ApolloImperium

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Hello everyone, I'm one more refugee from ffn. :wavey:

I was told about this site by a friend and I'm very thankful for it for I've only ever written stories rated MA, and I was caught a bit unprepared by ffn purge. My bad, I must confess when I first read their ToS (about two years ago now) I ignored or I just pretend I didn't understand the difference between M and MA ratings and, as everybody seemed to write fictions with very explicit contents, I thought that if the difference was there it had to be very subtle (and I was too lazy to check it out). I was wrong, of course, but I owe ffn and all those writers out there a lot because they helped me to improve my English when reading their works sounded much more alluring than studying on my textbook.

Anyway, this time I made sure to read properly AFF ToS and I'm more than ready to give my little humble perverted contribution to this community!

Edited by Wicked_Black_Cat

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I have posted everything I write on FF.net. I haven't gotten hit yet, but since the standard seems to be rather touch and go on what exactly gets axed, I have no idea how long they will last. I have seen things that can make a gay man blush, (and that isn't easy) but it's still up and going. But I've also seen things that I didn't think were all that dirty get deleted, so the standard seems pretty subjective.

Honestly though, I have slowed down posting here. I've read some posts between admin and different members here and it really turned me off a little.(Not on this particular thread) I also had a huge mix up with a couple of my stories, (totally my fault, btw, and I admit that freely) and while one of the admin was extremely helpful and did some kindly hand holding to help me figure it out, the other admin I dealt with was out and out rude. And the rude came AFTER I sent an email telling her/him that I didn't need help anymore and had found assistance with another very helpful admin. It was very off putting. After that incident I started scrolling through some of the interactions admin had here with other posters and gave a little shudder. I realize that the admin of any site is the owner and can behave any way they like, but we, the writers, are the reason people come to these sites. I guess I take the attitude that common courtesy, even when two people don't agree, is always the classy way to go. I've had very mixed interactions with admin here, which is so bizarre for me I'm still not sure what to make of it. That has never been a problem for me before. It is rare that I can't find common ground and get along with those around me. And I'm a gay man who lives in a Republican state so that's saying something.

Having said that...I have to say this. This site has a ridiculously easy posting set up. I mean, I cannot find enough good to say about it. I haven't found any that are as easy to use for a first timer on the site. It also makes editing equally easy. Managing stories is also a joy. The technical set up of this site is second to none I've seen. I really value the human interaction factor though, so I've to weigh in my mind if one makes the other worth dealing with. So far...not so much. I have a lot more to post, but when I consider I might need to reach out to an admin for help with something, I cringe at the thought, because I don't know if I'll be treated with basic courtesy or not.

I'm on Archive of Our Own now, and it's a beta site. I love the admin, and the rating system is excellent. But you need an invitation to become a writer, (which I did get) and because it's beta it can be a nightmare to navigate when stuff is down. And uploading stories there can be a hair pulling situation.

I think the problem with being a fan fiction fan or writer is that we're at the mercy of sites, admin, and unclear policy that can suddenly get enforced without warning. (FF.net, I'm looking at you on that one.) It's an imperfect situation, but it beats no fan fiction at all.

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I'll have to let Apollo or DG address the majority of your complaint, but this was how you initially approached us in the forum:

I got an alert to change a disclaimer on one of my stories. A Criminal Minds story called "The First Cut is the Deepest." So I changed it. I made sure it said I did not own Criminal minds or any characters created by them. I got on today, and the story was hidden, and I got the same song and dance. I went and MADE SURE I changed the disclaimer. And sure enough, I had. I am now reaching a level or searing annoyance that is making me consider pulling my stories and going anywhere else except this site. Can some explain what the hell is going on with that?!?!?!

You cussed and yelled. You got a polite, albeit brief, response from Danyealle-sama (an archive moderator).

Now, I don't know what else was said, I haven't seen any of the e-mails that may have been exchanged between you and DemonGoddess061 (head moderator and admin) or Apollo (owner). That's why I'm going to have to let them respond to you fully.

However, just considering that post, with your initial reaction being to berate us for attempting to protect not only the site but also you as an author against any possible legal action, and the above post (though calmer and more thought out is still very much an attack on the site), I am curious as to what you felt was rude. If it was merely being blunt, it's easier to state things simply than to mince words. While it may seem abrupt some times, it is far easier to communicate one's meaning by using direct statements.

(edit for spelling errors)

Edited by RogueMudblood

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I will admit that both DG and myself are extremely blunt in handling things, though I tend to be the more temperate of personalities. I do remember the interaction as well as your response to it. Was it blunt? Yes. It was, and she did also mention that she read it first thing and was trying not respond with at the same level the complaint was sent in. Not saying it is an excuse, but Rogue did copy and paste pretty much what you had sent, though the one we received was much harsher in tone. Could she have waited to send a response until she'd taken more than a moment to calm down from the tone of the 'request'? Of course but hindsight is always 20/20.

We are constantly having to defend ourselves against unfounded accusations of bias, removal, etc. We have multiple layers of staff to ensure that our policies are enforced fairly. I do random spot checks, as does DG to ensure that it is unbiased. Everything is documented in a secure portion of our forum, including screenshots as well as in a secure database on our server. Any actions we take can be backed up. However, because we administrate the site, we are constantly questioned and berated. Now, I'm not saying that we are always 100% right, but when we are wrong we don't have an issue admitting it. It has happened.

I'll give you an example: A long time author of the site was fairly friendly with the staff my former head admin Jaxxy had in place and made a decent connection with DG as well. The previous staff didn't moderate well, there were documented incidents of favoritism. I hate to admit that it happened in my absence, but it did, I can't change that. Due to a combination of the lack of proper moderation and favoritism, my staff has had the unfortunate burden of correcting those issues. This author felt that due to her seniority on the site and her online friendship with DG that she should continue to receive a free pass when she messed up. We had to issue numerous warnings through out the tenure of the new staff and her responses became more vitriolic to the point that if there was an issue with the story they wouldn't even handle it.

When we instituted our RTE for uploading stories, she threw a hissy fit. Now, did this cause issues with some old uploads? Yes, we knew that and we were working hard on a fix, but we had a choice - Improve our posting abilities and work to fix the glitches it caused or stay in the stone age. We decided the best way to go was to move forward and work to fix the old stories. Authors had a choice to correct it on their own or wait for us to manually resolve the issue. Unfortunately, as this author was not the most tech savvy, instead of asking for assistance, she would continuously bash us for the same ease of posting system that you enjoy, both in her stories, on her personal site as well as in our Shoutbox.

Time progressed as it does and after one too many warnings, I made a decision after consulting with DG that we would institute a 2 week ban. We do not have a hard and fast rule for removing anything other than stolen stories, minors or ToS violations not corrected in a 5 week time period and this was our first incident of having to take action against someone who was an adult and even old enough to be my mother. We reviewed the history, we reviewed the conversations, and after a lengthy deliberation we decided that since our normal process had not affected a change in behavior, we would put in the temporary ban. A polite email was drafted, explaining why and detailing the infractions that lead to this point, however we were then bashed across her page and encouraged her fans to come after us.

The ban was lifted at the end of the period and she was allowed to continue posting with the understanding that the next infraction would be her last. She managed to follow the rules for almost a year before she decided that she was leaving and decided that it no longer mattered if she broke the rules. The funny thing was, we weren't even the ones to catch her - one of our users did and reported it to us before we had found it in our sweeps. As she had already been warned about the consequences, we confirmed the issue and removed her immediately. This brought down more lies, more vitriol with out even a way to defend ourselves. Her readers berated us, harassed us, etc.

While this is certainly the extreme of what we deal with, it's also an excellent example. A large majority of our users do follow the rules, for which we are immensely thankful, but there are always that entitled few that cause issues. Thankfully, it's lessened, though we deal with in in waves.

You had the misfortune, for which I do apologize, of coming in at a time period where my staff was extremely overloaded with the incoming authors from FF.Net. We were all over worked, and DG the most as she is the main source of technical support for the site. When approached in the manner in which we were, it is very easy to take it personal and point out what she did.

I've said it many a time, and I'm sure many have heard it from various influences, you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. A simple, "I thought I had corrected my disclaimer after the warning, but I awoke to find the story hidden today. Is there something I still need to correct?" would have garnered a completely different response. The other side of things as well is that in a text based environment, things can easily be taken out of context as you do not have facial expressions or tone to help convey the meaning behind them. You may not have meant to come across as you did initially, she may not have meant to come across that way, etc etc. We tend to overlay our current emotion to text and make assumptions that with body language and inflection we may not normally make.

We truly are friendly people, always willing to help, but we also appreciate it when we are treated with basic human courtesy and people are willing to help themselves with the numerous self help tools we have provided. When reading staff interaction with other users, please make sure you are looking at it from both sides. It's always easy to side with the person not in authority because you can share a camaraderie of little people standing up for themselves, but not as easy to take a step back and view it from the opposite side. We aren't trained/paid customer service reps (well, I am in real life, but that is beside the point) - We are living, breathing, emotional people too that do this for free out of the passion we feel for the site.

And yes, this is extremely rambling, but hopefully it conveys what I mean it to convey. Welcome to the site!

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It happened already to me, had a story (http://cartoon.adult-fanfiction.org/story.php?no=600093736) taken down. Granted, a bdsm story involving a cartoon show's characters (Phineas and Ferb), one of which is a ten-year-old-girl might have been too much over there, but I put a warning in the preface. Plus I have a stalker over there causing problems for me. (Of course this is the same kid that evaded the Mature Content tag on my deviantArt account).

Some of the stories I have read there, obviously written by kids, are far worse than mine. Oh well. I have three other stories over there; just waiting for them to come down.

Luckily every story I have posted over there I have posted over here, and two have also been posted to FetLife.

It is what it is; these are the times we live in.

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Well, I see this is a pretty old thread, but I think FFNET is doin' it again - either that or (hopefully) what I had happen was an isolated incident. I had been lurking on FFNET (no login) for almost a year, collecting URL's of lemony fanfics (because I love them, because I am a dirty, dirty perv). Finally last month I wrote a smut fanfic of my own, and decided since apparently half the world is doing it as well, I'd go ahead and post it. It's doing fine and hasn't been touched by mods yet, but a second one I put up was almost immediately added to a 'community' which lists stories that break the ToS and are going to be reported. I immediately yanked it and am planning to post it here as soon as I get a better feel for the site.

I've browsed AFFNET a bit and read a few stories, and I plan to read (and review of course) many more. Any other smut that I write, I will probably post directly on here. It just makes me sad that (1) there are so many good lemons on FFNET that will be lost, whose authors may not bother to find another place to put them, (2) opportunities for feedback, networking, etc. are lost to me and other smut-creators simply because of the giant stigma on sex-related stuff, which is not FFNET's fault any more than it is mine, but which obviously is not going to go away, and (3) I really do like the format for the FFNET site better than this one (sorry) - I think I will enjoy having a more open and safe place to post my fics, though.

I am taking the passive-aggressive route with my other story on FFNET right now as I see so many other stories posted which have the same level of smuttiness and haven't been taken down. It bugs me the idea that only the conscientious people should have to follow the written rules, so I am following the unwritten ones instead: a very clear warning of what the story is, and rely on viewer discretion. I am going to wait and see if anyone complains in any form, and remove it at that point if ever.

I do want to know one thing: if I post the same story here as on FFNET will I potentially get in trouble for 'plagiarizing' myself? (If I post, I would also mention the story is available on another site, within an A/N in the story and in my profile, on both sites, so as to avoid confusion). It would appear from the posts in this thread that the answer is 'no problem!' as a lot of people seem to have their stories on both sites. Given the differences between the written / unwritten rules as mentioned above, however, I thought I'd throw that out there.

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What you're referring to is what most people consider "cross posting". For us, that term means that you post multiple copies of the same story to multiple archives on THIS site. What it means to most people though, is that it's posted at their site and elsewhere. We're glad to have ya, and if you want to post elsewhere as well, that's entirely up to you. We certainly won't tell you must post a story here, and only here. :)

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Okay, good to know. I have a friend who writes semi-professionally, and I know he has various online mags, etc. which won't accept his work if it's already been published elsewhere, even on his own website. I really had no idea how similar a site like this would be.

Thanks again!

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When you're publishing for money, you enter into a contract with your publisher that often gives them exclusive rights to the work in question for a period of time. It's not uncommon to see authors taking down things that might infringe on a contract.

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Hey, I'm the new one! *grins and waves*

And I have a question right for the start!

(...)

  • We are an adults only site. This means you must be 18 to use it. Yes, we do verify your age, so please, if you've signed up and are underage, let us know now to avoid getting in trouble. I do this not to be mean or nasty, but because I really don't like the thought of jail time. I look horrid in orange, I swear! Please respect this policy :)

(...)

There's a 'lil "story".

I got stress because of one of my fics of FF and decided to move to AFF. A friend of me noticed that and asked me what happened and so on and I explained everything to her. In the end she decided for the sake of her fics to move to AFF soon, too, but she's not 18 yet (but yes, she writes yaoi).

As I see it now, there's no way for her to publish her fics other than livejournal/tumblr or something like that? It's MA, so not allowed on FF and she's <18, so she's not allowed on AFF ...? =/

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No she is not allowed here, and as you are aware she is here, we do need you to provide us her name so that we can remove her account. Please PM the information to any of the staff members if you do not feel comfortable posting it in the forum.

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Oh, she isn't here. ^^ As far as I know at least, dunno what she did last night after I got off, but don't think so since she said she'll do it anytime soon, but not yet.

*sighes* So we have to find another way for her ...

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Your friend is welcome here on or after her 18th birthday. As the site is hosted in the US, we have to go by age restrictions in THIS country, not other countries, regardless of where the user is.

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To be honest, I have to say that FFNet has devolved into the internet's largest porn shop of all. AFFnet is not as raunchy if you count the flat out masses of homo/lesbian/heterosexual/bestiality stories housed in the FFnet's archives. Very few stories on FFnet lack for groping, pawing, and sloppy sex material that I have read. Now on to a couple of post responses.

I strongly disagree that it isn't in part a parenting issue. Fanfiction.net is not a kiddie site and it never has been. It's a general fanfiction site, and if it were only meant for children then they would not allow a huge chunk of the fandoms they host in the first place. It's not unreasonable to suggest that a site which seems not to want mature content to simply REMOVE the "M" rating and thus eliminate any confusion over such things. Hosting Mature rated content but expecting people not to upload mature content is two-faced, at best. They're best off just dropping the rating system down to teen and lower, if they need to devise a different standard for what "M" ratings actually mean.

It's not an adult website either. If it were, then membership would be 18+, not 13+. The issue is that it's against the law to allow minors to join a site that allows adult content. This is an old law, not something new. Adult content has never been allowed on sites that allow minors to join. It's illegal and since ff.net allows membership down to 13 years of age, then no, they can't legally host adult content on that site. And it's been in their ToS for ten years that MA content is not allowed. It's plainly there that explicit sexual content, violence, or language isn't allowed. I agree with you that they shouldn't have hosted it if it was a problem. I personally feel it was pretty irresponsible of the mods not to enforce their own ToS or explain it better to people. But just because they never enforced their ToS doesn't mean people are right or not responsible for complying with it. I get that a lot of people are mad, but it was their choice to ignore the ToS in the first place. Just because you don't agree with a site's ToS doesn't mean you don't have to comply with their rules. Or just because everyone else is doing it doesn't mean you should too. FF.net isn't doing anything illegal by pulling content down they feel doesn't belong on their site. They have a right to do that without warning or reason. Doesn't mean they should, but it's their right to do so, especially since it's a ToS violation.

All of these thoughts contain very good points. It is a legal issue, however, the problem remains that FFNet has put up homoerotic and lesbian cannon stories categories for people to write about without paying attention to the actual known content of the shows they added to their acceptable categories listings. Bellyaching, threatening retaliation lazy parents also need to monitor their teenagers in case they are ignoring the laws and putting up sexual content stories.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/carolpinchefsky/2013/05/22/fan-fiction-is-finally-legitimized-with-kindle-worlds/%C2'>Taken from the previous linked article. Some writers starting out in their careers will see this as an opportunity. After all, when you publish in someone else’s universe, a lot of the “heavy lifting” of writing (establishing the characters and the world itself) has been done for you. Also, fans of these shows have already written the stories and posted them to fanfiction.net (where you can find 4,000 Pretty Little Liars stories, 10,000 Gossip Girl stories, and 25,000 Vampire Diaries stories), so publishing on Kindle Worlds is no extra work but 35% of royalties in their pockets. Others see this as cause for concern. Unlike the “real” world of fanfiction, where imaginations are completely unfettered, Kindle Worlds has limits, such as no cross-overs…and no pornography. And yes, quite a few fan fiction stories are pornographic.

Having this article written about the Amazon site's eBooks decision to produce fan fiction for sale led to some very telling statements aboutthe many pornographic tales littering the FFnet archives which because of the lack in Adult Only status is against the law. Such articles led to a huge uproar legally so the Mods are now doing the job they were always supposed to do for their paychecks. They probably do not wish to pay fines, or see their employer go to prison, so they are doing their jobs until all the hoopla caused by Amazon's new eBooks division for publishing and paying for fan fiction dies down considerably.

Because it is listed as a site that allows membership for children, Shonen Ai and Yaoi based animes like Gravitation, KiriPapa, Gakuen Heaven, and Mirage of Blaze should not be listed anywhere on FFnet. In this argument you are correct that FFnet is at fault for putting up such adult themed categories without giving express and maintained guidelines for the content that can be placed upon their site. FFNet was wrong to list animes and television shows which showcase sex, violence and the rest of the Mature rated themes. Having put up such categories as acceptable does imply that FFnet moderators and administration are either very careless, or contemptuous of their own rating system.

Something both posters have ignored is the biggest problem with FFnet's policies. There is an overwhelming number of teenagers or UNDERAGE individuals posting tons of the Pornographic/Gory stories housed at FFnet. I recently pulled almost everything from my list of published stories at FFnet. I only left a single sample chapter of each story up, and have added redirection information to this site for anyone who happens to be old enough to find me again. I was purged the very first time FFnet did this when everything was html manual additions to post anything, so was cautious about returning. I was purged for writing fight scenes and having realistic dialog that included words like bastard.

When I returned to FFnet, I was actually shocked when I started reading fanfiction after a 10 year hiatus. I noticed immediately that tons of the pornography was obviously written by teenagers and even younger sounding children. There are obvious clues when you read an immature person's sexual stories where context and lack of understanding comes across very clearly. Parents do need to be responsible for monitoring their children since their children are posting the most brutal, and smuttiest sexuality I've ever read.

Far too many children are raised by televisions more than by human beings. I know this is a fact because I have been raising other people's children for 20 some odd years as the only mom around that bothers to deal with the teenagers who look for guidance. I think in part their writing is a reflection of their curiosity about adult behaviors, or a sad sign of their premature hard gained knowledge of such topics.

However, I can agree that FFnet only upholds legal rules when they are forced to do so. Signing petitions will not change the legal issues caused by being a site which has members in the 13 age and up range. Deviant Art has several fan fiction groups putting out petitions left and right, yet the laws will not change, so FFnet has to finally clean up it's collective act or get closed permanently by the laws of the world, not just of USA. They are in trouble at this time for allowing their teenaged members to post mature or graphic content stories.

Too many people ignore terms of Service rules. It is a socially condoned flaw that crosses all age ranges/races and both genders. Contempt for law is a real problem across the board and in every nation. FFnet got their fingers burned thanks in part to to the above article so are now having to cover their collective butts. The kids who never should have been writing smut to begin with are losing their easy access for a short time. It will simply mean that they will find other places to put up their infantile rebellious attempts at literature. However, I foresee some of those sites also getting in trouble and having to revise their rules at some point to stay out of trouble with the old laws already on the books in many countries.

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