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This is AFF, we love stories around here, especially if there’s stripping involved In the Potter fanfics that I did write, I’d switch a bit too often, IMO, between 1st and 3rd. Since then, I’ve kinda formed my own rules. I’ll avoid 1st because there’s a lot of “I’s” not to mention it’s tougher to remember the main character’s name. When I started SR, I did a utterly detached, third person, no-mind-reading, but I’ve come to let a bit slip in if it saves a lot of awkward exposition/dialogue, or as a hint to the reader (ie, “lied” or “changed subject”) so they know there’s something off. I think it came down to .. I want the narrator to be truthful, always truthful, but the characters can lie and get it wrong So, which dialect of Klingon are you’re looking for? A google search claims there’s at least eighty. If the author is really wanting to show their bilinguistic skills, there’s no reason they can’t have English subtitles when it’s meant to be understood.

The trouble with made up languages is that it’s very hard to guess how much your audience will tolerate or enjoy. I was having fun making up language/culture for my original story, but realized much later that it was going to force readers to keep referring to a glossary or they miss important emotional context of the story. I hate that myself, and it takes a really special story to make me put up with it for long. When a published romance opens with a eight page phrase book, I put it down. Few there avoid pretentious overuse, instead of a spice. Yeah, there’s some geek subcultures where there is an existing language or two. (I would not like to get caught between some klingons and elves) but I want to remember that I want to appeal to more than the ubergeeks. (so next time I tackle revisions of that novel, I’m going to gut the language) I use an occasional existing slang or invective from my current fandom, but even now I’m considering using a longer quote because using that other language has an extra emotional weight for the one character that literally cannot be said by that character otherwise. I’ve been testing it in snippets for my own use, and expect to put translations in a chapter afterward… for that chapter. But how common does a slang, or how clear the context have to be, before I’m a sleemo if I don’t offer a translation?

I admire that: that you’re putting so much effort into what you feel you need to improve. I could tell a story about how I discovered and grew to love 3rd limited POV, but I won’t because I don’t wanna annoy the mods. Yes. I have a story. I’m that much of a writing nerd. I’m not so sure my personal rules for languages would apply to fandoms like Star Trek or anything Tolkien, just because of what you mentioned. In fandoms where there are complex languages, the fans have already developed their love for something that you’d need to ease them into if it were an original. I don’t read or write high fantasy or deep sci fi, but I’m not sure my rules would apply there either. Obviously, since it worked for Tolkien, some original writers are able to do things other writers would balk at, and do them successfully. Though, in my not-so-humble opinion, plenty do them unsuccessfully too. You know your audience, and you should absolutely give them what they love.

Of course, there’s many instances where people would not be using English. But if the perspective character understands the language, there’s no reason the reader shouldn’t be able to read it in English. Personally, I think there are many ways to show a rich history and culture without actually writing out another language. As a reader, having to rely on exposition to understand dialogue is tedious and takes me out of the story. I get more culture out of a well placed insult or endearment than lines of what would be gibberish to me. I love other languages. I love when other languages and cultures get represented in fiction. I’d like to enjoy that representation and get absorbed into the story without exposition or confusion kicking me out of it. Doesn’t mean you can’t do it. Doesn’t even mean that I will hate it if you have conversations written out en francais. Just means I probably will hate it lol, but there’s a small chance that a writer could do it so epic and awesome that it sucks me right in.

I’ll use it on that rare occasion (noting it to be translated by “google/babelfish/etc”), generally if I want to make it clear that a message/conversation isn’t being understood due to language differences, as I prefer to showing over telling.

It was short and it hurt the point that he wanted to get across, I agree completely. “Hey, don’t do this because it’s bad. Kthnxbye!” Okay?...

The article itself was short, really short, because I kinda expected a longer explanation, like how it was indicative of bad style, etc, not just a barking-the-order type of thing.

Recently, I had a conversation with a friend regarding the use of other languages within a written work (ostensibly written in English in this case, although it could be expanded to include English in any other language novels). In this case, I was discussing the entire language created by myself for Blood Prize (Straxian). The discussion turned to how much of a different language is too much. I have nigh an English-Straxi Dictionary going on in my files specifically for the use of this. Not to mention the creation of gender nominative words and sentence structures. (Does this make me insane? Probably...) To me, if the language is used correctly, it can add to a background and cultural aspect of a character and race. The use of a different language from English (in this case) allows me the immersion into said culture and the novel. Admittedly, I don’t want sixteen chapters of a language I don’t understand, but the occasional touch or even exchange in (and I’ll just use mine) Straxi is a reminder that this isn’t human and that the other people do have their own history. But… How much is too much for you? How far do you go in order to create a language for your tale? Have you or would you create one? I’d like to hear your thoughts.

Definitely! If the author wants to show off, or wants to indulge in a fantasy language they created, or they’re just obsessed with languages and enjoy playing with them, all the more power to them. I respect that kinda passion and creativity. I probably won’t enjoy that part of their stories, but I grudgingly accept that not everyone and everything needs to cater to me.

Oh my goodness!! I love it!! While I personally have difficulty with using a ‘created language’ in my writings, I most definitely and absolutely spend an enormous amount of time researching and developing the various aspects of culture for my original works. Just like in ‘real life’ there are so many different cultures, I want that same ‘richness’ in my stories, complete with social customs, beliefs, politics, etc. I think this ‘setting of mixed cultures’ helps to build and expand the possibilities for creating tension, intrigue, and other things that can pull the reader into the story. It gives them ‘good guys’ and ‘bad guys’ to both love and/or hate as they root for whichever one ‘does it’ for them LOL I also brought this topic up in a discussion with a few other writer friends of mine and their feelings were pretty similar to mine, as well as something you said about ‘slang’ terms. I brought up in that discussion one of my favorite authors, Mercedes Lackey and her Heralds of Valdemar Series. There is a group of people in her story that most definitely have their own entire language, but she didn’t use it a lot in the story, just dropped a word here and there when a character from that particular group of people could not think of how to express something to someone outside of their group. But she would have that character go right into an explanation of what that word meant in their language. That worked out really well in my opinion.

Se ijin shan Erisiche halshaten? And what, are you saying I don’t write epic alien languages that leave you breathlessly wanting more language from them? ;). But, yes, I do agree that the author probably shouldn’t have an entire chapter between characters speaking different languages without A.) established the language to the point that it is understood (there’s a great scene in STIII that actually illustrates this well, but no one wants to hear that, I’m sure...) or B.) having some way that they can translate without pulling someone out of the story in such a time. And in highly romantic or emotional scenes, there’s definitely a point where the conversations should be understood, preferably in a language that’s understood…

I’m pretty sure everyone who writes has a story like that. I, personally, love the 3rd Omniscient as it allows me to explore a wild, wide variety of both the characters and events as they unfold without having the worry about keeping Joe Blow from Idaho in the middle of everything. I read a book where this author wanted to keep his character involved in every major point in that universe (reference point, Star Wars). It came off really jumbled and confuzzled (yes, I’m using that word, it’s going to be the next Quiz!); especially when the events were like: He has no reason to be there… But this kind of got off the rails here… Yes, the balance of the Non-English to Reader Patience is always a tricky subject. I do provide a translation in the main text, usually from one of the other characters or just after they say it, in order to not have people running throughout a book trying to find out what it means. (ie. ”Jin se kahlo.” I love you.) But I do understand what you’re saying. Obviously, I’m in the minority here in loving to see alien languages that show a rich culture and not just someone who wants an alien without having to background anything (… I’m looking at you TOS...)… In my somewhat outnumbered opinion, the development of a language shows a culture and, especially if the MC is an alien interacting with humans, would not, necessarily, use English (as an example) in every day conversation, either. Am I just rambling? I feel like I’m rambling... I’m probably not making sense either… Working nights really does a number on brain cells...

Absolutely. Showing over telling is my preference with most things too, but I usually write in a character’s perspectives. (Limited 3rd or even 1st) so I try to write true to their experiences, if that makes any sense. If you’re sitting there listening to someone speaking a language you don’t understand, it’s unlikely you’ll catch every word they’re saying. It’ll sound like a string of vaguely familiar or completely unfamiliar syllables. It’ll usually get written out in my story, (hopefully) as an active descriptive sentence, rather than dialogue. Unless the perspective character would understand it, in which case, I’ll write it out in English in italics. Honestly, I’m not sure what I’d do in omniscient 3rd. I haven’t written in that POV in like 10 years lol. Rules might be a bit different I imagine.

Using other languages in a story is a real iffy situation for the most part. I personally only use it in my Tolkien related fanfiction, even then it’s primarily limited to greetings, acknowledgments, or other short (2-3 word) phrases. But I do not use another language in any of my original works. I think a lot of that depends on the ‘audience’ as well, such as with the Star Trek fans, I had a few friends years ago who enjoyed bothering the crap out of everyone around them by talking to each other mostly in Klingon (shaking my head). Similarly, with Tolkien, there are a lot of people who take the courses to learn it and use it excessively. Which isn’t a problem as long as it’s not entire sentences or a full conversation. I have a large Sindarin vocabulary and understand what they are saying, with a few exceptions. Regardless, it’s a personal choice if the author wants to do that, but it’s something that can be viewed as a huge distraction to some readers.

Ohhh yes. I love endearments in other languages. Dragon Age Inquisition; what was it Iron Bull calls the MC? Kadan? I love that. If timed right, it can be sooo powerful. If timed wrong, it can be super cheesy lol.

Let me start by saying I am fairly decent in Elvish, have a working knowledge of draconic and Ilythiiri, and have a few phrases in Klingon under my belt, just to establish my seriously geeky credentials. I use endearments in other languages. I might throw in a sentence or two, if my character is in a situation where the person with them has no clue what they’re saying. In that case, I want the reader to be as confused as the listener. Currently, I’m abusing Welsh, because I can, but I’ve mangled Irish Gaelic for my own purposes, too. And in fandoms, I do use the conlangs from those fandoms, because I expect my readers to understand the words and phrases, too. I guess that puts me on the fence, so to speak. I do use other languages, I don’t always translate or include a glossary, but I don’t do entire paragraphs or even frequent full sentences in those languages.

Too me, as a reader, too much of another language can take me right out of a story. I don’t want to have to read dialogue in another language and then have the author translate in narration or have to keep referring to a glossary or authors note to try and decode it myself. It can easily come off as self-indulgent. I’m sure some writers do it well enough that they can get away with being indulgent. I mean, there are whole sects in geek culture who have learned Klingon (You can find courses to learn it!) and elvish. Some people like that kinda thing. Not me. But some people. For me, it has to fit organically. And to fit organically, as a writer, I’ve made rules for myself when I include other languages. If it’s in the perspective of someone who understands the language, then it will be written in English, in italics, with tags clearly stating they’re speaking in this other language. If the perspective is of someone who doesn’t understand the language, then only bits and pieces they’ll realistically pick up will be written out. If the speaker is speaking English, but throwing in slang words, such as ‘Ese’, ‘vato’, ‘gringo’, ‘Tabernacle’, etc, then the word is used with italics. And in this case, use them sparingly, unless its one word used frequently so the reader doesn’t constantly have to google or go back in the story to find the meaning. To me, full sentences would be a big no-no. I can’t think of a reason in which I can justify them. Much less full conversations.

Thanks as always for the review and feedback. However I think you've got yourself completely the wrong end of the stick. You couldn't be more wrong about Faith – she doesn't want to be, or see herself as, a man - or as in a male role at all! She's completely female and really, quite feminine with only very slight butch tendencies but she is absolutely *not* masculine. She's a lesbian Top – perhaps, though I dislike the label, a dominatrix - though in fact, while she is sexually dominant she is solely Joyce's Dominant. In fact that might in some ways be the alternative title of the story! But beyond that she is a woman who loves women; and one woman in particular. In fact the idea that she's playing some sort of male role would really offend her. Moreover she certainly sees herself – and Joyce sees it as well – as a romantic. I frequently describe them as lovers for a reason. I think you've misread or misunderstood the whole premise, and one of the central themes of my story if you can't see that it's a romantic love story – a kinky one certainly – but one in which Joyce's seduction and ‘conversion‘ are based on her falling in love with, and coming to accept the feelings she has for, Faith; and to treasure the way those feelings are reciprocated by her lover. And at the same time what Faith feels for Joyce – feelings that Faith has had for a long time – is equally deep. She may be Joyce's Dominant, and at times a harsh, demanding lover but Faith is quite as much in love with her submissive as Joyce is with her Mistress. Their relationship is a night/day/yin-yang/push-pull thing in which, without the dominant there is no submissive ave neither can find what they want and need. They both need each other equally and their love for one another is completely interdependent. So Faith is not intended to be some uncaring, ersatz male, interested only in taking what she can from Joyce. Yes there's a lot of sex – kinky and frankly unrealistic – because in the end this is supposed to be, from the outset, a written sex-comic – but the sexual content is both meant to be entertaining and erotic, and also to express the intensity of the two protagonists’ physical love which in turn is a reflection of their deep and deepening emotional, romantic love. So while you’re right that I've tried to create a sort of inverted 50's romance – with a relationship that would have been completely frowned upon at the time – there is definitely no element of gender roleplay intended. That 50's housewife paradigm is just a conceit. And you shouldn't look at Faith’s use of dildos as being wanting to be male – the ability to penetrate Joyce is more about domination – and, at the same time, pleasure for Joyce – than anything else. As for her being patient or otherwise: in the early stages it was all about keeping Joyce off balance and disoriented, and vulnerable - receptive to seduction and susceptible to domination; and then later it's meant to reflect the urgency of their ongoing passion. I have to admit that I'm a bit disappointed that you've managed to come to these conclusions, because to get to a point so far from what I’m trying to portray must mean my writing has failed. I'm afraid your hope that Faith becomes Buffy's step-mom (and Kendra becomes her aunt) are going to be disappointed - I'm just not interested in exploring that. And in my romance story Faith just isn't interested in any other women - that's really important to me. I also struggle as to why on earth the consensual relationship of Tara, Kennedy and Willow would attract your disapproval? What in their conduct could you disagree with? That they are engaged in a form of polygamy? It may not be how you would choose to live your life; nor how I would either – but it seems to make them happy! And I just want to portray these characters finding happiness. I'd like to do something more with Satsu – another Intermezzo scene – though I'm not yet sure what! By the way Buffy only has 2 ex-girlfriends – Faith and Willow - so no deal there either I'm afraid. Anyway thanks again for your thoughts.

Pet PEEEEVES, omg you guys do not want to get me to start bitching because I will literally never stop, lol. I agree with so, so many of these. But here’s one that doesn’t happen too often but when it does, it pisses me off SO MUCH: writers who tell you not to describe your character’s physical appearance because it ‘ruins the reader’s mental image’. Fuck your image, my dude I mean look, I’m not the kind of girl to go off on three-page character descriptions from hair and eye color all the way to the single, curly hair on their left big toe, but firstly, I’ve had readers say they wish they had more physical description to picture the story better in their head and secondly, I tend to write stories set in metropolitan cities with lots of ethnic diversity. That diversity happens to be important to the story and to me! Now unless I give every POC character a ridiculous caricature of an ethnic name, that is just not going to get across without a physical description so PLEASE LET ME HELP YOU

I'm not going to argue that there are some crossovers that beg to never meet (Twilight / Muppets would be right up there with Sin City / Teletubbies) . . . but a (hopefully, reasonably) talented writer can take two seemingly unrelated sets of books or movies and cross them into something interesting and palatable if they have good writing talent and a proficient imagination. I've actually seen Star Wars crossed with Leave It To Beaver done WELL, but by an extraordinarily talented writer. Crossovers in general get a terrible wrap because many canon bible beaters think no one has the right to pollute the pristine little imaginary worlds some writer was gracious enough to create for them - gee - that's too bad (and tough shit). I'd much rather see one well done crossover than hmmmm . . . FIVE HUNDRED more Twilight one shot suck faces . . . or FIFTY more Southern Vampire Series Eric / Sookie have the "talk" scenerios . . . or any more poorly written Haldir / Glorfindel / insert favorite elf's name here fucked someone up the ass slash that was attempted by someone who's probably never had sex before and wouldn't honestly know what a realistic orgasm or a well described blow job was if they were given a lifetime subscription to a porn channel I personally like crossovers, and I'm not ashamed to say that. I read them - and I write them - and I write them about vampires too, although MY vampires are real bloodsucking disembowling types who do NOT sparkle - ever. (Perhaps in my next crossover I'll send some over to the meet up with the sparkley ones . . . bet I could stop that scintillating nonsense!)