of the moderators daily sweep for issues, reviewing stories for corrections, handling communication with users and moderating the forums.

Some more AFF history? I remember when authors couldn't delete their own reviews and before the captcha went up. I remember digging through the database cleaning off spam and trolls and other such reviews. I remember having to handle reports from whiny authors and yes, back then we did explain the difference between concrit and flame, but it was so very time intensive.

Quite frankly, trying to compare the sites (or AFF to any other archive) is like comparing apples to oranges. They are both fruits and round, but completely different in texture, how you eat them, taste, etc.

Final verdict: Authors can and will be able to delete reviews as they see fit.

Personal note: I think it's childish, but I'm not here to judge. I'm here to help maintain the site and keep it open for everyone.

[Asexual Biped]

Dunno how y'all got from "make writers behave like adults and take their lumps if they post shit and people call them on it" to a queue-based quality control posting system that mods would wade through, but to each their own.

You can't make people act like adults and take criticism by preventing their ability to remove reviews. What we're saying is, if they don't want a review because they feel it's "mean", they'll swamp the mods with requests to remove it. Now multiply that by the amount of crappy writers that delete reviews and the poor mods won't have time to do anything else besides wade through reviews to see if they're actual flames/spam or just concrit.

[Danyealle]

All I'm saying is, Dany, you asked a question. Your own site policies are to blame for the very problem you started this thread to complain about.

Actually, if you go back and reread what I wrote, I wasn't complaining. I was ASKING A QUESTION because I was curious as to what everyone else though. I've read plenty of bad fictions over my time and some that were so rife with bad spelling and grammar that I downloaded them and fixed them to make them more readable. However, there are some truly bad fictions I've enjoyed for various reasons.

Bad fiction is everywhere on every site that posts fiction, fan fiction or not. And I don't always mean that it's full of spelling errors, bad grammar, whatever, some is just plain bad for various reasons. To say we have to deleted all bad fiction takes away the readers option to read something they may like. I have a friend that reads some of the worst fiction you could ever imagine and has a tolerance for bad writing, as in spelling, grammar, etc., that I have ever seen in anyone, most of us our eyes and brain would be bleeding from some of what she likes, but she adores it and will continue reading. To censor that would take away her choice to read something she enjoys just because someone arbitrarily decides it's bad for whatever reason. That's not up to any of us to do, it's their choice in the matter.

So I think, somewhere along the way, this thread has gone a direction that is way off track. It was a simple couple questions that I was curious about is all.

[Rain7777]

I think this is a difficult realm really.

As a writer, at first I didn't get any reviews about my grammar or spelling. I got a few when I had format problems but nothing major and I got a beta-reader off my own back who checked the basics for me. However, as my story went on I started getting more critical reviews, pointing out some problems with the fic. I started in 2007 and my writing style has progressed, and I think improved. I got helpful and critical reviews where they made suggestions. I think that's a key word here. being able to suggest things or give advice rather than listing the negatives is a great thing for a writer. (Or at least I think so.) I now have a great beta-reader who 'teaches' me as she edits my work. I'm learning a lot about grammar and punctuation that I didn't know about before. And I thought I had the basics down! I have even had emails in which I was able to throw ideas and questions back and forth about the layout and pace of some chapters. It was really helpful.

However, from a reader's point of view, I can understand how hard it is to be critical and constructive without sounding critical. There seems to have been a boom recently in young writers, those who have just turned 18. I was talking to one a while back who asked for my advice and opinion on her fic. I edited the first chapter to her and explained where things were wrong grammatically (I am no expert but my beta-reader has been teaching me.) I began to explain that she swaps the tense, (trying to remember an example :S) and the person. So it was;

'They kept their hands...'

and in the next sentence it was;

'then we both screamed..."

I tried to explain this and said that the tense kept being changed from past to present tense but the writer didn't know what I meant by tense.

It leaves you in an awkward situation, because I will never claim that I'm an expert or know that much but I so wana help other writers as a reader and reviewer, like my readers have helped me. I feel my writing has improved from it and I definitely have a better understanding of grammar now. But where do we draw the line? I've had negative reviews before, that make your heart sink. Some are just uncalled for, not constructive at all. You think; why did you even leave a review? why did you read it if you don't like it. (Especially when warnings are up everywhere and suddenly someone is outraged about something that was pre-warned.) I've learnt that you can't please everyone. Every writer should and does write for themselves. So as readers I think we need to respect that and make sure our reviews aren't clouded in self-righteous negativity. I think if you can offer advice in a positive way then the writer will be more willing to take your advice on board.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could all voice our opinions without upsetting each other?

Thing is it will upset some people. I think reviewers need to be mindful of that but if they think they can help the writer then I think con/crit reviews laden with advice should be left. But remember positives people! Positive reviews with friendly advice!

B xx

[Guest Snowfall]

I think it depends on perspective. There are many variations. Are you just sharing your hobby with your close friends? Do you just want an outlet for plot bunnies that won't get out of your head? Are you attempting to achieve something in particular? Are you attempting to hone your skills? If so, what area? How lofty are your goals?

Let's say that there is a guy who merely wants to get a reaction out of his friends. He posts a story, not really caring about quality, asks his friends to read, rate, and review. His friends don't want to alienate him and it isn't any skin off their back to give him glowing marks. Heck, some of them have probably never read fan fiction before and may not read his story at all. And, he doesn't care one way or another. Let's say that you have a young female that wants to see a particular plot written and no one else is doing it, and she can't talk anyone into it. She goes out on a limb and does it herself, even knowing that her writing is subpar. That takes courage and her friends are going to cheer her on because they know her purpose, which isn't to be an example of high literary standards. They are less likely to give a constructive critique for fear of hurting her feelings, and will review based on her efforts to actually get the story written and posted. For them, that's an achievement. Other youngsters only do it to be popular with their friends, or to be able to say that they did something bold and brave. It's a toy for them, nothing real serious.

Many who have been in fan fiction for years see it as a whole community, whereas the examples above see a small sandbox in a playground. They have a small corner and aren't really concerned about the rest. It's just them and their friends. If someone else wants to pop in, the more the merrier. It isn't a competition, or a regiment for improvement.

Then there are other motives/perspective. I can't speak for others, but I can speak for myself. When I started, it was just me. I'd never done anything online and hadn't even heard of instant messengers. Had it not been for my daughter, I wouldn't have even known that I could write and post on fan fiction sites. Once informed, I just wanted to see if I could regain the vocabulary and grammar skills I'd lost when cat scratch fever gave me seizures and took away my ability to read and write for two years. At the time, I was alone in a comfortable little corner and had no desire to be exposed to a competition in popularity. I wanted constructive criticism and a way in which to determine whether or not my skills were improving. This system does not take into account what is said on a review board, or what a fic rating is set to be; it's pure numbers--reviews divided by hits. I wanted to be realistic. These were my motives. I ignored the stories who drew ridiculously large numbers because of smut. I was fair and acknowledged that my percentages would never reach those who had an established following or who were exceptionally talented. My goal wasn't to have the best numbers, but to do better than mediocre. I had to account for the years a fic had been up because it garners hits just from people checking for updates, just like all do. There is also the number of chapters, the way in which a fic is written (cliffies, polls, etc.), how often it updates. All those things make a discernible impact. Rates change when population and rules change. Reviews took a big hit when the security program was put in place and they still aren't at prior levels. Hence, a newer story will naturally have a lower rating than a comparable very old one. Different fandoms, genres, categories will have different rates. Different sites will have different rates.

On the very outer fringes, you have trolls, with many accounts, who write and review their own stories, start fake flame wars between their different sock puppets, which raises review numbers. Don't ask me why this is done. Probably for the sheer entertainment value of snaring an unaware outsider. If you guys can track IP's now, there's a good chance that it doesn't go on as much.

What you really need to do is decide what 'you' want out of fan fiction. Constructive critiques are usually far and few between. They are very helpful gems, but the desire for them shouldn't preclude simple encouraging comments. Both have value, especially to the person writing them. If you want more feedback on your own writing, there is no reason you can't ask your readers to come to the forums and answer specific questions for you concerning what you are wanting to achieve with your story and whether or not you are accomplishing that. Start a thread and leave them a link to the thread. Hm, I like that idea. It might help pick up traffic on the forums. I'll ask DG what she thinks. Some authors use Formspring to communicate with their readers. If readers get comfortable with you on a one-on-one basis, they're more likely to point out grammatical errors and plot holes. They'll probably be more likely to rib you for late updates, too.

Overall though, don't stress yourself out over inflated numbers on stories that lack constructive critiques. They don't have a bearing on your work and are no reflection on you or your work. If what you want is high numbers, knock yourself out with writing smut stories. I'd get too bored with that though. I'll read a story with low ratings just to see if it is as bad as the marks show because trolls can cause a lot of damage. Just because a person doesn't have the highest ranking doesn't mean they aren't producing great work. Different people just have different tastes.

OMG! I actually bought a hardback in Walden Books and it turned out to be full of grammatical, punctuation, and spelling errors. On top of that, the book was almost all dialogue and sex--terribly unbalanced, and didn't further the plot of the series at all. We're talking published materials here. It's not content that sells a work as much as it is good salesmenship and a willingness to hack and slaughter your writing at a publisher's request. Fan fiction isn't usually about someone's livelihood, but if you want a large following, you have to know what they like and you need to be willing to give it to them--without maiming them. LOL It's good practice, writing for the masses, a good place to find out what does and doesn't work. But, you need to recognize when something doesn't apply to that experience--the anomalies--and just ignore them.

I know that we ALL have seen this one... you open a fiction because you see it had a score of 5 out of 5 and glowing reviews only to find that it is so poorly written and has such bad grammar that it's all but unreadable. Then you begin to wonder just how it got those reviews and the rating it has.

My question is this... are people who do such a thing doing an author a bad turn by only giving praise and not pointing out serious issues? Does it help them in any way other than to feed their ego? Should people really make those reviews and ratings count by giving the story just what it deserves rather than artificially elevating it? What do you think?

[Need2ScreamNow]

While I think the reviewer has good intentions, they're not doing anything to better the writer. I love the praise I get on my fics, but my favorite reviews are the ones that point out what's wrong. They're more substantial and they give me a warm and fuzzy because that's the reader that enjoyed the story enough they read it closely and now want to better it. Reviewers that leave nothing but candy and sunshine reviews aren't helping anything. I think any writer should want to improve their skills, but how can they improve if no one tells them there's something wrong.

I try to leave substantial reviews, sometimes people think I'm just ripping their story apart but I'm not. I just want to help them convey their stories to the best of their abilities.

[kickback]

I can say there are times when that honestly does bother me, as a writer and a reader.

What bothers me more, are the stories that have a high number of hits but hardly any reviews at all...and, I hate to say it, but stories that are pwop that get dozens of reviews just for that fact alone, vs the stories that try to have a decent plot and are executed fairly well. Sometimes it seems like authors will include a sex scene just to get more reviews and hits for their story (this goes for published works too), and those that may not choose to include such a thing (or touch upon them very lightly) are over looked.

Sure, the title of this community might be called AFF for a reason, but there are other adult themes outside of sex. I don't mean to sound like I have a problem with the people who choose to write about pwop, or sex in general (I do it too), it's just a personal peeve when sometimes, all a long and 'intricate' story has going for it are the sex scenes.

[DemonGoddess]

@kickback-

Totally and completely agree. I cannot tell you, how often in the course of modding and/or clean up (moving things around and what not); I've seen many, many stories which are quality writing with nary a review. Yet stories which are pointless, and frankly, hack jobs, get tons. That's not to say ALL stories with many reviews are hack jobs. It's something I never will understand.

But, that's my opinion as a READER as to story quality.

[kickback]

@kickback-

Totally and completely agree. I cannot tell you, how often in the course of modding and/or clean up (moving things around and what not); I've seen many, many stories which are quality writing with nary a review. Yet stories which are pointless, and frankly, hack jobs, get tons. That's not to say ALL stories with many reviews are hack jobs. It's something I never will understand.

But, that's my opinion as a READER as to story quality.

Oh lordy, I can only imagine!

It's especially fun as a writer when you request crits and even comments, and for the most part receive very few, yet one who does not request either one receives a boat load of both (even if some of the crits are so inane they make no over-all difference in the writing or the story).

I agree that it's something I will never understand. Makes it no less frustrating, especially if you really want to discuss the idea with that particular fandom or would love to discuss similar ideas/situations that have cropped up within the universe and have a good ol' discussion about the fandom in general.

[Hobgoblin]

I read a story called "Plant Food" that was horribly written and generally became more and more awkward with each paragraph. But the overall idea was so good that I went in and fixed up the mistakes. Maybe it's not so much how it's written, but the appeal of the content.

[Jaded_Star]

Why is everyone assuming the only reason the author would choose to delete a review is because it's negative? This isn't a problem I have, but I'm sure some authors have readers who get into a dialogue in the review section. If there is something keeping useful reviews from being easily accessible to readers, it would make sense to delete them. The mods seem to have enough to deal with without adding review deletion to it.

[Surrealian]

I think it's like this. No one can learn ANYTHING, nor would they have any motivation to do so, if they are getting praised for what they are already putting out. People want praise, if they aren't praised, they'll strive to be better. Like a kid that sucks at a sport, but gets a trophy anyway. The truth hurts, if you can't take criticism, why are you writing?

There is ALWAYS room for improvement with writing. ALWAYS ! ! !

[Anesor]

Reviews and criticism that are related the the item reviewed should be a mix of carrot and stick. There are excellent writers, professional and not, who get many carrots. And there are sloppy or beginner stories that really need to listen more to the 'negative' comments, in order to improve.

But they shouldn't be all stick, as the idea is to encourage, not smother a new writer. New writers are more easily smothered, and it doesn't serve to be harsh someone who is earnestly trying. Being nasty doesn't prove anything, and some reviewers get their jollies on being asses.

[Surrealian]

Reviews and criticism that are related the the item reviewed should be a mix of carrot and stick. There are excellent writers, professional and not, who get many carrots. And there are sloppy or beginner stories that really need to listen more to the 'negative' comments, in order to improve.

But they shouldn't be all stick, as the idea is to encourage, not smother a new writer. New writers are more easily smothered, and it doesn't serve to be harsh someone who is earnestly trying. Being nasty doesn't prove anything, and some reviewers get their jollies on being asses.

Oh, well, yes. It doesn't have to be nasty. Constructive criticism was what I was refering to, but some people take a helpful review as a mean one. Bringing someone down doesn't do anything, but rewarding them instead of helping them is just as unproductive.