InBrightestDay's (Originals) Review Reply & Discussion Thread

[JayDee]

My two cents would be to stick with apotheosis – I hope you do!.

It’s got the benefit that a highly technical term being used wrongly by the general population after a major event (or due to some TV show. Fuckin’ data used as singular instead of datum.) is incredibly human and happens all the time to the point that outside of their original technical usage the general meaning of the word evolves.

Sure, some theologians probably complained about the mis-use while a corrupted Shondra-alike was fisting them, but everyone else would have gone with it. There’s no doubt going to be slang terms too, because these fuckers would be showing up in the fictional media of the day way more than in the real world!

“That bitch Murial Jenkins has become one of those Hellspunks.” “No, Mom, we call them  ‘Hell’s Punks.’ “ “Well I bet it wasn’t a taste of blood she had.”

Edited February 3, 2019 by JayDee

[InvidiaRed]

5 hours ago, InBrightestDay said:

Actually, considering a statement made in Part Three about how nobody’s putting any money on enchanted bullets actually killing an extradimensional creature, it really doesn’t make sense that they’re trying to kill her.  I tweaked Chloe’s dialogue somewhat to make it clear that they’re merely attempting to disable her.  Hopefully you’re okay with me making that change; I don’t want you to feel like I’m invalidating your reviews.

Oh, she definitely takes a lot of injury, to say the least, during the torture scene, but everything that hurts her is magical/demonic in nature.  Her wings are cut off with her own sword, which Eparlegna then turns into a whip to shred her back with.

This implied to me that she was highly resistant to damage from mundane weapons.  In addition, the chains driven through her palms seemed able to do that because of Eparlegna having pulled/cut two of his own claws off and attached them.

In other places, her physical toughness is highlighted, for instance with the stone tentacles in Part One.
 

And in Part Three.

Given all of this, I figured it wasn’t so much a conscious magical shield-raising as it was the innate resilience of her angelic flesh, and the equal toughness of demonic flesh or some form of magic (like the power of Luzurial’s own weapon) was required to overcome it.

However, you did remind me of something.  Luzurial’s power appears tied to her will, which is the whole point of torturing and humiliating her in the original story (aside from the fact that Eparlegna just enjoys it): she becomes physically weaker as her mental and emotional state worsens.  I followed through on that for Part One of my story (she’s in a very bad state when Kevin finds her, which is why the surgeons are able to suture her wound, as her state allows a metal needle to be pushed through her otherwise way-too-tough skin, and why she regenerates more slowly).  I had kind of used that in this part.  She’s feeling better (she’s had a good night’s sleep and is receiving emotional support), so she’s tougher now and should be healing faster, though she’s not at full strength yet, which is the reason the bullet stings a little and the anti-tank round bruises her, but I think I’ll go back and add a little more damage.  Maybe the Gungnir round will fracture her collarbone in addition to the bruise.

This takes place in 2082, so some technology is different, and the new tech is in popular culture courtesy of in-universe movies, TV shows, documentaries, etc.  Coilguns/gauss rifles are not terribly well-known now (aside from science nerds), but I thought in 63 years they may be more well-known as the technology becomes more widespread.

I don’t really want to use the word “demon” for anything that isn’t really a demon (especially since, as the summary indicated, we’re going to have an actual demon in the story soon).  I’d like to keep the term something that indicates that these are enhanced humans; people who have been changed into something more.  Do you think “augment” would work?  I know that’s a verb, but it’s also used as a noun in Star Trek to describe genetically augmented humans (like Khan).

Of course, if I use that, I start to feel like I’m ripping off Trek.

“Demi-fiend” also might work.

Actually, one last option could use the same wordplay as apotheosis.  Check this out: the word apotheosis comes from the Greek “apo” (from) and “theos” (god), which became “apotheoun” (to make a god of) and then apotheosis.  Well, “demon” comes from the Greek “daimon” and the Greek way of saying “demonize” would be “daimonopoioun” (similar to apotheoun), so maybe the demonic equivalent would be something like “daimonopoiosis”.

Granted, this doesn’t sound as cool as apotheosis...

*Shin Megami Tensei Digital Devil Saga Flashbacks* Demi-Fiend oh god...

Well why don’t you use Fall/ Decension or even Damned to describe them?  Apotheosis Or Ascendance is a state of becoming more.

Wouldn't it make more sense for the augmented human to have Fallen? Sure said human is more powerful but in doing so said human is much less than what they were. They are Damned. (Made more poignant if they willfully chose power over any chance of salvation.)

[InBrightestDay]

23 minutes ago, JayDee said:

My two cents would be to stick with apotheosis – I hope you do!.

It’s got the benefit that a highly technical term being used wrongly by the general population after a major event (or due to some TV show. Fuckin’ data used as singular instead of datum.) is incredibly human and happens all the time to the point that outside of their original technical usage the general meaning of the word evolves.

I admit I do want to stick with that.  Daimonopoiosis would be more accurate (and a cool use of Greek), but it’s a syllable longer than apotheosis, which makes it a bit more awkward to say, and like I said before, it just doesn’t sound as cool.

22 minutes ago, InvidiaRed said:

Well why don’t you use Fall/ Decension or even Damned to describe them?  Apotheosis Or Ascendance is a state of becoming more.

Wouldn't it make more sense for the augmented human to have Fallen? Sure said human is more powerful but in doing so said human is much less than what they were. They are Damned. (Made more poignant if they willfully chose power over any chance of salvation.) 

 That’s actually a really interesting idea.  I don’t want to use “Damned”, because that would apply to basically any soul condemned to Hell, instead of just the empowered humans.  “Fallen” sounds a bit too much like a description of an actual demon (since they’re fallen angels), but there is something appealing about “Descended.”  I think it’s going to be either apotheosis or descended.

[JayDee]

17 minutes ago, InBrightestDay said:

I admit I do want to stick with that.  Daimonopoiosis would be more accurate (and a cool use of Greek), but it’s a syllable longer than apotheosis, which makes it a bit more awkward to say, and like I said before, it just doesn’t sound as cool.

Listen to what your heart tells you!

InBrightestDay’s Heart: “What are you asking me for? I just pump blood. I don’t know this stuff. Try that know-it-all spleen.”

Eh, could use descended as a slang term and maybe have Chloe toss in a comment during that terminology explanation to Hobbs that people started using Apotheosis wrongly 75 years ago  maybe thanks to journalists mis-reporting or the belief that the hybrids were becoming more than human – the scientific explanations would have seen transhuman abilities as a plus presumably! - but it stuck!

Edited February 3, 2019 by JayDee

[JayDee]

Thinking again, when Hobbs used the term hybrid, that feels like another sort of general pop less-slangy term you’ve got there – I mean, he’d likely have heard the term apotheosis at some point in PPD training, but it was the easier on the mouth/spur of moment term ‘hybrid’ that came to mind, leading to Chloe’s nerves kicking in and filling him in with what had become the technical term – borrowed by science from religion to explain the effects of certain extra-dimensional incursions (or whatever the sciency jazz out be) on the folks who make the deals.

[Thundercloud]

21 hours ago, InBrightestDay said:

Actually, considering a statement made in Part Three about how nobody’s putting any money on enchanted bullets actually killing an extradimensional creature, it really doesn’t make sense that they’re trying to kill her.  I tweaked Chloe’s dialogue somewhat to make it clear that they’re merely attempting to disable her.  Hopefully you’re okay with me making that change; I don’t want you to feel like I’m invalidating your reviews.
 

No problem at all. I am perfectly fine with writing the review again with adjustment for the changes you did. After all it is you who took the effort to rewrite the chapter based on my input.

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I figured it wasn’t so much a conscious magical shield-raising as it was the innate resilience of her angelic flesh, and the equal toughness of demonic flesh or some form of magic (like the power of Luzurial’s own weapon) was required to overcome it.

However, you did remind me of something.  Luzurial’s power appears tied to her will, which is the whole point of torturing and humiliating her in the original story (aside from the fact that Eparlegna just enjoys it): she becomes physically weaker as her mental and emotional state worsens.  I followed through on that for Part One of my story (she’s in a very bad state when Kevin finds her, which is why the surgeons are able to suture her wound, as her state allows a metal needle to be pushed through her otherwise way-too-tough skin, and why she regenerates more slowly).  I had kind of used that in this part.  She’s feeling better (she’s had a good night’s sleep and is receiving emotional support), so she’s tougher now and should be healing faster, though she’s not at full strength yet, which is the reason the bullet stings a little and the anti-tank round bruises her, but I think I’ll go back and add a little more damage.  Maybe the Gungnir round will fracture her collarbone in addition to the bruise.

I think there is a fine line between magical shield that is drained of power and willpower that deteriorate. There is also the interesting bit in the beginning of JayDees story when she spend effort to aid people who are tormented by the black force but afterward worry that this effort might left her weakened. For me this suggests that Luzurial in Whore of Heaven is spending some kind of magical/holy force to do supernatural stuff like resisting damage.

Honestly I don’t think getting these things consistent between your stories matter very much to your story but from an author perspective I think that making the character too impervious to harm can make it harder to create situations when the reader worry about the character.

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This takes place in 2082, so some technology is different, and the new tech is in popular culture courtesy of in-universe movies, TV shows, documentaries, etc.  Coilguns/gauss rifles are not terribly well-known now (aside from science nerds), but I thought in 63 years they may be more well-known as the technology becomes more widespread.
 

It is your story so no problem if you think this should be general knowledge. I was not expecting Kevin to be interested in weapons, but if it is general knowledge then that thought is not as relevant.

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I don’t really want to use the word “demon” for anything that isn’t really a demon (especially since, as the summary indicated, we’re going to have an actual demon in the story soon).  I’d like to keep the term something that indicates that these are enhanced humans; people who have been changed into something more.  Do you think “augment” would work?  I know that’s a verb, but it’s also used as a noun in Star Trek to describe genetically augmented humans (like Khan).

Of course, if I use that, I start to feel like I’m ripping off Trek.

“Demi-fiend” also might work.

Actually, one last option could use the same wordplay as apotheosis.  Check this out: the word apotheosis comes from the Greek “apo” (from) and “theos” (god), which became “apotheoun” (to make a god of) and then apotheosis.  Well, “demon” comes from the Greek “daimon” and the Greek way of saying “demonize” would be “daimonopoioun” (similar to apotheoun), so maybe the demonic equivalent would be something like “daimonopoiosis”.

Granted, this doesn’t sound as cool as apotheosis…

Quite many settings invent a setting-specific word for these kind of things to not get too much baggage from other stories. If you like the name then continue to use it.

On the other hand...why do they write holy inscriptions on the weapon and expect them to work if they don’t think they are dealing with enemies of their faith? I think if mysterious being  appeared on our earth and we discovered holy symbols hurt them we would pretty soon talk about them as demons or devils.

[InBrightestDay]

2 hours ago, Thundercloud said:

No problem at all. I am perfectly fine with writing the review again with adjustment for the changes you did. After all it is you who took the effort to rewrite the chapter based on my input.

I’ll send you a PM with the changes I made.  It won’t fix all of the things you didn’t like, but it should address at least some of them.

2 hours ago, Thundercloud said:

I think there is a fine line between magical shield that is drained of power and willpower that deteriorate. There is also the interesting bit in the beginning of JayDees story when she spend effort to aid people who are tormented by the black force but afterward worry that this effort might left her weakened. For me this suggests that Luzurial in Whore of Heaven is spending some kind of magical/holy force to do supernatural stuff like resisting damage.

That energy is what she calls her inner light.  It’s tied to (or is) her willpower and it allows her to do stuff like create creatures from human virtues, blast enemies and burn things.  I figure it affects her physical toughness as well, but that the toughness of her skin and muscles is not something she has to concentrate on; it just happens automatically.  The other things, like burning things or crafting the virtue creatures, are conscious actions that she has to think about.

2 hours ago, Thundercloud said:

Honestly I don’t think getting these things consistent between your stories matter very much to your story

Well, consistency is something I try for when I can, since this is intended as a sequel.  I’d like it to fit with what’s in Whore of Heaven as well as possible.  There are some changes, of course, but I try to keep things the same.

2 hours ago, Thundercloud said:

from an author perspective I think that making the character too impervious to harm can make it harder to create situations when the reader worry about the character.

I understand completely.  Trust me though, even if she had been completely immune to the Gungnir, she’s not immune to the stuff Eparlegna does, and as of the end of Part Three, he’ll be back.  She is most definitely in danger.

2 hours ago, Thundercloud said:

On the other hand...why do they write holy inscriptions on the weapon and expect them to work if they don’t think they are dealing with enemies of their faith? I think if mysterious being  appeared on our earth and we discovered holy symbols hurt them we would pretty soon talk about them as demons or devils.

The reason I didn’t want to use the word demon was because there are actual demons in the setting (and as I just mentioned, one of them is our villain), and I didn’t want to use the same word for the enhanced humans.

Edited February 4, 2019 by InBrightestDay

[InBrightestDay]

Part Three is up now, and we have another jumbo-size review.
 

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JayDee

Abdul’s "Do angels poop?” just coming out of nowhere after the serious questions still cracks me up. Of course, Luzurial having an anus was established in Whore of Heaven, but it takes The Woman in the Statue to give a proper reason why – ‘cos sometimes they might choose to eat! Breaking bread with mortals! Even if it’s pizza rather than bread, which is another mildly amusing image - The Archangel Luzurial, 14 billion years old, waiting for mortals to bring her... pizza, then later on... eating pizza – Kevin and Abdul’s grinning makes total sense.

Yeah, I added the bit about them grinning because, well, there’s just something kind of funny about having an angel eating pizza on your couch.  It makes me smile thinking about it.

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Then comes the sex question – Abdul proving the worst wingman in recorded history there. And, yes, the emotion is very real. It made me tear up to see how Luzurial reacted to the question on sex and, the whole reliving it/throwing up was superbly written. “And she couldn’t stop crying.” Is the killer line, wow. No wonder Kevin got so pissed with Abdul too, even only realising that it was ‘something sexual’ from the whole ‘my name is whore’ thing. It’s a funny thing how you can write a whole bunch of horrific shit happening to a character, and then when 75 years later they’re still traumatised and suffering it makes you feel bad. Although that may only apply to those of us who write a whole bunch of horrific shit happening to a character.

Abdul’s actually trying to be a reverse wingman.  He knows Kevin’s feeling...well, something for Luzurial, and is trying to head that off, and instead triggers a nasty flashback.  The flashback itself was honestly kind of rough for me to write, since in order to do it I had to reread the oral rape from Whore of Heaven and experience all those emotions again.  I teared up writing it, particularly the dialogue in that moment just before she throws up.

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Still though, I think most readers would be hard pressed to read that section and feel it as more than just angst. It’s pretty heartbreaking.

I’ll admit I didn’t quite understand this.  You think they’ll be hard-pressed to see it as more than just angst?  I mean, it is angst, so that would make sense.  Or were you saying you thought it was more than just angst?

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Then it’s sort of sweet with them talking, shared experiences and that. I can see why you have the happiest memory bit as your favourite part. It’s also a really powerful way of showing off her age, but also it’s like a ‘The creator is directly creating and it’s a beautiful thing’ moment.

Luzurial’s happiest memory was one of my favorite things to write in this chapter.  I was trying to think of what it would be, and the stereotypical answer would be something from the Bible (Moses leading the Hebrews out of Egypt, the birth of Jesus or something like that), but I always thought that if you could talk to a being older than the universe, that one of the most amazing things he or she would have gotten to see would be the very first stars igniting 200 million years after the Big Bang, and the first galaxies forming about 200 million years after that.  I also thought it worked for the characters wanting to feel better, as it was literally about the universe emerging from darkness into light.

As for Kevin’s backstory, I wanted him to have something that allowed him to sort of relate to Luzurial.  Obviously he can’t really relate to what she’s been through, but he does know what it’s like to make a mistake and see terrible consequences for it.

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Caulfield seemed pretty cool – it’s nice to get an IA style character on the straight and narrow who is actually good people. The way she’s got him bang to rights with a bit of research is great, straight-up a competent character doing her job, and after the amusing line quoted above it does hammer home how differently it could have gone.

Yeah, she, along with Chloe and her team, are examples of the decent people in the PPD, showing that the organization may have corrupt individuals in it, but that it’s not really an evil organization.

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Eparlegna’s arrival in the story was badass.  Want to hear something funny? The old song shuffle brought Black Sabbath’s War Pigs up while I was reading this tonight. Just as Eparlegna’s laugh started in the story, there was the song lyric “Satan laughing spreads his wings.” Of course, it’s just a coincidence.

That’s kind of amazing.  And yes, I wanted Eparlegna’s return to be as intimidating as I could make it.

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Finally, what a great fucking last line. That’s just a great example of a nasty mental image and horrible end encapsulated in just a few words.

I knew I wasn’t going to be able to show the horrific stuff like you were able to in the first story, so I thought maybe I could still get some level of horror by letting the reader’s imagination do the work.

Oh, and for two notes you made in the review: I have enabled anonymous reviews (I didn’t realize they were turned off!) and have removed the “flashback” qualifier from the Rape tag.  I think at the time I was thinking that tentacles automatically counted as rape, but then I realized that there is consensual tentacle stuff out there.

Edited February 5, 2019 by InBrightestDay

[JayDee]

10 hours ago, InBrightestDay said:

Part Three is up now, and we have another jumbo-size review.

With so many AFF readers apparantly unwilling to review I’m filling in the gaps!

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Abdul’s actually trying to be a reverse wingman.  He knows Kevin’s feeling...well, something for Luzurial, and is trying to head that off, and instead triggers a nasty flashback.  The flashback itself was honestly kind of rough for me to write, since in order to do it I had to reread the oral rape from Whore of Heaven and experience all those emotions again.  I teared up writing it, particularly the dialogue in that moment just before she throws up

Definitely a successfully emotional scene. Sorry ‘bout making ya feel bad with the original. Like I’ve said, I guess I do even feel a little bad for writing it. Although I’d probably do it all over again, because if you’re wanting to write and the only muse talking is the one with the crazy fucked up ideas… eh. You did great with that whole section though!

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Still though, I think most readers would be hard pressed to read that section and feel it as more than just angst. It’s pretty heartbreaking.

I’ll admit I didn’t quite understand this.  You think they’ll be hard-pressed to see it as more than just angst?  I mean, it is angst, so that would make sense.  Or were you saying you thought it was more than just angst?

Oh FFS, I guess sloppy writing is my brand. For a start it should be “and not feel”. I was trying to say I think readers would read it and see more than just a single note angsty scene and a lot more nuanced emotion going on. It’s not one note, it’s a symphony.

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Yeah, she, along with Chloe and her team, are examples of the decent people in the PPD, showing that the organization may have corrupt individuals in it, but that it’s not really an evil organization.

I think you’ve done a pretty good job of showing good and decent folks in positions of authority – the cops in part one doing their job and so on – as well as baddies like Cassie and Hobbs. Nice mix!

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That’s kind of amazing.  And yes, I wanted Eparlegna’s return to be as intimidating as I could make it.

It’s pretty intimidating on it’s own, suddenly he’s back and he’s hungry. The unintended coincidental soundtrack gave it an extra push. Boy, I hope if that multiversal “Everything happens somewhere” thing was true, he’s not found out he’s a character in stories somewhere, stories where, for example he was defeated off page in a single line in his first Originals domain, or went down with one heavy slice from Kizzy in a later one. He might be more than a little pissed off.

Ha ha. heh. Ohfuck.

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I knew I wasn’t going to be able to show the horrific stuff like you were able to in the first story, so I thought maybe I could still get some level of horror by letting the reader’s imagination do the work.

I guess there’s a nice bit of book ending too, with the chapter both starting and ending with a nice filling meal. 

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Oh, and for two notes you made in the review: I have enabled anonymous reviews (I didn’t realize they were turned off!) and have removed the “flashback” qualifier from the Rape tag.  I think at the time I was thinking that tentacles automatically counted as rape, but then I realized that there is consensual tentacle stuff out there.

Absolutely! Some of the best stuff is consensual. There’s even that term, “consentacle” which  might be from a Futurama episode. But I think tentacle is just fine.  Heh, I one wrote a prompt fic which has a girl fantasising about a tentacle monster under her bed – she would definitely have consented if asked, although I think the monster saw her as just a friend.

My profile actually lost the setting for anonymous reviews for a while somehow, like an unintended reset. Once I noticed and set anon reviews to be allowed again I did get one or two more reviews I think. I get that some folks have issues with spammers and that, but I have to say that I’ve been pretty fine with anon reviews being on. (and in some fandoms there have been times when choosing to write a certain character pairing enrages people – which is why I’d do it, because fuck ‘em – and then some readers abuse anonymous reviews.)

[InBrightestDay]

5 hours ago, JayDee said:

With so many AFF readers apparantly unwilling to review I’m filling in the gaps!

Actually, I think I’m doing alright with regards to reviews so far.  I have three chapters up and 9 reviews, so if my luck holds I might have 27 reviews by the time I’m done, only a third of which will be from you.

5 hours ago, JayDee said:

Definitely a successfully emotional scene. Sorry ‘bout making ya feel bad with the original. Like I’ve said, I guess I do even feel a little bad for writing it. Although I’d probably do it all over again, because if you’re wanting to write and the only muse talking is the one with the crazy fucked up ideas… eh. You did great with that whole section though!

Thank you!   And don’t worry about making me feel bad.  You wrote what you called a “sexualized horror” story, so aside from the niche audience who would have been enjoying Luzurial’s pain, it was probably supposed to be upsetting.  And hey, you’ve enjoyed this story so far, and as I’ve said elsewhere, I wouldn’t have asked to write this if I hadn’t felt so amazingly bad for her.

5 hours ago, JayDee said:

Oh FFS, I guess sloppy writing is my brand. For a start it should be “and not feel”. I was trying to say I think readers would read it and see more than just a single note angsty scene and a lot more nuanced emotion going on. It’s not one note, it’s a symphony.

Judging by other reviews, it’s a symphony with a few sections playing off key, but nonetheless I appreciate the compliment!

5 hours ago, JayDee said:

Boy, I hope if that multiversal “Everything happens somewhere” thing was true, he’s not found out he’s a character in stories somewhere, stories where, for example he was defeated off page in a single line in his first Originals domain, or went down with one heavy slice from Kizzy in a later one. He might be more than a little pissed off.

Ha ha. heh. Ohfuck.

I feel like he can’t really do anything about it.  If fictional characters could protest their fates, you’d probably have more to worry about from Luzurial, Lily Flynn, Wonder Woman, Jill Valentine, Private Vasquez, Cassie Cage, Kylie, Pan…

You’d have one or two men, and then a long line of badass women waiting to kick your ass.

And no, I didn’t actually read any of those, but the summaries and titles are generally enough for me to figure out what’s going to happen.

5 hours ago, JayDee said:

I guess there’s a nice bit of book ending too, with the chapter both starting and ending with a nice filling meal.  

Heh.  Also: Ew.

[InBrightestDay]

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Thundercloud

I wrote an earlier review about chapter two where I pointed out some issues that disturbed my reading. Further discussion showed that InBrightestDay had explanations for most things and with just some minor tweaks of text InBrightestDay has now managed to resolve these things so the reader is not left wondering about these details.

I am happy to say that the current chapter two is improved and reads much better with these adjustments. It is still a rather short chapter plotwise, but I would say that it is well worth the read. I look forward in learning how InBrightestDay intend to reimagine JayDees setting.

Thank you!   The second chapter is always going to be short, but I’m glad to see I was able to address some of your other concerns.

Edited February 6, 2019 by InBrightestDay

[InBrightestDay]

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ANON – InVred

Alas, Poor Caulfield

Through no fault of your own.

A traitor's peal brought thy end.

  Funny you should lead with a Hamlet reference, since Eparlegna’s apparently rather fond of those when eating people.

Edited February 6, 2019 by InBrightestDay

[JayDee]

19 hours ago, InBrightestDay said:

I feel like he can’t really do anything about it.  If fictional characters could protest their fates, you’d probably have more to worry about from Luzurial, Lily Flynn, Wonder Woman, Jill Valentine, Private Vasquez, Cassie Cage, Kylie, Pan…

You’d have one or two men, and then a long line of badass women waiting to kick your ass.

And no, I didn’t actually read any of those, but the summaries and titles are generally enough for me to figure out what’s going to happen.

Ahh well, I don’t need to worry about any of the non-original characters, because per the last paragraph of this post I realised all of the fanfic characters I write are so blatently out of character that rather than being the actual characters they’re all my OCs pretending to be the proper characters in a fictional cosplay/b-movie “cheap off brand” set up using various prosthetics and, where called for, buckets of fake blood and old style horror movie effects. No fucking CGI here. And as for Luzurial, well, she seems like she might be pretty forgiving. Wait, no, she says the only “forgiving” she’s interested in here is “for giving me a stab in the face with a flaming sword.”

 

[InBrightestDay]

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Sinfulwolf

The coninueing tale is still very well written and enjoyable. I certainly do feel for Luzurial, especially when she gets hit with them flashbacks in a clear case of PTSD. Though this chapter certainly does give the story it's cause of the 'Angst' tag.

This and some of Part Seven anyway.  As for Luzurial and PTSD, her mind, while very close to a human one, is quite resilient (it’s the only way she came out of that statue sane), so I didn’t agonize over doing an exact portrayal of PTSD, but I did do some research.  Specifically, I found out that there are four symptom groups for PTSD: intrusive thoughts, avoidance, negative thoughts and feelings, and reactive symptoms (often called “arousal symptoms”, but here that might be misread).

I decided that Luzurial wouldn’t have the “avoidance” symptoms (where the affected person avoids areas, objects and other things that remind them of the traumatic event), but that she would manifest intrusive memories (the flashbacks), negative thoughts and feelings (such as an overwhelming sense of shame) and to a very slight level the reactive symptoms.  Those include having trouble sleeping, which we see on her first night after being freed, but seems to be remedied to a large extent by Kevin sleeping in the room with her.

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The second portion of it all... the tentacle scene was quite sexy. Despite it being non-consensual.

Thanks!  Like I said in the author’s note, it’s the first tentacle scene I’ve ever written, so I was nervous about how it was going to go over.

And now, a dramatic reenactment.

Sunday night, at a bedroom desk somewhere in the United States

Me 1: Okay, we’ve polished the Q&A session and the tentacle scene.  Is there anything else we need to do so we can post this thing tomorrow morning?

Me 2: Well, we did notice that in the rough draft there’s no explanation for why IA doesn’t come looking for Caulfield before the shit really hits the fan.  I mean, she’s going to be missed.

Me 1: Yeah, we’re going to have to mention that a false paper trail has been created, but where do we put that exposition?

Me 2: Well, there’s that line in Part Four about information control; that seems like a natural place for it to go.

Me 1: But if we do that, there’s going to be a week where people are going to start to wonder about it.

Me 2: We could put the exposition in Part Three and have Hobbs say it, but if we do that, then we’ll have to mess with the dialogue a bit more.

Me 1: So you’re suggesting we be lazy?

Me 2: Trust me, we can wait until Part Four.  No one is going to…

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Though, the only thing that raises an eyebrow is that Hobbs says that no one will miss our IA lass because she doesn't have a relationship. I think someone just going missing, especially in IA, is going to raise some eyebrows.

Me 2: ...notice.

Me 1:

Me 2: Well...now we know, and knowing is half the battle!  G.I.-

Me 1: NO!

Sooo I went back and added in the following little explainer in Part Three instead of waiting for Part Four (with credit to you in the Author’s Note):
 

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I’ve gone to great lengths, squirreling away the money to have this chamber built, cautiously seeking out like-minded individuals and getting their help to move the specimen in.  I guess now I’m going to need some help with information control too.”  He smiled.  “I’m thinking you’ll go on a nice vacation, Barbara, somewhere tropical with relaxing sandy beaches.  That’s what the paper trail will say, anyway.  And then you just won’t come back.  It’s sad how, in spite of all the progress we’ve made as a society, there are still places in the world with unfortunately high crime rates, places where an attractive woman traveling alone might just…disappear.”

“You can’t think that’ll hold up to any kind of scrutiny.”

“Oh, it won’t hold up forever,” Hobbs said, “but it doesn’t have to; it only has to last long enough.”

“Long enough for what?”

“Long enough for us to change the world,” Hobbs finished.  Circling back around to stand in front of Barbara, Hobbs looked at someone behind and to the left of her.

“Cassie?” he asked, “are we ready yet?”

 

Edited February 7, 2019 by InBrightestDay

[InBrightestDay]

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Thundercloud

Chapter 3 of the story was a very solid read, but I had some questions of the pacing of the chapter at the start. The actual start of chapter with the questioning felt a bit weird...why would they think these questions be more important than asking the angel that have been imprisioned since the rapture about that particular event?

There are two potential reasons they don’t ask about events during the Rupture.  The first is that Kevin knows that something bad happened to Luzurial that day, and as he mentioned in the first chapter, he’s never going to push her to explain it.  He figures she’ll tell him when she’s ready.  The other reason, though, you caught onto in the review.
 

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On the other hand I do understand why going into talking about the rapture might cause memories to surface that would ruin the build of the scene to question about sex that trigger the same kind of memories in a smart way.  The way you wrap in the quotes from the earlier story is mastefully done and I don't think you need to rewise anything.

Thank you!

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One detail you might consider adding is to have Hobbs using a bullet with angel (blood) on it to activate the breaking of container. This is kind of sugggested from the fact that they take the trouble to send the agents with Cassies defect bullets with special inscriptions, but being explicit about this would give a better explanation why the minons could not get Eparlegna out before the story starts.

I did not think of that, but that is a seriously cool idea!
 

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Oh, one more thing. You put a a lot of effort into describing a chain of command for the angels, but when you talk about appearances you seems to fall back on the Maseket Atzilut angelic order instead.

I am not really familiar with Jewish angelic traditions so I can not say how compatible things are...on the other hand the whole exchange left me kind of surprised. I was on the impression that no matter what classifications scheme for angels you use the one constant in all traditions (and christianity) is that highest level contain the four archangels Michael, Gabriel, Uriel, and Raphael. These are the angels closest to god of all angels and they stand around the heavenly throne except when on special missions.

It's actually really cool that you brought this up, and I'm glad to have this discussion thread, since there was no way I was going to be able to discuss this in an Author's Note.

So, there are actually several different angelic hierarchies, none of which is terribly canon (the biblical sources are mostly silent on this stuff).  The four archangels you mentioned (Michael, Gabriel, Uriel and Raphael) show up in multiple sources, but are mentioned together in that specific context in the Book of Enoch, which is considered canonical by Beta Israel/Ethiopian Jewish people, as well as the Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Churches, but is considered noncanonical by other Jewish and Christian groups.

There are five different potential Jewish angelic hierarchies, including the version you mentioned from the Maseket Atzilut, all of which contain ten ranks of angels.  When I had Luzurial say "ten if you count the Ophanim," that was indeed meant as an allusion to the difference between various angelic hierarchies, not only in Judaism but in Christianity as well.

The version of the Celestial Hierarchy I used, however, is the Christian angelic hierarchy, which is based primarily on Pseudo-Dionysius (On the Celestial Hierarchy) and Saint Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologica), who drew on passages from the New Testament (Galatians 3:26-28, Matthew 22:24-33, Ephesians 1:21-23 and Colossians 1:16).

Yes, there was in fact a guy called Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite.  His real name is unknown, but he wrote using "Dionysius" as a pseudonym, hence the "Pseudo" attached to his name.

Anyway, the Christian angelic hierarchy features nine ranks of angels, organized into three "spheres".  Angels of the First Sphere are the direct attendants of God, while angels of the Second Sphere serve as "governors of creation" (keeping the universe running), and angels of the Third Sphere concern themselves with the affairs of mortals, acting as guides, protectors and messengers.

The First Sphere consists of the Seraphim, Cherubim and Thrones, while the Second contains the Dominions, Virtues and Powers, and the Third consists of Principalities, Archangels and Angels.

I mentioned the Hierarchy more as a military chain of command than anything else because the role of the Second Sphere pretty much has to be different in a modern, scientific cosmology.  The Powers, for instance, don't need to keep planets and moons moving around when things like angular momentum and gravity keep everything in place.

The idea that Luzurial does not receive orders directly from God is going to become rather important in Part Seven, as is her appearance/anatomy.  While I figure she would normally use some minor level of shapeshifting (back when she had wings, she probably made them invisible when she visited Earth), anatomically speaking she's very human, as opposed to something like a seraph, which has six wings and is MADE OF FIRE.  Sorry, but it was necessary to write that in all caps because it is freaking METAL.

Actually, this makes me wonder about the Slumber-verse and what Kate's reaction must have been when she found out what Kizzy really looks like.

Edited February 8, 2019 by InBrightestDay

[JayDee]

“When I put my band together can I get a picture of you for the logo and later an album cover? Also, is rude to do this while picturing you?” Kate makes the sign of the horns and headbangs.

Edit:

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It's actually really cool that you brought this up, and I'm glad to have this discussion thread, since there was no way I was going to be able to discuss this in an Author's Note

I meant to say! You don’t need to wait to be asked, you can use these forum threads to lay out any background info you want, some authors have done it and then put a link to the thread with extra info. It’s just story extracts that are limited to something like 10 lines. So, like, if you wanted to explain stuff like the thought you put into character names or whatever you can throw it all in here. S’up to you really.

Edited February 8, 2019 by JayDee

[Sinfulwolf]

Well, you’ve done well with the PTSD stuff, at least from my experiences with it. 

And heh, that’ll happen. The update to dialogue does make sense in the context, and it makes a lot more sense knowing it’s not supposed to last for even an overly long time, though I would have accepted a “You’ll find out next chapter”.

[Thundercloud]

17 hours ago, InBrightestDay said:

So, there are actually several different angelic hierarchies, none of which is terribly canon (the biblical sources are mostly silent on this stuff).  The four archangels you mentioned (Michael, Gabriel, Uriel and Raphael) show up in multiple sources, but are mentioned together in that specific context in the Book of Enoch, which is considered canonical by Beta Israel/Ethiopian Jewish people, as well as the Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Churches, but is considered noncanonical by other Jewish and Christian groups.

It is Uriel that is not part of archangels in Catholics and the Ortodox tradition. The others are the three named archangels out of seven that is supposed to exist. I have heard Michael and Gabriel mentioned in protestant services even if most books that mentions these are not considered good for canon use.

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There are five different potential Jewish angelic hierarchies, including the version you mentioned from the Maseket Atzilut, all of which contain ten ranks of angels.  When I had Luzurial say "ten if you count the Ophanim," that was indeed meant as an allusion to the difference between various angelic hierarchies, not only in Judaism but in Christianity as well.
The version of the Celestial Hierarchy I used, however, is the Christian angelic hierarchy, which is based primarily on Pseudo-Dionysius (On the Celestial Hierarchy) and Saint Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologica), who drew on passages from the New Testament (Galatians 3:26-28, Matthew 22:24-33, Ephesians 1:21-23 and Colossians 1:16).

The reason I mentioned Masekat Atzilut is the angels you list as most alien is the upper level of angels in that source. The nine level of christian angels I think is most associated with Dante Alighieri today. All power to you if you want to use that in your story.

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Anyway, the Christian angelic hierarchy features nine ranks of angels, organized into three "spheres".  Angels of the First Sphere are the direct attendants of God, while angels of the Second Sphere serve as "governors of creation" (keeping the universe running), and angels of the Third Sphere concern themselves with the affairs of mortals, acting as guides, protectors and messengers.

The First Sphere consists of the Seraphim, Cherubim and Thrones, while the Second contains the Dominions, Virtues and Powers, and the Third consists of Principalities, Archangels and Angels.

Personally I would not call the angelic hierarchy to be very Christian...more like medieval beliefs than anything anyone consider today. Micheal that command the forces of heaven on the hand is something that is directly mentioned in the book of Revalation. Does not make sense if he a low level angel..

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The idea that Luzurial does not receive orders directly from God is going to become rather important in Part Seven, as is her appearance/anatomy.  While I figure she would normally use some minor level of shapeshifting (back when she had wings, she probably made them invisible when she visited Earth), anatomically speaking she's very human, as opposed to something like a seraph, which has six wings and is MADE OF FIRE.  Sorry, but it was necessary to write that in all caps because it is freaking METAL.

Go with what feels best for you to make a great story. One plot device you could keep in store is that Luzurial can maybe not shapeshift after loosing her wings. Actually using medieval style Seraphs in you story sound like a headache…imagine how unstoppable they will be...

[InBrightestDay]

8 hours ago, Sinfulwolf said:

The update to dialogue does make sense in the context, and it makes a lot more sense knowing it’s not supposed to last for even an overly long time, though I would have accepted a “You’ll find out next chapter”. 

It was definitely something of a back and forth, as the joke “reenactment” suggested.  There’s a bit of exposition in Part Four about how two members of the “cult” are working on controlling information, and that would have been a good place to talk about Caulfield’s “vacation.”  However, if people are going to notice anyway, I figure it’s best to explain it somewhat earlier.

3 hours ago, Thundercloud said:

It is Uriel that is not part of archangels in Catholics and the Ortodox tradition. The others are the three named archangels out of seven that is supposed to exist. I have heard Michael and Gabriel mentioned in protestant services even if most books that mentions these are not considered good for canon use.

Sorry, I may have given you the wrong impression there (and also messed up what book these guys come from).  I wasn’t trying to say that the archangels in question were noncanonical, but rather that their mention in the Book of Enoch was.  You are absolutely correct in saying that Michael and Gabriel are mentioned in the Bible.  As for the seven archangels, I just discovered that those are from the deuterocanonical Book of Tobit, which is presumably what you were referencing (“I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand in the glorious presence of the Lord, ready to serve Him.” Tobit 12:15), with Michael, Gabriel and Raphael specifically being named.  Pseudo-Dionysius, this time in the Corpus Areopagiticum, names all seven (Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, Camael, Jophiel and Zadkiel).

My confusion came from the fact that I’m a Protestant (Lutheran, specifically), so I haven’t actually read Tobit.  It’s deuterocanonical, which means it’s canon for Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians, but not for the Protestant denominations; it’s literally not in our bibles.

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Personally I would not call the angelic hierarchy to be very Christian...more like medieval beliefs than anything anyone consider today.

As I said, none of the angelic hierarchies are considered hard canon (I certainly never heard about it in church).  It’s mostly just a neat idea from medieval Christianity that works for this story (I’ll explain when we get to Part Seven), so I put it in.

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Micheal that command the forces of heaven on the hand is something that is directly mentioned in the book of Revalation. Does not make sense if he a low level angel..

Well, yes and no.  Michael commands a force of angels, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s in command of everyone.

“Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon.  And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.  And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world – he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.” Revelation 12:7-9 (English Standard Version)

So Michael commands a force of angels, but not necessarily all of them.

In addition, this is an aspect of the story that diverges from its biblical roots.  Whore of Heaven mentions that Luzurial is the strongest of the host, except for angels who serve as direct vessels for the Creator’s power.  Presumably Michael (and perhaps the other six archangels from Tobit) are vessels, far stronger than any other archangel and thus outside the normal ranking system.

Edited February 9, 2019 by InBrightestDay

[JayDee]

AFF: Where even the pages of the theological philosophy textbooks are stuck together.

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Actually using medieval style Seraphs in you story sound like a headache…imagine how unstoppable they will be...

Rumor has it at least one of them can be distracted with new episodes of Star Trek.

[InBrightestDay]

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JayDee

I’d have probably made a bit of a boob by staying in the gorefest, and ended up looking like a tit. I’ll make a clean breast of it – I was trying for some puns. I’ll stop now before describing Luzurial and Kevin as a nice pair or something, don’t want to rack up bad feeling.

You know, it’s a shame my dad can’t know about this, because he would have appreciated that Hurricane of Puns.

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you’ve got a description there that puts across Luzurial’s attractiveness and also gets into Kevin’s simple pleasure that Luzurial is getting stronger. Yeah, he’s got a crush but it doesn’t come across as “Nice guy” creeping to try and get something, he comes across as genuinely decent and concerned.

That was something I was really trying for when writing Kevin and Luzurial’s developing relationship.  Given what she’s been through, I wanted it to remain as clear as possible that he doesn’t expect anything in return for his help; he really does just want to see her get better.

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And also a breast man. (Self insert tag? :p)

I know that was a joke, but aspects of my personality will inevitably make it into characters I write.  I tend to write male characters who are somewhat insecure because I’ve always kind of felt that way; I always feel like I should know more about the world than I do.  I try to give characters some kind of distinguishing traits, in this case Kevin’s temper (and the fact that my parents are still alive), but they’re all going to kind of resemble me in some aspects.  And yes, bringing it back to the remark that started this, I am a fan of breasts.

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The description of what happens to the students hands trying to open the door is a really nasty image – good job! It’s just a burn, but it comes across so well, especially just after MacBride has found out the pen is mightier when it can turn back into a sword. That and the paragraph describing the invader footage really get that violence tag earned, and it isn’t even over yet!

Next chapter: Enter the Charnel Spider.

The bit where MacBride gets cut in half, specifically how Eparlegna just does this nonchalant flick of the wrist, was kind of a way of showing both his demonic strength and how insanely sharp the sword is.

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“I don’t know if that’s a good idea,” he said.  “I haven’t practiced in four years.  What happens if I step on your toes?”

“A bullet struck my forehead to no effect,” she said with a reassuring smile.  “I doubt your shoes will harm me.”

See that’s kind of badass, but it’s also pretty funny. Kevin worried about Luzurial’s toes when she got only briefly inconvenienced by a railgun to the chest earlier.

I actually added that bit after I sent you the rough draft.  Originally she was just being reassuring (she said something like “you will not harm me”), but then I realized how silly the idea of him stepping on her foot was after guns didn’t hurt her, so I had her make a joke.  Luzurial doesn’t joke often, but it does happen (see her annoyed “Ow” when Chloe shoots her in the head).

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“No sin was beyond forgiveness, but these two would never ask for it.” Is another really fine line. Plus it means Luzurial can ethically and morally just fuck them up for being damned and demon inspired and trying to hurt her and her friends.

That’s about it.  I wanted an opportunity to see Luzurial go full Wrath of God on someone, and at this power level, this was about the best she could do.

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Kevin’s right – watching Luzurial kick some ass is hot. Great stuff!

Yeah, I kind of have a thing for female action heroes.  Much like my somewhat insecure male leads, that’s probably going to pop up in other stories I write.

Edited February 12, 2019 by InBrightestDay

[InBrightestDay]

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InvidiaRed

Eparlegna sure does have alot of pride for being cast down and sealed away.

It’s a character flaw of his.  He’s not completely off base; he trapped, raped, mutilated and tortured an archangel, and he got away with it...for a while.  And then, after being bound, he was eventually released by humans.  Where he goes wrong is in assuming this is something he can keep getting away with, leading to the other thing you pointed out.

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"I can assure you, subtlety is overrated.”

Subtlety also ensures there aren't heroes and armies on your doorstep. But okay do it your way lets see how that goes.

While Eparlegna was strong enough to destroy armies 75 years earlier, what you’re saying is exactly the point Hobbs is trying to make.  I also love the sarcasm, by the way.

Oh, and “subtlety is overrated” is basically Eparlegna summing up his own character.  When you’ve built yourself a throne made of human bones, subtlety has officially gone out the window.

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Pride does come before the fall after all.

Or the nutshot, at any rate  (Part Six).

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Also immense kudos to Luzurial. Partly for demonstrating why you don't throw big objects at beings stronger than you.

Yeah, we’ve seen how durable Luzurial is, both here and in the last story, but this is the first example (not related to bite force, anyway) that we really get of how strong she is.  And this isn’t even her at full power.

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And also, for the courage to know for a fact that her rapist is there likely waiting for her and still making the descision to confront him.

This is one of the things I’ve always admired about the character.  No matter what happens to her, Luzurial remains dedicated to the protection of human life.  Even though she’s nowhere near ready to face Eparlegna again, she’s still going in, because she can’t let Kevin and Abdul take the risk alone; that’s just the person she is.

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I couldn't do that and its been years.

...Assuming that sentence means what I think it means, I just want you to know that you do not have to keep reading this story if the subject matter is dragging up painful memories.  I appreciate the reviews, but it’s not worth upsetting you.

Edited February 12, 2019 by InBrightestDay

[InvidiaRed]

2 hours ago, InBrightestDay said:

  I appreciate the reviews, but it’s not worth upsetting you.

 

catharsis takes many forms. I enjoy the story too much to stop now.

That’d be a thousand times worse than taking a bookmark out and promptly reading the last page of a book and declaring you’ve finished the story. 

 tsuj hctaw  ruoy knird rof ehs yam ton be eb a dneirf

[JayDee]

10 hours ago, InBrightestDay said:

Oh, and “subtlety is overrated” is basically Eparlegna summing up his own character.  When you’ve built yourself a throne made of human bones, subtlety has officially gone out the window.

He does have a twisted sense of humor so there’s a fair chance it was built out of the bones of employees of a popular Ready-to-assemble furniture vendor.

He may have enjoyed the meatballs.

 

[InBrightestDay]

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Thundercloud

I really like chapter 4 of the story that delivered a good build up for the coming battle.

Thank you!  I always feel so bad when I make stupid mistakes (and you found another one further down), so I’m happy to know you’re still enjoying the story in spite of my screwups.

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The scene with the birds is well done and makes me realize there probably will be a confrontation much more early than I anticipated.

There are two confrontations in the story, the climactic one in Part Nine and this one.  As you might expect, this one isn’t going to go terribly well.

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The follow up scene at PPD confirms it but honestly Eparlegna comes accross more like a Buffy villain named The Judge than an dangerous evil mastermind.

While I wasn’t referencing the Judge specifically, you’re not that far off.  Eparlegna is highly confident because he was able to overpower just about everyone 75 years earlier (like in the San Francisco footage).  Like the Judge, it hasn’t really sunk in how humanity has advanced, and he is being somewhat arrogant.

Having said that, he’s not about to get blown up with a rocket launcher.  Enchanted bullets can wound him, but they still can’t kill him.  Granted, this is a step up, since 75 years earlier they would just have bounced off him, but there are still limits to what human weapons can accomplish.

Furthermore, his attack on the App Theo building is not without purpose, which will come up later.

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I really dig the way you use the lecture scene with the video clip to do lots of subtle info dumping on the reader. The description of the hellfire is one of the best ones I have scene.

Thanks!  I really wanted to show what Eparlegna hints at in Whore of Heaven, namely a battle between human forces and, as he describes his new body, “an unstoppable force of Hell”, so we get to see human soldiers trying and failing to damage him with normal ammunition and even missiles, and the destructive power of the dragon’s hellfire breath, almost like a nuclear weapon (slower moving, though).

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The final battle scene is pretty cool, even if I think the way Luzurial catch of the car is a bit too much superman style of superheroics. If you are superman it is just a regular feat to miraculously catch a flying car and throw it back towards the enemy, but for ordinary super heroes the level of strength have difficult to compensate for the fact that you will slide backwards if hit by object with large momentum and not have a matching foot holding. The classic super hero scene is the super hero being pushed backwards, but still standing with the car in his hands afterwards.

What I was going for here was that the car is mostly coming down toward her, so its momentum is primarily directed through Luzurial and into the ground.  In addition, the crumpling of the car’s roof absorbs some of the energy.  All in all, she probably slid back about a meter, but not enough that I wanted to really point it out.

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A final thought...Kevin and Abdul must be incredible dense. They have just seen a weakened archangel throw cars around and being immune to ordinary bullets and still think it is a good idea to go after the being that trapped her in the statue with just ordinary bullets.

You know, some day I’m going to put a chapter up and it’s not going to contain a single stupid mistake.  BUT TODAY IS NOT THAT DAY!

So, there are two reasons for Kevin taking normal ammo in that scene.  The first is the out-of-universe reason, namely that those bullets will, at the end of Part Five, be inscribed to be anti-demon rounds, so they needed to be “blank” for that (I suppose you could write over one inscription with another, but that would be a rather messy and difficult process).

The second reason, though, the in-universe reason, is that Kevin wasn’t planning to try to shoot Eparlegna with those bullets, but was instead thinking there might be more cultists inside, so he wanted to be able to shoot them.  And of course I didn’t make that clear, because in spite of my best efforts, I am a mediocre writer.  That mistake will be fixed come morning (with credit to you in the Author’s Note).

Edited February 13, 2019 by InBrightestDay