Joe Long

I was working under a slightly different definition. I use 'pornography' to describe works, written or film, that were primarily explicitly sexual, have the barest of plots, who's only existence is to arouse the reader/viewer. I then use 'erotica' to describe regular works of literature in which portions describe explicit sex which is meant to arouse and titillate the readers, but is also meant to further the overall story line. When writing fiction, we should only include the scenes and action that are necessary to the plot, which in my case the sex scenes are. It's then only a question of how explicitly the scenes are written. I've compromised on some of my word choices, in dialogue using what the characters realistically would have said, while the narrator tends towards more polite words, but not always - depending on the context. Even the level of explicitness - be it kissing, fondling, oral, intercourse - is necessary to the plot to develop the characters and their relationship. 'We went to the car and had sex' won't cut it. The details are important, all those motivations and reactions. These details may be important if and when I try to get published on a place such as Amazon which his content rules. I'd have no problem labeling my story as 'Erotica' as it does include graphic descriptions of sex, but I fear they'd balk at underage sex - an nineteen year old guy and a thirteen year old girl. However, that's central to the story. The protagonist is looking for love and finds it in the wrong place. There wouldn't be much of a story without those complicating factors.

I hope this isn't too far off the topic, but a technical issue with navigation. If I were to choose the one item I'd like to fix that to the bext of my knowledge would take the least effort, it would be to have a working hyperlink (one that could be clicked once) from an author's forum profile to their stories written page on the main site. Currently on the author's forum profile, the url of their main site profile is spelled out, and has to be highlighted and right clicked to be opened in a new window. Once there, 'Stories Written' can be clicked to see a list. Most times I am here in a forum or in the SB, and would like to be able to quickly and efficiently go to an author's stories.. Thanks

the red text said STOP RIGHT HERE which attracted my eyes and caused me to read it out of context! I presented my sample to you because I was looking for an opinion. This is my first project, I'm learning, you had left a favorable review on ym story, and you seemed to know what you're doing! Now question. You say of your story, "these novels are not erotica" which made me wonder, "just what is erotica?" Different online encyclopedias had differing definitions which I believe are substantive. 1 literature or art dealing with sexual love. 2 explicitly sexual literature or art 3 Literature or art intended to arouse sexual desire. 4 creative activity (writing or pictures or films etc.) of no literary or artistic value other than to stimulate sexual desire Romance novels could be covered by the first definition, while the fourth, to me, is a description of porn aka 'stroke stories.' The first two chapters of your story describes sex fairly explicitly, but they are shown as acts of violence and not intended to arouse desire (among the vast majority of people.) My story is explicit, is intended to arouse but certainly has literary and artistic value (IMHO) as it first a romance.

Yeah, the thread moving, that was like the parents finding you making out on the couch and suggesting you move it to the bedroom. It should still work, but kind of kills the mood. I have some reading to do, I'm only through two chapters! My comment on Unlikely Antichrist was that after I had read the blurb and then started in on the story, I realized that the first two chapters didn't seem to have anything to do with the story description. However, I had an 'uh-huh' moment when I realized what I had read was the backstory, the long slow buildup to the action that comes later.

The Sour Green Apple Smoothie

Yes, there could be such a chain reaction. Notes taken while reading: Hey, don't rag on the Tea Party! No guessing - reckoning! I hate using "guess" when people many times mean "reckon." To many it seems archaic, but it simply means examining the evidence and coming to a conclusion. And it sounds better. Is Ms. Locke up late, on her back? Holden finds fault in everybody, but for messing up their own lives, not his, so I wouldn't call him a whiner. "You should be doing better, but instead you're just a phony following the script." Absolutely is an intellectual philosopher. He's a very astute observer, commenting on the state of American society. Tara and the walrus, again!

but that could be intended...Craig thinks it's so important, but it's just annoying to everyone else

I thought you said Suessical was your sophomore year, or did you go to some fancy school where they did more than one each year? (kidding!)

Not saying it's all girls, but enough to make many of the other student's lives miserable. I'm sure Jessica and her minions would fall into this description. Also, it seems like general and social media these days is pushing the message that the best thing in life is to every day find something to be offended by, and demand that others be just as offended too. That fosters an attitude that seeks out any perceived slight, and of assuming the other person's intentions.

I grew up in the 70's and things seemed pretty normal, especially compared to what I saw my two kids go through. Back in my day the kids drank, smoked weed and screwed around (not me! I am the Joe in my story) Everything was pretty civil. There were some people I didn't care for, but we just avoided each other. We had our 2nd annual all-years reunion this past weekend. Saw a good number of people, and talked to several that I wasn't even friends with, or were a year or two ahead of me and weren't in my circles. Oh, and there were five sisters from one family who attended. I met the two oldest, who both married guys I knew growing up. Both really hot for being nearly 50. I enjoyed how the one liked to touch whenever she talked.

Girls? motives? They don't need no stinkin' motives! Jessica has plenty of motives, real and imagined, and she has minions. That's sufficient. I'm being flippant. You make many good points, but you're also being very rational, and aggrieved teen girls are rarely rational. Belle isn't a direct target because she didn't do anything herself, but she's a member of a group headed by the targets, so that makes her fair game.

Just because acceptance has grown doesn't mean it wouldn't hurt Belle more than if he left her for a girl. It's an individual thing. I have a daughter who managed to make it out of high school ten years ago. Teen girls are mercilessly mean, and will make up any lie they can to hurt their target as personally as possible. Even if the tormentor doesn't care about gays, if they think it can hurt their target then it's a weapon.

I've gotten some push back as my story deals with a 19 year old guy and a 13 year old girl, who is also his cousin, but as you say, it's escapism. This whole story of mine, which may end up 100k words by the time I'm done, started as a stroke story with it's seeds more than thirty years ago as I fantasized about how to seduce my cousin. There are plot points inspired by real events, but by now most of it is fiction. One of my beta readers had suggested a subplot where a man in his late forties is ogling his step-daughter of a month or two. I just finished writing the first draft of the entire thread, which will pop up occasionally throughout the story. I don't want to spoil it, but I'll say it has an interesting ending, both sad and satisfying.

sometimes I find it quicker to Google the author's pen name!

Joe, don't forget I also PM'ed you a handful of typos

Interesting, I was not explicitly aware of that and will keep that in mind. My purpose in the rewrite of that scene was to let the readers form an opinion of the type of girl Julie was from her age, appearance, posture, and manners. Joe's out cruising for action with his cousin, but the girls he meets aren't quite the type he normally spends his time with. It's based on an actual event, but thirty five years later I barely remember more than the two of us had met a girl on the CB and stopped in an alley to meet her when her sister yelled out almost those exact words to scare us off. The rest was filled in from my present day mind to tell the larger story. English is our first language and we group up sometimes wondering why we have to take so many years of it in school. Taking time to write fiction, I have realized there are many different ways to say the same thing in a sentence, but only a few are brief in words and to the point. So that's one of my guidelines - be concise while still being descriptive. (And trying not to repeat words - I just took out 'my principles' in favor of 'my guidelines' because principles was used in the following sentence.) Still, many of these principles are implied by reading what others have written and thus seen the rules in use even if the reader is not specifically aware of the rule yet. I find that generally I was getting things correct, even if I didn't know why. It certainly helps to have a 'rule' explained. And I confess that as soon as I saw your post the red letters drew my eyes and frightened me - I feared that I may have offended you until I read again from the very beginning. This week I read both your stories posted here. I enjoyed both. I admired the quality of the prose, even if I noticed a larger number of 'literary' (fancy!) words. It was powerful at setting scenes. Even though I might have wondered about the premise of 'Concession' and whether it was correct to pine for one when married to another for so many years, I found myself in tears by the end. With 'Unlikely Antichrist', I found myself drawn into the story of Jessica and her mother, even if I had to go back to check the story description to see if it matched what I was reading. Then I recalled what you had said about a slow buildup to your stories, and longed for the next chapter to see how the story would get from where it was to where it was going.

I don't mind preaching, that's part of how I learn. Use the first person past tense POV, yes, the reader is seeing the story through only one person's eyes, and is not omniscient. The narrator might not know another person's thoughts until they're spoken, but the writer can us the narrative to describe the scene in such as way as to give clues. The body language, facial expression, how the words are spoken (soft, loud, public, private, etc) to show a lot of the emotion of the other character. When I started writing my story last year I did it much as if I was sitting across the table from the readers, telling my story, and I write it as I remembered it. Reading back later I saw how it lacked detail and failed to foreshadow well enough. Joe and his dad will have a big fight later on, but other than two paragraphs in the first chapter, dad was rarely seen and had no voice. I went back to write dad into scenes, showing that he loved his son even while being hard on him and frequently being sarcastic. Then, when a big event happens later on what happens is in character and a logical progression. I'll use an example to show how I changed how described a character. This is Tweety Bird.” She had a little deeper voice, perhaps she was a smoker... We were there in a flash. The three of us stood out in the dark alley, introducing ourselves and giving each other visual inspections. She did ask if we had any cigarettes, but neither of us smoked. Her name was Julie, and she was actually fairly nice, about five-six, slender, nice boobs and a pleasant smile. The meet was going rather well when the night air was pierced with a loud cry. “HEY! Get the hell out of here! Ain’t none a’yunz going to be fucking my little sister! Git, right now, before I call the cops on yunz.” Instead of telling the reader, I switched to describing what the MC was seeing at the time, using many more visuals In her little bit of a deeper voice she replied, "This is Tweety Bird." We were there in a flash, and spotted the girl, maybe five-six, waiting under a street lamp. She was fairly nice, slender, perky boobs and a pleasant smile. When we got out she said, "Hi, I'm Julie - got any smokes?" I looked at Dave then shook my head. "Sorry, no. I'm Joe. My handle's Spock - and this is my cousin Dave." With long unkempt hair tossed over her shoulders, and wearing a Led Zeppelin t-shirt and a pair of jean shorts, she was leaning against a wall, one of her knees bent with that foot on the wall behind her. She was eying us up as well when she asked, "Yeah, I remember you - so how old are yunz guys?" I said, "Nineteen, and he's seventeen. You're fourteen, right?" Just then the night air was pierced with a loud cry, "HEY! Get the hell out of here! Ain't none a'yunz going to be fucking my little sister! Git, right now, before I call the cops on yunz."

yeah, that bulge looks quite humanoid

Owens for Lit? Perhaps I did misremember, but then maybe so did Joe.

I agree that a Joe & Sam relationship could case maximum fracturing among the whole cast of characters, while we led astray with the red herring of Craig. I'm also waiting for the next chapter to go back to English class so we can talk about The Catcher In The Rye I know Mr. Martin said read the first ten pages, but seriously, who can stop at ten? You get caught up and just keep going. I finished the book in three days. I realize he wanted his students to stop there so they could discuss their first impressions of Holden Caulfield, the main character and narrator, before being exposed to much of the plot line. Once a reader has gotten further into the book, or read the whole thing, their impressions would have changed from when they had minimal information to go on. The teacher would want to see who excelled at picking up meaning from the sparsest of clues. Also, when Mr. Martin said about, "If you only use the SparkNotes you'll get a C" and thinking outside the box - I have a totally different take on the ending of the book. I didn't read any commentaries or analysis until after I had finished, and I was surprised that no one I could find by Google had even considered my interpretation. SparkNotes got half way there. seeing some of the clues, but didn't make the leap. CliffNotes, eNotes...all the rest had the same generic explanations. So - I want to convince you guys! (when we get there)

That was my technique. Instead of spending two paragraphs near the front having the narrator tell the reader what an s.o.b. his Dad was, I added two scenes of about 2500 words, first at dinner where the cousin could observe how Dad acts, then a reaction scene where the MC could tell his cousin about some of the issues in his life, including Dad. And yes! That helps create plot bunnies. Drop lots of crumbs of back story and subplots and see where they go. There's one subplot that I've decided I'll never resolve (and I won't tell you which one.) Every once in a while little hints and clues may be dropped in, other places stated more explicitly, but it will be left for the readers to ponder. It's fun that way.

Hi Ariana, I was playing around with 'New Content' and decided to check the hit counter thread, as I'm kind of a technical guy. Don't worry that the topic has strayed, as I'm also quite interested in the new subject as well, and I've gotten to know most of the people who've replied. Also, after reading a few posts on this thread, I realized you were the person who left the flattering review of my story - so thank you, I really did appreciate that someone likes it. My hits appear to be decent (at least they've read a paragraph or two) but I lacked reviews and comments on the forum page I created. I started my story about a year ago on the blue site, back when it allowed under 18 (even if post-pubescent). I'd written a handful of stroke stories over the years and gotten a fair amount of hits at a site which seems to specialize in those. I migrated my reading to the blue site because it, at that time, allowed portrayals of teenage sex. Last summer I was caught up in reading two long form serials that focused on teen romance, with enough sex thrown in. I was inspired to pull out a story idea that originally had two scenes (seduction and sex) and expand it to a full length novel. It was my first try at serious writing and was OK in quality. It got a decent amount of hits and even topped the ratings lists once or twice, but soon I was caught up in the troll wars and the age nazis. I bailed and went over to storiesonline where I re-posted. One thing I do like about their ratings system is registered users get to vote a story from 1 to 10. 7 was my most common, then 8, 9 and 10, followed by 6 on down to 1. Meanwhile the two authors who had inspired me ended up here, so I checked it out. Since last fall I'd also been reading some blogs about fiction writing and as I tried to finish my latest chapter became disillusioned. Without changing the story line (which I have outlined from start to finish), I went back to the beginning and focused on "showing, not telling." Vast amounts of words were re-written, and many scenes added to create back stories and subplots and foreshadowing. That's what I've posted here, "The Re-telling", and so far three redone chapters of about 25k words total are at this site. I have two beta readers who haven't done a lot in the editing area, but who have been able to give good comments on the story line and have suggested a few items which in my opinion have strengthened the story. In conclusion, yes I like to see the hits and ratings, if they're honest, to give me a sense of the quality of my work. It's a story I want to tell, but I want to be able to do it well. I'm still learning, and feedback greatly helps that. Also, even though this is my only piece of serious fiction, I do also write non-fiction under my real name, and have found that my overall writing skills, along with my ability to form and organize my thoughts, has greatly increased over the year that I've been working on the fiction.

We don't need no education We don't need no thought control All in all you're just another brick in the wall.

Or they're sharing a bed I finished Catcher in the Rye what a strange little book. I don't get all the controversy. There's a 16 year old kid who swears and drinks and smokes, but doesn't have sex, and he sees some people who I thinks may be gay, as he describes the world around him.

I've added a subplot, and unfortunately had to add/change a couple lines in the already published chapter two, but it's really good. If you've already read it, I'd encourage you to go back, about halfway though 2, where Hannah is sleeping on the floor and Joe has breakfast the next day - just a few paragraphs