Fiction Disclaimer

[Guest Leloi]

Isn't fanfiction by definition "fiction"?

Yeah, I know we have the new Public Domain area... but do we really have to state that fanfiction of Public Domain work is fiction? It's not like Sherlock Holmes came to life so we have to distinguish between "real" Sherlock and "fictional" Sherlock. It it's a fanfiction of a work of fiction... it's fiction. There's no "non-fiction" anywhere near there.

It just seems a bit too redundant. Is there even anything in "public domain" that's "non-fiction"? Or maybe separate the fictional public domain (Great Expectations, Sherlock Holmes, etc) from the non-fictional public domain (Origin or Species)? I don't know if it's really the writer's job to tell the world that Sherlock Holmes or Ebenezer Scrooge are fictional characters.

And really... what about authors who think the fictional characters are real? There are societies who pretend that Sherlock Holmes actually existed. So would they put in "non-fiction"? I think the whole "fiction" and "nonfiction" opens up a can of worms as to who exists and who doesn't. I know some people who are sure Harry Potter is real. When that passes into public domain are you really going to let someone say "Harry Potter is a non-fictional character (because I think he existed) owned by JK Rowling"? Because that's what this setup might be in for.

[Guest Leloi]

And really... we're here at adultfanFICTION... shouldn't EVERYTHING here be a work of fiction? Wouldn't it be expected since it's like... a fanFICTION archive? Wouldn't just be easier to say, "Everything here is a work of fiction unless otherwise noted"?

[Guest Leloi]

I'm sorry to harp about this... but this new disclaimer rule really caused me to bang my head on the desk at how stupid humanity has become that we even have to label fanfiction as fiction.

I think, by far... lawyers will be MORE upset about slander and libel then who thinks Harry Potter label as real or not.

On a more philosophical note... how do we KNOW these "fictional" characters are actually fictional or not? There are people out there who will debate with you on whether or not Edward Cullen exists. I've been on the receiving end of that (and plenty who believe they are vampires). And for a while I thought I was a Hobbit... so how do we know what reality is or isn't? Oh sure... they SAY Harry Potter isn't real... but could he be? Maybe that's what the magic born WANT you to think so they can continue hiding their existence! And JK Rowling is really Hermione Granger. These stories take on a life of their own. So who's to say what is fiction or non-fiction?

Again... why we should probably shouldn't let fanfic writers dictate fiction or non-fiction... because... well... Maybe I plan to play "the Game" and label all my Sherlock Holmes as non-fiction, just because that option is open to me now.

[Guest Leloi]

Sorry I can't edit my posts to be one... for some reason I can't sign in.

And what do mods plan to do when the BIBLE is moved to "public domain"? Do you know what sort of problems there will be if some people say "this is fiction" and some other people say "this is non-fiction"? It will be WWIII in that category.

Let sleeping dogs lie and keep the disclaimers the SAME as currently licensed fiction. Fiction is fiction is fiction! It doesn't magically turn non-fiction when the original author dies and the work enters public domain. There's no reason to say, "This is fiction." In my opinion Christmas Carol is a work of fiction unless people really believe that three spirits visited Scrooge (and that Scrooge existed). But we aren't here to point fingers at people because they think that ghosts are real and label their ghost story as "non-fiction". It should just be labeled as "fanfic of story by Charles Dickens, don't own fandom, don't make money" and leave it at that unless you want someone to tag on "AND it's ABSOLUTELY TRUE! Mwahahahaha! Because ghosts are real and will visit you on Christmas Eve! Mwahahahahaa! And Scrooge was my great great great great grandfather!" Because, seriously... Dickens wrote fiction so anything inspired by the fiction he wrote is fiction.

[Shadowknight12]

I would simply like to remind you that the site is bound by American law. The site must abide by the laws that govern its use or risk a lawsuit. Your complaints, valid as they might be, are better addressed to your local congressmen and not to the site itself, its moderators, administrators or owner.

Thank you.

[Guest Leloi]

I would simply like to remind you that the site is bound by American law. The site must abide by the laws that govern its use or risk a lawsuit. Your complaints, valid as they might be, are better addressed to your local congressmen and not to the site itself, its moderators, administrators or owner.

Thank you.

American law says NOTHING about labeling a genre in a disclaimer.

It was labeled correctly. In fact... here's my disclaimer:

Disclaimer: This work of fiction is based on the world of Sherlock Holmes. That comes from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, may he rest in peace. Characters enter public domain very very soon if not already.

It was warned for NOT stating it was fiction... although I'm not sure why considering it's the first statement IN the disclaimer.

[ApolloImperium]

While I can understand the viewpoint you are expressing, I can assure you that the disclaimer policy (which is not new in anyway shape or form) is something that we received guidance on from a legal professional as to what is required to keep the site protected as Fan Fiction is murky water to begin with. Needless to say, while views are always appreciated, the lawyer wins out on this one.

As for specifying if it's a work of fiction? Well yes, as we have a non-fiction area of the site, it is needed. It's just like every coffee cup you get with hot beverage in it from a fast food chain will say "Caution: Hot!" even though you should know this already. Just like they have to say it, so do we. Welcome to the American legal system.

[Guest Leloi]

While I can understand the viewpoint you are expressing, I can assure you that the disclaimer policy (which is not new in anyway shape or form) is something that we received guidance on from a legal professional as to what is required to keep the site protected as Fan Fiction is murky water to begin with. Needless to say, while views are always appreciated, the lawyer wins out on this one.

As for specifying if it's a work of fiction? Well yes, as we have a non-fiction area of the site, it is needed. It's just like every coffee cup you get with hot beverage in it from a fast food chain will say "Caution: Hot!" even though you should know this already. Just like they have to say it, so do we. Welcome to the American legal system.

Because we've lost all common sense it seems. You know other countries don't have this problem, right? And they laugh at us for having all these redundant rules.

Captain Obvious is... Obvious!

Anyway... it still pisses me off that I was warned for something that was already there. As shown above my disclaimer had stated it was a work of fiction. And it was the ONLY Sherlock Holmes fic to get that warning. Why indeed? (ponders rather Holmesian-ly)

[ApolloImperium]

If you would like to talk specifics in an open forum instead of E-Mailing our ToS team, then we shall. Please note that any time we contact an author for a ToS Violation, we keep a record.

Your original disclaimer that earned the warning was the following:

I do not own these characters, they were created by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. They are, however under public domain... but I make no money off this. This fanfic is also posted at another archive under my real name, Gretchen.

You state that this fanfic is posted elsewhere. It does not have the specific wording that we require as per legal advice, ie "This is fiction," "this is a work of fiction," etc.

I would also refer you to this news post where it is discussed: http://www2.adult-fanfiction.org/forum/index.php/topic/17420-site-news-11-6-10/ in specific the final paragraph of the disclaimer information prior to the Calendar Contest info. I've pasted here, but highly recommend you read the entire section about our disclaimer policy.

So please, when one of our moderating staff asks you to correct a disclaimer, know that it is so the site can stay protected. The staff volunteer hours each week reviewing the archive to ensure compliance to our policies, so they honestly do deserve a round of applause for their dedication and not a hard time when they ask you to correct something.

As ShadowKnight said above, ranting in the suggestion area is not the appropriate way to fix the legal system.

[RogueMudblood]

I would also point out that this same disclaimer remains on your other story "Returning Home".

Since you did change the disclaimer, I did remove the review. We do ask you, as authors, to do that once you fix the disclaimers, but I did it for you, since I was the one who left it, and only the reviewer and the owner of the story can do so (except for admin).

Furthermore, there was another Sherlock Holmes story that got the same review: http://books.adult-fanfiction.org/story.php?no=600094752 That author has also corrected the issue, and did delete the review once corrected as requested.

Please do not assume that you are the only one who got a review just because by the time you view the boards the other authors have done as requested and fixed any issues and deleted the warning left.

[JayDee]

Is there even anything in "public domain" that's "non-fiction"?

This is probably pedantic of me, but probably any technical innovations that are out of patent or have otherwise somehow become genericised. Patent expiry in the united states apparantly takes 17-20 years depending on factors.

Edit - Also, your problem with logging into the forum. Someone else once indicated they were trying to log in with their fiction archive username/password, but you have to re-register for the forum. Not sure if that's your thing, but if it is, hope it helps!

Edited February 17, 2011 by JayDee

[RogueMudblood]

I do not see you in the member list for the forum - I checked by author penname. If you did register, please send an e-mail to forums@adult-fanfiction.org or technicalsupport@adult-fanfiction.org and let them know you are having trouble logging in to the forum. (Please only send the message to one e-mail)

If you have not registered, please follow this link: http://www2.adultfan...ection=register

[DemonGoddess]

Okay, we've now touched on one of my to-do's for the weekend.

I JUST created this top level last week. In the course of creating a top level, that is directly related to clean up, I run a query to correct each story's disclaimer, according to which subcat it happens to be in. I've not yet gotten to this step. The ONLY time I don't do this, is for crossover stuff, until we''re done sorting and MOVING the crossover stuff around. And that, only where I've gotten sub sub cats based on the specific crossovers. Frankly, I haven't the TIME to edit each individual story like that, and fix it site wide UNLESS I use a query to do it, based on criteria which allows me to correct multiple stories at one time.

Having said that, I did just that, a couple years ago, throughout the site. After that, it fell back on the user to see to it that the field is properly filled out, once again. By the way, running that site wide, and tailoring the query to each and every different area, took me a little over a week, as I did this after work, when I got home. That was a one time thing. Just as, when I run this query where categories have been moved to this new top level, that correction is ALSO a one time thing. I'll push up my timetable a bit, and go ahead and do this for the new top level when I get home today, rather than waiting a couple days for when I have it scheduled.

Yes, I do schedule my activities, as I have many, many things that I'm the only one doing, because they require direct db access to do them. There can be only one person working in the database directly at any given time, so I can't apportion the tasks out. Not without kicking whoever else (me) happens to be working in it, out. As I'm in the database off and on near continually when I AM home, you can all see why that would not be a good thing. It'd make me right testy it would, since I'm always in the middle of doing SOMETHING.

As to moving the Bible to this new top level, that I can't do. The King James version is copyrighted in perpetuity, everywhere. What this means, is that if I or anyone else finds ANY instance of existing copyright to a published work, unless and until that copyright expires, it cannot be moved to this top level.

Finally, while we all agree having to state the obvious is an annoyance, it's something we have to do regardless. Going back to Apollo's example of hot coffee having to be labeled, we all remember the McDonald's lawsuit which made that a necessity, don't we?

Think about it. Any person realizes hot liquid will scald, if it spills on to you. Yet, because, at the time, they did not label their cups (no one did) with Caution: Hot Liquid, this person who scalded herself AFTER buying a fresh cup of HOT coffee and spilling it on herself while still in the drive thru, was able to sue and win a settlement. So now, as a result, all vendors who sell take out of hot liquids, have to have cups which are labeled Caution: Hot Liquid.

Much the same thing applies to the disclaimer thing. Yes, we all KNOW this is primarily a fanfiction site. However, we also have our originals section, and real person fiction section. With having true stories able to be published in originals, and the real person thing, we HAVE to state 'this is fiction'. Look in the front of any book you buy, and you'll see the same sort of language. Look at the end of a movie or tv show when the credits roll. Again, there is always a disclaimer. As Apollo mentioned earlier, the disclaimer thing is not new. It's something that's had to be done for a number of years, since late 2004 I believe (Apollo can tell you for certain). With this being early 2011, that's six plus years that this has been in place.

[DemonGoddess]

I've run the query for the new top level, and changed all disclaimers accordingly.

[Keith Inc.]

And what do mods plan to do when the BIBLE is moved to "public domain"?

The King James version of The Books is older than copyright law and is in the Public Domain (except in Britain). Specific modern translations do have copyrights. Quoting from the New American Standard The Books is a no-no beyond the 'Fair Use' parts of copyright law.

Do you know what sort of problems there will be if some people say "this is fiction" and some other people say "this is non-fiction"? It will be WWIII in that category.

I've written The Books fanfiction. Saying that the story that is located on AFF is fictional is NOT the same as claiming that the source material is a work of fiction. This is misunderstood by the people who make the petitions to remove Bible categories from FF and AFF.

[Keith Inc.]

As to moving the Bible to this new top level, that I can't do. The King James version is copyrighted in perpetuity, everywhere.

In perpetuity in Great Britain, but not everywhere outside of GB's jurisdiction. At least, that's my understanding. It's why the author of Skeptics Annotated Bible uses the KJV for his website.

[DemonGoddess]

That's the point Keith. If a work is copyrighted ANYWHERE, we cannot move it to this top level.