No, seriously, WHAT is good writing?

[Cuzosu]

Nope. But even the best writer in the world needs someone objective to pick up the things they miss. As an author, I know what I want to happen. I know what's going on in the heads of all my characters. But am I slipping something in that throws off the story's chronology? Did I have a dread point of view wobble, and let the reader look into the wrong head for a moment?

The very hardest part for me was POV wobbles. To my dismay, if I'm writing from A's point of view, I can't refer to A as the blond. Why? Because it's A's point of view and he's not seeing himself. He doesn't think of himself as the blond. He doesn't notice his own eye color, or build, or height. So if I want to describe A, I need to wait to do it through someone else's point of view, which means a break. And you can't change point of view every two paragraphs, because you make the reader carsick that way. You yank them out of the world you're trying to build for them.

It's not easy to see this in your own writing at all, and now I find I'm actually looking for it. And that will make me a better writer in the long run, because my goal is to make my editor work hard to find my mistakes. (Hint: adverbs. I still like them too much.)

I prefer to stick to third person POV, usually a narrative perspective, though from time to time I'll narrow it down to only one character as a focus.

On occasion, I do forget about one or two characters who only play a minor part in one scene as I transition into the next. Thankfully, I have pre-readers and betas who are willing to say, "Hey, what happened to So-and-so? They were here a minute ago...." It may be embarrassing, but it's less embarrassing than posting a chapter and having all the readers asking the same thing. (With, of course, the notable exception, who says something like, "LOL! I forgot about them, too!" and so makes me feel both better and worse at the same time, however unintentionally. Oops.)

Also, I've noticed as I read around that writers who are strong in voice tend to write mostly voice, while those who are strong in description write mostly description. This, of course, is a general rule and doesn't apply to everybody, but I know that, especially when I first started out, it applied to me, too. I have always been good at voice because I pay close attention to words and phrasing, what is said and what is not. Someone kindly pointed out this tendency to me, and so I have spent some years working on adding more description to my stories...to the extent that sometimes I find myself completely reversing this tendency toward the descriptive side and usually end up scrapping the entire lot that's been written, or at least most of it. Lost five pages of effort in one go, once, but I needed to just start over with a clear mind.

[Cuzosu]

I am loving all this advice but the concept of 'trying to please someone' as though I am out for my Pulitzer, can we please shelve that? Trying to convince me to be happy with my own work just because that is what I should be doing is not answering my question.

The goal of a writer is to write the best they can. To take the shapeless form ideas that are nothing more than a rush of emotion and the flash of an image and use words like a crystal to bounce ideas out of one mind and into another has a definitive set of rules.

Underneath the shape of every ballgown is the stitches that hold it together and the weave of every fibre. The painstaking effort to take a wad of fibres with no form and turn it in to an Armani is not about a little seamstress sitting in her rocking chair with her knitting needles only to discover "Well fuck me, a ball gown!". It is masterful skill and driven intent. No one who ever truly succeeded has said 'Oh, well, you know, I just fuck around and stuff happens and now I'm a published author because I just loved sitting on my ass for hours on end making shit up with no real intention of selling it because lets face it, we're all just running out the clock til the cancer gets us.'

What I am desperately trying to uncover isn't the wish upon a star, nor is it the power within, and it sure as hell isn't the giddy joy of accidental creation like an unplanned pregnancy. I am not trying to unlock the door to the Halls of Gratuitous Praise I am trying to solve the mystery behind the impulse of the faceless countless many who open their wallets and dump actual money on an actual counter for the opportunity to gaze into a mass-produced crystal - from the absolute crap that was the abomination known as 50 shades right up to the answers to the universe like... I can't think of the name of that terrible Tom Hanks movie and but I'm sure you know the one, the one knocking the chuch or the Bible or some nonsense.

No one is reading them into saying things like "My god, such skill such technique it must have been so much fun to write this book! Forget Disneyland! Take me on this cruise, I must feel this rush for myself!"

So what is that elusive pull that draws in so many - lets take a realistic look at the goals of a writer and be honest, how many are paying their bills with praise? - and makes them buy into the journey of 1000 pages? How can I use the map the project my imagery into other brains in the same fashion? All the joy and passion in the world, all correct grammar, all the neatly placed commas are just a big pile and useless fibre without a pattern. There are millions of patterns I am sure but let's face it, unless we are Lady Gaga there is a sameness to all of our tastes!

I don't know that there is any one thing that pulls readers in. As someone who reads a number of different genres, the only thing I can think of that all the books I've really gotten into had in common were, as I mentioned before, realistic emotions and at least one good bout of action. This is perhaps because I'm insatiable as a reader and absolutely adore finding that one more book or author I have to add to my favorites, as if I didn't have enough already.

If you have any specific questions on how to write, it might help to narrow it down to a genre or two, first, before asking for advice. That way you'll get specific tips, instead of generalized how-to help. Also, one of us others here might be able to point you to an author or two in the genre you're trying to write, so that you can read and pick up pointers from your own impressions of someone else's work. Sometimes we find our best style by adapting something someone else is already using. Myself, I appear to have picked up a disturbing mix of Terry Pratchett, Simon R. Green, and Martha Wells. If you've read all three, you'll understand that in some ways, their writing styles were never meant to mix. (When I say Martha Wells, I'm thinking mostly of her Ile-Rien books. Coupled with yet more action/adventure and then parody/satire on top of that? Uh-oh.)

[Slayitalldown]

I've told I write like Stephen King which does nothing to comfort me - I was imprinted very early on with the terror in which his books are supposed to be regarded!

[DemonGoddess]

So what is that elusive pull that draws in so many - lets take a realistic look at the goals of a writer and be honest, how many are paying their bills with praise? - and makes them buy into the journey of 1000 pages? How can I use the map the project my imagery into other brains in the same fashion? All the joy and passion in the world, all correct grammar, all the neatly placed commas are just a big pile and useless fibre without a pattern. There are millions of patterns I am sure but let's face it, unless we are Lady Gaga there is a sameness to all of our tastes!

To make me spend money on a book, whether it's a fresh purchase, or replacing an old copy, the stories have to grab me. The author has to be a good story teller. There are some things I read as a child, that I'll reread still, simply because it's a good story. Andre Norton, Walter Farley, and Marguerite Henry were my favorite authors when I was very young, as an example. Would I read those stories again? You bet I would.

When I started broadening my reading horizons, thanks to my mother's sci-fi mag subscriptions, what engaged me was something which made me think. Made me look at it, and think that yes, this is possible, and how cool would it be if it actually happened? It just so happens that being a Trekkie (Mr. Roddenberry coined the term, by the way, and not in the way that many take it today), that in TOS, the screenplays were often written by science fiction, speculative fiction, and in some cases horror authors, most of whom I like to read. Robert Bloch wrote a screenplay for the series which he expanded further for inclusion in one of the Dangerous Visions anthologies, just as an example.

Writing about encounters with alien species, for example, I'd think wouldn't be easy at all. You need to construct that world and its people and culture. You then need to visualize and then put in words, how that culture interacts with humans.

I think reading tastes do vary. As a book buyer, I won't waste my money on something that doesn't grab me if I can possibly help it. When I have done that, those books go to a book store where I can trade in on something else, usually something I used to have, and no longer do.

[Slayitalldown]

To make me spend money on a book, whether it's a fresh purchase, or replacing an old copy, the stories have to grab me. The author has to be a good story teller. There are some things I read as a child, that I'll reread still, simply because it's a good story. Andre Norton, Walter Farley, and Marguerite Henry were my favorite authors when I was very young, as an example. Would I read those stories again? You bet I would.

When I started broadening my reading horizons, thanks to my mother's sci-fi mag subscriptions, what engaged me was something which made me think. Made me look at it, and think that yes, this is possible, and how cool would it be if it actually happened? It just so happens that being a Trekkie (Mr. Roddenberry coined the term, by the way, and not in the way that many take it today), that in TOS, the screenplays were often written by science fiction, speculative fiction, and in some cases horror authors, most of whom I like to read. Robert Bloch wrote a screenplay for the series which he expanded further for inclusion in one of the Dangerous Visions anthologies, just as an example.

Writing about encounters with alien species, for example, I'd think wouldn't be easy at all. You need to construct that world and its people and culture. You then need to visualize and then put in words, how that culture interacts with humans.

I think reading tastes do vary. As a book buyer, I won't waste my money on something that doesn't grab me if I can possibly help it. When I have done that, those books go to a book store where I can trade in on something else, usually something I used to have, and no longer do.

Hmm.

(First let me say OH GOD ME TOO I LOVED THE BLACK STALLION BOOKS. Books from my childhood haunt me. There was another horsey-book author who's book I devoured and I remember very distinctly that it was the first book to make me cry - heart broken sobs of angsty feels even though now I can't remember the author name but something about a little blind boy and a 'wild' horse... he 'tamed' it by taking it up a mountain every dawn and wishing for his eyesight so he could see her, he goes away for eye surgery and she breaks loose and terrorises the village and when he comes back and find out he goes out to find her and the very first time he lays on his beloved pet mustang *BANG* some bastard shoots her. :'(

I'm adding this to the patchwork formula I am trying to devise.

I didn't consider stories where the 'unwritten words' were a bigger part of the story later on... I remember watching Atonement and thinking about it for weeks afterwards, simply because of the few minutes at the end. Prefer books that are like catacombs, Forever Amber, Earth's Children etc but they seem very 'unfashionable' despite being fabulous best sellers. I've never once met a person who admits they have read or liked them so I'm wondering where all the fans are hiding or if its a secret club that I shouldn't be talking about...

[BronxWench]

I went on a pub crawl in London to visit the pubs featured in the Richard Jury mysteries by Martha Grimes. I'm strange that way, and I like a good pint of cider.

But what makes me plop down money for a book is a story that draws me in because the world and/or characters promise to be interesting. Occasionally, this backfires, but I've also found books that were so unforgettable that they haunt me years later. I don't go for warm and fuzzy, for the most part, but I do like science, and I like my science fiction to be believable.

There are authors I would hug and put on a shelf to talk to forever, if I could. Stephen King is one of them, actually. He can suck me into his world so fast that it's amazing. Mary Doria Russell's "Children of God" and "The Sparrow" will never stop haunting me. CJ Cherryh's Downbelow Station books are a favorite to return to for me. Of course, I mentioned George RR Martin, who is wonderful. Tolkien. Poe. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. Samuel R Delany - "Dhalgren" is another book that will be with me forever. I also love Janet Evanovich's Stephanie Plum books because I adore her humor. Lawrence Sander's "The Tomorrow File." I read Forgotten Realms books because I love the universe, even if some of the writers are a little less polished. I loved the Dune epic.

The only thing my likes have in common is that I like them, I think...

[Slayitalldown]

No, I think you might be onto something - they suspend your disbelief instantly and let you get carried away, the action and the setting/scenery/imagery are never far away from each other.

I try so hard to blend the two together. I find I struggle most with setting and action, I feel like the setting has to come first but it can be built into the boring parts of conversation so by the time its ACTION time to move the story forward the audience has a good sense of where they are where as at the same time, I feel like I should only explain the things people wouldn't know properly.

I remember in Forever Amber I always knew what time of day it was, what she was wearing and what her current beef was but the whole idea of that book was to bring the Court of King Charles II alive - people, setting and environment were all a huge part of the story because it took place in the Great Plague, the Great Fire of London AND the Dutch war... while the king was shagging whatever moved and catching smallpox for his trouble...

P.S. - I found a trick. When 'creating' I suppose, the brain works differently between writing and speaking. I got a dictation program and I'm finding that when I'm stuck in action its easier to dictate, it flows out and I feel like I'm part of it but if I'm trying to slow down and describe to ground setting and stuff, its easier to get it out of my brain by typing. Not sure this is everyone's cup of tea but if the chance arises for experimentation, its out there now.

[Cuzosu]

I've told I write like Stephen King which does nothing to comfort me - I was imprinted very early on with the terror in which his books are supposed to be regarded!

Pfft. I'll say this: my mother hooked me on his books, too, and I don't think his books are as terrifying as so many people say they are. Don't get me wrong, they'd probably be freaky as hell if they were truly followed and made into movies, but as books, I find myself impressed with his skill as a writer. He fleshes out the characters just enough, leaves just enough mystery to have the reader wanting more, includes wonderful action scenes, and has that dark edge that whets my curiosity. (Not to mention the skill the man has with world-building and societal structures.)

In my opinion, to write like Stephen King is not a bad thing. Myself, I can't find a way to keep my humor out, and so the Stephen King comparison doesn't work.

To make me spend money on a book, whether it's a fresh purchase, or replacing an old copy, the stories have to grab me. The author has to be a good story teller. There are some things I read as a child, that I'll reread still, simply because it's a good story. Andre Norton, Walter Farley, and Marguerite Henry were my favorite authors when I was very young, as an example. Would I read those stories again? You bet I would.

When I started broadening my reading horizons, thanks to my mother's sci-fi mag subscriptions, what engaged me was something which made me think. Made me look at it, and think that yes, this is possible, and how cool would it be if it actually happened? It just so happens that being a Trekkie (Mr. Roddenberry coined the term, by the way, and not in the way that many take it today), that in TOS, the screenplays were often written by science fiction, speculative fiction, and in some cases horror authors, most of whom I like to read. Robert Bloch wrote a screenplay for the series which he expanded further for inclusion in one of the Dangerous Visions anthologies, just as an example.

Writing about encounters with alien species, for example, I'd think wouldn't be easy at all. You need to construct that world and its people and culture. You then need to visualize and then put in words, how that culture interacts with humans.

I think reading tastes do vary. As a book buyer, I won't waste my money on something that doesn't grab me if I can possibly help it. When I have done that, those books go to a book store where I can trade in on something else, usually something I used to have, and no longer do.

DG, wonderful points. I have childhood books that I would go back and reread in a heartbeat. For that matter, I have some that are part of an ongoing series that I still read! (Megan Whalan Turner's "The Thief" books, for example.)

Yes. I fully agree with DG. World construction--and societal construction--can play a very big part in a story, especially if that story is in a world the author created. Those two factors will impact every character in the story, regardless of personality; it will just affect them in different ways depending on those personalities. The catch is, it's hard to reveal the details of world or society in a way that the readers appreciate. Too fast or too slow and you'll lose readers, but that in between balance is hard to find and harder to maintain.

I went on a pub crawl in London to visit the pubs featured in the Richard Jury mysteries by Martha Grimes. I'm strange that way, and I like a good pint of cider.

But what makes me plop down money for a book is a story that draws me in because the world and/or characters promise to be interesting. Occasionally, this backfires, but I've also found books that were so unforgettable that they haunt me years later. I don't go for warm and fuzzy, for the most part, but I do like science, and I like my science fiction to be believable.

There are authors I would hug and put on a shelf to talk to forever, if I could. Stephen King is one of them, actually. He can suck me into his world so fast that it's amazing. Mary Doria Russell's "Children of God" and "The Sparrow" will never stop haunting me. CJ Cherryh's Downbelow Station books are a favorite to return to for me. Of course, I mentioned George RR Martin, who is wonderful. Tolkien. Poe. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. Samuel R Delany - "Dhalgren" is another book that will be with me forever. I also love Janet Evanovich's Stephanie Plum books because I adore her humor. Lawrence Sander's "The Tomorrow File." I read Forgotten Realms books because I love the universe, even if some of the writers are a little less polished. I loved the Dune epic.

The only thing my likes have in common is that I like them, I think...

We're all strange in our own ways, BW. No worries.

You know the saying, "Never judge a book by its cover"? I am guilty. I usually do, because if there's a detail on the cover that intrigues me, I always enjoy the book. If I read the back and like it, I'll enjoy the book. And if the title alone is interesting, I'll read the first page or two and see if the author can reel me in. If so, great! If not, then back to the shelf it goes. Genre-wise, I enjoy my action, adventure and humor...but I find myself branching out a lot; I've read the occasional military or autobiography (even biography), and romance sneaks in now and again. I still love the animal books from my childhood, White Fang, Call of the Wild, and the Black Stallion series in particular. (Also one of my grandpa's favorites, At the Back of the North Wind. Surprisingly enough, it's a children's book, too.)

And your last comment, BW, made me laugh.

No, I think you might be onto something - they suspend your disbelief instantly and let you get carried away, the action and the setting/scenery/imagery are never far away from each other.

I try so hard to blend the two together. I find I struggle most with setting and action, I feel like the setting has to come first but it can be built into the boring parts of conversation so by the time its ACTION time to move the story forward the audience has a good sense of where they are where as at the same time, I feel like I should only explain the things people wouldn't know properly.

I remember in Forever Amber I always knew what time of day it was, what she was wearing and what her current beef was but the whole idea of that book was to bring the Court of King Charles II alive - people, setting and environment were all a huge part of the story because it took place in the Great Plague, the Great Fire of London AND the Dutch war... while the king was shagging whatever moved and catching smallpox for his trouble...

P.S. - I found a trick. When 'creating' I suppose, the brain works differently between writing and speaking. I got a dictation program and I'm finding that when I'm stuck in action its easier to dictate, it flows out and I feel like I'm part of it but if I'm trying to slow down and describe to ground setting and stuff, its easier to get it out of my brain by typing. Not sure this is everyone's cup of tea but if the chance arises for experimentation, its out there now.

Setting and action are a pain to get right. But don't put setting first as a solid, unbreakable rule, because I've seen books that start with the action and just enough description of the scenery and opponents to make it like an action movie clip. In some cases, that style works better. You might try it out, see if it works for you.

I suppose I can see how it would work for others (that last paragraph of yours), but for me, I like to take the time to think about my phrasing. Still, it's certainly a good idea.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Cuzosu

[DemonGoddess]

Bronxie and I share many authors as favorites. CJ Cherryh, Stephen King, Poe, and the others she mentioned. Then you have Roger Zelazny, absolutely LOVED the Chronicles in Amber. Michael Moorcock is another fave, with his various avatars of the Eternal Champion.

The thing the authors ALL have in common, is masterful storytelling.

[BronxWench]

Oh, gods, how did I forget Zelazny? And Arthur C Clarke, and Dan Simmons. Ray Bradbury because he reads like an ice cream sundae on a hot night...

[DemonGoddess]

because we like so damn many of 'em?

[Hyperminimalism]

It's honestly a kind of pet peeve of mine as a reader, where I see a writer doing a damn good job, and then you have someone whining that they're not getting to the sex fast enough, because the damn site has "adult" in the domain name. I'd rather read a well written story with no naughty bits, than a piece of dreck that is nothing but that with bad spelling and bad grammar. PWP has its place, yes. Well written PWP is fun to read. But to disguise it as a plotted story, is an insult to anyone's intelligence.

I read this and laughed. As a writer, this is my formula. No, not the 'get-straight-to-the-sex' part, but the focusing on plot and characterization as opposed to rushing into the good stuff, which in my opinion is typically overrated. It's a bonus, but not the goal I am striving for. And I have to admit that it irks me when folks pass up a story simply because it's not riddled with grammar and spelling errors, missing punctuation or the use of too many. Or lacking that immediate gratification with the use of fluff, cuteness, straight-up sex. But who am I to tell those people what they should or shouldn't like? *shrug* In any case, I don't think I can add much to the definition of what 'good writing' is. Everything BronxWench wrote is what I feel good writing should be. Aside from the technical stuff, it becomes very a individual matter, straight down to the genre, setting, time period, sexual orientation, so on and so forth. Good writing is much too detailed to fit into a general description, but you're always going to have a critic or two. Not everyone is going to like what you write, and as long as you have a firm grasp on how to properly use the English language (or whatever language you're writing in), what you like to write is not necessarily going to be the issue.

[Kurahieiritr]

I was an actual editor for several years so I think I'll weigh in on this topic. I am not going to sugar coat the facts as I know them to be in the publishing industry because that would be a waste of everyone's time. I'm sorry if this seems harsh, however, these are genuine facts that need to be considered before dumping the day job. Many published writers still have real jobs because of these facts. Steven King class authors are exceptions to the rules. Celeb status is a different beast that only the delusional think is normal for authors to achieve.

Writers have to have very thick skin to survive in this business. If you think I am harsh, quit trying while you still can because I'm being much nicer than I ever considered being when I was an active duty editor. As Bronx said, you get eviscerated by editors to turn the weak spots into a tight action and quality read, or you get out. Whining is not allowed because the bottom line is the money shelled out and the profits that have to come in to keep the company alive. If you want to pay your bills as a writer, fair warning up front, you can forget it. the average author must publish 3 novels per year to pay their basic bills. Standard purchase contracts are around10 grand for a moderately well known author to get per book contract! Royalties are not big pay outs unless you have a mega hit novel and the sales far exceed expectation.

Do not quit your day job because very few authors ever make the kind of money Steven King and the other rare yet huge success story celeb authors can command!!! The average writer makes approximately 17 grand off of their books and royalties per year if they publish one book per year and have at least 6 selling books to their resume list. Some make more, but again, they also tend to have higher sales percentages over a stable period of a couple years to their credit also.

Good writing is actually a fairly simple matter. Give your main character(s) a root problem with high grade stakes to overcome. I can assure you that every single person I know working in the Publishing industry will throw the work out before they finish reading a full page if they do not see a stakes situation evolving fast for the main character. The same applies to settings and back story. Back story is a flavoring for the main course, not the meat, nor potatoes. If you waste time writing the back story before the first crisis is getting set up, you have a complete waste of paper on your hands because none of the still working editors I know will read past 3 paragraphs before dumping the story in the closest trashcan.

This is the publishing industry Laws within the USA Not one employed editor will care how much action, or perfected the grammar/spelling, nor how neat and pretty a tale's descriptions are if the story fails to deliver a memorable character. Flaws in the other areas can be fixed with editing and revision. Yet, if your character isn't getting emotionally pushed around from page one, you have zero chance of getting published unless you are a known celebrity like Steven King.

You can bitch, scream, whine, and cry all you like about this as currently unpublished authors, but this is one fact you will never get around while the publishing industry is still teetering so precariously on the edge of collapse. The recession recovery remains slow, and E-publishing by vanity presses continue cutting into the Publishing industry's wallets. If the story is very well written, you might find an agent willing to market the completed novel, but that is one of the very few ways to get published without shelling out hard cash right now. The buddy system is a known fact of life in the dog eat dog world of publishing.

If an unknown writer wants even a slim chance of getting published, keep certain things in mind; Plot and Character are always intertwined. Character can be compared to a car. Plot is the highway the car drives upon to get anywhere. You can not ignore either item and hope to win an agent, or get a book signing without having a blood relative if you screw up either aspect. In vanity publishing, expect to pay through the nose to get your story sold.

By the end of the plot trip, the car (character) should evolve and change right alongside the landscape that the character overcomes after screwing up a few times. Plot always has to challenge the very roots of the character's past and their honor/values as a human being, or it is not a plot and the story is a failure. I'll give you an extremely important example of what high level stakes mean in the publishing industry. Someone I respected since the 80's actually came up with this example, but it is a profound one to use so I am going to borrow a paraphrased version.

We'll use a big 20 car pile up. The character drives up to the wreck and there are cars on fire and people screaming. In this example being nice won't make this example book sell even if the character saves every single person involved in that wreck single handed.

Here's the catch to make this a working story an editor might consider; Without some type of root dilemma that creates a lot of high stake emotional pressure for the character to overcome through their own internal strength, no amount of action or description will keep the reader's attention! Without a genuine conflict for the characters, this example is a non selling idea.

You want to sell this book? Raise the stakes until the main character feels a huge amount of emotional pain and has to decide to take the easy road or the high road. While they are pulling people out of those cars, have them contemplating how they just got out of prison and are now getting stalled in their planned revenge against the real criminal who framed them a few years before. Have his/her law breaking, cheating con artist boss who implicated the innocent main character of fraud involved somehow. The new released con who did time in prison while the boss got away with the million dollars embezzled type of stakes works well because it means this character has flaws, and has a back story that you reveal with each person the main heroic action newly released convict saves.

How about an even bigger stake to confound our angry ex convict who was innocent? The ex con stumbles onto the ex boss's family in one of those cars. Make the character's hatred of their ex boss war with their original innocent belief in justice and goodness within humanity, or give up now. That is the industry expectation for making a book sell 90% of the time. The character has to decide that in spite of the crooked boss, the family deserves to be saved and do so while still hating the fact that they belong to an unsavory and crooked man. The main character needs to struggle with the idea of how nice it would be to let the crooked ex boss feel the hell of losing the people he should logically love the most. How should the main character respond? What does this angry, wrongfully ruined individual think and feel as he recognizes the trapped wife of the hated evil enemy? Will he/she save the family, or let them die being the real plot in this story that is filled with actions and has all four proverbial burners cooking on high. Either way, whether the convict saves or damns the family, you have a real plot that is driven by the main character.

By the time the rescues are all made, and the ambulances have all left the scene with the highway cleared, what changes did said main character make within themselves? That is the question most important to keep a reader hooked on your story. Fail to deliver, and the story is garbage material to use as kindling in the publishing industry standards.

[Slayitalldown]

I have been vigilantly studying this topic and gobbling up every bit of advice I can find. So far, from what I can fathom there IS a formula but like a really good recipe it’s a lot of ingredients and flavours - the chef decides when it’s done.

I have appreciated the answers of all who weighed in - there are so many sides to consider! And it has been good to explore these theories all the way through. For each peice of advice there has been an adventure of exploration.

My digging has resulted in a textbook a mile thick and growing but the formula, while elusive, exists in many forms. It sure isn't simple. It’s insanely complicated and depending on the story, subject matter, topic, theme and outcome it’s a sea of variables but underneath are some rules that give you things to aim for. I've listened to nearly 800 podcasts, read no less than sixteen books (with dozens more to go!) and subscribed to... shit, like 40 blogs? There is an ocean of advice out there and I find a lot of it is 'same idea, different words' which has helped me enormously in digesting ideas I wasn't sure on.

I am in love with Writing Excuses, and Word Play by K.M. Weiland (she's a little dry and she plugs her own things for nearly a minute and a half but her podcasts are swift, informative and to the point, I haven't given up on her yet!) I sat in on a couple of writing panels at Comic Con which were also fantastic, hearing someone talk rather than reading information has helped me absorb it. I also bought a dictation program to help overcome writer's block - I discovered to my own delight that due to the difference in thought pattern between writing and talking I can overcome 'blocks' by simply dictating. In a way it helps me get down what I'm thinking in the way that I'm thinking it - when I use typing I get a little baffled by visualising words while images are playing in my mind. However if I'm imagining images rather than words and saying what I'm seeing, I get a much better output. No excuses!

I also made peace with 'Perfect Idea' syndrome. Some podcasts are very unforgiving in dissecting the psychology of writers and they pointed out things I wasn't even aware of. Perfect Idea Syndrome was definitely in there. Now my new companion is speech-cards to use for writing prompts!

There is a place for every bit of advice, it depends what your daily hurdle is. There is advice for the very fundamentals - how you should set up your work-space, what to use (George R.R. Martin uses a computer so old it’s a relic and his assistants live in terror of the day it dies) as an input device, how to look after yourself and manage your time depending on your situation. There is advice on basic English, sentence length and paragraph perfecting... pacing right up to try/fail cycles and how to get the best POV in a situation, whether or not writing exercises benefit writers, the psychology of writing, how to find and deal with agents, when to live the dream and quit the day job and what to do when you finally get a publisher. I’ve heard brand new first time authors, script-writers like Joss Whedon and George R.R. Martin discussing the craft, best-sellers and people who consider themselves almost total failures or rank amateurs interviewing agents, publishers, actors, authors and everyone in between.

I have to confess, I am enthralled by all that I have heard and read on this journey. Being immersed in it, living and breathing it – I can’t escape, it’s on my iPhone, iPad, iPod, laptop and soon-to-be “productivity” and “procrastination” work-spaces – yup, there will be two! – has helped me a lot more than forlornly dreaming and tuning in and out. I consider myself extremely lucky (as well as focused, diligent and a little obsessed) that I can pour all aspects of my life into this one dream and see if I have the mettle to make something of it (when I hit the ground, I’m still on walkabout for two more weeks!) but there is a MOUNTAIN of information to climb and keep climbing. I hadn’t realised that it would take so much information to pull the ‘real writer’ inside out. I’m still no closer to being a butterfly but my cocoon is coming along nicely!

It also has me pondering the ‘review, no, not that kind of review!’ for the casual review whores among us. Some like praise, others prefer concrit, others want all the reviews, others don’t care and I’m wondering if there’s a way to get an unofficial support network going. The ‘promote a story’ area could easily be used to push not just a story but enough about the author to understand what sort of review they require. Let’s not kid ourselves, reviews are water in the desert. A lot of reader/writers do their best to pay it forward by planting the good Karma, writers often demand reviews, beg for them or have more A/N’s than actual story in an attempt to fish for them and in all fairness as a reader I just want THE STORY and as a writer I just want THE REVIEWS. As a reader I need to be nourished with what I’m searching for before I review, as a writer I try to put as much as I possibly can into the story to ensure readers have a reason to review. I’ve received some spectacular reviews but to be honest the buzz is worse than light beer – it wears off so quickly! I never do get the answers to the questions “did I do ____ right/well and is ____ creating a payoff and did I obey all the rules and did I ____, _____, and ____???”

Maybe a ‘promote an author’ thread? Hi, I’m ________ and I write _____ because/for/about and I get the most from reviews that are ______.”

Just a random thought. Good writing is still up for interpretation, good writing is broad term for a complex issue and writing – hobby, lifestyle, obsession, interest, career or ambition is either too hard to summarise or I haven’t found the right words.

Yet.

[Kurahieiritr]

I have been vigilantly studying this topic and gobbling up every bit of advice I can find. So far, from what I can fathom there IS a formula but like a really good recipe it’s a lot of ingredients and flavours - the chef decides when it’s done. . . .

It also has me pondering the ‘review, no, not that kind of review!’ for the casual review whores among us. Some like praise, others prefer concrit, others want all the reviews, others don’t care and I’m wondering if there’s a way to get an unofficial support network going. The ‘promote a story’ area could easily be used to push not just a story but enough about the author to understand what sort of review they require. Let’s not kid ourselves, reviews are water in the desert. A lot of reader/writers do their best to pay it forward by planting the good Karma, writers often demand reviews, beg for them or have more A/N’s than actual story in an attempt to fish for them and in all fairness as a reader I just want THE STORY and as a writer I just want THE REVIEWS. As a reader I need to be nourished with what I’m searching for before I review, as a writer I try to put as much as I possibly can into the story to ensure readers have a reason to review. I’ve received some spectacular reviews but to be honest the buzz is worse than light beer – it wears off so quickly! I never do get the answers to the questions “did I do ____ right/well and is ____ creating a payoff and did I obey all the rules and did I ____, _____, and ____???”

Maybe a ‘promote an author’ thread? Hi, I’m ________ and I write _____ because/for/about and I get the most from reviews that are ______.”

Just a random thought. Good writing is still up for interpretation, good writing is broad term for a complex issue and writing – hobby, lifestyle, obsession, interest, career or ambition is either too hard to summarise or I haven’t found the right words.

Yet.

A: To be honest, there is no such beast as a great first draft. Some are more interesting than others, but so long as the writer is too close to their writing, they will tend to have my precious baby syndrome. Even I get this problem, and I am a retired editor. Part of the problem with requesting specific types of reviews is the lack of understanding about the process on both sides of the fence. Beautiful as the idea is, few people can handle a genuine Pro level review system. You have to tear the original tale apart multiple times to get to a publishable draft. Good writing comes down to less formula than you seem to think. Yes there is a set of criteria that are most often seen in good writing, however, it is not the end all to the process.

I am all for a support group for the serious among our ranks. To get answers to the questions you have about the overall material, you have to find a genuine beta, which is next to impossible in this kind of place. Seeing how the current generation lauds very poorly constructed stories overall, I am not hopeful for getting the kind of feedback such as you are proposing in a place like AdultFanfiction, or any other fandom type free archive. The people who come to read only wish to distract themselves, not switch their brains on with a critical eye for details. You are wishing for details the majority are not seeking to find when they immerse themselves in reading at places such as this one. I get headdesk, or facepalm syndrome with the vast majority of reviews I have received due to the phenomena I have noticed since I got back into fandom writing. If the story is better than the average, readers do fawn over the tale, and ignore the weaker points and lackluster delivery paragraphs.

Really good writing to be had has the single most important denominator: The author pounds out the novel in raw without stopping no matter how off track their plot bunnies get some days without worry about the problem spots. After finishing, they go back and shred their own darling very critically. I am not talking typos and grammar errors. In shredding, I mean they surgically dissect their baby as if it is a piece of garbage that needs getting recycled. They groan about the mediocre phrases, and eradicate the cliches. They recognize the difference between a prettily turned yet very empty of content phrase and a less than perfect, yet high impact sentence. The high impact sentence which spouts gold gets revised while the prettily turned empties get deleted. Before I got here, I only posted stories that I had already shredded and revised multiple times. Once I complete the current mess on my plate so to say, I intend to return to the old rhythm since it works better for me as a writer.

Limp plot threads should get destroyed, and the stronger plots remain as core elements that get polished. Themes should be tweaked and brought into alignment to improve the flow and impact of the overall storyline. To be a good writer means you cannot be lazy. You have to be your own best friend, and worst enemy at different stages. You have to be your own cheering squad, and your own judge/jury at different points along the creative path. The formula you mention is like a good recipe, and it comes down to personal writing style that must be developed over time. Style in the end becomes the foundation of a good story, not any dried out formula that anyone can use equally well. So if you are thinking to write as a formula writer, buy some really expensive software, plug in some perimeters, and the computer will produce most of the work. Read what it spits out. It follows a patent formula, and is as boring a read as you can imagine because it cares nothing for imagination. Imagination is the foundation of style, which is what makes or breaks any storyline.

As to the Author promotion thread idea: The best writers do enjoy feedback, however, I do not think they believe reviews equal water in the desert. The best writers do enjoy knowing people liked or hated what they wrote, but their greatest satisfaction comes from completing the project properly with very tight prose, and hoping someone comes along to let them know that they still can polish any weaker spots they cannot help but miss. Too many fan fiction readers are numb to the nuances to be capable of giving the top notch input that can put a manuscript over the top into a genuine publishable, tightly woven story format. Some readers still have the capability because of understanding things like syntax, and are the exceptions, not the norm. Concrit in any fan based archive tends to lean toward grammar and typos because that is as far as the majority of readers understand they can go. In truth, a pro level edit marks even the best offerings up with red ink, and makes a writer rethink everything they have written. So, although I like your idea, personally I do not see it happening due to the lack of comprehension on how to make it work on the part of the masses. In some aspects, the major reason it will never happen is due to the number of liars who say they want reviews, but who delete the basic typo and grammar problems variety mild reviews. Who can handle the reality of a shred and dice, really in-depth analysis? Very few. Those who can happen to be on the Traditional published ranks list within our archive.

[BronxWench]

I would suggest, if you want a good beta, to find someone whose writing you do like, someone whose work you enjoy. Try and establish a connection, either via reviews and replies, or even a forum PM or email. Get to know them a bit. There's a lot more to a good beta than just skill. Personalities have to match to a degree as well.

You also need to decide what it is you want from a beta. Is it someone who will give you solely grammar and technical assistance, or do you want someone who will be honest and tell you when something isn't working for them? If you write original work, you don't need to worry so much about whether or not they know your fandom, but do they grasp your world? Does your setting make sense for them? If you write fantasy and your beta is not a fan of fantasy settings, you already have an issue since they can't get immersed in your world.

Then there's the dreaded real life issues. If your beta has a family or is in school and is subject to papers and finals, real life is going to intervene from time to time. Nothing is more irritating than waiting for your work to return, but on the other hand, it's equally annoying to feel like your real life is supposed to take second place to the free services you offer as a beta. This is also where having a good rapport comes into play.

It's not so terribly dire. You can find decent beta readers, but it does take more than leaving a post on a thread. Like anything else worth having, you need to work at it a bit. Just don't give up.

[Kurahieiritr]

I would suggest, if you want a good beta, to find someone whose writing you do like, someone whose work you enjoy. Try and establish a connection, either via reviews and replies, or even a forum PM or email. Get to know them a bit. There's a lot more to a good beta than just skill. Personalities have to match to a degree as well.

You also need to decide what it is you want from a beta. Is it someone who will give you solely grammar and technical assistance, or do you want someone who will be honest and tell you when something isn't working for them? If you write original work, you don't need to worry so much about whether or not they know your fandom, but do they grasp your world? Does your setting make sense for them? If you write fantasy and your beta is not a fan of fantasy settings, you already have an issue since they can't get immersed in your world.

Then there's the dreaded real life issues. If your beta has a family or is in school and is subject to papers and finals, real life is going to intervene from time to time. Nothing is more irritating than waiting for your work to return, but on the other hand, it's equally annoying to feel like your real life is supposed to take second place to the free services you offer as a beta. This is also where having a good rapport comes into play.

It's not so terribly dire. You can find decent beta readers, but it does take more than leaving a post on a thread. Like anything else worth having, you need to work at it a bit. Just don't give up.

A: Very true. You summed up beautifully a very real portion of my thought to Slayitalldown's post about an author promotion section getting added to forums to detail the types of reviews sought from the readers of an author's stories. Yet, I do not think anyone can expect all the reviewers at the main story page to act in the same role of a real beta, which is what the post I answered implied to me, possibly erroneously on my part. Betas are the ones most likely to answer the types of questions posted. Finding the right fit is very important in the beta search. Some find a beta easier than others do. A good fit requires very real lines of honest, if occasionally brutal communication about expectations for handling the weaker spots. To me that is a key element to designing a great storyline. Expectations for what is and is not acceptable tends to be one factor we all have to weigh before seeking such services from anyone.

Available time is a problem for the vast majority who are willing to beta. They have real lives, and limited time to read critically to find the majority of glaring mistakes. I have a couple people who I ask to play sounding board, and they do whenever they can clear time on their real world schedule. The input is valuable when I feel stuck on how to make something clearer. However, real world issues do make the necessity for me to do my own research and hard line all revisions whenever I can make time for such necessary also. The majority of reviewers simply do not have the patience, nor inclination to act as betas was my honest intent in answering. Sorry if I did not get that thought across adequately.

[BronxWench]

I work without a beta, for a variety of reasons. I'm pretty good at the grammar and technical stuff already, and I'm fairly diligent at proofreading what I post before I post it. However, my preferred fandoms are obscure enough not to attract a great many potential beta-readers. My original works are either prompt responses here, which are short and sweet to proofread, or they will go out for submission to a publisher, in which case an editor will abuse me until I make it right. I've just never made the right connection as an author with a beta, although I have acted as a beta myself.

[Kurahieiritr]

It is rare that I bother my sounding board people because I know how busy they are in the real world. Short of a genuine writing block moment, I persevere without asking them if they can pinpoint the problem that has me stymied. Setting a aside a completed story for several months while working on other things has often granted me fresh enough eyes to shred my own work with a vengeance to clean out many mistakes and weaknesses within first drafts.

I have yet to enact that step with the two stories I have been posting as I complete a chapter this round. I am very unhappy with both stories I have been posting as I write chapters because I did not sit on them for months before doing my normal "this is garbage" hard shred phase. Guess I need to get my motivation back up to speed. Only then will I stop being so disgusted with the latest two tales I am working on in tandem. To be very honest, I am thinking about a back pedal to do precisely that and not worrying about putting up the newest chapters before I am clearly ready to shred them both from beginning to end. Might increase my productivity since doing it the way others do it seems to be creating a real blockage to my creative flow. Amazing how missing a step of the tried and true routine clearly screws up my imagination.

My problem is finding more of an editor capable of really picking everything apart at a core level. ROFL. Betas are not editors of the class you work with in submission settings most of the time, so I can see why you would work solo. Not many betas are harsh enough to suit me, so I also go it alone on the day to day writing.

[BronxWench]

I actually adore my current editor. She ignores my whining and is merciless about what needs to be done, but she's also encouraging at the same time. It's a fine line, and I honestly have to credit her with making my story stronger and better in so many ways.

I'm trying to incorporate what she's teaching me into my current WIPs. Let's see if I can do it, and then we can move to the next level of editorial interventions.

[Kurahieiritr]

I actually adore my current editor. She ignores my whining and is merciless about what needs to be done, but she's also encouraging at the same time. It's a fine line, and I honestly have to credit her with making my story stronger and better in so many ways.

I'm trying to incorporate what she's teaching me into my current WIPs. Let's see if I can do it, and then we can move to the next level of editorial interventions.

A: Okay, now I am officially envious. J/K. But, finding a good editor is often a tough job since some are great, and others are only seat warmers inside the trad publishing industry I learned when I was working with a micro publisher. Truly good editors do make stories stronger once they are fine tooth combed to omit the unneeded, if prettier, empty crap from a manuscript. Glad you got a good one who is able to bring out your best strengths and style as a writer. Doubt I will ever get back to the point of being a capable editor before I got so ill. Still, I can keep plugging away and improving my abilities as best I am able every day I figure. You'll have to tell me when your book is ready for market. I'll have to see if I can scrape the funds together to buy it. Happy grins.

[Slayitalldown]

On the subject of beta readers... I no longer use a beta reader for fanfiction purely and simply because I write big chapters and I'm impatient. I haven't built the kind of relationships online or in real life where 'hey, read this 10,000 word chapter? kthnxbai' is an acceptable utterance. Maybe its a personality flaw... I actually have a word-count limit dividing 'favor' and 'work'. Seriously, I would rather be a good enough writer that in fan fiction its not needed and as you say, in real life a professional is paid to wave a cat o' nine tails and scream "type, monkey!! Type faster and better!!" at me while I cower and desperately try to please.

There doesn't seem to be an in between market of beta-editors who cater to wannabe authors, those stuck in limbo between wanting to be good enough to be professional and not having mastered/perfected the skill despite a vast knowledge or god forbid, the education and training. If I was to send out a manuscript and it was sent back with 'no thanks' and nothing more I'd be driven to suicide. Not because I consider my writing a precious baby or expect it to be a masterpiece at the first, second or even seventieth draft before an editor would take it but because I have done everything in my tax bracket to learn, study and understand this craft. Unfortunately life tests you first then you learn a lesson, not the other way around and writing to write as best one can is hard without a patient beta armed with a red pen. The other issue is that despite understanding the need, I don't believe in the possibility.

I'm sorry but I don't believe in the unicorn that is a real-live human being with the experience to guide the leap across the chasm from wannabe to potential by saying 'sure! I would love to set my time aside to do that for nothing!' on a full-sized manuscript so I've aimed for being as good as I can be with what knowledge I have gathered and turning it into practice where-ever possible. I simply assumed that once I was brave enough to feel that what I had produced was worthy of at least an agent's time, the terrible and brutal experience that is making the dream come alive would begin as it does for everyone else without a 'writing-nanny' to see me off.

I am sure a beta would be amazing but I'm a kid from the school of hard knocks and we look at unicorn pictures but we know they're not real. We get our hands dirty and our armpits sweaty and we try and try and try out little hearts out but anyone who comes along to say 'hey, why don't you do it the easy way? I know a guy!' usually goes missing, never to be found. Its a long-held natural suspicion of shitty human beings (it could also be cultural) coming to take, rob or steal from the niave and thanks to being churned through that grinder in ways that shattered my life more than once, I have become perhaps a little protective of my writing in the sense that I would rather do things with the lights on... in an office where everyone can see me. I know that might be a self-imposed stumbling block but thems the cards I gots to play with.

I can't think of anything to make this less personal so I might tap out of this topic. I feel a bit nudged out anyway, but I did appreciate all the time and effort put into the answers I got and hope this helped out a few others as well.

Thanks, Slayitalldown.

[DemonGoddess]

As to beta readers, there are some good ones out there, but they're not easy to find. You do build up a relationship with your beta, to be sure. I know when I used to do this, I'd take on anything from a drabble, to multi chapter (with loooong chapters), without issue. But that would be when I had the time to actually beta read, and give the author who sent me the work my full attention.

[Kurahieiritr]

There doesn't seem to be an in between market of beta-editors who cater to wannabe authors, those stuck in limbo between wanting to be good enough to be professional and not having mastered/perfected the skill despite a vast knowledge or god forbid, the education and training. If I was to send out a manuscript and it was sent back with 'no thanks' and nothing more I'd be driven to suicide. Not because I consider my writing a precious baby or expect it to be a masterpiece at the first, second or even seventieth draft before an editor would take it but because I have done everything in my tax bracket to learn, study and understand this craft. Unfortunately life tests you first then you learn a lesson, not the other way around and writing to write as best one can is hard without a patient beta armed with a red pen. The other issue is that despite understanding the need, I don't believe in the possibility.

A: Rarely happens that way. The majority may send a rejection form letter, however, one or two intake editors will often take enough time to give you a few tips such as your started with back story and we cannot publish back story. Then you know to cut the back story, build up chapters and start with the trials and tribulations. From there you can revise so that the character is better known through inserting elements reminiscent to a back story while keeping the flame cooking on the tale's evolution. Starting before the actual first major act is what normally gets new author manuscripts dumped in file thirteen. The second thing is bad writing, not following submission guidelines. Agents are the way to go in this daya nd age if you really wish to get published, but it does have to be original tales to qualify.

I simply assumed that once I was brave enough to feel that what I had produced was worthy of at least an agent's time, the terrible and brutal experience that is making the dream come alive would begin as it does for everyone else without a 'writing-nanny' to see me off.

A: I once had the proverbial writing nanny are you termed the phrase. You are correct that they are a rare item. Mine died of a heart attack, and I miss him tons to this day. Still, keep in mind that giving up is a disservice to yourself.

I am sure a beta would be amazing but I'm a kid from the school of hard knocks and we look at unicorn pictures but we know they're not real. We get our hands dirty and our armpits sweaty and we try and try and try out little hearts out but anyone who comes along to say 'hey, why don't you do it the easy way? I know a guy!' usually goes missing, never to be found. Its a long-held natural suspicion of shitty human beings (it could also be cultural) coming to take, rob or steal from the niave and thanks to being churned through that grinder in ways that shattered my life more than once, I have become perhaps a little protective of my writing in the sense that I would rather do things with the lights on... in an office where everyone can see me. I know that might be a self-imposed stumbling block but thems the cards I gots to play with.

A: As a fellow kid of hard knocks, I can say I do understand your sentiment, although I figure anything worth fighting for is one thing I won't stop fighting for. Betas worth knowing do exist, but they are rare. Find someone who is willing to belive in you as a person, and you might be surprised by what you can achieve. Yes there are frauds out there. I was once naive and it cost me a lot in heartache, and in my case, money to learn the difference. Places like Writer Beware exist to keep others from getting ripped off and taken for a ride. You should probably start looking over their site and reading regularly about the various scams going around.

I can't think of anything to make this less personal so I might tap out of this topic. I feel a bit nudged out anyway, but I did appreciate all the time and effort put into the answers I got and hope this helped out a few others as well.

Thanks, Slayitalldown.

A: Nobody is trying to nudge you out of the topic. Sorry if you took the idea the wrong way. Scratching my head now. Not sure what to say beyond keep at it and continue to grow as a writer. The rest will fall into place over time if you keep tenaciously plugging away to improve.

As to beta readers, there are some good ones out there, but they're not easy to find. You do build up a relationship with your beta, to be sure. I know when I used to do this, I'd take on anything from a drabble, to multi chapter (with loooong chapters), without issue. But that would be when I had the time to actually beta read, and give the author who sent me the work my full attention.

A: It is awesome that you used to do beta work. The real world does tend to get in the way of such projects though, so it is also kind of sad that you found yourself having to stop. Still, the fact that you were among the ranks for a while is a good reminder that there are a few good cookies in the basket of eggs who offer to be a beta. People with the education for it are becoming a rarity in this decade unfortunately.

[GeorgeGlass]

Back when I wrote non-erotic fanfic in a very popular fandom, there were several other authors (all met through FFN, where we reviewed each other's stuff) for whom I betaed and who betaed for me. Now, though, I'm writing erotic PHINEAS AND FERB stories, and other authors who do that (and do it well enough that I would WANT to beta for them or to ask them to beta for me) are extremely rare. Even my wife won't read my stuff--the very idea of P&F erotica freaks her out.

That said, I'm a much more skilled writer than I was years ago, so I feel like I can make do without a beta somewhat better than I could have back then. However, I still find that I don't really have any sense of the pace of my own stories; to me, scenes that are a page or two long often seem far longer, because I've reread them or replayed them in my head time and time again in an effort to get them right.

I think I've completely lost sight of whatever point I was trying to make in the post. Maybe someone could beta it for me.