What Happen To The Procrastination Area?

[Guest Blackadder]

Are there no longer games to help with the writers block? I used to spend way to much time procrastinating in the arcade and strangely, I really miss that. Has it been moved to another area or is it all gone completely forever and ever? Also, what does everyone think about the Ao3 archive? Has anyone opened an account over there? What do you guys think of the site and the format? Is it worth it? Or is this site better and in what aspects?

[GeorgeGlass]

I’ve been posting on AO3 for a while now. I’d say it’s pretty similar to AFF. They have a kudos feature, which is nice, but I tend to get fewer comments on my stories there than I get here. 

[Desiderius Price]

I’ve used both archives.  I admit, I prefer AO3 over AFF for story posting; better UI, I can use style sheets instead of text-formatting-games, better search, and more statistics (Kudos, word counts, etc).  They do more aggressive fund raising, so likely a fully funded coding staff, something AFF lacks.   However, the forums here… AO3 doesn’t have that, which means the staff/member interaction is way better here.  As to procrastination, we still have the chatbox, the successor to the shoutbox.

[WillowDarkling]

AO3 does not care in the slightest about plagiarism and even banned one of our users for calling out a person who had plagiarised them. 

We on the other hand take plagiarism very seriously, and we deal with it swiftly. 

And we’re all volunteers here. We don’t get paid for this. 

That’s my two cents.

And also, it’s a bit of a kick in the gut to be using our forum to ask about another story archive. 

[BronxWench]

1 hour ago, Desiderius Price said:

I’ve used both archives.  I admit, I prefer AO3 over AFF for story posting; better UI, I can use style sheets instead of text-formatting-games, better search, and more statistics (Kudos, word counts, etc).  They do more aggressive fund raising, so likely a fully funded coding staff, something AFF lacks.   However, the forums here… AO3 doesn’t have that, which means the staff/member interaction is way better here.  As to procrastination, we still have the chatbox, the successor to the shoutbox.

AO3 is funded by a deep-pockets not-for-profit. They do very aggressive fundraising as well, which allows them to roll out new code as needed. That’s my staff member response.

Now for my personal response as a writer…  AO3 fosters a great deal of confusion when it comes to moderation. The Terms of Service is obscure, and unevenly applied. I ran into an issue there with utterly baffling moderation that favored a cybertroll over the author who was targeted. While it was not aimed at me, it had the effect of thoroughly discouraging the author who was targeted, and I filed a formal protest with AO3’s legal team over the bizarre and inexplicable use of the Terms of Service to victim-shame and gaslight someone who is a singularly talented writer in favor of protecting the delicate sensibilities of a trollish brat who spammed a review over and over, deleting and reposting it to create a near-constant barrage of email notifications. 

Yes, there are some lovely features there, like kudos and word counts. There is also a built-in download feature, which lets anyone download your work, in a variety of formats. Personally, I find that deeply objectionable, but as a “creator” I do not have the option to opt out of allowing my work to be downloaded. Granted, AO3 is not geared for works of original fiction, but I would still like creative control over my fan fiction. That’s a me issue, apparently.

I also hate, with a deep and abiding passion, the free-for-all tagging there. Without some standardization, it’s impossible for tags to have any actual meaning as warnings, and no one enforces the use of trigger tags. I don’t read Minor1 fiction for enjoyment, as an example. I loath being blindsided by that content as a reader. I also don’t believe there is any such thing as dubious consent. It’s yes or it’s non-consensual, otherwise known as rape. I’m too damned old and cranky to play word games about that issue.

That’s my take on AO3, and sorry for the rant!

[Desiderius Price]

3 hours ago, BronxWench said:

That’s my take on AO3, and sorry for the rant!

My take was from my personal experience, haven’t really experienced the real downsides that you’ve mentioned (yet), and cross my fingers, I won’t.  (Got one person who’ll popup with a comment every few months – “write me a game of thrones crossover fanfic?” on my potter story, like my first “NO” didn’t get the point across.)  They did recently institute a 75-tag-per-story limit, so unfortunately I had to pare some of mine down.

3 hours ago, WillowDarkling said:

And also, it’s a bit of a kick in the gut to be using our forum to ask about another story archive. 

In the staff question topic too.  I could see this going into a different topic like the “Great Wall of.”

Now, TBH, the looseness inthe rules is one of the things that drew my potter fanfic to AO3.  It technically crossed a line here, but was alright there without having to “file off the serial numbers”.

[WillowDarkling]

Quote

In the staff question topic too.  I could see this going into a different topic like the “Great Wall of.”

Actually, it was originally posted in Site Announcements which is for the staff to make announcements concerning the forum and the archive. So, I moved it to here, since the first part of it was a forum related question. 

[BronxWench]

27 minutes ago, Desiderius Price said:

Now, TBH, the looseness inthe rules is one of the things that drew my potter fanfic to AO3.  It technically crossed a line here, but was alright there without having to “file off the serial numbers”.

That’s a big part of why I don’t care for AO3 as well. The rules shift depending on whims, or who is doing the moderating that year. They also play fast and loose with the Fair Use portion of copyright law, in my opinion. A lot of what they allow is in clear violation of copyright law, but they do have that deep-pocket not-for-profit and its legal staff to fight those battles for them. They also aren’t age restricted but do allow adult content, which crosses another legal threshold in that they rely on self-policing to protect minors. And we all know how quickly minors will say, “Oh, that’s tagged as adult content! I’ll just go read something more wholesome!” 

[Desiderius Price]

1 hour ago, BronxWench said:

That’s a big part of why I don’t care for AO3 as well. The rules shift depending on whims, or who is doing the moderating that year. They also play fast and loose with the Fair Use portion of copyright law, in my opinion. A lot of what they allow is in clear violation of copyright law, but they do have that deep-pocket not-for-profit and its legal staff to fight those battles for them. They also aren’t age restricted but do allow adult content, which crosses another legal threshold in that they rely on self-policing to protect minors. And we all know how quickly minors will say, “Oh, that’s tagged as adult content! I’ll just go read something more wholesome!” 

That’s the ugly truth of the legal system, rights extend farther when you can afford good lawyers.

And yes, EVERY minor is totally a rules follower and would simply go away … like how sexual urges and fantasies are bequeathed on their 18^th birthday, and every boys school locker room is a point of clean jovial fun, at least according to the various TOS I frequently find at various websites.  (And that’s something I have to be careful on with my writings.)

[Guest strange things]

So I know this is an older thread, but as to AO3’s plagiarism determinations… They “prefer” you copy and paste the stolen text into your report to them. When you do this, they contact the plagiarist and tell them to paraphrase what they stole. A user there stole an entire chapter from Alex Liddell, and when the admins of AO3 were notified, that was their response. Because the report was filed with their preferences, there was no screenshot evidence – which is why they don’t want anyone taking screens over there. They also said in their response: “The amount of text taken from Ms. Liddell’s work versus the whole of her work, and the amount of text that was plagiarised into the posted fanfiction versus the whole of the work – we do not feel that this is sufficient to remove the work for the plagiarism that occurred. And since the alleged plagiarism is no longer there[…]” (Yes, admission that there was plagiarism, then “alleged”. smh.)

When someone later provided screened evidence of massive plagiarism on another account, they couldn’t deny either the fact that it happened or the amount of stolen content versus the whole as the entirety of both the originals and the stolen copies were screened with the relevant portions highlighted. (I’m told that took a good few hours.) They didn’t much care for being called out like that, as I understand it.

Oh, well. (And a good number of those stories were taken from here on AFF. That account also led to the discovery of multiple plagiarists on Literotica.)

They do [AO3], however, have an originals section. And you’ll love the response when a report was sent in regarding a Harry Potter fan fiction being in the Originals section: “We do not require that fan fiction be tagged as fan fiction or placed in a fan fiction archive. Fanfiction works are original works.” Oh, for the want of a law degree and standing in … what state are they in?

As for having control over your work being downloaded or not?

So AO3 just takes out the middleman, as it were.

I do completely agree about the tagging, but I’ve noticed more and more on recent fics here on AFF things that aren’t part of the official tags making it into story warning sections. For example:

Quote

 

Harry Potter and the Secret Spellbook -:- By : Harryandginny -:- Published : December 16, 2020
Updated : July 23, 2021 4:34 pm -:- Rated : Adult + -:- Chapters : 6 -:- Reviews : 5 -:- Dragon prints : 49654
Located : Harry Potter > Het - Male/Female

Harry Potter experiments with spells from an old book that his girlfriend, Ginny Weasley, found deep in the restricted section. Old friends and new spells break boundaries, change friendships and open up new realms for exploration. Each chapter introduces a new spell which will expand the story and lead to new discoveries.

Content Tags : Other TF 3Plus Anal Bi DP Exhib Fingering FD MC Solo Toys WIP Oral Harry Potter Ginny Weasley Hermione Granger Luna Ron Spells Magic Book Wand Wizard Witch Invisibility Tits Boobs Ass Growth Expand Grow Breasts Expansion Lessons Secret Control Threesome

 

This part:

Quote

Harry Potter Ginny Weasley Hermione Granger Luna Ron Spells Magic Book Wand Wizard Witch Invisibility Tits Boobs Ass Growth Expand Grow Breasts Expansion Lessons Secret Control Threesome

those aren’t actual story codes. The list for anyone wanting it:

I assume the generic ones are there in case someone does a search for “wizard” in the Harry Potter archive. No, wouldn’t want to read about wizards when reading Harry Potter fan fiction. Never. I’d understand tagging “Muggles” or “all-human AU”, but the magic components? Really?

And poster got lazy on the character names. Couldn’t remember Lovegood and Weasley (the second time)? (by the way, it should be in Threesomes/Moresomes, shouldn’t it?)

---

But to the OP – I think you’re looking for The Play Pen: https://www2.adult-fanfiction.org/forum/forum/489-the-play-pen/

The games are gone, from what I can tell, but I’m not logged in, so it’s possible they’re only available if you have an account.

Edited September 26, 2022 by WillowDarkling
Removed information regarding how to download stories from our Archive. We prefer our users not do that.

[Desiderius Price]

11 hours ago, Guest strange things said:

They do [AO3], however, have an originals section. And you’ll love the response when a report was sent in regarding a Harry Potter fan fiction being in the Originals section: “We do not require that fan fiction be tagged as fan fiction or placed in a fan fiction archive. Fanfiction works are original works.” Oh, for the want of a law degree and standing in … what state are they in?

Nearly any line is jagged and a wide swath of area if you look at it closely enough.  Now, I’m not a lawyer, but I do watch some on youtube… that makes me qualified, right? 

I’ll ignore the outright plagiarism you’re noting above and assume US copyright law based on what I’ve seen for my youtube law degree.   Fanfiction is part source material and part new material.  Author(s) of the source have copyright interests in their own works *AND* that part of your fanfiction that leverages their material.  However, the fanfic writer does have copyright interest in the material they added in crafting their fanfic.  Fanfic writers usually slap on a disclaimer, disavow profit, seek fair use as grounds for posting, and call it a wrap, easy done, easy go.  BUT unless that fanfic writer has signed it away, they’ve got copyright in what they contributed, and therefore, they can use the DMCA against the offending website.  That’s my $0.02 on how a fanfic writer can deal with a website that pirates their stories.  If they want to go further, if there’s a legal tassle, then I’d seriously recommend consulting a copyright lawyer who can evaluate the situation.

[BronxWench]

Fan fiction works are not original works, even if the original work in question is a title in the public domain, on which copyright has expired. The staff of AO3 either drinks heavily or studied law under a very small rock in the middle of the Utopia Planitia if they truly believe that a work of fan fiction is an original work. I’d suggest trying to get it published (and not self-published) to cure oneself of that particular delusion.

However, IF a fan fiction is properly disclaimed (attributes copyright of fandom to the actual copyright holder, states that no profit is being made), the portions of the fan fiction that were written by the author of the fan fiction may not be reproduced or used without permission, and yes, if your fan fiction has been posted elsewhere without your permission, you can certainly avail yourself of a DMCA takedown request.

If your fan fiction has been posted elsewhere without your permission AND without attribution, under the name of a person who did not in fact write anything at all, that is plagiarism, which is the theft of your intellectual property. That is illegal and has cost people their employment when they’ve been discovered to be a plagiarist.

I will delete a story posted by someone who is not the actual author of the story pursuant to the DMCA without question. I will delete a plagiarized story, along with the account of the plagiarist and all its content, whether stolen or not, and that plagiarist will be banned from the site permanently. Enthusiasm for a story is one thing; theft is entirely another thing.

[Desiderius Price]

45 minutes ago, BronxWench said:

I will delete a story posted by someone who is not the actual author of the story pursuant to the DMCA without question. I will delete a plagiarized story, along with the account of the plagiarist and all its content, whether stolen or not, and that plagiarist will be banned from the site permanently. Enthusiasm for a story is one thing; theft is entirely another thing.

Thank you for your diligence and efforts here.

[Desiderius Price]

1 hour ago, BronxWench said:

Fan fiction works are not original works, even if the original work in question is a title in the public domain, on which copyright has expired. The staff of AO3 either drinks heavily or studied law under a very small rock in the middle of the Utopia Planitia if they truly believe that a work of fan fiction is an original work. I’d suggest trying to get it published (and not self-published) to cure oneself of that particular delusion.

Apologize if you misunderstood. 

There’s a copyright lawyer on youtube, and I do watch a number of his videos on the topic of fair use, so that’s why I see this a bit more fuzzy than most, because there are times when something reads as a derivative work and succeeds at a fair use claim in court.

(Was debating discussing this more or working on the Halloween story research … )

Edited September 26, 2022 by Desiderius Price

[BronxWench]

There’s a vast difference between a derivative work and a transformative work. In the case of this Seuss/Star Trek mash-up, the court held that it was not a parody, but instead did constitute a transformative work. Derivative work requires a license from the original copyright owner because it builds up and expands the original work, whereas a transformative work uses the original work in a new and new and creative manner. It’s rather like Pride and Prejudice and Zombies, or Sense and Sensibility and Sea Monsters in that sense. The original work is transformed, and not merely used as a starting point to boldly go where the original copyright holder never intended to go. In the mash-up referenced in the YouTube video, it was the current copyright holder of the Dr Seuss franchise who sued, and not the Star Trek franchise. Obviously, the Star Trek copyright holders are better versed in copyright law and fair use than the Seuss crowd.

AO3 calls everything on its site transformative, whether it truly is transformative or derivative in nature. However, you can’t merely label something transformative to make it so.

As an example, if someone writes a fan fiction based on the Harry Potter fandom, and creates a new work detailing everything that happened after Book 7, that is derivative. They would be using the canon work to serve as the launching point for their story, as they go on to tell us what happened to Harry and Hermione's children at Hogwarts. If JK Rowling were to object, I rather suspect she would prevail, because this work would, if published, infringe on any future novels JK Rowling might care to write about the next generation of Potters and Weasleys.

If someone wrote a fan fiction based on the Harry Potter fandom, and simply created a parallel adventure, or introduced a new character to interact with canon characters in familiar settings and events, that would be considered transformative, in that the new character might reveal feelings and motivations that would illuminate the author’s impressions of the canonical setting or event. It would not materially affect any earnings by JK Rowling from the canonical works or even future works, but it is still highly unlikely that any publisher would take the chance, without clear licensing, of publishing such a work. Legal defenses eat into the already thin profit margins of a publisher, after all.

And, in both scenarios, there is a limited portion of the work that could be labeled as original writing. That’s why we call it fan fiction, after all.

[Desiderius Price]

8 hours ago, BronxWench said:

There’s a vast difference between a derivative work and a transformative work. (snip)

That was the distinction I was missing.

Fanfic, by its nature, is taking elements of canon and the contributions of the fanfic writer (at least in plot & the actual word arrangements) – I know, that’s being generous for some of the fanfic out there.  An exact determination of derivative vs transformative can require a court case, to determine if fair use would apply (thereby allowing the fanfic writer to ignore a demand of the canon author to not post a fanfic).  However, I’m not willing to spend $100k to defend a fanfic in court, and there’s that ever present chance to LOSE the case making the fanfic situation worse.

Luckily for my Harry Potter fanfic, JK Rowling did famously allow fanfic on a not-for-money basis; thus rendering the debate closer to academic as I doubt I’d ever feel comfortable charging readers for my writings.

(p.s.  why is my auto-correct wanting to change “fanfic” to “fanatic”?)