VotedforKodos

I mean...I guess part of why I feel like the extra drama from past relationships is useful is because Cu Chulainn is just a cool guy. Like, on his own, given freedom to choose, yeah, he'd want to get into a bunch of awesome fights in the Grail War, but he'd also recognize when things are bad and say "Okay, now I have to try and stop that," and wind up helping the protagonists. Granted that being stuck with Kirei restricts what he'll be allowed to do, but that just piles more problems, in that he'd probably spend most of the War lounging around the Church. The other issue is just pure ability. Remember, Cu Chulainn is a guy who, against Berserker Hercules, fighting at full strength, has "some chance of victory," and who held GIlgamesh back for half a day in Fate, even though Gilgamesh has Enkidu, which gives him a huge advantage against a demigod like Cu. Using Cu Chulainn in a story is a delicate thing.

Probably Cu surviving could add more, especially if Heroic Spirits he's acquainted with, like Medb or Scathach, show up. Non-lethal win conditions...well, probably surrender. Anything else, not sure, and how the Grail stores power, no idea.

I mean, that's a valid concern. But thinking about it, I would place this as that wake-up call event. Celenike is actually a sadist who enjoys torturing young boys. It kind of gets glossed over in Apocrypha since her victims are Astolfo, who is so much more powerful than her that he yawns in the middle of it, and a random unnamed homunculus, but still. By comparison, Saeko has a taste for violence and sadism, but she's more or less a decent person that lives by society's rules and restrains herself. "To Celenike...patience and self-control were the same things as torture." I would have this be the situation that shows the downside of Charisma. Where for everyone else, it made them more affectionate or more attentive to Shirou, for her, it would take her view from "What a cute boy, maybe I should pay him a visit after I get the Grail" to "Forget the Grail, I want that boy chained up in my dungeon now." Instead of making him a target of love and admiration, it makes him a target of her obsession and violence. And that would be what I would say is the break-off point between her and Medb. Until then, they'd gotten along well enough, and she understands wanting a piece of Shirou after seeing him fight Hercules, and he might have been a little reluctant but he'd gotten into it well enough. But when it comes down to Celenike actually just wanting to torture him for her own enjoyment, no, she won't endorse that and betrays Celenike. Which leads into other conflict for Shirou's side, since this enemy Servant is now fading away without a Master but Shirou is insisting that they do something to help her since she saved him and also because it's Shirou. Plus the baggage of her history with Cu Chulainn and that she loves treasure and would still want the Grail for herself.

Well...maybe a little bit that, just because I do find it a disappointment how they sort of made that the focus of her character. Considering how much of her profile is dedicated to her being fixated on Cu Chulainn versus how much is actually about her... But she also has Room lines that, summed up, basically say that for all the men she had, she never really felt love and doesn't really understand what love is. There's also some lines somewhere that say that what Medb really wants is someone that makes her fall in love with a look the way she makes men fall in love with her. So basically, Shirou in this story with his high Charisma is pretty well suited to not just seduce Medb, but to make her embrace him as her husbando.

Ichasennin may have a different meaning, but my interpretation was basically the same as what EMIYA claimed he thought Medea had done during UBW, i.e., stolen her Master's free will and was operating on her own for her own ends, using them just as a source of mana and an anchor to the world. And that was my view for Medb. Starts out thinking "Sure, I could rape the fuck out of that kid, he's cute enough" to "Ohemgee, he's so adorable. I'm keeping him!"

Actually, I'm going to change a suggestion that I made earlier in the thread. For Kiara's Master, Ichasennin said not to suggest anyone we had an attachment to because they're going to get mind-broken, and I suggested Astolfo's Master from Apocrypha because as far as I know, no one really cares about her. But now that the question of Masters and what is known about their character comes up, I realize it would be better to use one of those "name only" characters for her Master, since, you know, mind-breaking. So instead, I offer up May Riddel Archelot as a suggestion. She is an idol, and idols are a subject of mass lust and desire, so she'd be suitable to summon Kiara, and I would say knowledge of Mahoutsukai no Yoru is uncommon enough to make her a reasonable choice for mind-breaking. In fact, I'm amending it to this suggestion: Summoner: Medb - Master: Celenike Icecolle Yggdmillenia It can start with them both being lascivious and just wanting to capture and rape Shirou, developing into Medb recognizing Shirou as the kind of man she likes and also her "equal," who can make her honestly feel love. Plus this works with Sola losing Assassin or Kirei stealing Lancer from Bazett, in that Celenike can be killed for being unrepentantly evil but still leave a Servant around for those two not having one.

That was always my concern. I mean, the Masters from the Red faction in Apocrypha are basically just Servant summoning plot devices, except Amakusa and Sisigou. But on the other hand, having no canonical characterization never stopped the Harry Potter fandom...

I don't think Jack would really care one way or the other about her outfit. Although since the Grail War starts in winter, Shirou would probably give her his coat the first time he saw her. Yorimitsu's clones basically just seem to be a stylistic sort of thing. Servants actually summoning clones of themselves...the only one that does it is Hundred-Faced Hassan, and that's literally their whole thing. The other example that's come up was when the Edelfeldts summoned a Saber as two Sabers in the Third War, and that split the Servant's power. The elemental Irisviels were, in story, broken shards of the Grail that was destroyed that grew and developed wills of their own. I certainly have no objection to Kuro showing up, but it's all up to Ichasennin and if it works within the story he's got. And because I think it's a good idea to have it all clear and I enjoy making lists and charts and things... Confirmed Servant/Master Pairs 1. Saber: Arturia - Master: Shirou 2. Caster: Morgan le Fay - Master: Kayneth 3. Berserker: Mordred - Master: Rin 4. Archer: Heracles - Master: Illya 5. Lancer: Cu Chulainn Master: Bazett/Kirei 6. Rider: Medusa - Master: Sakura/Shinji 7. Archer: Fem!Gil - Master: None 8. Avenger: Dark Iri - Master: Grail 9. ????: ???? - Master: ???? 10. ????: ???? - Master: ???? 11. ????: ???? - Master: ???? 12. ????: ???? - Master: ???? 13. ????: ???? - Master: ???? 14. ????: ???? - Master: ???? 15. ????: ???? - Master: ???? 16. ????: ???? - Master: ???? 17. ????: ???? - Master: ???? Confirmed Servant/Unknown Master Temptress: Kiara Sessyoin - Master: ????(Someone who will get mind-broken. Current suggestions: May Riddel Archelot) Unknown Servant/Confirmed Master Assassin: Expendable/Some Hassan - Master: Sola/Zouken Proposed Servant/Master Pairs Ruler: Jeanne - Master: Caren Ortensia Destroyer: Altera - Master: Sajyou Manaka Phantom: Jack the Ripper - Rikudou Reika ????: Sita - Master: Miyu (Not Edelfeldt if she hasn't gotten picked up by Luvia) Summoner: Medb - Master: Celenike Icecolle Yggdmillenia Proposed Servants/Unknown Master Hunter: Atalanta - Master: ???? Crafter: da Vinci - Master: ???? Shielder: Brynhildr - Master: ???? Idol: Stheno/Euryale - Master: ???? Tamer: Martha - Master: ???? ????: Scathach - Master: ???? ????: Medea Lily - Master: ???? ????: Helena Blavatsky - Master: ???? ????: Okita Souji - Master: ???? Proposed Servants that could also be used as Random Encounters Tamamo Kiyohime Shuten Douji Ibaraki Douji Minamoto no Yorimitsu Unknown Servants/Proposed Masters ????: ???? - Master: Luvia ????: ???? - Master: Fiore Forvedge Yggdmillenia ????: ???? - Master: Kuro/Chloe von Einzbern ????: ???? - Master: Bazett (after getting Lancer stolen) ????: ???? - Master: Olga Marie Animusphere ????: ???? - Master: Flat Escardos ????: ???? - Master: Cornelius Alba ????: ???? - Master: Atram Galiast ????: ???? - Master: Rottweil Berzinsky ...I think I got just about everything that's been brought up. If I missed anything, let me know and I'll add it. EDIT: Edited list as of July 18, per suggestions from myself and Wandering_Moth

Shuten. Face-sitting. Footjob. All I can say about that doujin is that there aren't enough "MUH DICK!"s in the world. Manaka would live happily ever after. At least, that's what happens in her mind. I tend to think many yandere's don't make long-term plans or think very rationally, so she probably doesn't really think there's anything else to do or worry about once she has Shirou and there's nobody to take him away. Phantom...put it this way, where most Assassins have Presence Concealment, Phantom Jack would have an ability closer to Mata Hari's Secret Intel. Instead of hiding like Assassins or just not being able to recognize her as a threat like Mata Hari, it would be that people just don't pay attention to Jack, unless she is acting as "Jack the Ripper." Barring people who would have a reason to notice her as something special and the ability to do so, it takes her doing something to draw attention to herself for people to notice her and not just dismiss her. Saber, for instance, would probably recognize her as someone dangerous by her Instinct, a Master as talented as Rin would probably notice something off about her, and someone she specifically wanted to interact with (i.e. Shirou) would definitely notice and remember her. But if she, say, went into a store and bought something or asked someone for directions, she would leave no impression, and within a few minutes, they wouldn't be able to describe her beyond "a female child." Basically, her Information Erasure works on people all the time, in addition to its effects after a fight. Other than that, her skills would basically be the same, I would think. Although it does lead to people actively disregarding her presence, so, I would say yes, something like sucking his dick under his desk at school would be something that could happen. As far as her size and appearance, Rin is about 5'2-5'3, Jack is about 4'4-4'5, so Rin has about 9-11 inches on her (pardon my use of American measurements). Apparently, there was a case of Apocrypha Materials listing her height as 4'11, but that was retconned and declared an error. Also, considering that Rin is Japanese and Jack is (sort of) English, there's more of a consideration of difference. Rin is already slightly (1 cm) taller than the average Japanese woman. Jack, by comparison, is more than a foot shorter than the average height of women 16 or older in England today. And according to a site I found (admittedly just the first thing I saw by Googling), Jack's height is around the average height of an 8 or 9 year old in the UK today. Granted that humans as a whole have been growing taller as time goes on, she'd still probably be young, probably 10 to maybe 13 or 14 by 19th century London and given the malnourished street children she represents in canon. Yorimitsu...yeah, I thought about her, too. Shirou could use a mother in his life, I'm sure. And I'm equally sure it would get more interesting when Yorimitsu and Dark Irisviel are both after him. Yes, Miyu would be more or less the same age, maybe a little younger, just so Shirou has an Imouto-class heroine. Not by much, maybe a year or possibly fraternal twins. And yes, eventually I would say have Sita fall for Shirou.

You know, I was actually thinking, and several of the Masters and/or Servants I've wanted to suggest could be tied together to Shirou from the fire. Manaka could have seen it and been exposed to Angra Mainyu and corrupted during the fire, and become obsessed with Shirou once she found out he was the sole survivor. I wanted to suggest Phantom Jack with Reika Rikudou as her Master, in which case I would suggest Jack is not just formed from the abandoned children of London, but also winds up being formed from the children who were victims during the Fourth War, from those Gilles and Ryuunosuke killed to those who died as a result of the fire. She instinctively recognizes Shirou as the last surviving victim from the Fourth Grail War, and identifies him as her "big brother," to be taken care of and protected. Reika lost someone important to her during the fire, and as a combined result of him doing something to help her during regular life, the relationship Jack has with both of them, and generally being a bit crazy herself, Reika latches onto the idea of Shirou as a replacement to fill a gap in her "family." And the idea of Miyu with Sita popped into my head. Specifically, having Miyu as Shirou's sister who was entirely away from the fire, and who came looking for Shirou, only to find him after he'd already established a life as Emiya Shirou, so she can't bring herself to step into his life and say that they're family, and just stays away, watching him from afar. She summons Sita because they are both people who are separated from the person they love the most because of how much they love them.

...I caution you that I'm not one of those people who insists that what I like is definitely objectively good, or one of those people who refuses to like things just because they have some problems. That being said, Symphogear is...it's just super fun and kind of crazy and kind of dumb. They're magical girls who use fragments of ancient relics (Gungnir and Durandal are probably the two best known ones that show up) to transform and fight by singing. It's got cute yuri, some fanservice, crazy fights, one girl's entire attack arsenal is basically entirely a Gundam homage, and singing. The first season has Aoi Yuuki, Nana Mizuki, and Ayahi Takagaki. The second season adds Hikasa Youko, Ai Kayano, and Yoshino Nanjou. I won't say it's the best series ever made, but I just find it really fun and enjoyable. It should all be on Crunchyroll, 3 seasons. First is just Senki Zesshou Symphogear, second is Senki Zesshou Symphogear G, third is Senki Zesshou Symphogear GX.

Kind of kuudere, but without excessive dere. Her biggest dere moment that I can think of is requesting that you call her Altera instead of Atilla, because Altera is cuter. She's basically quiet most of the time, and emotionless during battle, along with having a compulsive urge to kill people and a sword that's apparently designed to destroy civilization. Her wish for the Grail is to live a life not being a warrior, not because she has regrets, but because she's curious what her life would be like outside of battle. With Manaka, who is crazy and wanted to use the Grail in Prototype to resurrect the Beast from the Book of Revelations to destroy the world, as her Master, it would basically turn into them being more antagonistic than most other parties in the War. If I were to dictate how I would envision is, Manaka would be yandere for Shirou, and basically have the scenario the Grail showed Kiritsugu at the end of Zero as her actual goal: kill everyone else in the world except her and Shirou, maybe keep some people around as slaves, keep Altera as a reward for loyal service, but just make sure she gets him. And Aoi Yuuki is probably best known for Madoka Kaname, but my personal favorite role from her is Hibiki Tachibana from Symphogear. Although I also loved her as Clementine in Overlord...

Combination of loli, lewd and also bloodlust-y personality, and I personally think a lot of it is that she's voiced by Aoi Yuuki. I mean, that's why I exhausted all of my resources trying to roll her in FGO, even though I knew there was basically no chance of it. EDIT: I also think there's been some bitterness and resentment about Scathach, since she remains a limited Servant only available when Delight Works decides to have her available, even though she already appeared in the story and there's only one 5-star Lancer available. Basically, she's one of the biggest examples of how summoning in FGO is completely fucked and the gachas are awful.

Something like, it starts out with Atalanta wanting to save Shirou from all these "loose women" taking advantage of him, then when she actually interacts with him, she winds up feeling sexual desire for the first time? She gets hold of him, brings him back to her base, talking about how she'll protect him from people taking advantage of him, Shirou sees she's sincere about that and winds up petting her ears and/or tail, sort of a thank you head pat, and, per usual hentai trope, the petting turns her on immensely. Then there's a brief vicious cycle of Shirou petting Atalanta, her getting horny and fucking him, her feeling guilty about it, and him petting her to make her feel better. Ichasennin, still waiting to hear about if you'd use the monster girl type girls as random encounters. As far as proposed additional Servants and classes, so far: Ruler: Jeanne d'Arc - Master: Caren Ortensia Destroyer: Altera - Master: Manaka Sajyou Crafter: Leonardo da Vinci - Master: ???? Hunter: Atalanta - Master: ???? ...plus plenty more that we can come up with.

Glad to see the update, and some good development of the actual game mechanics. Also glad to see you didn't skimp on Shirou being Shirou, i.e. him spending a bunch of time just helping random strangers with errands, taking the time to make sure to politely refuse all the love letters, and showing concern about if he is improperly influencing the people around him with his abilities. It would be too easy and unfair to him as a character to have him just right it off. As for Shuten's class, warellis, aside from the FGO canon class of Assassin, I would then say Temptress, if it weren't taken for this story. Beyond that, since she's an oni, Monster or Beast would work, and you could probably come up with more.

So with these, there's 8 set, and 7 more to fill. I'm still advocating Ruler Jeanne, and have an attachment to the Destroyer Altera/Manaka Servant/Master pair I suggested a while ago. Other than that, I kind of want Stheno and/or Euryale, Martha, Kiyohime, Tamamo, Medea Lily, Okita, Scathach, Jack, Medb, Helena Blavatsky, Sita, Shuten Douji, and ibaraki Douji. Plus Astolfo, if Ichasennin is willing. That's just the broader list. Medb could at work as something like Summoner. Jack could be used for the Phantom class I suggested, and Stheno and/or Euryale would work as an Idol. The others could be worked, largely depending on Ichasennin's answer to using some of them as random encounters.

That's what I would think. Referring to any FSN Servant by their class by habit is totally reasonable, since they were the first. It took a while before I stopped, and I still refer to Arturia as Saber and EMIYA as Archer usually. And Ichasennin, if you haven't figured out which classes to use, have you at least got an idea of how many you want to have?

Shinji, or just most magi in general. It could also just be something the Master and Servant agree on. "So, it looks like you don't really have great stats, and aren't suited for combat. If we get into a direct fight, we're probably dead. But I do have another idea that might work." "Sure, what is it?" "Think you can fuck a Master into submission?" "...You're gonna have to elaborate."

It actually could just be a strategy someone uses when they have a Servant they don't think can win a fight, especially if they're aware of Shirou's frequent sexual escapades and think he's just a stupid horny dog. Use a geiss scroll like Kiritsugu did, saying whoever wins the challenge becomes the other side's subordinates, assuming there's no way he could out-sex a Servant.

Eh, could be done in a more comedic light. Saber's getting beaten, Shirou is desperate, jumps the other Servant from behind, winds up groping her, she gets horny, and (in keeping somewhat with the theme of this thread) she throws him down to fuck him silly, only to wind up addicted to the shota dick.

Well, if Shirou does wind up strong enough to fight against Hercules, it could certainly be done without the question of "Why don't they just break his face" having to come up. The trick is that Shirou wouldn't be into rape, so it would either have to somehow be consensual in the middle of a fight, or he would have to get mind fucked into doing it. For it to be consensual would mean it would have to be some kind of a challenge, I guess? So a Servant that would challenge him to sex, that he'd take the challenge from. None of the confirmed Servants really seem likely to do that, except kiara or maybe Morgan. I guess it could also be a "Hahaha Saber (or whatever other ally of Shirou's is there), now look at what I'm going to do to your Master (or whatever)" situation, followed immediately by them being defeated by the dick. But the list that would do that is still comparatively small. EDIT: Although with a more morally flexible Shirou and that being the method he has to take for victory, all it really requires is a vulnerable enough Servant. A "weak" one like Mata Hari, Stheno/Euryale...well, you could probably justify most Casters or Assassins as being that weak, given their class stats, barring outliers like Shuten Douji. Certain ones that have extenuating circumstances that would make them weaker, like Okita's illness, if Frankenstein ran low on electricity, Sita if Rama were around... Almost any Servant, if they were cut off from their Master in some way. And really, you could probably get away with fudging things a fair bit as far as stats go for what could be done. I mean, a Servant is supposed to be stronger than a human could possibly be, and Gilles crushes a child's skull effortlessly with D-rank strength, but Shirou fights against Servants with strength from D up to B with varying success, without a bonus like EMIYA's arm. So stats are kind of bullshit.

But then the Assassin slot is already filled. And it's not like the Archer thing with Gil, where one is a leftover from the previous War.

From what I know, it seems like most of her abilities that are shown in Apocrypha are more Caster oriented, but considering that dual-class summoning is a thing, it doesn't matter and she could be summoned primarily as either and secondarily as the other. But there's some hesitation on my part to think about other Assassins, since Ichasennin already said Sola's is getting killed when Zouken takes over, and Zouken's Assassin will be...well, with Zouken. And that without a catalyst, Zouken will summon a Hassan. Although I guess it wouldn't stretch suspension of disbelief too much for Zouken to have a catalyst for Shuten, and for her to wind up deciding to do her own thing.

Yeah, that was mostly the point I was aiming for with the number of Masters. Hell, from Apocrypha alone we have 13, since Amakusa is actually a Servant. It really was just the question of how much they were actually characters and how much they were just names. Phantom and Idol were actually ones I considered the biggest stretches. Phantom was sort of supposed to be for a Servant whose real identity was just an "identity" instead of a "person," a Heroic Spirit who is basically just a name tied to some things that happened, with nothing else really known about them. I was mainly thinking of Jack the Ripper, as far as Servants go, but I would also say it could be used for Robin Hood or Sasaki. The murders of several prostitutes in London is tied to Jack the Ripper, but nobody knows who Jack the Ripper was. "Stealing from the rich and giving to the poor in Sherwood Forest" is the story of Robin Hood, but there's not a single solid individual who is definitely that Robin Hood. And as Sasaki says in UBW, "There was certainly a swordsman who used Monohoshizao. There was probably a man named Sasaki Kojirou. And there was someone who used Tsubame Gaeshi. Unfortunately, these men weren't the same person." A more modern example would be the person standing in front of the tanks at Tiananmen Square in that famous picture. Something along those lines. Idol wasn't even one that I tied to Elizabeth in my head. I was actually thinking of Stheno and Euryale. I envisioned Idol as a class that would have virtually no offensive abilities on its own, but could bewitch others to fight in their place and can also buff others a lot. Theoretically, they win a fight by virtue of not getting into it and having everyone else fight each other instead, and buff their Master enough to defend them when they do get attacked. But yeah, like I said, I do find both of them a bit of a stretch, which is why I asked Ichasennin about an upper limit, and want to know how fast and loose he's willing to play the whole thing.

As far as additional Servants and Masters, I think it mostly depends on what your upper limit is. I'm sure we could come up with classes, Servants to fill them, and Masters to no end, but if you put a cap on it, we more or less have a target. Re-posting your original list to avoid having to go digging for it... Saber: Arthuria Pendragon - Master: Emiya Shirou Caster: Morgan le Fay - Master: Kaynet El-Melloi Berserker: Mordred - Master: Tohasaka Rin Archer: Herakles - Master: Ilyasviel Von Einzbern Lancer: Chu Culainn - Master: Bazett Fraga McRemitz/Kotomine Kirei Assassin: ???? - Master: Sola-Ui Nuada-Re Sophia-Ri/Matou Zouken Avenger: Angra Mainyu!Irisviel - Master: Grail-kun Archer: Fem!Gilgamesh - Master: none Rider: Medusa - Master: Matou Sakura/Matou Shinji Temptress: Kiara Sesshoin - Master: ???? ...that's 10 Servants. 11 Servants if you include that Sola's Assassin is going to die and Zouken will summon a new Assassin. I don't know if you had decided to adopt any of the other Servant classes suggested so far in this thread, so that's all I've counted. But off the top of my head (and admittedly playing a little fast and loose with classes to see how many I could add), Ruler, Shielder, Gunner, Monster, Beast, Alter Ego, Destroyer, Summoner, Tamer, Crafter, Phantom, Striker, Hunter...that's another 13, for a total of 23 or 24 Servants. At that point, it's actually probably harder to come up with Masters for all of them, actually... EDIT: Forgot Savior. That makes 14. And something like Idol. 15.