Introducing characters

[Desiderius Price]

37 minutes ago, SirGeneralSir said:

The story will be mostly set around the MC, its his adventure sort to speak.

That’s how you could introduce Janina, from the MC’s POV (male, right)?  He could remember his *last* time there, an insult that pissed her off, and how he doesn’t want to repeat his mistake again.  In doing so, add in details to her cleavage/clothes every other paragraph or so.

 

[SirGeneralSir]

What I did, though it still needs work, is introduced the MC, tavern owner and girls in the first chapter.

There will eventually be more dedicated chapters for each of the characters giving more details into their personal lives and why ABC XYZ exists for them.

Just have to make it not sound cheesy or anything.

[Desiderius Price]

First word, first sentence, first paragraph, first page, first scene, and first chapter are definitely important and worthy of focus as a writer.  Obviously, there’s some leeway at the start of the story, but I’ve been turned off by walls of info-dumping/text before, so that’s why I try to avoid writing large blobs of them.  So that’s why you’ll typically see my stories starting off with some level of action, be it dialog, a sound, a movement – don’t want it to be a super-involved action scene, but something to get the story moving.

Now, an epigraph might be a consideration.  An epigraph is a short quote/conversation, etc, that’s relevant to the whole story.  In one of mine, I quoted a bit of (fictitious) legal code that applied to the situation.  Other examples are quotes that are from a future historian’s POV (Andromeda, the TV series, did this), or a bit of the adults’ conversation about Ender Wiggum in Ender’s Game.

Another trick is a scene from near the climax, where everything appears to be going horrid/tense, with a “some time earlier….”

 

[SirGeneralSir]

I described the night first and zeroed in on the tavern, something akin to “it was a dark and stormy night” sort to speak.

[BronxWench]

Here’s a thought. Pick a book that you loved to read, something that caught your attention from the first paragraph. Look at how that author opened the story. Was it action, like @Desiderius Price uses? Was it an epigraph? Was it a flashback? These are all ways to catch the reader’s attention, and make them want to keep reading. There’s nothing wrong with the “It was a dark and stormy night” opening. It worked for Snoopy every time. But what, past that sentence, will hook the reader? (Hint: Snoopy would follow up by saying something like, “The Red Baron’s plane roared through the sky.” Action, and where was the Red baron going? Read on, dear reader!)

[InvidiaRed]

2 hours ago, BronxWench said:

Here’s a thought. Pick a book that you loved to read, something that caught your attention from the first paragraph. Look at how that author opened the story. Was it action, like @Desiderius Price uses? Was it an epigraph? Was it a flashback? These are all ways to catch the reader’s attention, and make them want to keep reading. There’s nothing wrong with the “It was a dark and stormy night” opening. It worked for Snoopy every time. But what, past that sentence, will hook the reader? (Hint: Snoopy would follow up by saying something like, “The Red Baron’s plane roared through the sky.” Action, and where was the Red baron going? Read on, dear reader!)

Thats sorta how I started with my story. Just looking at how my favorite authors started. hahah

Weirdly enough I got absurdly stuck because I got almost the whole story done but hadn’t thought of how to begin.  I eventually was like you know what? Gonna start with a prison tale along the lines of one time I was snatched from  bed at an ungodly hour and thrown into jail for no discernible reason.

[BronxWench]

1 minute ago, InvidiaRed said:

Thats sorta how I started with my story. Just looking at how my favorite authors started. hahah

Weirdly enough I got absurdly stuck because I got almost the whole story done but hadn’t thought of how to begin.  I eventually was like you know what? Gonna start with a prison tale along the lines of one time I was snatched from  bed at an ungodly hour and thrown into jail for no discernible reason.

And that’s a great start. Why am I in jail? What the hell just happened here? Why won’t anyone answer my questions? Give the reader a little emotional hook into the character and they’ll want to find out, too.

Most of my favorite authors are voracious readers. You can’t write if you don’t also read, in my ever-so-humble opinion.

[Desiderius Price]

4 hours ago, BronxWench said:

And that’s a great start. Why am I in jail? What the hell just happened here? Why won’t anyone answer my questions? Give the reader a little emotional hook into the character and they’ll want to find out, too.

Most of my favorite authors are voracious readers. You can’t write if you don’t also read, in my ever-so-humble opinion.

It’s bad when you don’t remember why you’re in jail.  Parking violation, perhaps? 

[InvidiaRed]

3 hours ago, Desiderius Price said:

It’s bad when you don’t remember why you’re in jail.  Parking violation, perhaps? 

Oh man I guess its too late to add that but the thought of a horse with a full on boot keep it from moving is just hilarious.

[SirGeneralSir]

my number 1 all time books were either Goosebumps or Battle Tech/Mech Warrior.

perspective wise though, I would say maybe trying to take a Q from LOTR would be a better setting or something.

[Thundercloud]

On 7/7/2021 at 12:24 AM, SirGeneralSir said:

So story wise, the three women will have personal reasons for working at the tavern, mostly along the lines that the owner was good to them and helped them in XYZ situations, same with the MC.

The reason that I do have some of these “men” act that way is because, it happens, its real world ish. (Not that its right mind you)

Janina’s appearance means nothing for her actual skills, she is just a woman with a larger chest, but as the typical perception goes, looks = ……… thing only for it not to be true.

The three girls do and will get some light harassments in terms of comments but none of the “smart” men will ever try to force them because if the girls dont kill them, the tavern owner will because in a way they are almost like his daughters, but they are also big girls that can take care of them selves.

All that is background for the character, but that does not equal a good reason to tell the reader about it. There is not inherently any problem with a character having large tits...but why are we told the boob size of the females but not given a description of the dwarf tavern owner that is bound to be important to the main character? 

If I am blunt...what does these girls actually do in the first chapter? If the focus should be on your main character and him being average you could probably just as well tell the reader there are some babes working at the Inn without any specifics. You could continue with telling the reader about how the babes never looked in the direction of main character and that he feels insignificant and invisible around them.

Some visual descriptions from the viewpoint of the main character as he dreams about them could work. You could also expand more about the main characters personality by him thinking about he never dared to ask them out since he recall how they reacted on customers trying take advantage of them could let you rescue some of details if they are important to you. I could also imagine to saving the visuals for later chapters and using the space in the first chapter to tell reader about the dwarf tavern owner and why the main character works for him instead of talking about the babes.

Quote

The world they are in, I would say is a light demonic/monster post apocalyptical world, the kingdoms still exist and so do the armies but they stay behind the walls, heading out at night is more or less a death sentence and during the day can be just as dangerous too so the guilds have almost no members as many are not even strong enough to fight most monsters.

I think you should devote more focus on showing this to the reader than girls working at the Inn. One option could be to alert the reader about the apocalyptical setting into the descriptions of the first chapter by having the elven sorceress working on the Inn because even with her spells she does not dare to travel alone in the wilderness. Her trying to assemble the coins to secure travel with a caravan for semi safe travel to her destination would frame the readers thoughts about the setting in the right direction.

The important thing IMHO is that you should use the space of the first chapter to develop the main character and the setting. Visuals and details that advance those goals are a good idea, but telling the reader stuff that won’t matter until later chapters is a tricky business.

 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Thundercloud

[WillowDarkling]

On 7/9/2021 at 3:20 AM, InvidiaRed said:

Oh man I guess its too late to add that but the thought of a horse with a full on boot keep it from moving is just hilarious.

Sorry, but I’m definitely stealing that for my storyverse!   that’s just hilarious! 

[SirGeneralSir]

@Thundercloud My thought was that the girls appearances cause people assume that they are A or B type of girl.

I can not count how many times in media I have seen the blond big breast bimbo, This girl/woman is a contradiction to that, they all are supposed to be a contradiction.

Maybe not the dark elf, she is scary assassin type and does end up throwing a few daggers at one guy that tries to force himself on another girl, in short these girls could murder you in any number of ways and it would probably be justified. 

[Desiderius Price]

8 hours ago, SirGeneralSir said:

@Thundercloud My thought was that the girls appearances cause people assume that they are A or B type of girl.

I can not count how many times in media I have seen the blond big breast bimbo, This girl/woman is a contradiction to that, they all are supposed to be a contradiction.

Maybe not the dark elf, she is scary assassin type and does end up throwing a few daggers at one guy that tries to force himself on another girl, in short these girls could murder you in any number of ways and it would probably be justified. 

Breasts so large they’ve crushed fifty men?

[BronxWench]

13 hours ago, SirGeneralSir said:

@Thundercloud My thought was that the girls appearances cause people assume that they are A or B type of girl.

I can not count how many times in media I have seen the blond big breast bimbo, This girl/woman is a contradiction to that, they all are supposed to be a contradiction.

Maybe not the dark elf, she is scary assassin type and does end up throwing a few daggers at one guy that tries to force himself on another girl, in short these girls could murder you in any number of ways and it would probably be justified. 

I think you’re missing the point @Thundercloud is trying to make. You need some more backstory to explain the women—why they’re there and what their purpose is to the story--especially since they’re not the MC. If they’re just there to be eye candy, it makes for an awkward start to a story. You’re not going to hook a broad swath of readers by giving them a porno teaser before cutting to the MC and his story. Even if the women will appear again, and work with the MC, you’ve already set them up as being halfway in the blond, big-breasted bimbo box because all you’re showing of them is how they are taken for that very thing.

Here’s a thought. Take a piece of paper for each character. Write down the name, general description, and list their strong points and weaknesses. THEN explain each strong point and weakness. So, the blond elf has deadly aim. Why? Because she had to hunt for her supper—her family didn’t have a lot, and if they wanted to eat, someone needed to hunt. She has a quick temper. Why? Because she’s sick and tired of stupid human males with a mommy complex lusting after her breasts, and if she had her way, she’d reduce them all to ash and take up sleeping with women. (This is all very simplistic, but I’m trying to give examples.) Once YOU get to know who she is, you can write her properly, and not just make a cardboard character with no real appeal to the reader (other than those overdeveloped mammaries).

Postscript (because my brain is working that way today):

When you’re writing for a fandom, it’s easy. Everyone knows the characters, and the setting. But you are writing an original work here, and we know NOTHING about your characters or setting. You need to clue us in, preferably without a boring infodump, and definitely before we decide the story is just about a bunch of tavern wenches who don’t want to be mistaken for bimbos despite working in the tavern equivalent of a chainmail bikini and having to fend off male customers in droves as a consequence. OH! And here’s the MC, who has nothing to do with anything yet, but will do, once he figures out how to put his pants on and shows up in front of the readers.

Edited July 14, 2021 by BronxWench

[Desiderius Price]

“Hi, I’m Janina,” the busty lady said, “Don’t even think it, because the last man who dared, she’s working in the cellar.  Now, what can I get you?”

[SirGeneralSir]

Oh I am trying to give more details into the girls, I 100% hate the helpless “damsel” in distress or characters that are only some times useful to the main characters.

I WANT, them to more or less be equals just different, but I do have a self imposed restriction of no more than 10-15 pages per chapter, or I could end up with 100 pages in no time X_X 

 

[Desiderius Price]

3 hours ago, SirGeneralSir said:

Oh I am trying to give more details into the girls, I 100% hate the helpless “damsel” in distress or characters that are only some times useful to the main characters.

I WANT, them to more or less be equals just different, but I do have a self imposed restriction of no more than 10-15 pages per chapter, or I could end up with 100 pages in no time X_X

(whistles you away from my potter fanfic...948k and nowhere near done...)

BW is trying to lead you down the path of better character building, less “smut-only” story, which is definitely one I try to pursue myself.  Obviously, the shorter the story, the less of that character buildup will be in the actual prose, however, it’s useful for guiding how the character responds to situations, especially when it’s out-of-ordinary responses (ie, I had a grown man breakdown & cry when he saw my teenage MC naked because it reminded him of discovering his own son dead from carbon monoxide poisoning – same MC who loved oysters but had the allergic effect of giving him a bad case of the runs).

As to introducing those characters, I’ll typically give a distinguishing physical feature or two (ie. hair color) though sometimes it’ll simply be “the waiter” even if I know they’ve got magical birthmarks on their tosh.  Having a warstory or three in their bio-sheet is good too, but don’t forget to actually write the story you intended to write!

[SirGeneralSir]

Ok tell me what you think of this character introduction, its from the MCs perspective/memory  as he was looking at the people in the tavern he works with.

(Janina, a young elf with blond hair that was always tied up into a folded ponytail bun, stood at just over six feet tall and had blue eyes that has a slight glow to them. Her green top gently hugged her athletic body, her fair sized breasts pressing against the fabric were the envy of many women, as were her strong toned legs hidden by a pair of grey pants that held on to her round shapely buttocks.

Only once did anyone ever try to force her to do something she didn't want to. She had the man pinned to the wall with a spell in one hand and a blue fire ball in her other, ready to kill the poor drunk.

After he had pissed his pants, she smiled at him and told him it was time to go home before he gets into any more trouble, to which he quickly paid his tab and ran home. Janina simply returned to work while the entire tavern was dead silent, not one person taking their eyes off her until she asked if anyone needed another drink in one of the sweetest voices that challenged anyone to try something like that again.)

[BronxWench]

[MC] looked around the tavern, assessing his coworkers. They were a diverse bunch, but he had grown fond of them.

Janina, a young elf with blond hair that was always tied up into a folded ponytail bun, stood at just over six feet tall and had blue eyes that has had a slight glow to them. Her green top gently hugged her athletic body, her fair sized breasts pressing against the fabric were the envy of many women, as were her strong toned legs hidden by a pair of grey pants that held on to her round shapely buttocks.

Only once did anyone ever try to force her to do something she didn't want to do. She had the man pinned to the wall with a spell in one hand (What was the spell? You describe the fire ball in her other hand, so is this spell visible? If so, describe it!) and a blue fire ball in her other, ready to kill the poor drunk.

After he had pissed his pants, she smiled at him and told him it was time to go home before he gets got into any more trouble. He quickly paid his tab and ran home. Janina simply returned to work while the entire tavern was dead silent, not one person taking their eyes off her, until she asked if anyone needed another drink in one of the sweetest voices that challenged anyone to try something like that again.

So, to explain my edits…

Give us some context in the form of a sentence that lets us know whose point of view this is.

If this is from MC’s point of view, he doesn’t know what other women envy about Janina, unless they’ve all decided to drop by and tell him. If her legs are hidden by the pants, he can’t tell that they’re strong and toned, unless he makes a habit of peeking when she’s changing. Also, his absorption with the way her clothes fit makes him sound like a pervert, or a fashionista.

You need to watch verb tense. You keep popping off into present tense when the sentence starts out in the past tense. Pick a tense and stick with it, please. The gods of grammar will thank you.

Avoid endlessly complicated sentences. It’s confusing for a reader to keep track of what’s happening when they have to unravel all those clauses. It’s as bad as all those endless (and breathless) sentences that begin with “Then… And then...”

Most of the time, unless it’s in the form of a scroll, you don’t see a spell. You see the effect of the spell. You got it with the blue fire ball, but the other spell? We readers have no clue what it is, or what she’s doing with it. Help out a poor reader and either describe it, or just have her hand around his throat as she pins him to the wall.

[Desiderius Price]

Oh, MC and them are coworkers?  And, he’s ogling them?  That’s a HR nightmare waiting to happen.  So, is this annual-review-time and he needs to write something flattering about his coworkers?  Is he a pervert and makes a habit of gawking at them (& their reactions)?

An idea is to have a customer make that out-of-line remark (see previous posts), and MC remarking how restrained Janina is being this time?

As to verb tense, I recommend past tense.  I’ve tried present tense and it’s… a beast all to itself.

[SirGeneralSir]

@BronxWench You made some very good points, some I never would have noticed.

@Desiderius Price The Mc is kind of the secret hero to the girls, he will take/serve orders from tables that will likely give the girls a hard time, the less they have to deal with the better their lives, even if he has to suffer a bit.

The three girls notice him doing it, not why and become fond of him but he is the polite, respectful boy-scout that doesnt understand women.

[Thundercloud]

1 hour ago, SirGeneralSir said:

@BronxWench You made some very good points, some I never would have noticed.

I am a bit infrequent here for the moment since I have no steady internet in the summer house...but BronxWench gave a very good explanation of what I was trying to say in my previous post.

1 hour ago, SirGeneralSir said:

@Desiderius Price The Mc is kind of the secret hero to the girls, he will take/serve orders from tables that will likely give the girls a hard time, the less they have to deal with the better their lives, even if he has to suffer a bit.

The three girls notice him doing it, not why and become fond of him but he is the polite, respectful boy-scout that doesnt understand women.

If such things happen...why are you not showing such an event for the reader? How does he feel about his work situation? What are his reasons for working at the Inn? I would be much more interested in reading such at the beginning at the story than how Janina has blasted some fellow with her magic.

[SirGeneralSir]

@Thundercloud At the moment I am just trying to work out the introduction of the characters first, make sure that they are presented properly first so that they are NOT seen as the typical “tavern wenches” that will open their legs for some extra gold

and are dumb as nails.

They ARE dangerous if provoked, they are intelligent and crafty, and they have a “father figure” behind the bar that will murder you in front of everyone to protect his “kids” 

[Desiderius Price]

2 hours ago, SirGeneralSir said:

They ARE dangerous if provoked, they are intelligent and crafty, and they have a “father figure” behind the bar that will murder you in front of everyone to protect his “kids” 

This is where we’re suggesting showing, not telling. 

A full barroom brawl might be a tad much for a start, but having an obnoxious customer and watching how Janina handles them could convey much of what you’re simply “info-dumping” with the original material.  

• Janina has big tits?  – Make the obnoxious customer comment about them. 
• Janina can stand her ground?  – Show the customer getting rattled by her, and the MC wondering how big the blood stain in the carpet will be.
• Janina can do magic? – Part of her response, blue fireballs or something.
• MC as a protector?  – Have his hands on a sword, wondering if he needs to get involved.
• Supposed to be laying low? – Have the MC fret if this’ll blow their cover.

Hope you get the idea, put in action, dialogue, showing the points you want to convey.  It’ll be way more engaging, and you can sprinkle in details throughout, like having her rip her green pants.

 

Edited July 17, 2021 by Desiderius Price