A Question of Consent

[Mal]

So ever since my post in the “On tags I’ve used by A Writer” section, I’ve been contemplating the idea of consent. Now, I stand by what I said in the thread, that consent, in so far as a character/person either wants the sex and consents to it, or its rape. But it got me thinking on the specific circumstances in my story Billion Dollar Harem, and how they relate to consent. In BDH, the main character, Alex, builds an expansive, luxury “bomb shelter,” under a mansion he constructed deep in the Yukon Mountains. As its being built, he recruits a cadre of African mercenaries. After his complex is complete, he uses these men, his expansive wealth, and subtle influence to kidnap five different celebrities on the same night. He then imprisons these women in the underground shelter and once there, he begins their sexual training.

Now, I’m not debating that basically all the initial sexual encounters would and should be categorized as rape. Clearly, these celebs are there against their will and whether its through force, coercion, or self-preservation any sex he gives them is rape. What I’m curious to hear from you guys about, and I guess the question I’m asking is: As time goes by, the celebs slowly begin to succumb to Stockholm Syndrome. But more than that, they learn about Alex, and many of them find themselves sympathizing, not so much with his actions or his methods, but in a more general sense his motivation, however misguided, for bringing them there. Not to mention, these same celebs find him attractive and capable of sensitivity, even caring, and there’s the added benefit that he’s an extremely skilled lover. As time goes on they begin to give themselves to him willingly, many even initiating sexual encounters on their own. Now, my question is: should these encounters be considered rape? 

On the one hand, the celebs are still being held in Alex’s sex dungeon. They are expected to participate in the harem and its sexual activities or face punishment. Which means in many ways the original circumstances are still in place, they are just more accepting of it and acclimated to it. On the other, more than a few of the celebs have reached a point, where they wouldn’t want to leave Alex, even if given ample opportunity. So, it maybe have been abduction, rape and Stockholm Syndrome which got them to the state of mind they are currently in, but they have still made a conscious choice to belong. Now, I have not been taging scenes in which these celebs “willingly” give themselves to Alex as rape, (mostly because they ARE  consenting), but it still makes me wonder that in this supremely messed up situation, are these women even capable of giving consent? Their feelings toward him are a byproduct of the extremely fucked up situation which landed them there, but they (at least now) want to belong….

Its a complicated situation. As to tagging, I don’t think I’ll change my policy that when they consent, or offer themselves to Alex that I won’t use a rape tag. But I am curious what you guys think on a philosophical level. Is it still rape when he has sex with them, even if they are willing, just because of the fact that he is still technically keeping them as prisoners in a sex dungeon? I’m very curious to hear what you guys think!

Looking forward to hearing from you guys,

-Mal

[KassX]

Oh yay, my favorite: a giant, gray, muddy morality swamp!  Let’s go swimming! 

Mal, you and I are writing similar stories in different genres. I would say, from what you’ve told us, that OVERALL what’s happening is rape. If the characters are in a situation where they can’t leave or can’t stop what’s happening to them should they change their mind, then their consent is merely a happy coincidence, especially since it’s a result of psychological torture/brainwashing/Stockholm Syndrome. Now, the actual, individual scenes where they consent, taken individually from the story, I wouldn’t call rape. But in the context of the whole fic, I guess you could call it part of the pattern of sexual abuse. 

This is a pretty tricky one though. I almost feel like, depending on the actual mental state of the celebs, that consent can’t be given.

[Mal]

I mean, it is pretty interesting. Alex has tolerated refusals for sex over short periods from a couple of the celebs. He is sensitive to what they’re going through emotionally. But on the other hand, blatant refusals over time are met with harsh punishment. So the celebs do have some degree of choice, but ultimately they submit, or they’re punished… so I can still kind of see both sides of what you’re saying, KassX.

[JayDee]

I’ve written similar themes funnily enough. The thing about consent is that it has to be informed uncoerced consent or it’s not consent. In this situation the celebs are not in a position to give informed uncoerced consent because ultimately if they refuse they’re punished for their refusal. The stockholm syndrome/brainwashing/whathaveyou seems to me to be a comparable altered mental state to someone who is given/takes intoxicants and so might say “Yeah, I’ll fuck!” but is actually too drunk or stoned to make the informed decision. In both situations if advantage is taken by a non-drunk/stoned/brainwashed party and it’s not real consent although frat boy lawyers like to try and argue different. With the story as described I’d be tagging it all rape.

[KassX]

2 hours ago, JayDee said:

With the story as described I’d be tagging it all rape.

I have a followup question: hypothetically, if he freed them at some point and they came back of their own accord to have liaisons with him, would you still consider that rape? I guess what I’m asking is, are ALL their future interactions tainted now no matter what Alex does?

[JayDee]

If it was established that there was no remaining coercion or influence or fear of punishment if they didn’t come back and fuck or whatever then there;s an argument they can give informed consent to say yes and it wouldn’t be rape. Otherwise I’d say it still applies. Of course, I always tag on the side of caution with rape content perhaps other folks’d say different.

[BronxWench]

41 minutes ago, JayDee said:

If it was established that there was no remaining coercion or influence or fear of punishment if they didn’t come back and fuck or whatever then there;s an argument they can give informed consent to say yes and it wouldn’t be rape. Otherwise I’d say it still applies. Of course, I always tag on the side of caution with rape content perhaps other folks’d say different.

It will probably come as no surprise that I’m with JD on this. I’ve written some stuff that’s coerced sex, and I tag it as rape, because there really isn’t informed consent. Whether or not the character arrives at a state where they go along with what’s being done really doesn’t remove the onus of coercion in my opinion. If the character can’t walk away, and can’t refuse without fear of reprisal, it’s rape.

I tend to be very conservative in tagging content as rape, because I’m never sure what will act as a trigger for a reader. I know rape survivors in real life, and I’m well aware that even the most minor thing, something those of us who haven’t been raped might not even register, can prove to be a painful reminder. I don’t ever want someone to come back to me, and tell me I caused them pain and anguish because I didn’t tag content which might be triggering. I will tag non-graphic, offstage mentions of rape with the rape tag, simply as a precaution. 

It’s a good discussion to have, really. Rape is one of those things which brings out strong feelings on both sides, and I’ll be the first to admit my views are very strongly influenced by being female, although men are victims of rape as well. But it’s something I think we can find common ground with, despite our gender.

[Desiderius Price]

2 hours ago, BronxWench said:

I tend to be very conservative in tagging content as rape, because I’m never sure what will act as a trigger for a reader. I know rape survivors in real life, and I’m well aware that even the most minor thing, something those of us who haven’t been raped might not even register, can prove to be a painful reminder. I don’t ever want someone to come back to me, and tell me I caused them pain and anguish because I didn’t tag content which might be triggering. I will tag non-graphic, offstage mentions of rape with the rape tag, simply as a precaution.

As a whole, I’m pretty conservative on tagging too, so much so that I started to really worry at one point that I was scaring away an awful lot of readers over a “maybe”.  So I divide the tags into two groups 1) strong/significant, and 2) weak/maybes/infrequent.  First group goes into the summary; and both go into the top of the story where I can qualify the tag, as necessary.   For instance, if it’s just a conversation about rape, it’d be like “rape (discussion)”.

 

[Desiderius Price]

15 hours ago, KassX said:

Oh yay, my favorite: a giant, gray, muddy morality swamp!  Let’s go swimming! 

Especially when you consider history and the rights of women.  What’s considered rape today (informed consent) is a stricter definition of rape than was common in earlier eras.  (ie, presumed consent in a marriage.)

[BronxWench]

1 hour ago, Desiderius Price said:

Especially when you consider history and the rights of women.  What’s considered rape today (informed consent) is a stricter definition of rape than was common in earlier eras.  (ie, presumed consent in a marriage.)

Trust me, in many cultures today, presumed consent via marriage is a given.

[KassX]

1 hour ago, BronxWench said:

Trust me, in many cultures today, presumed consent via marriage is a given.

A THOUSAND TIMES YES. 

[Anesor]

I think there’d have to be a massive change of circumstance for it to move outside Stockholm syndrome, rape and abuse patterns.  Free will, free movement, and the right to say no without penalty is only the beginning.  How would you separate someone saying yes because of a habit/pattern of abuse/fear even if the threat appears to to be gone? Learned patterns, even psycho ones, for survival would persist.  How long does it take for prisoners and rape victims to recover to even react to sex, trust and intimacy in a more healthy way. Most accounts I’ve seen is a long time if ever.  And I honestly don’t think the abuser has much more than a snowball’s chance in.. after removing personhood and agency over an extended period.

I had a rape survivor in an early story, and they had several screws loose back at home during recovery when it wasn’t an abuser who was nice sometimes.  In retrospect, I think I probably had her recover too fast, but I had little comments on that part of the story. If I wanted to somehow shift a rape/harem into a romance somehow, I would think there would need to be a more compelling reason why the wannbe sheik thought any of this might be okay, like raised in an isolated cult. In another galaxy.  If they/she visited him in prison and they got together when he got out in twenty years everyone would have agency and maybe there might be love.  But I have to think about the women wanting Charles Manson free for their HEA makes me sad.

[KassX]

21 minutes ago, Anesor said:

I would think there would need to be a more compelling reason why the wannbe sheik thought any of this might be okay, like raised in an isolated cult. In another galaxy.  If they/she visited him in prison and they got together when he got out in twenty years everyone would have agency and maybe there might be love. 

I think Mal mentioned that Alex has errr… Reasons, lol. I’d be interested to know what those are. 

My guy’s reasons were that he was under duress as well, and if he refused, he’d simply be made part of the harem and they’d get a newer, probably worse master (better the devil you know, eh?) so he was trying to keep everyone alive up until they had an opportunity to escape. I did intend to transition him to more of a romantic role; ie, he marries one of his old victims and stays friends with the rest, who understand why he did it. I am realizing that might be too idealistic now… I dunno if that reason’s good enough but that’s the one I got lol.

[InvidiaRed]

On 3/26/2018 at 1:17 PM, Desiderius Price said:

As a whole, I’m pretty conservative on tagging too, so much so that I started to really worry at one point that I was scaring away an awful lot of readers over a “maybe”.  So I divide the tags into two groups 1) strong/significant, and 2) weak/maybes/infrequent.  First group goes into the summary; and both go into the top of the story where I can qualify the tag, as necessary.   For instance, if it’s just a conversation about rape, it’d be like “rape (discussion)”.

 

Its defintely better to err on the side of caution. Its a heavy topic.

[InvidiaRed]

On 3/26/2018 at 9:46 PM, KassX said:

I think Mal mentioned that Alex has errr… Reasons, lol. I’d be interested to know what those are. 

My guy’s reasons were that he was under duress as well, and if he refused, he’d simply be made part of the harem and they’d get a newer, probably worse master (better the devil you know, eh?) so he was trying to keep everyone alive up until they had an opportunity to escape. I did intend to transition him to more of a romantic role; ie, he marries one of his old victims and stays friends with the rest, who understand why he did it. I am realizing that might be too idealistic now… I dunno if that reason’s good enough but that’s the one I got lol.

There’s nothing wrong with being optimistic. Stranger shit has happened in reality. And pessimism isn’t all that its cracked up to be.Even in darker settings.

[InvidiaRed]

On 3/25/2018 at 10:13 PM, KassX said:

Oh yay, my favorite: a giant, gray, muddy morality swamp!  Let’s go swimming! 

Mal, you and I are writing similar stories in different genres. I would say, from what you’ve told us, that OVERALL what’s happening is rape. If the characters are in a situation where they can’t leave or can’t stop what’s happening to them should they change their mind, then their consent is merely a happy coincidence, especially since it’s a result of psychological torture/brainwashing/Stockholm Syndrome. Now, the actual, individual scenes where they consent, taken individually from the story, I wouldn’t call rape. But in the context of the whole fic, I guess you could call it part of the pattern of sexual abuse. 

This is a pretty tricky one though. I almost feel like, depending on the actual mental state of the celebs, that consent can’t be given.

Dont forget Lima Syndrome. Where the captor falls for their captive. Or dependency or other sycophantic behavior. Which further muddies the swamp water.

Edited March 28, 2018 by InvidiaRed
Clarification

[Mal]

On 3/26/2018 at 11:46 PM, KassX said:

I think Mal mentioned that Alex has errr… Reasons, lol. I’d be interested to know what those are. 

So, KassX, Alex’s reason for building the harem I don’t think are so different than anyone who reads celebrity fiction. He idolized and fantasized about these celebrities and realized that even with his power and influence he might not ever be able to be with any of them and certainly not all of them. The main difference between him and people who read celeb fiction are that A) he is like Bruce Wayne rich, and B) he has sociopathic and psychotic tendencies. The building of the harem for him started out more as a way for Alex to get what he wanted. He didn’t care so much for the feelings of the women he was taking. But as I said, the story has also kind of evolved into a psychosexual romance. Many of Alex’s captives have fallen for him, having been changed by their interactions with him and his very strong alpha type personality. But, and this goes back to InvidiaRed’s point: 

8 hours ago, InvidiaRed said:

Dont forget Lima Syndrome. Where the captor falls for their captive. Or dependency or other sycophantic behavior. Which further muddies the swamp water.

Alex has also fallen for and been changed by his interactions with the women he’s imprisoned. It is interesting, because he now feels bad for some of the celebs in his harem that they’re going to be forced to stay there forever. But he also recognizes that he can’t let them go because it would take them away from him, and it would obviously have dire legal ramifications for him.

Alex is a very interesting character. One of my favorite scenes with him is  when he is preparing to go back out into the world in order to bring more celebrities back into his harem. He tells one of the celebs, the one who is put in charge of keeping the peace (at least without the intervention of the guard leaves behind). This celeb is the one he trusts the most, she has pretty much fallen desperately in love with him, but on the other hand doesn’t understand why Alex needs to imprison and brutalize more women, both emotionally and physically and doesn’t want to see other women suffer the same fate as she and the others. She pleads with him not to leave, that she and the others (the original group) are more than enough for him. It is an interesting moment because Alex is torn between his feelings for her and his knowledge that what he is doing is wrong and his desire to go through with his plans. Society may have taught him that his actions are wrong, but the only reason he feels any moral pull not to go through with his plans is because of his interactions with his captives. 

What’s so interesting about this moment is that old Alex. That is to say the Alex from the first 6-8 chapters wouldn’t have given a moment of hesitation about doing what he wanted, bringing more women to live in his dungeon. He may have irrevocably changed the women he has imprisoned, but they have changed him too. Even more so as the story goes along, because ultimately, Alex went through with his plans and at least temporarily broke the celeb who pleaded with him’s heart.

I under stand, and I agree with BronxWench when she said:

On 3/26/2018 at 12:51 PM, BronxWench said:

It will probably come as no surprise that I’m with JD on this. I’ve written some stuff that’s coerced sex, and I tag it as rape, because there really isn’t informed consent. Whether or not the character arrives at a state where they go along with what’s being done really doesn’t remove the onus of coercion in my opinion. If the character can’t walk away, and can’t refuse without fear of reprisal, it’s rape.

I tend to be very conservative in tagging content as rape, because I’m never sure what will act as a trigger for a reader. I know rape survivors in real life, and I’m well aware that even the most minor thing, something those of us who haven’t been raped might not even register, can prove to be a painful reminder. I don’t ever want someone to come back to me, and tell me I caused them pain and anguish because I didn’t tag content which might be triggering. I will tag non-graphic, offstage mentions of rape with the rape tag, simply as a precaution. 

It’s a good discussion to have, really. Rape is one of those things which brings out strong feelings on both sides, and I’ll be the first to admit my views are very strongly influenced by being female, although men are victims of rape as well. But it’s something I think we can find common ground with, despite our gender.

What is going on in Billion Dollar Harem, even when “consent” is given is rape. The celebs have no power to refuse, at least long term, without ramifications. They can’t leave and while they might have “fallen” in love, that love isn’t real, it is essentially a mechanism for dealing with the trauma of their situation. As to the tagging question. I think I will continue tagging chapters where “consent” is given without using a rape tag. Mostly because the story as a whole has the rape tag so anyone clicking on it for the first time has been warned and I can thereby differentiate with my readers which chapters have sexual content of a more forceful and brutal nature and which do not.

I would also like to add I’m happy there was such a response to this question. I must admit when I asked it, I had more or less come to the conclusion that everything going on in Alex’s dungeon was rape, but I was really curious to see if anyone thought that it could EVER become anything other than that. I guess the answer to that question is no, unless Alex were to release them and give them ample time to recover and readjust to normal life. If then, they returned to him to form a relationship, that interaction could have the potential of becoming something more…

The whole thing is very interesting, even though I know and as you guys have said, it is rape… Its still interesting to see how these relationships develop and how they change both parties. I guess it is weird to think in terms that without drastically altering the parameters of their relationships it could never be anything else I still think it is very interesting to explore how they change and effect one another…

Thanks again for taking the time to consider my question,

-Mal

[KassX]

13 hours ago, InvidiaRed said:

Dont forget Lima Syndrome. Where the captor falls for their captive. Or dependency or other sycophantic behavior. Which further muddies the swamp water.

Ooh I learned something new today! I agree on pessimism; I’ve written pretty dark circumstances, but hope and humor have always been central themes in my writing. 

@Mal That’s actually a really compelling setup so good on you! I would posit something maybe controversial: if she and Alex are happy together in the end, maybeeee… It doesn’t matter what everyone else thinks? Maybe in the story, that’s just between them and they don’t need outsiders passing judgement on what transpired.

Obviously, the relationship can never be completely morally clean and conscionable and I’m pretty sure Alex would burst into flames if he walked into a church, BUT I don't think anyone would complain if you went the romance route. I mean, I haven't even read your story and I'm kind of shipping Alex and the crazy chick   I’ll have people on my own (very rapey) fic commenting on the two lines of snuggling I wrote after an entire chapter of rape and wondering which of his victims the MC is going to hook up with in the end and I’m just here like, wow, that wouldn’t be healthy at all. But we’re writing dark fantasies which are completely fictitious anyway; so that’s just part of the territory. And I’m sure you’ve already tagged out the wazoo so it is what it is, eh? 

[Desiderius Price]

Some tags, like [rape], drastically cut down on readership, so that's one reason (of many) that someone mightbe reluctant to list it.

[BronxWench]

10 hours ago, Desiderius Price said:

Some tags, like [rape], drastically cut down on readership, so that's one reason (of many) that someone mightbe reluctant to list it.

If the content calls for the tag and it’s not there, we hide the story which drastically cuts down on readership anyway.

[Mal]

I just wanted to say, my story has the rape tag… I didn’t start this thread to find some loophole to try and get out of including the tag. It was more of a philosophical question I was raising. As well as the question of whether or not each individual chapter, which I tag at the top before the story begins, should include the tag. There is no doubt in my mind that my story as a whole is in need of the tag, and, should properly warn people before they click on it, of the content contained within.

Thanks again for all the responses!

-Mal

Edited April 5, 2018 by Mal

[BronxWench]

@Mal Your story’s fine, absolutely!  And this was a good thread, with some really in-depth discussion. I enjoyed it!

I’m just pointing out in response to @Desiderius Price that leaving off the tag so as not to scare off readers is going to backfire if we decide it’s required, because we hide stories with missing trigger tags like that. And, to be really honest, if the author doesn’t add that tag, it’s likely the story will be deleted after the 30-day period we allow for the correction to be made.

[Desiderius Price]

 

@BronxWench I tend to overtag my stories, just to be cautious and to avoid the hassle.   My comment earlier was speculation as to one reason, another being a thought of “I’ll never write X” as a self-imposed restraint for whatever reason, and they start to stray to cross line of tag-or-not.

@Mal This wouldn’t be AFF if we didn’t have the knack for going off topic.

 

[BronxWench]

@Desiderius Price I know you tag as conservatively as I do. I figured it never hurts to point out the logical fallacy in the “But I’ll scare off readers!” argument for not using the Rape tag.

[Desiderius Price]

10 hours ago, BronxWench said:

@Desiderius Price I know you tag as conservatively as I do. I figured it never hurts to point out the logical fallacy in the “But I’ll scare off readers!” argument for not using the Rape tag.

Rape is a bit more black/white on usage, other tags can have a slippery slope.  Even rape, though, if you’re talking sexual assault rather than sex, I could somebody thinking the rape doesn’t apply, especially if they think it’d scare readers unnecessarily (ie, for blood play, they’ve got blood, they’ve got sex, but the blood’s incidental, not really part of the sexual acts)..    As to my method, if I’m unsure or the tag is background noise, I’ll list it along with a short annotation why it may apply (ie, Minor1 because kids are running around naked, but there’s no sex) – guess that means I’m tagging the tags?