InBrightestDay
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8 hours ago, JayDee said:
She knows what happened to Luzurial, and I actually have a story in mind to write some time about her reactions to it and how she secretly tried to get Luzurial out without anyone knowing, but failed because she’s a demon – Eparlegna apparantly didn’t want any of his pettier fellow denizens of the pit (Hi, Duchess) ruining his work of art just to mess with him, or inspiring any mortals to do it for the same reason, so only angels or non-demonically influenced mortals can do it.
I...actually kind of want to read that. It would be sad, but it would also be comforting somehow to know that somebody outside of The Least I Can Do (which I haven’t even uploaded) actually cares about what happened to Luzurial. I know that sounds odd, but that’s how it is.
QuoteShe doesn’t know about Kizurial’s involvement in the commands– word has reached some non-angels (Hi again, Duchess), but didn’t make it to Shannon yet. And, yes, awkward probably isn’t quite the word
And I kinda want to see that for exactly the same reason, also because it would be all kinds of dramatic. On the other hand, the 1000 word limit might keep the exchange from being done justice, and seeing as Kizzy did just almost die, it might be a little soon for her to have that conversation.
Quotebut they’ve worked through it by FHP and You! at least. Strong friendship!
No kidding. I’m guessing it sort of simmers beneath the surface, with Kizzy not wanting to bring it up because she might feel a little guilty (though how much is anyone’s guess) and Shannon not wanting to bring it up because she knows it will make her angry at her friend...though periodically she might end up thinking about Luzurial screaming behind her own eyes and want to bring it up.
At any rate, please don’t think I’m trying to dictate what you write in any of your fics. You do you. This is mostly just me venting again.
Of course, during this discussion...
QuoteHey, you, sweetie, got any succubus in you? Would you like some
I do so love Shannon’s pickup lines.
QuoteAnyway, no doubt due to some kinda Narnia time-passing-relatively-faster between the two parrallels as a result of the statue merely existing in one of them making the universe itself want to end quicker to be rid of it (it’s the best theory I got so far)
Or the passage of time just isn’t synchronized in all universes.
Quoteby the time Kizurial comes to terms with the fact she made a mistake in her interpretation of justice, and basic fuckin’ empathy, and agrees that the order not to help Luzurial should be rescinded, 75 years have passed within the WoH universe and a curious (or… dun dun DUNNN! divinely inspired?
) college guy has taken action and the events of The Woman in the Statue have happened
So, that’s the other thing I wanted to bring up. You mentioned this:
QuoteTolkien had a great sense of continuity, I barely keep continuity within the same scene
I feel like you had a strong continuity in the Kizurial stories before I accidentally wrecked it by writing The Woman in the Statue, which threw Chapter 3 of The Slumber Party of Evil Doom into canon limbo. If you wanted to lock that down, all you need to do is invoke your authority to de-canonize WitS. My little therapy project goes back to being what it was before, Whore of Heaven fanfiction, and you get continuity back. Eparlegna is reincarnated into Luzurial, who stays in the statue either for 2 undecillion (minimum proton half-life) to 30 tredecillion (maximum proton half-life) years...or until Kizzy decides to let her out.
If you want to resolve this in your own way, feel free to declare the story I kept referring to as a non-canon sequel to be a non-canon sequel.
Also, between what I’m saying right now, what you said earlier and what pippychick said while responding to my review on The Pollution of George Farrow, I’m starting to think we’re all in some kind of mutual support group for authors with low self-confidence.
Don’t break it up, mind you; I need this support group. I’m just pointing it out.
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9 hours ago, JayDee said:
I figured actually being back there might hit Shannon harder than she expected. It’s been billions of years, and she’s trying to be a decent, but still she is the enemy, the betrayer of her duty who fell at the dawn of things.
There’s actually an additional aspect to the sadness. Shannon states that this is never to be her home again. While it’s never stated explicitly, it’s implicit in the setting that if demons are fallen angels, then they can redeem themselves. It would explain why Luzurial offered to let Eparlegna leave peacefully in spite of how she must have felt about what he was doing to her mortal charges: erasing him from existence removes whatever tiny chance of redemption he may have (this also adds to the tragedy of Luzurial suffering horribly for being nice), and would explain why the Fallen were exiled instead of killed, since exile allows them to contemplate their mistake and potentially repent. Last but not least, it would mean Kizzy likely scored some points for her ultimate decision not to kill Shannon.
So Shannon’s assumption that she can never go home is especially sad because, in spite of her genuinely kind heart, she appears to have assumed that she is beyond redemption.
9 hours ago, JayDee said:The whole thing ties in with the idea I had that there might have been a certain amount of bad feeling towards Kizurial, so when Shannon uses her name it encourages the Principality to mete out a harsher punishment than usual for breaking back into Paradise. That’s all stuff Kizzy needs to recognise and come to terms with, and ultimately, try to make amends for.
This raises another question. Back in The Slumber Party of Evil Doom, Shannon only recognized Eparlegna as a demon who had wreaked havoc on an alternate Earth, which begs the question: does she know what happened to her commanding officer and mentor?
When I said things were going to be awkward when Kizzy got out of the lake, I had meant for that Principality (and also for Jude if he wakes up), but things might get really awkward for Kizzy and Shannon as well.
Shannon: What was up with that whole statue thing?
Kizzy: You may wish to sit down...
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2 hours ago, Sinfulwolf said:
Crap… this is your review thread.
You kidding me? There was a discussion on the nature of divine omniscience and how it relates to morality over on JayDee’s thread! This is nothing.
2 hours ago, Sinfulwolf said:As to the art… it was commissioned. I asked a friend to do it up, but the pin-ups were commissioned. There is one piece floating around that I’ve not shared here yet that was part of a trade but… yeah. Guess I’ve got the authorial arrogance and neediness. Well, fuck.
I see it’s time to break this out again:
I didn’t mean to imply that there was anything wrong with commissioning art in the abstract, but rather meant to imply that commissioning art from this story would be needy or arrogant on my part. I’ll try and explain in more detail via PM.
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9 hours ago, Sinfulwolf said:
Heh, I am?
Absolutely! I read Comin’ Home, but didn’t feel qualified to leave a review because the story is part of a larger tale I wasn’t familiar with. However, your ability to communicate the emotions of the characters, the sense of a long term relationship and the dislocation felt by someone returning after a long absence was extremely impressive.
I haven’t gotten to Blood and Lace yet, but I know you’ve really made an impact with it because I saw in the art room that you have fan art. I know you said it was by a friend, but it means your characters made such an impression that your friend wanted to make those images.
If I ever wanted, say, a group picture of Luzurial, Kevin, Abdul and Calista, I’d have to ask for it or commission it, which would be more a show of authorial arrogance and neediness than the display of real love that fan art is.
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9 hours ago, JayDee said:
I’m glad you found that funny! I really wanted to include it, but had no idea if anyone else would find it amusing. I am kinda puerile and immature sometimes.
I think there’s some part of us, deep inside, that never matures past age twelve. And in any case the ”not what I was talking” about joke is one I’ve always enjoyed.
QuoteI don’t recall what I was thinking with the offer in WoH, but I’m pretty sure for the TSPoED that Kizurial was offering a total cessation of existance.
It’s probably about the same thing. I mean, to paraphrase, it went like this:
Luzurial: Go home and stop hurting these people.
Eparlegna: How about no?
Luzurial: Well okay then. *draws sword*
Speaking of which, that’s another moment of yours in the “Luzurial is awesome” category, to the point that I honestly got kinda mad when she stepped into the trap immediately afterward and he laughed at her. I was all “Stop laughing at her; she was being badass!”
But, you know, needs of the genre and all.
QuoteFrom her point of view the fallen were sent to Hell as punishment, and that punishment has continued for billions of years despite some of them briefly making it to mortal worlds like Earth before being sent forcefully back. To Kizzy oblivion is a way to end that torment and be free so it feels like a better option to her, especially if she doesn’t see much hope of them ever being redeemed – and I’m sure it can be done painlessly, too.
Just to be clear, I’m not saying it’s worse than damnation (because obviously it isn’t), and I suppose it fits a certain definition of “free.” You can’t very well be upset about not existing if you don’t exist...but the idea of it is terrifying (again, for people who believe in the afterlife).
QuoteI hope your sorting out part 7 of 9 of The Woman in the Statue goes well. If it gives you trouble just tell it “Resistance is futile.”
It’ll be up Wednesday morning. Still worried about it, but I’ve reached a painful acceptance that the problem isn’t one I can fix.
QuoteIf you were a grievously wounded seraph, where would you ask to be taken?
Well, my first thought would be outer space, where if she transforms and radiates like a solar flare it won’t cause a mass extinction, but that’s a bit of a simple solution.
The second option, though...I don’t know if Shannon has a pass to get back in there yet...
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10 hours ago, Sinfulwolf said:
Your rambling there did make sense. But, while it’s good to have a support system, my exact concerns are going to be these two make love, and everything gets fixed (there’s only a few chapters left after all and at least one of them is going to be stopping the threat to the world). As JayDee said, making it F/F wouldn’t have made this particularly better. And I’ve not said you’re going to go that route… it’s just kind of primed for it right now.
You’re very kind to keep giving me the benefit of the doubt, but I don’t think I deserve it. I’m trying to handle the story element as best I can, but ultimately I don’t know that I can do it well.
I’m not saying it can’t be done well; I know it can. I just don’t think I’m talented enough to do so. Part Seven should be up Wednesday morning, so we’ll have a better idea then, but I apologize in advance. You’re an amazing author, SinfulWolf, and I’m sorry if I disappoint you.
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14 hours ago, pippychick said:
Don’t mind me, I’m a tough cookie, and furthermore I’m British therefore I understate. You should read ‘it touched my heart’ as: ‘I was suddenly transported to that bathroom, and I could feel all the same things she was feeling, and it hurt, and I wanted to put my arms around her and make it all right again.’
I fear you may have overstated there, but as it happens you did sum up my feelings throughout the last chapter of Whore of Heaven. You can look at my review of Part Three for the full explanation, but the TL;DR version is that I started at “this woman needs a hug” and ended at “Ooooooh God someone please hug her now.”
Which, of course, is why this story exists. Its alternate title could pretty much be “Hugs for Luzurial.” Like I said, I’m kind of emotionally sensitive.
QuoteAh… well, I just recently rewatched ‘Fallen’ and I kept imagining a lovely young Denzel Washington, so it was a bit of a surprise for me when he suddenly turned.
Don’t worry; it wasn’t supposed to be obvious. Never actually seen Fallen, though Denzel is awesome in pretty much everything.
- pippychick and JayDee
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Well, going from nervousness over my handling of Kevin and Luzurial’s relationship to a wonderful review from pippychick is some serious Mood Whiplash.
Quotepippychick
I know there's a great scene later in this part, and yet I'm not going there right away. I wanted to point out how much I adore this particular juxtaposition:
Luzurial was an archangel of the heavenly host, tasked with guiding humans and protecting them from threats they could not imagine. She had proven herself in battle a thousand times over. She was power and grace and virtue and compassion made flesh.
And she couldn’t stop crying.
Especially in this context, it's such a powerful literary device, and it touched my heart.
Thank you so much! So JayDee knows about this, but recall how you said during your review of Whore of Heaven how you have to feel things to write the stories you write? Well, I work exactly like that too, very possibly moreso. I’m kind of sensitive emotionally (which is why I asked for permission to write this story) and I actually made myself cry while writing this sequence, with Luzurial’s PTSD flashback and her breaking down crying in the bathroom. I was hoping I would manage to communicate at least some of the emotions I was feeling, so I’m glad it worked at least partially.
QuoteI love that you're not shying away from the psychological implications of what has happened to her. It's so important, and it will inform how she acts going forward.
I feel like it would be a pretty crappy hurt/comfort fic if I didn’t acknowledge just how badly hurt she is (not just physically) by the end of the first story. I hope that what I’ve written going forward works for you.
QuoteSo, we now know at least a couple of the human baddies, though I'm quite sure they don't know the fate of Eparlegna's last human lackeys. I hope something similar awaits them.
Well, not exactly what happened to Shondra and Molly, but there are bad things in store for Cassie and Hobbs.
Speaking of which, now that you’ve reached this point, it’s time for another Names That Mean Something.
“Adrian” doesn’t really mean anything as far as the story is concerned, but “Hobbs” is an English surname derived from the medieval given name Hob. Hob is a medieval short form of Robert, but “Old Hob” is a nickname for Satan, so you know...bad guy name.
QuotePoor Barbara - I really felt amazingly sorry for her, but the scene was hot at the same time, especially the moment when she realised she wanted it.
Funny you should say that, because Barbara is like a microcosm of what happens to characters in Whore of Heaven. She mostly resembles Luzurial, in that she’s an admirable female character committed to doing good who makes an honest mistake (Luzurial disobeys orders; Barbara assumes a dirty cop will surrender when caught instead of lashing out), suffers sexual violation, and then has something horrifically violent happen to her. She’s also linked to Yolanda Dawson, since the horrifically violent thing is that Eparlegna eats her alive. Very, very slowly, complete with hell magic to keep her alive until her disembodied head was swallowed.
At the very least, an eighteen meter dragon takes larger bites than an eight foot demon, so it took a little under ten minutes for her to be eaten (I think Yolanda was eaten over the course of an hour).
QuoteInteresting that the tentacles didn't fill her mouth too.
I knew I forgot something!
QuoteAnd he's back. Bugger.
Well, I wanted to have a big, climactic battle at the end of the story, so…
QuoteI'm not sure what you're worried about - you did a great job! And for what it's worth, I've read more than a few tentacle scenes, and written a couple. I wouldn't have had you down as writing your first one
I did research. Literally, I looked for things both here and on Literotica with the “tentacles” or “tent” tag and then tried to analyze what the authors were doing in the scene. Some of them were pretty bad, but others were pretty good, and I did take some pointers for writing this one.
QuoteHonestly I'm not sure what kind of thing you were into writing before you came here to AFF
Gundam fanfiction. That’s what I wrote over on fanfiction.net (and if I ever get my act together, I have more of that to write!), and it allowed me to practice writing prose as well as action scenes (the Gundam shows are space operas, so there’s lots of directed energy weapons and things blowing up).
QuoteYour prose is excellent. There are a handful of authors I can just settle down to read, knowing I'll be entertained, and you've joined that handful.
Thank you so, so much!
I may very well faceplant before reaching the end. As I mentioned in previous posts (I won’t spoil anything in this one) I’ve tried to gradually build up the relationship between Kevin and Luzurial in a way that doesn’t make him look like a creep or make her look weak, but my ability to mitigate the cliches is not guaranteed. I hope it remains entertaining to read for you nonetheless.
- JayDee and pippychick
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SinfulWolf
That certainly must have been difficult to write
It was toward the end. I really don’t like doing rape stuff; I’m more into the “give your partner as many orgasms as you can and then cuddle until you fall asleep” kind of sex. However, in the case of Eparlegna, this is just kind of what the character does, and I figured he’d use the opportunity both to hurt Luzurial some more (because it’s fun) and to hurt Kevin by making him watch (because he annoyed Eparlegna).
QuoteI think the danger though of introducing so many different forms and creatures is that you slow down the action to show what it is. And this chapter should be very fast paced considering all the chases.
Yeah, it’s tricky finding the right balance. On the one hand, I’m an extremely visual person, so I tend to really paint a picture of the monster. On the other hand, as you said, describing the monster means stalling the action for a bit.
QuoteAnd those chases were quite well done. Lots of destruction and fear and some good scrambling milimetre escapes.
Thank you!
I rather enjoyed writing the Wrath creature chase; I almost felt like I was writing a Jurassic Park scene or something.
Oh, and I didn’t mention this before, but the hissing shriek the Wrath construct makes is actually a videogame sound. If you’ve ever played Gears of War, it’s that noise Berserkers make when they charge you.
QuoteThe other thing I'm concerned about this story now, is that this is going to turn into another "woman heals from her brutal rape because of a man". Especially for something as seemingly powerful as an arch angel, the story seems getting primed to place her in that "soft weak female" box that needs the protection, help, love, and affirmation of a man.
Well...yes and no. You might want to get a drink or something, as this may take a while.
So this is an issue I walked into with eyes open. I've known about it for quite a while now. Heck, JayDee even made a joke about it in the very first post of their Originals review reply thread.
Quotethe Angel story is thousands of words (and earned me a brilliant email asking if I was against God, and if not could the seminary-attending-yet-porn-story-reading emailer do a follow up where the angel was saved by twu luv. I said go for it...
Granted, my actual degree is in Biology (and I wasn’t asking whether they were “against God” but rather whether Whore of Heaven was intended as an anti-religion piece; I didn’t want to write anything that would contradict the original story’s themes/message), but the point remains.
I never intended for Luzurial to come across as a weak character, merely vulnerable in a specific area. She's a combat veteran with superhuman strength and durability, as well as the experience of a military career that stretches back fourteen billion years. However, she is vulnerable specifically when it comes to the issue of sexuality. In Whore of Heaven, it's established that angels are required to be celibate (or at least they think they're required to be celibate), so while she clearly knows what sex is, Luzurial has a degree of naivete on the subject that I always found deeply sympathetic. Over the course of the story, she is attacked and shamed repeatedly, specifically using sex (and her body's involuntary reactions to it) as a weapon against her.
By the time we meet her in The Woman in the Statue, she's also spent 75 years inside of the coating, during which time, when she can form coherent thoughts through her pain, all she's really been able to think about is everything she did wrong, second guessing every single decision she made that led her to where she is now.
Given all of this, by the time she's freed, Luzurial's self-esteem is pretty badly damaged. I have no doubt she could heal on her own, but it always helps to have a support system. Kevin, in spite of his one actiony moment here in Part Six, is not really capable of helping in battle, so the only thing he can offer her is to be that support system. This is particularly important concerning what I mentioned back when I was responding to your review of Part Four, namely, that Luzurial has elements of her experience that she considers her Dark Secret.
In this case, the Dark Secret is the multiple orgasms she experienced during the sexual assault back in Whore of Heaven. Now, she hasn't actually done anything wrong (arousal and orgasm are involuntary physical reactions), but due to the perceived ban on angels ever knowing physical pleasure, she considers this a sort of shame. Some of my research also indicated that sometimes rape survivors feel ashamed, especially if they cooperated with the rapist in any way, which Luzurial eventually did.
Taking all of this into consideration, I felt like on this one issue, it would help to have someone else, someone she trusts by now, actually able to tell her that she is not at fault for this, because I'm not sure it's something she would realize on her own for quite a long time.
Of course, the fact remains that ultimately Kevin is a male character helping a female character feel better, and that was never far from my mind. As JayDee can attest, I was quite nervous when I sent them the draft for Part Seven, specifically over this issue. In Part Seven, I tried (though I won't guarantee that I succeeded) to mitigate it by giving Luzurial intiative. When Luzurial tells Kevin about what was done to her 75 years earlier, it's when she decides to. When their relationship turns physical (I figure everyone knew that was going to happen), it's her idea.
In hindsight, I suppose I could have dodged this bullet rather neatly by making Kevin into Kelly and having this be an F/F story instead of an M/F story, but ultimately het stuff is just what I write (maybe just because it's my own sexual orientation), and I only just thought of this option now, after having posted two thirds of the story.
So, like I said, yes and no. Yes, this is a story about a female character who's been hurt, and a male character who wants to help her heal, and since it is to some extent a romance love is part of that. However, I am endeavoring not to make the female character look weak (she's definitely not had the last of her badass action hero moments, and in Part Nine Kevin even gets to be kind of a Damsel in Distress). Everyone is vulnerable from time to time (I'm very much counting myself here) and I don't think it says anything bad about you if you lean on someone else, or as Kevin puts it in Part Seven "Just because you're a total badass doesn't mean you're not allowed to cry."
Hopefully that made some level of sense. I know it was kind of rambly.
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6 minutes ago, pippychick said:
Whether Kathy appears as her own gender, even I’m not sure, but I did have a feeling that the older, less specific legends of the Lady in the Lake might be connected to this spirit somehow. In the end, I decided not to make a point of it.
I’d imagine the cloak makes it hard to discern gender anyway.
QuoteI’ll also get to read some more of yours once the weekend is done and I’m off work again
No rush.
QuoteWill Kev and Luzurial get down to it? How guilty will Kevin get? Will Luzurial need to give him a small dose of amnesia to get him through it? Ohhh, imagine that: every time is the first time…
(very minor spoiler) No amnesia, but she does have to give him a little durability boost. She’s super strong, after all, so sex with her would be rather hazardous otherwise!
- JayDee and pippychick
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9 hours ago, JayDee said:
From the Duchess’ point of view, scoring a kill against a Seraph would be great for her standing in Hell, but she also gets to make Shannon suffer by hurting her friend. That’s maybe even more important to her because Shannon left her service for Kizzy’s friendship. A lot of these arrogant demons are petty as fuck when I write ‘em
Actually, while there’s some level of pettiness to it, I don’t know that that’s all there is. Kizzy is doing some real good here. She’s in the process of redeeming a fallen angel in the form of Shannon, has likely kept Kate from harming any innocents, has headed a team that’s foiled or interfered with any number of schemes (as Sarsa could attest) and, in human form, has an additional effect that’s difficult to quantify. Every person whose life she touches, everyone whose day she makes just a little bit better is someone who will find it just a little easier to choose Good over Evil.
Killing Kizurial isn’t just a spiteful punishment of Shannon; the Duchess is playing the Long Game.
And she’s petty as fuck.
QuoteWhen the order came down not to break Luzurial free there would have been a few in the old chain of command keen for others to know it wasn’t their order. I figured this degree of bad feeling would become known to some of the more well informed demons in Hell.
Seems reasonable. Agents of Heaven and Hell might interact from time to time on Earth (or elsewhere on the material plane) in ways other than outright combat (that would draw far too much attention), and information may pass back and forth if only by accident. Succubi seem like a natural fit for this role, since their preferred tool, seduction, requires a keen understanding of how to communicate with and read people.
QuoteI’m grateful for all the reviews! The thing is rape, torture, snuff, gynophagia, anal fisting, and that godawful cop humor are a very niche product. I’m fairly sure most readers here just want to see Draco and Harry have babies, or Hinata fucking everyone except whatshisface (or the same for whatever fandom/original subcatagory they’re in). So, yes, some readers might like and enjoy it, whether for the porn, the horror, or Eparlegna’s natty suit at the end, but I think probabably most wouldn’t. Also, with 9 reviews out of 10334 hits on AFF (Plus one or two by email when the old grey archive was around, and when I was on hentai foundry’s writer section) I do think it’s safer to say that the vast majority of readers probably weren’t that bothered.
So I put the info there like with the “See more Kizzy here!” in part 1, but unless I’m talking to someone who specifically likes those kinds of themes I don’t say “Go read this stuff!” about the violent porn. If that makes sense! If not, me rambling again. I do that.
No, that makes perfect sense, and I actually misunderstood what you were saying in the Author’s Note. See, I wasn’t saying you should write “Go read this stuff!” What happened was that when I heard you say “You, um, you probably don’t want to read it,” I didn’t realize that was you saying “Warning: if you read, you may see this shit in your nightmares,” but instead thought it was you beating up on yourself as a writer again.
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On 2/27/2019 at 11:09 AM, pippychick said:
Ah, well, I don’t want to say too much in case I spoil the second chapter for you. But when/if you read, I hope you enjoy it and that it makes sense.
I’m trying to keep up with reading/reviewing several stories right now, but I should get to Chapter 2 tomorrow.
QuoteAnd thank you for the compliment! I must admit, I paid close attention to some of my phrasing and word choices in this fic, because it added to the atmosphere, and I was hoping to make suggestions without the reader being fully aware of it. For example, “... once she'd hacked a couple of feet off the bottom of it.” was supposed to give you a specific literal mental image, even if your conscious mind rejects it immediately as incorrect. It was still there… hopefully.
Oh, it absolutely works! The “hack” choice in particular does, the more violent connotation has a sort of subconscious uncomfortable effect on the reader (it did on me, at any rate). And you’re right about having an immediate mental image that your conscious mind rejects; it’s cool to know you were doing that on purpose.
Sorry for how long it took for me to say anything about this, by the way. I literally just checked the TV forum today!
- pippychick and JayDee
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pippychick
Well, as you can imagine, I love this idea of applied theology, and the coming together of different religiions to defeat the demon.
I didn’t realize it at the time, but Applied Theology is basically Defense Against the Dark Arts for a non-Harry Potter setting. The idea of all the different faiths coming together is me being kind of an optimist. I know it’s just as likely we’d start infighting (and I’m sure there was some of that in the setting), but I’d like to think that if an actual legitimately-from-Hell demon was rampaging across America, that everyone would be like “Ok, that’s the bad guy; we should all work together.”
QuoteI was even happier when the bullets didn't harm Luzurial
Well, she got a little banged up from the hypersonic Gungnir round, but nothing too severe by her standards. I actually figured it was kind of important that bullets without proper inscriptions shouldn’t work. After all, if bullets work on extradimensional beings, then the Army really shouldn’t have had too much trouble with Eparlegna back in 2007.
Quoteand she seems quite taken with humanity.
That was something I kind of inferred from Whore of Heaven. She came to Earth to help, after all, even after orders came down from the top (like, the very top) that she wasn’t supposed to. One could interpret this as sheer arrogance, and some level of Pride is certainly present, but the way she stops to help survivors in LA, the way she hesitates to free herself because it would harm the caged women, even though their souls would be safe...all of that suggested to me that her main motivation for trying to intervene was that she cares very deeply about humans, and doesn’t want to see any unnecessary suffering.
So, for The Woman in the Statue, I assumed that she is very, very closely bonded to her mortal charges, and really does love this world she was assigned to protect.
QuoteI wonder if the reward for her bravery means she's going to get to dally on Earth for a while and indulge her curiosity.
If I were simply writing a Warm Fuzzies piece, that would probably happen...but of course I’m writing a story with action and monsters and whatnot, so she’s not going to have a lot of time to do that.
QuoteI didn't say in my earlier review for Part One, but when the female cop turned up, I was quite suspicious and uneasy, having seen in JayDee's story how the worst in people can be manifested. I rather think there are enemies, even if we don't know who they are yet. It remains to be seen who they are, and whether they are truly dark souls, or if they're just unwilling to accept Luzurial as an ally/protector/friend.
Lilia Martinez is actually a good cop, and she’ll pop up again for a cameo in Part Eight, but there are bad cops, and you’ll run into a few in the next two chapters.
QuoteA little bit of concrit here, but I keep getting thrown out of the story a bit when you mention the height of characters in centimetres. Only my opinion, but since we know Luzurial is tall, unless it's important to the story in some way to express everyone's exact height, I'd ditch it.
Funny thing: I wasn’t even doing that consciously. Looking back on it, I realized that I gave height measurements for all our main characters (Luzurial, Kevin, Abdul, Calista and Chloe) just as part of their description. The good news is that that tapers off as we get farther into the story. There’s one more character in Part Four who gets height measurements in cm. After that, things, generally monsters, do get sizes, but it’s rounded to the nearest half a meter (i.e. “approaching two and a half meters tall”, etc.) or whole meter.
The use of centimeters is due to me having the US using the metric system by this point, because it’s THE FUTURE!!! (there should be an echo on that).
Actually, that’s how you know I’m writing fantasy: not the archangel character, the demonic invasion or the magic, no, the most unrealistic part of the setting is that the US switched to metric.
QuoteAlso, you have a typo here: Gibbs, you’re target’s a blonde
SONOFABITCH!
*five minutes later*
Fixed! Thank you for pointing that out.
- pippychick and JayDee
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9 hours ago, pippychick said:
Sorry to have derailed this thread and gone so far OT. Luzurial’s fate did prompt this discussion, though, so I’m blaming you
The irony of the situation is that this is kind of the same thing that happened back in 2008 when I read Whore of Heaven, got all depressed and wrote to JayDee asking if I could write what, ten years later, would become The Woman in the Statue. I literally asked if WoH was intended as an anti-religion piece, not because I was mad, but because I didn’t want to write a sequel that would contradict the original story’s message.
- pippychick and JayDee
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pippychick
Oh, this is really wonderful! I have to admit you've quite drawn me in. Kevin is just lovely, and I already adore him, including all those little bits and pieces we're finding out about him.
Thank you!
I suppose now is as good a time as any to bring up some of the names of the characters. Not everyone’s name means something of course, but some of them do.
Kevin is derived (eventually) from the old Irish name Cóemgein, which starts with the Gaelic word cóem, which means “kind” or “gentle”. He has some issues, including the odd flash of anger, but he’s very gentle with Luzurial.
Abdul is kind of a cheat, in that it’s a Pakistani name derived from the Arabic words Abd al, which just mean “servant of the”, but I was kind of going for a reference to the Arabic name Abd Allah, or “servant of God”. Sirki is a Pakistani name referring to a leather worker, which means it’s kind of the equivalent of “Tanner” or something.
Chloe is an English name meaning “green shoot” in Greek. ‘Cause, you know...she’s new. Liu is a Chinese surname meaning “kill” or “destroy”, which sounds pretty bad, but it fits her role on what is basically a preternatural SWAT team.
Luzurial, according to JayDee, is derived from the Spanish luz, meaning light, as well as a deliberately misspelled version of the Archangel Uriel’s name. It’s good that it’s misspelled, since Uriel translates from the Hebrew as “light of God” (or possibly “God is my light”), so Luzuriel would be kind of redundant.
QuoteThe healing is to be expected, and yet you've managed to make this all seem real. Of course she will heal, but the answer she gave when Kevin first asked her name is exactly what one would expect. I only wonder if her mind will heal more quickly. I mean, obviously if she was human she'd have gone completely insane, so there is hope for that kind of psychological recovery.
Well, she’s far more resilient than a human would be, and she’s definitely doing amazingly well considering what she’s been through, but there will be issues, which will become rather obvious in Part Three.
I should note that she’s healing far more slowly than she used to. I tried to base as much of The Woman in the Statue as possible on what we saw in Whore of Heaven, and one of the things I noticed was that Luzurial’s healing, along things like her durability and strength, are affected by her mental and emotional state. There’s a baseline, of course (she doesn’t just stop healing at any point), but given her trauma, what would in the past have healed in less than a minute instead takes hours. Obviously, as she gets better, that will accelerate.
QuoteAnd to have this preternatural FBI division thing going off in the background is genius.
That also owes its genesis to Whore of Heaven, where it’s mentioned that humanity went forth with new knowledge of and defenses against, but also new dealings with, the forces of Hell, so I figured some criminals might attempt to make deals with demons, and a branch of law enforcement would arise to deal with that.
QuoteTell you what, though - I wouldn't want to be one of those people who walked past her every day, when she was suffering, and all along she'd only ended up there because she tried to save the people of the city. That's some guilt trip.
There’s actually a deleted scene (as in I literally wrote it and then deleted it because I didn’t think it was necessary) in Part Eight where Luzurial is part of a briefing and a National Guard soldier pulls a “And where were you for the last seventy five years?” at which point Chloe tells him exactly where Luzurial was for the last 75 years. Cue guilt trip.
Chloe: Listen, Major Dumbass…
Major: It’s “Dumas.”
Chloe: Not right now it isn’t.
QuoteThank you so much for sharing your work with us.
Well thank you so much for the review! I basically wrote this to help me feel better after reading Whore of Heaven all those years ago (JayDee can tell you all about it, but I tend to call this story “my little therapy project”), and I had no idea how it would go over here, so thank you for the support!
- pippychick and JayDee
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Thundercloud
Chapter 6 does really deliver with a good mix of action, nasty taunts and nonconsensual sex. One taunt that I was expecting, but found missing, was the demon promisihing to use her own offspring to make her pregnant again. Maybe you are saving that for a future chapter.
Uh...yes! Yes, that was the plan all along! It was totally me saving it for a future chapter, and not a good idea I’m going to steal now and put into a future chapter! Just kidding; I’ll definitely give you credit for that.
QuoteThe ending was very nice and give a very good reason why you can take the story in a direction where you focus on building character relations.
Obviously, Kevin and Luzurial are the story’s Official Couple, and I wanted that to feel like the relationship had actually developed over time. Part Six here is one place where that definitely comes to the fore. They’ll be spending a few days at the motel in the next chapter, and as one might expect, things will progress further.
QuoteSpeaking about monsters I think I actually was more impressed by the sin creature in this chapter. The spider had a real creepy description, but the way the heroes deal with it was a bit MacGywer style if you get what I mean. The way the hero defeat the sin creature in this chapter is very classical, but it is also a quite clever way to use the defining feature of the sin creature against itself. I found this encounter more rewarding.
Thanks! Abdul and Calista definitely did some MacGyvering to defeat the Charnel Spider, and I was worried that Kevin just baiting the Wrath creature into killing itself would be kind of an anticlimax, but as you said, it does take into account that since the creature is all mindless rage, it should be fairly easy to trick.
QuoteA final thought...them taking the elevator when hunted by the demon. Either the elevator design has improved in incredible ways or they are very brave. As I write this I get the mental image of the demon snapping the wire of the elevator in triumph and future style safety system of the elevator taking them down safely as computer inform them that the wire has malfunctioned but they do not need to worry since designer promise the elevator is safe in all conditions.
I hadn’t thought of that specifically, but there was definitely supposed to be some comedy to the elevator bit, what with everyone but Luzurial pushing the Down button and the doors just refusing to close. And yeah, it would have been really funny if Eparlegna had managed to get into the shaft and cut the cable...only to discover that things have changed a little in the last three quarters of a century.
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4 hours ago, pippychick said:
Ahh… that was you! Thank you.
I still need to make time for responding to reviews that have come in while I’ve been somewhat distracted. I will, though!
Don’t feel bad about not responding to that first review. I still haven’t gotten around to reading and reviewing Chapter 2, and it’s been a month!
Oh, and I realize you guys were discussing this earlier, but if I may offer my two cents here…
QuoteThere is an element of this story that gets right to the heart of the problem I have with religion. Well, barring all the horrid, meaningless death and fanaticism, obviously.
First, on behalf of religious people, I’m sorry for any unpleasant experiences you’ve had. I know this doesn’t make up for it, but know that we’re not all dicks.
QuoteThis Creator must have known her eventual fate, from the moment she was brought into existence. Clearly, her fate was her purpose. Just as a God (assuming it exists), in perfection, must know every consequence of creation. Imagine knowing all the awful, horrific, real shit that goes on, every day, everywhere... and going ahead anyway.
7 hours ago, JayDee said:I don’t know that the creator here actually intended for Luzurial to go through what she did. The command not to do it was there, and she disobeyed. She got to exercise free will (just as most humans exercise it to be right bastards to other humans.) Doing so made things worse for her, and for the people. Perhaps the creator here only knows what is likely?
So, on Luzurial’s suffering being her reason for existing, I don’t know that that’s clear. Cars eventually break down, and the manufacturer knows this will inevitably happen, but that’s not why the car is made. Luzurial is mentioned as being valued for her wisdom and having distinguished herself in battle, so she has touched the lives of her fellow angels and protected the universe (or at least the Earth) before, and I don’t see any reason that couldn’t be her purpose. Her rape and torture are things that happen to her, but it doesn’t seem right (to me, anyway) to imagine she exists specifically to be raped and tortured.
With regards to divine omniscience, what pippychick describes is a valid criticism of the deterministic interpretation (the future is set in stone), but there is another way to look at it. A vital part of Christian dogma, and I think it also applies to Judaism and Islam, is that humans (and any other forms of sapient life that may exist) have free will, the ability to choose. God is believed to value free will so intensely that He allows it even though many make the choice to do terrible things, so I’ve never been comfortable with determinism, which removes free will from the equation.
Another interpretation, however, is that omniscience means that God knows every possible outcome, all of the billions of billions of possible futures made by all the interacting choices of billions of sapient individuals. However, while all the possible results of all our possible choices may be seen, at the critical inflection point, our choices matter. In other words, it’s not “these horrible things will happen,” but rather “these horrible things may happen, but the choice is yours.”
Bringing this back to Whore of Heaven, God would know all the outcomes of everyone’s possible choices, including the chain of events based on the choices made (Luzurial’s choice to intervene, her choice to help the survivors, her choice to try to talk to Eparlegna, her choice to try to spare the caged women, his choice to torture her, Shondra and Molly’s choice to serve him, etc.). All of these things are known ahead of time, but they are not fate; until the choices are made, they are only possible outcomes.
Or, to put it way more simply, the future is foreseen, but it is not foregone.
I hope I haven’t annoyed or offended either of you. I’ve told JayDee about this elsewhere, but I don’t have anything against atheists. In fact, randomly enough, most of my friends in high school were atheists, and now it’s a fairly even mix. I don’t think you’re getting in trouble for not believing in God. Honestly, I think that what really matters is that you live your life trying to do what you genuinely believe to be right.
Again, no offense was intended, pippychick, and I hope I haven’t irritated you. I’m not trying to convert anyone; I just wanted to discuss another potential way of looking at the omniscience idea.
- JayDee and pippychick
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12 minutes ago, Thundercloud said:
The chapter 3 review could IMHO also use a spoiler tag if you have the energy for it since it reveals the story is about demons.
Got it. It’ll be fixed by tonight.
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1 hour ago, JayDee said:
I doubt I could persuade InBrightestDay to read The Price either tbh
You obviously haven’t checked the reviews page for The Price recently. I haven’t read the second chapter yet, but I will get around to it at some point.
and @pippychick, you do not need to read The Woman in the Statue if you don’t want to. As wonderful as it would be to find out you enjoy it, if you really love how incredibly mean-spirited that original ending is, I don’t want to ruin something you enjoyed (in fact, I actually warned JayDee that by making my story canon, he might piss off people who loved the original ending). Feel free to pretend WitS doesn’t exist.
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InvidiaRed
It is accurate. There is that stark contrast. You
feel dirty, despoiled. How could anyone ever touch you again. Ad nauseum. It takes a long while, but it eventually sinks in
You aren't responsible for the cruel actions of others. That they want you to feel worthless.
I don’t know if I said this last time, and I know it’s been years and all, but for whatever this is worth, I am so sorry for what you went through. No one deserves that.
I am glad that I managed to be somewhat accurate with Luzurial’s reaction, though, and that is exactly what Eparlegna wants: for her to feel worthless. It’s one of the reasons I wrote the car scene the way I did. It’s actually a reflection of, or an answer to, the dialogue just before the final rape in Whore of Heaven; I even mirrored some of the wordplay deliberately. In that scene, Eparlegna tells her that she is a whore and he is her master, and that a whore is all she has ever been and all she will ever be. Here, well, Kevin gets to tell her what she needs to hear, and what he knows is true: that she is not a whore; that she is something beautiful and amazing, and that nothing Eparlegna does to her can ever take that away.
QuoteAnywho, You did wrath superbly.
Thanks! I’m not entirely sure where the idea for the Wrath construct came from. I just suddenly had the idea for an eyeless, skinned polar bear-type thing. Of course, I also threw in a Megatherium-style body for the giant claws and the tail.
QuoteAlso, loved the necromorph referance even if the series died with a whisper.
It seemed appropriate. The Charnel Spider is wearing human body parts rather than being made of them, but it certainly has the look of a Necromorph.
As for the series, I personally enjoyed Dead Space 3, though definitely more as an action game than as a horror one. I definitely understand why a lot of people didn’t like it, though.
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JayDee
So I’ll tell you, and any other person reading this damn review, this thing: Right towards the end this part made me cry, right around when Luzurial is thinking Kevin can’t stand her anymore, and then finds out that his opinion hasn’t changed at all... and then “please touch me”.
I actually teared up writing “Please touch me.” I did some research on what rape survivors go through, and something that came up is that often they don’t want to be touched, but that’s not a universal reaction. I thought it would be pretty emotional if Kevin had read the same thing and was trying to keep a respectful distance, all while what Luzurial really wants is a hug.
QuoteI laughed again at Kevin’s derailed train of thought and physical reaction when Eparlegna goes into the much less human form. It’s a fair reaction it just struck me as amusing for him to go from angry and threatening to ‘oh crap’. You describe him really well, better than any of my descriptions, and he seems truly monstrous.
The eyes were my personal favorite part. In Whore of Heaven you describe the demon’s eyes somehow radiating both red light and darkness. It took me a while, but I finally managed to visualize that. I figured it was kind of like old footage of nuclear bomb tests. In order to actually see the fireball, the aperture on the camera clamps way down when the explosion happens and darkens everything, so instead of the whole screen going white, we see an orange to red fireball that appears to suck the light out of the entire area. That became my model for how Eparlegna’s eyes worked.
QuoteAnother thing I didn’t quite think of first time, but the way he falls over and lands on his ass is like taking the ancient comedic pratfall trope and using it in a way that would be funny if he wasn’t so scared. It feels like a good way of playing with the trope.
I mean, have you ever tried walking up stairs backwards? It’s not easy, especially when you’re distracted by fear.
QuoteKevin didn’t really take Luzurial’s request before going in not to listen to heart did he? Well, he’s only human and curiosity is powerful…
Yeah, he knows he shouldn’t, but in the end he just can’t not ask.
QuoteThe offer paragraph is evil, but hot. (other reviews “It’s just evil. JD’s sick.”) Anyway, Kevin’s denial and standing up to the fearsome Eparlegna even after he’s virtually had the shit scared right on out of him is pretty cool
Kevin’s temper is kind of his advantage here. Eparlegna is terrifying, but as he keeps saying stuff that degrades and insults Luzurial, Kevin’s affection for her prompts anger and it starts to burn through the fear.
Quoteand he’s got that good burn in.
There’s just this running thing about Eparlegna and Lucifer. Their styles just kind of clash…
QuoteThe wrath monster’s another great body horror creation. It’s not quite as spinechilling as the spider, (which would be very hard to top) but anger is often more mindless lashing out violence which it really seems to exhibit, while the spider had the more grasping nature. Kevin going on to basically outsmart it into destroying itself seems to work as a pretty good “overcoming rage” device (the whole wrath fight is pretty good, but sorry, I think the spider one edges it.
Oh, I knew even when I was writing it that I was not topping the Charnel Spider for sheer creep factor. Nonetheless, I’m kind of fond of the Wrath creature. The fact that it basically kills itself is kind of based on the idea of anger very often being self-destructive.
QuoteAnother of your little Luzurial the badass moments,
“Luzurial smiled. Broken she may have been, but she was not helpless yet.”
That line is simultaneously cool and sad to me. On the one hand, I just like the way it reads, and she just melted aluminum with her bare hands, which is just objectively badass. On the other hand, it shows that even when she’s enjoying having accomplished something, she still sees herself as broken, as a lesser person after what Eparlegna did to her in the last story.
QuoteI guess I only had Luzurial the badass as an informed ability in Whore of Heaven (with the exception of the odd moment) where you really demonstrate it here and last chapter.
Necessitated by the genre I suppose. The target audience for Whore of Heaven did not come here to see a badass female action hero...you know...being badass.
QuoteThe wires working under Kevin’s skin sound pretty painful, and then the threat of skinning him - I had a ship do something similar to someone in my story Flaying Solo, leading to a reviewer asking ‘Did you feel even a tiny bit gross when writing this??’
I’m curious, did you? During Flaying Solo, I mean. I recall you said during Whore of Heaven it was a fairly detached process.
QuoteThere’s some nasty little details in there that make it feel very “Whore of Hell” sequel as you point out in your author’s note, with the sounds and the unpleasantness of Eparlegna using the burning sword to torture Luzurial’s stumps. It’s got to be physically and emotionally painful for both Luzurial and Kevin (and later on Kevin being careful not to touch her stumps was a really nice touch)
Kevin avoiding touching Luzurial’s wing stumps actually pops up a few times in the story. I never explained his thought process on that, but I figure that he doesn’t know if touching them will cause her physical pain, and figures it will likely remind her of her past trauma, so he tries to avoid doing it.
Quoteand then, yeah, a crowning moment of awesome and funny when Kevin shoots Eparlegna in the testicle, and follows it up with just unloading the rest. Punctuated with bullets for emphasis as TVtropes would tell us
That’s actually the Punctuated Pounding trope (minds out of the gutter, people), albeit with bullets instead of fisticuffs. I actually went back and forth about whether to keep that line or not, but in the end, I realized that it didn’t matter whether or not Kevin should say it, because the fact of the matter is that he would say it.
As for Eparlegna’s mean-spirited “imagine her going back to Heaven looking like this,” bit, that’s a direct callback to your story, where, while anally raping Luzurial, he asks her to imagine standing before God and telling Him what she “let” Eparlegna do to her. It’s just another little bit of his sadism, shaming her for something that’s not her fault.
QuoteWhen Eparlegna bursts out in his whole badass draconic form it’s great imagery. He’s not just on the screen in the lecture theatre, but he’s right there and he’s on the move. Things look bad for people, even with a little respite.
Fun fact, before I actually sent you the first draft, in my very first concept for the chapter, he was actually going to chase the group out of the building and they’d have to escape by driving into a tunnel. It would even have had a funny little moment with Chloe Liu talking to other PPD agents (“You lost it? How did you lose an eighteen meter dragon!?”), but I also realized that it would have started the endgame too early, and wouldn’t have allowed the breather that Part Seven provides.
QuoteSo, yeah, the ending. The ending is great. It’s got some real emotion and it’s pretty heartbreaking to see Luzurial thinking that he doesn’t want to touch her, but then it’s so sweet when she looks in his mind and it’s so human – there’s the lust but even more powerful the totally non-objectified enjoyment he takes in her company, the good things he feels about her, with the three comparisons, Again it just feels like brilliant writing. And, then, yeah, she looks again and sees he genuinely doesn’t feel less of her and the tears come again. It’s a very emotional section.
And, well, she knows exactly and truly how he feels for her and then “Please touch me,” Wow.
The car scene was originally planned to be from Kevin’s point of view, and then I realized how much better it would work from Luzurial’s, specifically if I implemented the mind reading ability as a way for her to see the truth. It’s definitely a big step in their developing relationship, since he’s now seen her at her lowest point and, unlike what past experience has taught her to (wrongly) expect, it doesn’t change his opinion of her at all. It’s where the terminology changes a bit too, and Kevin picks up the designation of “her special mortal.”
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29 minutes ago, Thundercloud said:
No problem. If you want the fix the issue you can copy the text, remove the review and then repost with the spoiler tag in the right place.
Will do. Do you want me to do this with all four reviews or just the one for Chapter 4?
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14 hours ago, Tcr said:
Taking care of yourself is a lot more important than reviews. As much as reviews are nice, it's better knowing that you're doing good.
I don’t mean to make this sound worse than it was. Trust me, if you actually found out why I was depressed, you’d probably think it was hilarious.
QuoteOriginally it was only going to be one who found her (one of the Marines), but I could think of a good reason for them to find her or who would... So I wrote the Stellar Navy guy in and had hoped the implication was that Adara saw him and had to investigate.
I figured he called someone, and eventually word got to Adara. It makes sense, don’t get me wrong, but I still thought it was funny.
Finding Inspiration
in Writers' Corner
Posted
That’s what it comes down to for me, actually. That, and daydreaming.
No, seriously, when I’m at work and I’m bored (my job is not terribly intellectually stimulating), I’ll often end up playing out scenes from my stories in my head, including scenes I haven’t written yet. I don’t always remember the exact details of these daydreams, which is a shame because sometimes I really like the dialogue I come up with, but they do often give me a general outline to work with.