YNP_Refugee

simplified genetics course 1/2 material from each parent. 1/4 material from each grandparent. 1/8 material from each great grandparent.... grandparents being cousins are actually on the next level and would only raise to giving this. but if it were siblings the total for the child would be 2/8 = 1/4 of their genetic material.... exponential as you say. more was going on than they, the doctors wanted to admit. 9 out of 10 birth defects are environmentally cuased. 1 in 1200 births have a defect. that gives 1 in 12000 births have a genetic defect. I simplified it for math purposes last time I discussed this but I did it in a way that made it worse and gave a higher Birth defect rate. I have a great uncle who has Cerebral Palsy. That puts him in the 9 out of 10 group whose problems were caused by something going wrong at birth. In his case his umbilical cord wrapped around his throat cutting off his air supply for a moment to long at birth. I looked all this up because of him. If you get sibling who have genetic birth defects you have a case where the gene will be found in at least 2 if not all 4 grand parents. And, you have a case of very unlucky parents. Since from brother and sister it is a case of 1 birth in 4 will have a birth defect if both are carrying the recessive gene and a dominant one. The combination chart is dd, dr, rd, rr, and only rr gives a birth defect, d = dominant, r = recessive. And it is just about even money that one parent sib will be carrying two dominant genes meaning no birth defects at all in their children. I am saying this not to the person I quoted above but to anyone who falls into this condition. If you are having sex with your sibling who has a genetic birth defect you are a fool. I feel sorry for the children that you are bringing into the world irresponsibly. One of the hobbies I have had over my lifetime is hamster breeding. I know a little about genetics. Again the doctors where looking for a way to simplify the world and explain the unexplainable to a grieving family so they lied. Doctors do this it is called good bed side manors. If I understand what you said correctly the great grandparents where cousins. that would make the parents fourth cousins. Third cousins are known as kissing cousins because it is the level at which marriage has always been considered safe. My question is how did they not know? I know my cousins, second and third cousins. If I started to date a second cousin my mother and hers, who would be first cousins at least by marriage, would be all over me to shut it down. Did they never attend a family event before marriage? Did they never talk about where their grandparents, lived? I talk with the women I date about family. My family has a lot of funny stories associated with it but that usually gets her to talk about her family. If I started to hear a lot of similar towns, family names I would start to ask to speak with her family historian... I have found there is normally one or two in each family. A person who tracks the family history. I mean towns that would set me off would be Batesvill, Alison, or Mountain View, Arkansas. I was born in California. That does not mean I do not know where I came from. There is a list of names associated with these places as well. FYI your assertion that we all carry bad genes is not provable. It has often been said but there is no proof of it. There is more proof that most of us do not since the birth defects ratio is not 1 in 2 or 1 in 10 or even 1 in 100. Just looking at the final statistics of 1 in 10000 to 1 in 12000 births have genetically caused birth defects should tell you that it is not a true assertion.

Sex in general is a sticky, wet, smelly, and yes after it is over disgusting act... Have you ever smelt yourown or your lover arm pits during sex? lol.... these same things during the act push you on and on. They can lead to marathon sex acts. I find anyone who does not understand life is not clean and pure to be juvenile at best. My advice to them in general is to grow up and pay attention while doing so. When you can back your opinion with some kind of example try again. I would love to see someone who can tell me how sex gets more disgusting than it already is. There is a reason most people head straight to a shower when they are done with it. Yet I would rather have a woman with me and be going at it rather than typing this. lol

I really have no vested interest in the twins... But they do have their own relationship as it is. It is just that it is with each other. I find it funny that relationships that got you beat almost and sometimes all the way to death in the 1980s are now more or less accepted in society. Yet people used to said the same things about them, that being gay was immoral, against god, against nature, just wrong, etc. Now I see people saying the same things on this forum about yet another kind of relationship and swearing society will never change or it will never be accepted. I honestly hope I live to see my 100th birthday just to see how long the changes I have seen in my life time last and how many more are to come. As for the argument that they look to much alike. lol that does make me laugh. I have a fountain of old folk sayings left by my grandmother who was born in the Ozarks. Before anyone says anything she was till the day she died, one of the most dead set against incest, people you could meet. One of the sayings I can not quite call to mind at the moment is about husbands and wives beginning to look like one another. Another was that men seek a woman just like dear old mom. That is most people look for mates that look like they themselves do. It is one reason a lot of people when you say German almost automatically think of blond hair braided in a bun around a woman's head or a short haired blond man. I helped raise my nieces and nephew. When I took my sister shopping a lot of people mistook us for a married couple. And before anyone gets the wrong idea I never considered my sister as anything other than someone I wanted to avoid. I have said on this forum she is a tea total bitch. I have standards. I tend to choose who I want to be with by whether or not I like them as people. The reason I said anything here is my sister and I did look a lot alike at that time but seeing my interaction with the kids people assumed I was their father rather than their uncle, leading them to believe she and I were married. This led to a lot of funny looks when I asked other women out or just for their phone numbers in front of my sister.

Figured it about you. My comment was about the guys that are now complaining about stuff that was there from chapter 1 and they just did not notice till now.

Well, I am just enjoying a story that does admit "Life Happens" I have no vested intrest in the twins. I do like how Jashely treats his characters with respect and that he admits life happens. I think who ever is trying to force him to go another way (other than the one he chooses) needs to learn that. I keep wandering how many people really read chapters 1 to 5.

Sorry to hear you are having troubles with... well I would not say a fan in this case. Kind of shows that they have no idea how the world works that they would think something you have to make rules against does not happen. Then rant on about it. Incest is as natural as sex. I will not speak to its morality but most religions would say it is immoral to have sex out side of marriage as well. It is done outside marriages every day. People tend to think the thing they want is ok, but the rules against the things they think are wrong are absolute and correct. I have already stated I had a bought with incest at the age of 8. It lasted a couple of weeks then was more or less forgotten for almost 4 years till the old saying "loose lips sink ships" came into play and everyone in our class and our family found out it had happened. Yes, my aunt and I went to the same school through the 8th grade, two years after everyone found out. There were plenty of lips, we had used my sister and a younger cousin as look outs for our parents. There was all kinds of hell to pay after that. No I am not going into detail more now than last time beyond what I just said. Over the next couple of years it was again mostly forgotten. By the time I entered high school I was looking for the 2.5 and white picket fence. So know it would never have occurred to me to cheat on a girl friend either. That having been said I have spent my life looking at the things I have done or that have happened to me and trying to figure them out. Our society is not like most people think classified as a monogamous society (that classification is reserved for societies where most people have one mate in a life time. Read mate to mean a person one has sex with, it has nothing to do with marriage.) but as one of serial polygamy. Our divorce rates are above 60% and most people see 3 or even 4 marriages in their life times. They tend to have even more mates, ie people they have had sex with. I never got the 2.5 or the white picket fence. I still try to figure out what went wrong. I am in contact with more than half the girls, women, I have known since the 2nd grade, on facebook at least. I have been told I could have had any of them at one point or another, sometimes clean up to the day they married. They all say they would like to see me married and raising kids of my own, knowing this is my dream. Truth is you can forget the 2.5... I wanted as many as I could get away with. 2.5 is just the average that happens in our society. I love kids, having raised three that are not my own, I think I have a good idea about the process.

I would disagree with the idea that it is probably over. Jashely stated he knew such a couple. My guess is he is patterning this relationship on that couple. This is supposed to be a saga or story arc that will carry 5 to 6 chapters. This was only the second.

I do not know about the next chapter but soon. If they do not stand up in one way or another whether it is a direct face down or a long term plan between them they have lost.

I would agree with you. But my best revenge would have come when Joe asked why the separate rides. Imagine instead of making an excuse that will not prove useful tomorrow, just calling dad and telling him "this is on speaker because Joe, who is standing here, wants to know why the separate rides all of a sudden. We can talk about being 'subtle' when we are all home tonight." Depending on how dad responds you might be able to recover it without telling him the truth or resorting to black male, "I know your secret, you need to keep theirs." Either way dad would be rethinking what he is doing. And begin looking into being subtle. He might even realize that phone calls in hall ways with 50 other students playing pass the phone unwillingly is anything but subtle. It is bound to attract attention and start rumors. Especially in a high school where students can be vicious and look for ways to hurt other students. Dad himself is doing more to make sure they get caught or end up having to explain things the kids have kept hidden for almost 3 years. It was only in dads face because for a little while, when they thought he might be cool with it. They know their school mates would not be. Oh, and I do not believe for a second he just happened to walk into their room while they were doing that. He set out to trap them and knew when he made the deal he would. By the way, do you know what federal authorities call it when you place a video camera in a room where a teen age girl or boy changes clothes and may sleep in the nude? They call that production of child pornography. It is about a 15 year sentence at the top end. If you did it to catch them having sex and succeed, it is a top end charge. Dad is running a con with this threat and would be told so by anyone who 'installs' cameras. Reputable installers would in fact refuse and report (they are required to by most states. To even attempt it is considered 'ongoing child abuse'). Please do not bring up nanny cams we are talking 14yos+ here, not 5yos who are being left in the care of strangers. On last thing Jack and the twins are actually triplets... If jack is smart enough to pass a year ahead from the begining of the story then his siblings, I would assume, did not because they were otherwise occupied during the last two years. If they decide to apply themselves, most states have early graduation programs that will let the student do so. That would place them in college early. If they timed it right they could do so just as they turned 18 and having devoted that much time to one another, even if not having sex they would be even closer. It would limit their free time and be something they share, that on the surface dad would approve of. IE they would not be dating each other but not anyone else either. After all they are aiming at being able to move in together at 18 in a shared appt. in a state where they could just tell everyone that they are married is the reason for the last name being the same. If they are telling everyone they are married then that is a built in excuse not to date and to turn offers down. The main problem I would see with this would be the college admin but if they choose a city with two colleges and they each attend a different one then they would not have to fudge the administrations paperwork. San Fran., LA (west coast), Cambridge, and I think NY city on the east would all fit the bill. Each city has multiple colleges and/or universities with top level reputations. If all four kids wanted to share expenses then the top Vet school in Ca at least is Davis in SF. I only know that because a friend of mine was on the waiting list to get in for like 5 years. I think that Kayla's Veterinary degree would be the hardest thing to accommodate.

Good chapter. I think one thing you did well was show that people see what they WANT to see. Dad sees a brother and sister that look too much alike. Jack sees a brother that looks just like dad and a sister that looks just like mom. I still say dad is responding to societal conditioning then explaining it away the best he can logically. I can not wait to see what mess you are going to get Jack to get Craig into to make Becca take him out. lol

Happy BDay JC

I really have to say about the above post #735, I do NOT think that this is the direction that Joe is going. That is why I did not publish that stuff in the first place.

I can come up with one or two that are more personal. He went after his first crush and was turned down, only to find her a few days later on the side of a river having sex with her brother (most likely from story reactions), uncle, or father. His first real girlfriend broke up with him and....(read above for the rest)

to continue Johnie's list: it is against the law (brother and sister in all states) and if found out and tried as adults they would be registered sex offenders for the rest of their lives.

So start using an account not a guest account. Log in and put me on ignore. You nor anyone else has to see what I am saying. Jashely has said he will not ask me to stop. I have told him and I meant it if he asks I will do anything up to and including leave the forum. As I see it he or the moderators are the only ones with the right to ask it of me. EDIT As for using multiple accounts, I will not. It is a bannable offence to do so according to the forum rules

I did not mean to indicate it was a bad theory as it stood. As for parents trying to help a child avoid pain, good ones all try but no parent is ever entirely successful. I just was saying I think he is trying to figure some tough real world bs out in his head. At least that is what he indicated in his last update. I have read all kinds of materials on this subject. Some people immediately go for the higher rate of birth defects being why they oppose incest (this argument at least bore some legitimacy 200 years ago). The highest estimate is that it doubles the rate. Sounds threatening enough till you find out birth defect rate due to genetic cause is about 1 in 10000 so doubling the rate means 1 child in 5000 will be born with one. Add to that we can now check for a lot of them in the parents prior to pregnancy and counsel against allowing pregnancy if something like sickle cell or hemophilia is found and that goes out the window. This "Genetic Counseling" is already a standard procedure for some people if they know they may be carrying recessive traits that allow "genetic" disease to pass, say a parent or grandparent had one. Since how closely related the parents are can in no way effect the environmental causes of birth defects, such as being given to much anesthetic during delivery, you can not lump all birth defects into the argument. This is the reason I did not use the over all statistic of 1 in 1200 births have a birth defect. Most of these can be traced to "environmental" causes. The list of these causes is very long but includes maternal drug use, bad diet or malnutrition, etc. So though not one that is officially listed I would add men that sleep around with no intent of taking care of the woman they are sleeping with.

I doubt he is going to go this direction. From what he said above he is trying to work out why people respond to this issue the way they do. Here is my advice to him. Do not over simplify it. Peoples responses are rarely simple especially with any issue to do with sex.

he's half way done as of yesterday

Yes, it did escalate quickly. Thank you Joe, Johnny. Since most of what I can think of to type is aimed in the wrong quarter I am waiting to see some new story related posts to respond to

I am responding to this before I have even read all of it. This is in no way your fault. There were basically two of us involved. I am ashamed to say I am one. The other guy had less than 10 posts. I will state to everyone "sorry for raising to the trolls bait." EDIT: It won't happen again with this guy. I put him on ignore rather than respond to his rage. I can not say that it will never happen again. Even face to face I will discuss and debate almost anything with almost anyone. To everyone but Mr Ashely, if I offend you to the point you want to rage over me then I invite you to do what I did. It is not hard to go into settings and add a name to your ignore list. Joe, if you ask I shall leave.

My solution was simple.he posted at 12:40 my time, by 1:30 my time he was on ignore. I might raise to the bait once or even twice but after they prove themselves a troll I do not bother with them.

nice. well thought out

Sorry to have upset you. I have been here long enough and supported Joe by telling people in other words that 'he will be done when he is done just wait for it,' often enough that you know I respect and would never dishonor him. If you look at how I answered you and that I asked to get back to focusing on the story before you posted this you will know that.

I will accept that 'all' is not correct but most text books on Psychology would say most fathers and responsible male relatives do. The problem is most people tend to make decisions then rewrite what they were thinking to fit the decision. It is often said we decide with our emotions then explain with our logic. When my first niece told me she wanted her boyfriend to move in with us she had been molested only 4 years before. I had helped her through that by giving her a shoulder to cry on and someone to talk to no mater what it was she had to say. So, I can tell you that the knot in the pit of my stomach had a lot more emotions than jealousy but I have to admit at the same time that it was one of them. Fear, and others were there as well. I do not believe we are ever as simple as we try to make ourselves out to be. And most people do not look closely at how they feel till after they are trying to explain the choice they made. Having been where I have been I try to assess my emotions before I let them effect my decision. The operative word in that last sentence is 'try'. Let's get back to wild guesses about where Joe is going to take Jack and Kayla.

also said: I guaran-goddamn-tee that modern society doesn't function that way, so why bother referencing it, y'know? Now, if you'll all excuse me, I'm gonna go be thankful for evolution. Because thanks to it, I've never inadvertently fucked a member of my family. Which is pretty important. I did not brag. I have put in the study time on human behavior. I explained how and why. That is not bragging. At least I take the time to try to say what I mean. To be 'thankful for evolution,' without adding the word "Social" implies a change in the species. Nothing in our written history shows much of a change in our species especially where it comes to behavior. If you are going to Guarantee me anything you should be able to back it up. Since the Romans and their orgies that I have mentioned there have been times where we actually made any social morals of today look laughable in terms of strictness. This country (the USA or at least the American colonies) was founded by Puritans, who made even the most upstanding and repressed person today look like, in my grandmothers terms "Loosy Goosies." What I can guarantee is that societies change and in 3 to 5 generations you and I would not recognize this one. Oh and that change in society is cyclic. So I imagine two others will be repeating some form of this in the future. Since Justaquestion made no bible references I have seen, that has been mostly me. You can see why I responded as if you were aiming your comments at me. While we are talking about holier than thou, self-righteous, attitudes look at yours as expressed above and ask why I may have responded with my history. If you think admitting my past was easy then know this, I have not done it often in the last 40 or so years even with the anonymity given by the internet.