A Question of Other Languages In Your Story

[Tcr]

Recently, I had a conversation with a friend regarding the use of other languages within a written work (ostensibly written in English in this case, although it could be expanded to include English in any other language novels).  In this case, I was discussing the entire language created by myself for Blood Prize (Straxian).  The discussion turned to how much of a different language is too much.

I have nigh an English-Straxi Dictionary going on in my files specifically for the use of this.  Not to mention the creation of gender nominative words and sentence structures.  (Does this make me insane?  Probably...)

To me, if the language is used correctly, it can add to a background and cultural aspect of a character and race.  The use of a different language from English (in this case) allows me the immersion into said culture and the novel.  Admittedly, I don’t want sixteen chapters of a language I don’t understand, but the occasional touch or even exchange in (and I’ll just use mine) Straxi is a reminder that this isn’t human and that the other people do have their own history.

But…  How much is too much for you?  How far do you go in order to create a language for your tale?  Have you or would you create one?  I’d like to hear your thoughts.

[CloverReef]

Too me, as a reader, too much of another language can take me right out of a story. I don’t want to have to read dialogue in another language and then have the author translate in narration or have to keep referring to a glossary or authors note to try and decode it myself. It can easily come off as self-indulgent. I’m sure some writers do it well enough that they can get away with being indulgent. I mean, there are whole sects in geek culture who have learned Klingon (You can find courses to learn it!) and elvish. Some people like that kinda thing. Not me. But some people. 

For me, it has to fit organically. And to fit organically, as a writer, I’ve made rules for myself when I include other languages. 

1. If it’s in the perspective of someone who understands the language, then it will be written in English, in italics, with tags clearly stating they’re speaking in this other language. 
2. If the perspective is of someone who doesn’t understand the language, then only bits and pieces they’ll realistically pick up will be written out. 
3. If the speaker is speaking English, but throwing in slang words, such as ‘Ese’, ‘vato’, ‘gringo’, ‘Tabernacle’, etc, then the word is used with italics. And in this case, use them sparingly, unless its one word used frequently so the reader doesn’t constantly have to google or go back in the story to find the meaning. 

To me, full sentences would be a big no-no. I can’t think of a reason in which I can justify them. Much less full conversations. 

[BronxWench]

Let me start by saying I am fairly decent in Elvish, have a working knowledge of draconic and Ilythiiri, and have a few phrases in Klingon under my belt, just to establish my seriously geeky credentials.

I use endearments in other languages. I might throw in a sentence or two, if my character is in a situation where the person with them has no clue what they’re saying. In that case, I want the reader to be as confused as the listener. Currently, I’m abusing Welsh, because I can, but I’ve mangled Irish Gaelic for my own purposes, too. And in fandoms, I do use the conlangs from those fandoms, because I expect my readers to understand the words and phrases, too. 

I guess that puts me on the fence, so to speak. I do use other languages, I don’t always translate or include a glossary, but I don’t do entire paragraphs or even frequent full sentences in those languages.

[CloverReef]

1 hour ago, BronxWench said:

I use endearments in other languages.

Ohhh yes. I love endearments in other languages. Dragon Age Inquisition; what was it Iron Bull calls the MC? Kadan? I love that. If timed right, it can be sooo powerful. If timed wrong, it can be super cheesy lol. 

[Avaloyuru]

Using other languages in a story is a real iffy situation for the most part.  I personally only use it in my Tolkien related fanfiction, even then it’s primarily limited to greetings, acknowledgments, or other short (2-3 word) phrases.  But I do not use another language in any of my original works.

I think a lot of that depends on the ‘audience’ as well, such as with the Star Trek fans, I had a few friends years ago who enjoyed bothering the crap out of everyone around them by talking to each other mostly in Klingon (shaking my head).  Similarly, with Tolkien, there are a lot of people who take the courses to learn it and use it excessively.  Which isn’t a problem as long as it’s not entire sentences or a full conversation.  I have a large Sindarin vocabulary and understand what they are saying, with a few exceptions.

Regardless, it’s a personal choice if the author wants to do that, but it’s something that can be viewed as a huge distraction to some readers.

[Desiderius Price]

I’ll use it on that rare occasion (noting it to be translated by “google/babelfish/etc”), generally if I want to make it clear that a message/conversation isn’t being understood due to language differences, as I prefer to showing over telling.

[CloverReef]

6 hours ago, Desiderius Price said:

I’ll use it on that rare occasion (noting it to be translated by “google/babelfish/etc”), generally if I want to make it clear that a message/conversation isn’t being understood due to language differences, as I prefer to showing over telling.

Absolutely. Showing over telling is my preference with most things too, but I usually write in a character’s perspectives. (Limited 3^rd or even 1^st) so I try to write true to their experiences, if that makes any sense. If you’re sitting there listening to someone speaking a language you don’t understand, it’s unlikely you’ll catch every word they’re saying. It’ll sound like a string of vaguely familiar or completely unfamiliar syllables. It’ll usually get written out in my story, (hopefully) as an active descriptive sentence, rather than dialogue. Unless the perspective character would understand it, in which case, I’ll write it out in English in italics. 

Honestly, I’m not sure what I’d do in omniscient 3^rd. I haven’t written in that POV in like 10 years lol. Rules might be a bit different I imagine. 

[Avaloyuru]

49 minutes ago, CloverReef said:

Absolutely. Showing over telling is my preference with most things too, but I usually write in a character’s perspectives. (Limited 3^rd or even 1^st) so I try to write true to their experiences, if that makes any sense. If you’re sitting there listening to someone speaking a language you don’t understand, it’s unlikely you’ll catch every word they’re saying. It’ll sound like a string of vaguely familiar or completely unfamiliar syllables. It’ll usually get written out in my story, (hopefully) as an active descriptive sentence, rather than dialogue. Unless the perspective character would understand it, in which case, I’ll write it out in English in italics. 

Honestly, I’m not sure what I’d do in omniscient 3^rd. I haven’t written in that POV in like 10 years lol. Rules might be a bit different I imagine. 

I struggle a lot with POV, including my own voice as far as how the story is being told.  I’ve been collecting a lot of articles on Pinterest as well as different things mentioned about POV in various articles in this writers newsletter I recently signed up for.  I’m not new to writing, just new to sharing it with others!

Going back to the topic of this forum, I look into and read the writings of others who have a lot more comments than I do to check out their style.  Maybe see what I’m doing wrong (wrong being used for the lack of a better term at the moment).  I only write in the Tolkien Fandom right now, and I see so many using elvish, so in my mind, I’m thinking it must be what readers want.  But I don’t see myself using another language in my original works.  I totally agree with you on the point about ‘show don’t tell’ in writing.

[CloverReef]

15 minutes ago, Avaloyuru said:

I struggle a lot with POV, including my own voice as far as how the story is being told.  I’ve been collecting a lot of articles on Pinterest as well as different things mentioned about POV in various articles in this writers newsletter I recently signed up for.  I’m not new to writing, just new to sharing it with others!

Going back to the topic of this forum, I look into and read the writings of others who have a lot more comments than I do to check out their style.  Maybe see what I’m doing wrong (wrong being used for the lack of a better term at the moment).  I only write in the Tolkien Fandom right now, and I see so many using elvish, so in my mind, I’m thinking it must be what readers want.  But I don’t see myself using another language in my original works.  I totally agree with you on the point about ‘show don’t tell’ in writing.

I admire that: that you’re putting so much effort into what you feel you need to improve. I could tell a story about how I discovered and grew to love 3^rd limited POV, but I won’t because I don’t wanna annoy the mods. Yes. I have a story. I’m that much of a writing nerd. 

I’m not so sure my personal rules for languages would apply to fandoms like Star Trek or anything Tolkien, just because of what you mentioned. In fandoms where there are complex languages, the fans have already developed their love for something that you’d need to ease them into if it were an original. I don’t read or write high fantasy or deep sci fi, but I’m not sure my rules would apply there either. Obviously, since it worked for Tolkien, some original writers are able to do things other writers would balk at, and do them successfully. Though, in my not-so-humble opinion, plenty do them unsuccessfully too. 

You know your audience, and you should absolutely give them what they love. 

[Anesor]

The trouble with made up languages is that it’s very hard to guess how much your audience will tolerate or enjoy.  I was having fun making up language/culture for my original story, but realized much later that it was going to force readers to keep referring to a glossary or they miss important emotional context of the story.

I hate that myself, and it takes a really special story to make me put up with it for long.

When a published romance opens with a eight page phrase book, I put it down.  Few there avoid pretentious overuse, instead of a spice.

Yeah, there’s some geek subcultures where there is an existing language or two. (I would not like to get caught between some klingons and elves) but I want to remember that I want to appeal to more than the ubergeeks. (so next time I tackle revisions of that novel, I’m going to gut the language)  I use an occasional existing slang or invective from my current fandom, but even now I’m considering using a longer quote because using that other language has an extra emotional weight for the one character that literally cannot be said by that character otherwise. I’ve been testing it in snippets for my own use, and expect to put translations in a chapter afterward… for that chapter.  But how common does a slang, or how clear the context have to be, before I’m a sleemo if I don’t offer a translation?

[Tcr]

1 hour ago, CloverReef said:

I admire that: that you’re putting so much effort into what you feel you need to improve. I could tell a story about how I discovered and grew to love 3^rd limited POV, but I won’t because I don’t wanna annoy the mods. Yes. I have a story. I’m that much of a writing nerd. 

I’m pretty sure everyone who writes has a story like that.  I, personally, love the 3^rd Omniscient as it allows me to explore a wild, wide variety of both the characters and events as they unfold without having the worry about keeping Joe Blow from Idaho in the middle of everything.  I read a book where this author wanted to keep his character involved in every major point in that universe (reference point, Star Wars).  It came off really jumbled and confuzzled (yes, I’m using that word, it’s going to be the next Quiz!); especially when the events were like: He has no reason to be there…  But this kind of got off the rails here…

9 minutes ago, Anesor said:

The trouble with made up languages is that it’s very hard to guess how much your audience will tolerate or enjoy.  I was having fun making up language/culture for my original story, but realized much later that it was going to force readers to keep referring to a glossary or they miss important emotional context of the story.

Yes, the balance of the Non-English to Reader Patience is always a tricky subject.  I do provide a translation in the main text, usually from one of the other characters or just after they say it, in order to not have people running throughout a book trying to find out what it means. (ie.  ”Jin se kahlo.” I love you.)  But I do understand what you’re saying.

Obviously, I’m in the minority here in loving to see alien languages that show a rich culture and not just someone who wants an alien without having to background anything (…  I’m looking at you TOS...)…  In my somewhat outnumbered opinion, the development of a language shows a culture and, especially if the MC is an alien interacting with humans, would not, necessarily, use English (as an example) in every day conversation, either.  Am I just rambling?  I feel like I’m rambling...  I’m probably not making sense either…  Working nights really does a number on brain cells...

[CloverReef]

30 minutes ago, Tcr said:

In my somewhat outnumbered opinion, the development of a language shows a culture and, especially if the MC is an alien interacting with humans, would not, necessarily, use English (as an example) in every day conversation, either. 

Of course, there’s many instances where people would not be using English. But if the perspective character understands the language, there’s no reason the reader shouldn’t be able to read it in English. Personally, I think there are many ways to show a rich history and culture without actually writing out another language. As a reader, having to rely on exposition to understand dialogue is tedious and takes me out of the story. I get more culture out of a well placed insult or endearment than lines of what would be gibberish to me. 

I love other languages. I love when other languages and cultures get represented in fiction. I’d like to enjoy that representation and get absorbed into the story without exposition or confusion kicking me out of it. Doesn’t mean you can’t do it. Doesn’t even mean that I will hate it if you have conversations written out en francais. Just means I probably will hate it lol, but there’s a small chance that a writer could do it so epic and awesome that it sucks me right in. 

Edited May 10, 2018 by CloverReef

[Tcr]

1 minute ago, CloverReef said:

Doesn’t mean you can’t do it. Doesn’t even mean that I will hate it if you have conversations written out en francais. Just means I probably will hate it lol, but there’s a small chance that a writer could do it so epic and awesome that it sucks me right in. 

Se ijin shan Erisiche halshaten?  And what, are you saying I don’t write epic alien languages that leave you breathlessly wanting more language from them?  ;).  But, yes, I do agree that the author probably shouldn’t have an entire chapter between characters speaking different languages without A.) established the language to the point that it is understood (there’s a great scene in STIII that actually illustrates this well, but no one wants to hear that, I’m sure...) or B.) having some way that they can translate without pulling someone out of the story in such a time.  And in highly romantic or emotional scenes, there’s definitely a point where the conversations should be understood, preferably in a language that’s understood…  

[Desiderius Price]

5 hours ago, CloverReef said:

I admire that: that you’re putting so much effort into what you feel you need to improve. I could tell a story about how I discovered and grew to love 3^rd limited POV, but I won’t because I don’t wanna annoy the mods. Yes. I have a story. I’m that much of a writing nerd.

This is AFF, we love stories around here, especially if there’s stripping involved

In the Potter fanfics that I did write, I’d switch a bit too often, IMO, between 1^st and 3^rd.  Since then, I’ve kinda formed my own rules.  I’ll avoid 1^st because there’s a lot of “I’s” not to mention it’s tougher to remember the main character’s name.  When I started SR, I did a utterly detached, third person, no-mind-reading, but I’ve come to let a bit slip in if it saves a lot of awkward exposition/dialogue, or as a hint to the reader (ie, “lied” or “changed subject”) so they know there’s something off.  I think it came down to .. I want the narrator to be truthful, always truthful, but the characters can lie and get it wrong

3 hours ago, Anesor said:

Yeah, there’s some geek subcultures where there is an existing language or two. (I would not like to get caught between some klingons and elves) but I want to remember that I want to appeal to more than the ubergeeks. (so next time I tackle revisions of that novel, I’m going to gut the language)  I use an occasional existing slang or invective from my current fandom, but even now I’m considering using a longer quote because using that other language has an extra emotional weight for the one character that literally cannot be said by that character otherwise. I’ve been testing it in snippets for my own use, and expect to put translations in a chapter afterward… for that chapter.  But how common does a slang, or how clear the context have to be, before I’m a sleemo if I don’t offer a translation?

So, which dialect of Klingon are you’re looking for?     A google search claims there’s at least eighty.

3 hours ago, CloverReef said:

Of course, there’s many instances where people would not be using English. But if the perspective character understands the language, there’s no reason the reader shouldn’t be able to read it in English. Personally, I think there are many ways to show a rich history and culture without actually writing out another language. As a reader, having to rely on exposition to understand dialogue is tedious and takes me out of the story. I get more culture out of a well placed insult or endearment than lines of what would be gibberish to me. 

I love other languages. I love when other languages and cultures get represented in fiction. I’d like to enjoy that representation and get absorbed into the story without exposition or confusion kicking me out of it. Doesn’t mean you can’t do it. Doesn’t even mean that I will hate it if you have conversations written out en francais. Just means I probably will hate it lol, but there’s a small chance that a writer could do it so epic and awesome that it sucks me right in. 

If the author is really wanting to show their bilinguistic skills, there’s no reason they can’t have English subtitles when it’s meant to be understood.

 

[Avaloyuru]

4 hours ago, Anesor said:

The trouble with made up languages is that it’s very hard to guess how much your audience will tolerate or enjoy.  I was having fun making up language/culture for my original story, but realized much later that it was going to force readers to keep referring to a glossary or they miss important emotional context of the story.

I hate that myself, and it takes a really special story to make me put up with it for long.

When a published romance opens with a eight page phrase book, I put it down.  Few there avoid pretentious overuse, instead of a spice.

Yeah, there’s some geek subcultures where there is an existing language or two. (I would not like to get caught between some klingons and elves) but I want to remember that I want to appeal to more than the ubergeeks. (so next time I tackle revisions of that novel, I’m going to gut the language)  I use an occasional existing slang or invective from my current fandom, but even now I’m considering using a longer quote because using that other language has an extra emotional weight for the one character that literally cannot be said by that character otherwise. I’ve been testing it in snippets for my own use, and expect to put translations in a chapter afterward… for that chapter.  But how common does a slang, or how clear the context have to be, before I’m a sleemo if I don’t offer a translation?

Oh my goodness!!  I love it!!  While I personally have difficulty with using a ‘created language’ in my writings, I most definitely and absolutely spend an enormous amount of time researching and developing the various aspects of culture for my original works.  Just like in ‘real life’ there are so many different cultures, I want that same ‘richness’ in my stories, complete with social customs, beliefs, politics, etc.  I think this ‘setting of mixed cultures’ helps to build and expand the possibilities for creating tension, intrigue, and other things that can pull the reader into the story.  It gives them ‘good guys’ and ‘bad guys’ to both love and/or hate as they root for whichever one ‘does it’ for them LOL

I also brought this topic up in a discussion with a few other writer friends of mine and their feelings were pretty similar to mine, as well as something you said about ‘slang’ terms.  I brought up in that discussion one of my favorite authors, Mercedes Lackey and her Heralds of Valdemar Series.  There is a group of people in her story that most definitely have their own entire language, but she didn’t use it a lot in the story, just dropped a word here and there when a character from that particular group of people could not think of how to express something to someone outside of their group.  But she would have that character go right into an explanation of what that word meant in their language.  That worked out really well in my opinion.

[CloverReef]

48 minutes ago, Desiderius Price said:

If the author is really wanting to show their bilinguistic skills, there’s no reason they can’t have English subtitles when it’s meant to be understood.

Definitely! If the author wants to show off, or wants to indulge in a fantasy language they created, or they’re just obsessed with languages and enjoy playing with them, all the more power to them. I respect that kinda passion and creativity. I probably won’t enjoy that part of their stories, but I grudgingly accept that not everyone and everything needs to cater to me. 

[Anesor]

2 hours ago, Desiderius Price said:

This is AFF, we love stories around here, especially if there’s stripping involved

In the Potter fanfics that I did write, I’d switch a bit too often, IMO, between 1^st and 3^rd.  Since then, I’ve kinda formed my own rules.  I’ll avoid 1^st because there’s a lot of “I’s” not to mention it’s tougher to remember the main character’s name.  When I started SR, I did a utterly detached, third person, no-mind-reading, but I’ve come to let a bit slip in if it saves a lot of awkward exposition/dialogue, or as a hint to the reader (ie, “lied” or “changed subject”) so they know there’s something off.  I think it came down to .. I want the narrator to be truthful, always truthful, but the characters can lie and get it wrong

So, which dialect of Klingon are you’re looking for?     A google search claims there’s at least eighty.

If the author is really wanting to show their bilinguistic skills, there’s no reason they can’t have English subtitles when it’s meant to be understood.

 

(I usually write a rotating first person POV, I still have to work much harder for 3^rd person)

Nope, I’m caught between Mandolorean and Huttese these days. Tho Mando has some lyricisn to it, especially for military&marriage oaths.

I guess the trick is to show subtitles without slowing those who don’t need them.  Maybe I’ll use subscript for less common fandom languages.  That seems to be a decent platform independent way to make  a translation close to the source but less obtrusive...

[Sinfulwolf]

A question that offers a slight variation of the topic. What of different language in chapter titles? 

While I personally try to stay with English in the actual content of the story, I’ve been using Latin in the chapter titles of my latest tale. Mostly because I think it fits the Hellish themes somewhat. But I’m curious to think what folks might think of that.

[BronxWench]

11 minutes ago, Sinfulwolf said:

A question that offers a slight variation of the topic. What of different language in chapter titles? 

While I personally try to stay with English in the actual content of the story, I’ve been using Latin in the chapter titles of my latest tale. Mostly because I think it fits the Hellish themes somewhat. But I’m curious to think what folks might think of that.

I have no problem with titles in Latin, actually. I sort of like it, to be honest, and might have to brush up on my Latin.

[Desiderius Price]

4 hours ago, Sinfulwolf said:

A question that offers a slight variation of the topic. What of different language in chapter titles? 

While I personally try to stay with English in the actual content of the story, I’ve been using Latin in the chapter titles of my latest tale. Mostly because I think it fits the Hellish themes somewhat. But I’m curious to think what folks might think of that.

I might suggest an (*) somewhere and state what the English equivalent is, or “Latin (English)”, especially where it’s not guessable.

[Sinfulwolf]

5 hours ago, BronxWench said:

I have no problem with titles in Latin, actually. I sort of like it, to be honest, and might have to brush up on my Latin.

I’m glad the idea isn’t entirely out to lunch then.

1 hour ago, Desiderius Price said:

I might suggest an (*) somewhere and state what the English equivalent is, or “Latin (English)”, especially where it’s not guessable.

I’ve pondered that before, but it’s a good suggestion. I suppose I just need to think of how exactly I want to present it so it looks good.

[JayDee]

11 hours ago, Sinfulwolf said:

I’ve been using Latin in the chapter titles of my latest tale. Mostly because I think it fits the Hellish themes somewhat.

Can confirm. My latin lessons at school were hellish.

[BronxWench]

10 hours ago, Desiderius Price said:

I might suggest an (*) somewhere and state what the English equivalent is, or “Latin (English)”, especially where it’s not guessable.

As a proponent of a well-rounded classical education, I say make ‘em work for it! I mean, Google Translame, folks!

[CloverReef]

As long as it's clear the story is in English, so readers don't get scared off, I think chapter titles are the one place you can go absolutely crazy without detracting from the story. Esperanto, klingon, complete gibberish. Might make the writer pause and wtf about it but it won't rip them out of scenes or mess with the pacing. Might even pique curiosity and make some party more attention for hidden meanings. 

[Anesor]

2 hours ago, BronxWench said:

I mean, Google Translame, folks!

Are you slamming AI linguistics?