Community Discussion Requested

[Guest Jaxxy]

Here is a letter that came in the

TOS_team

email today -- where people regularly report Trolls, "Underagers", and Plagiarists... mostly.

I searched for slash and this came up. I haven't read it but the summary said 8 yr old.

I am all for sexual expression (otherwise I wouldn't be here) but pedophilia is not sexual expression it is every shade of wrong and cannot be permitted.

I am reporting it to you first. Depending on your reaction, I will decide whether or not to report it further to the relevant authorities watching for pedophilia on the internet.

http://original.adult-fanfiction.org/story.php?no=600097659

I have no issue with the people who run this site, but due vigilance in regards to pedophilic stories is necessary.

Many thanks

(Name Omitted)

I would very much value the community's input here.

I have, for very nearly three years, been a-or-the legally responsible party for AdultFanFiction.net. However, I am not so because I have all the answers.

I do what I do because I believe (amongst softer things) in preserving this historical archive; nurturing creativity; promoting tolerance; making healthy, contemporary use of

everyone's

right to freedom of expression; demonstrating the time-old "fair use"; and, also because someone -- someone who understands the spirit of AFF, is crazy enough to stand for it, and yet, is sane enough to

think

-- has to. If not any of those, well, my name was pulled out of the hat, and it is what it is.

Besides, you guys are simply too irresistible to

not

protect with my life! Such

faces

.

I speak with levity because this is also what I do -- but I am

not at all

complacent about this.

Do I begin deleting every story that involves

FICTIONAL

characters under the age of 18 in adult situations? Or just those in which the

FICTIONAL

character in question is pre-pubescent (which is something we've never done, and, at best, is a

very

slippery slope)? I am to protect AFF, first and foremost -- is deleting a healthy fraction of this history book really protection? And what of its spirit: Exercising our freedom to be who we are, do what we love, and share it in a safe, unobtrusive, self-supporting, adult-only environment?

Some preliminary research I've done (and have done before, but did again, for this case) seems to confirm that this issue is, legally, still quite on the fence. Here's something interesting to examine; perhaps it isn't too ill-known of a concept to you, but just in case it is, here's an excerpt from

one article

:

Courts now use the "Miller Test" to determine whether material is obscene. A benchmark 1973 Supreme Court ruling issued in the case of Miller v. California set new standards and attempted to clarify what is and isn't legally obscene.

[...] a jury would have to find:

• the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would find the work as a whole appeals to prurient interest;
  
  
• the descriptions of sexual conduct are patently offensive;
  
  
• the work as a whole lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value.
  
  

Now, for

years

, I've been holding tight, often with my eyes screwed shut, to this thing, this thing where I believe -- where I understand, the great majority of

this community believes

-- that if we called this type of story "child pornography", we'd have to say the same of much, much more. Where would it

stop?

That's just what we've said every time this sort of letter has come in the past; I have always respectfully (and sometimes, depending on the specifics, even regretfully) said that there was no technical illegality here, and that a story, or lot of them, would have to stay.

But

this

person seems... possibly powerful, and

incredibly

closed-off. Their letter feels different than the notes I've gotten before; it gives me a chill. (

Please

feel free to assure me if I am being an alarmist. No, really.)

Sighingly enough, my feeling remains that we do not have to respect

or

enjoy

or

take part in someone else's "thing", but we

do

have to respect their right to do it, lest we

all

lose our rights -- so long as it harms none (or is this last phrase the qualifier in question...still?

again?

). I have understood that this concept is what I have been -- anxiously, but

passionately

-- taking a stand for, for a very long time, on behalf of myself and of the millions and millions of us that comprise the adult fiction communities.

But, if the community feels I should give in on one of these fronts, it is probable that I should. I did not come here to broadcast

my

beliefs across the globe -- it's an "us". And, as I said earlier on... I really,

really

do

not

have all of the answers. Which ones do you have, community, to help me and you and... damn,

the world?

The person who has written me today seems to be something of a figure in the literature world, though I cannot yet tell of what particular importance -- and, it appears that I have been threatened with legal action. Am I alone in this quandary? What

does

the community say?

I can't thank you enough for your help here... I'm just a girl at a keyboard, too. Just one.

[DarkInuLord]

I only read about half of your post because I was just about to go to bed but;

Deleting all stories with characters under the age of 18 would remove a vast majority of some anime fandoms (E.G. Inuyasha wherein the main female character is 16 in the show, and is written as a 16 year old in most non-alternate universe stories)

I don't see a problem with writing about under age people, it's better than actually doing it, and hey, if they're doing it because they actually want to do things to kids, it's better they write and get it all out, isn't it? But hey, that's their problem, and none of us should just assume that every person who writes about under age people wants to molest little boys.

Hell, I find beastiality fucked up, and it's illegal in most places, but does that mean that you need to go through and delete every story you find involving intercourse with animals?

SPEAKING of animals, here comes my cat telling me it's time to sleep.

Goodnight.

[Guest Agaib]

This does seem most inauspicious. I personally don't believe that you should respond to this kind of threatening. Though its hard for me to ask you not to, as its your neck on the line here and not Mine. For that reason I could never ask you to sacrifice yourself in defense of this website. If I were in your situation, however, I would want to stand by principle and fight any legal action. Do you have a lawyer you can consult about these things?

In any case, it starts with book burning but pretty soon you end up with thought crimes. Sure it might be obscene, but what is "material." Papers with symbols on them? Electronic Data? Mental Data? Where do you draw the line?

As a side note, I personally thought that you got letters like this all the time. What makes you suspect this is someone important?

Also, you should probably move this topic to a category with more traffic, I think the entire community deserves to see this.

[JayDee]

I don't write kiddy stories, I don't read 'em (although, age of consent is 16 in my country.) However, I would find it very hard to believe that "the authorities" aren't already aware of a site as large as this one, and would assume the issues they face with successful prosecutions against fiction in the states would be why nothing has happened after years of active status. Also, statistically it's far more likely that dozens of people who don't like slash or whatever have been trying to get the place shut down with whatever claim they can for years. The fact that the webhost is able to run the site without any terms of service violation is surely evidence enough that the site is legal? S'not like you're on some hacked illegal server somewhere.

They'll be complaining about the homosexuals next.

It reads like a troll to me, ability to spell be damned, a "I don't like this writer so I'm going to try and have them deleted" troll. The whole "Just found it through searching" thing doesn't have to be true. Have you tried googling their email address? See if they've any record of trolling anywhere and silly enough to use the same addy all over?

Also, as DarkInuLord says there's no reason that just because a story features something unpleasant the writer wants to do it. Otherwise, Stephen King would be shot on sight entering Maine.

[Entrisic]

Either way you go (stand ground or decide to set some sort of minimum age) I will support. Either option could bring forth unpleasant consequences and the target will be on your back. I have nothing helpful to say except to agree with the others, you should see if this 'concerned person' is legit before setting anything into motion.

[hanyou-elf]

while it seems that you've managed to get an intelligent threatening letter, it still would prove to be vastly time consuming for the person to pursue something like this. this is, for all intents and purposes, an adult site where adults can gather and share their writings, regardless of whether they offend somebody or not.

true, pedophilia in any form is a squick of mine. it does nothing for me, but some people happen to find the emotional ramifications of those kinds of stories to be incredible. and yes, some people write it purely for the shock value, but some people actually do it to find a way to explore what actually happens.

the tos say that you won't write anything involving real characters under the age of 18. this story, as disturbing as it may be, is about an original character. it doesn't involve the child next door and what his daddy does to him. it's a fictional invention of the author and an opportunity for her to express herself, however she sees fit. she has all of the proper alerts and warnings and codes on the story, so she really doesn't violate any of the things that she agreed to when she signed up.

and if you were going to remove the stories that do deal with main characters under the age of 18, you would have to remove the majority of the fandoms available here. starting with naruto, final fantasy, the gundams, inuyasha, harry potter, fullmetal alchemist, bleach, loveless, avatar, teen titans, etc., as a majority of published materials deals with children in the main characters- focusing on younger and younger audiences.

and then, because that is a personal opinion in regards to the nature of fiction as it was presented, you would need to remove everything that offends other people. and that would take away from the slash, the fem-slash, bestiality, and threesomes. because to somebody somewhere that's an offensive topic. if you were to bow to everyone who expressed a distaste for stories that involved things they didn't like, there would really be nothing here. no one agrees completely with the next person about what is a good story- sexual or not.

the first amendment states that a person has the freedom to express themselves as long as it doesn't harm another person. yelling fire in a crowded movie theater is bad because you can hurt people. writing a story that involves a child is not bad because you aren't doing anything. as i understand most writing to occur, you don't actively write with another person egging you on.

besides, the person who wrote you as a member of the community agreed to the tos and what they entailed. including:

By using AdultFanFiction.net, I am demonstrating my beliefs that the material it exhibits is not obscene, fundamentally offensive, or in violation of any other person's rights.

by being a member of this site, s/he as agreed that people will write what they want to write, and as a member of this adult site, it will not be seen as obscene and that they are entitled to write what they want.

every person has their own idea of what is acceptable and what isn't. this person finds that stories with a minor isn't good, in their own opinion. and that's what it all really boils down to. it's an opinion of this person. and kudos to him/her for expressing his/her opinion, but it can't be allowed to influence the entire site.

i write stories that involve children in sexual situations, and i don't regret it. and i won't apologize for it either. this is an adult site where i am allowed to express myself however i see fit. if i wanted more restrictions on my stories, i would look into other sites that offered limits.

so, don't give in. it's not going to do much but agitate other writers.

[Keith Inc.]

Huh. Would it make the decision easier if it said:

I searched for slash and this came up. I haven't read it but the summary said M/M.

I am all for sexual expression (otherwise I wouldn't be here) but homosexuality is not sexual expression it is every shade of wrong and cannot be permitted.

Or

I searched for slash and this came up. I haven't read it but the summary said M/F/F.

I am all for sexual expression ...but promiscuity is not sexual expression it is every shade of wrong and cannot ....

I searched for slash and this came up. I haven't read it but the summary said marital aids.

I am all for s...but dildo usage is not sexual expression it is every shade of wrong ....

This is text. This is fiction. No one's getting hurt. This not pedophilia. No child need get naked or victimized for the story to be written. That is not the same as photographs or movies of children involved in whoopie smoochies. If the person writing this cannot see the difference, then refund their entry fee. Point out that they did see the warning in the summary and they didn't read the story and were not subject to being squicked.

There are a LOT of things on AFF that i find personally squicky. But the only way anyone gets hurt is if i read it and suffer being squicked.

Then again, a whole freaking swath of what i WRITE is squicky, to someone or other. Even the consensual PWP, as there are womyn that say sex is slavery...

I searched for slash and this came up. I haven't read it but the summary said M/F.

I am all for feminist sexual expression but heterosexual intercourse is not sexual expression, it is socially sanctioned rape and cannot be permitted.

...so if we're going to remove things because someone finds it offensive, the whole site is going to be reduced to PC humor lists.

When, and if, the critics actually prove that reading pedo-friendly stories will cause pedo's to commit crimes that they would not have otherwise, then i will be up in arms to drive all underage stories off of the site. Generally, though, most claims that sex stories lead directly to sex crimes are kind of under-evidenced and massively over-emotionalized because they don't stand up to rational scrutiny.

[Guest Jaxxy]

If I were in your situation, however, I would want to stand by principle and fight any legal action. Do you have a lawyer you can consult about these things?

In any case, it starts with book burning but pretty soon you end up with thought crimes. Sure it might be obscene, but what is "material." Papers with symbols on them? Electronic Data? Mental Data? Where do you draw the line?

As a side note, I personally thought that you got letters like this all the time. What makes you suspect this is someone important?

Also, you should probably move this topic to a category with more traffic, I think the entire community deserves to see this.

I have no intention of doing anything other than standing by AFF's principles... that's what I've hoped to do by being its responsible party. I truly believe we are doing nothing wrong... and much right. Growlingly. But that doesn't mean I'm not tense about it -- anyone who cares about this would be -- or that I can do it alone.

Completely agreed re: Book Burnings and Thought Police... ffs, America was founded by such "crazy rebels" as we apparently are... and this thinking being restricted to America is bad enough. Restricted in America? Not so fast, buddy. Slippery slopes slide in all directions.

No, actually, this kind of letter is seen only a double-handful of times a year; the majority of Users (of which this person claims to be a part) "get" what AFF's here for. It is the place for this... because no other really-out-there archive takes the risk (understandably so). But these are our birthrights, and if we don't exercise them -- for everyone -- they'll atrophy. (It's so odd to me that people don't get that, in insisting on protecting the rights of a seemingly frivolous hobby-site, we are also protecting the rights of our detractors... the self-same rights that allow the conservative groups that oppose us to continue to exist.)

Anyway, sorry; this person seems to be important-ish based on searching the Internet for their email address -- this person's a member of some literary organizations (poetry?) who's been in newsletters for such, too. Conveniently enough, the email address -- and the name indicated within the email itself -- are, neither one, in our databases.

I just don't know how rich she (may as well give in to the pronoun) is, or how far her connections go. Most who complain like this are i) Reasonable-with, asking questions, even if passionately; and ii) "Just folks" like us, not so restrictive about what is supposed to be art.

A lawyer; there's the rub. I'm a poor woman over here. I've asked for community help in retaining one for us many times (in fact, as recently as last week's Site News/broadcast email to Forumites), but the response has been low to nil. This is one of the reasons I am coming to you this way.

This Topic area seems to see decent traffic -- but let me see about that suggestion of moving -- and/or, perhaps Forumites could direct their friends' attention to this Topic, as it does belong in the Legal Discussions area.

Good ideas, good observations, thanks.

[Guest Jaxxy]

Either way you go (stand ground or decide to set some sort of minimum age) I will support. Either option could bring forth unpleasant consequences and the target will be on your back. I have nothing helpful to say except to agree with the others, you should see if this 'concerned person' is legit before setting anything into motion.

My primary reason for coming here like this (as I obviously usually don't) is to see what kind of support there is for AFF, and well, by association (only!), me... so what you have said is invaluable. And definitely, I'm still cramming to see who this person is.

I am considering drawing up some sort of cyber-petition, to nip these kinds of things in the bud once and for all -- I can only hope that it would be responded to by those of you who really see what's trying to go on here. Any thoughts here, anyone?

(I'm very sorry I'm not replying to each post -- every one I've seen so far is really on-the-nose, and unspeakably appreciated -- but I want to be sure this thread stays readable.)

[Guest Jaxxy]

while it seems that you've managed to get an intelligent threatening letter, it still would prove to be vastly time consuming for the person to pursue something like this.

Vastly Time Consuming -- Yes, and I hope it is a strong enough deterrant. It would be very time consuming for me, too. I feel a bit emotionally blackmailed by the author of this email; it is probably obvious that AFF is excruciatingly un-rich, and this would be pricey, too.

she really doesn't violate any of the things that she agreed to when she signed up.

Violation by Author -- Exactly. I find no fault with this person. Even the Story's Reviewers are accepting. That's why I went ahead and showed the Story link, "exposing" the Author -- because I am in support of her, and feel we all are. I mean her no disrespect or harm, and wish her quite the opposite. She's sort of a benchmark case (chosen by someone else, in fact), and I sincerely hope that if she sees this Topic, she is understanding-to-proud.

It could be seen that it is the Author's "trespass", not any website's, at hand. Funnily, I could see her being called out legally, and this website being an entity that takes her part. Ah, perspective...

The arguments that this woman's letter is harassment (pointed out to me in PM/IM), and that she is in violation (of the TOS she agreed to), are very interesting, and probably ways to go. However, the question likely to be raised is if our TOS is in violation of children's (or gay people's, or straight people's -- people's) rights.

if you were to bow to everyone who expressed a distaste for stories that involved things they didn't like, there would really be nothing here. no one agrees completely with the next person about what is a good story- sexual or not.

Sexual or Not -- (off-topically enough? eek) THANK you! The way I've always thought about it? This is not an "adult" website in the conventionally understood way at all. It is "adult" because it is for adults... whose thoughts (naturally!), sometimes, happen to include sexuality, as any grown non-asexual organism's do. And, seeing as society forces us to speak of this natural thing behind closed (and locked, and barricaded) doors, we do it here (isn't that enough?). The whole dynamic of which, in (stomach-)turn, makes us look like a "porn" site.

Bowing Down -- Cuss, no. This is the place for this thing, Self-Expression, that should be something people do not have to fear, anywhere. If we did, the ensuing snowball would be tragic. AFF's just got to help the people... so few do. I took on the responsibility for this thing, but/and I am mostly of the mind that, if it came down to a matter of "me or AFF"... AFF would stay, and I'd be the one that'd have to go. I feel I'd be responsible to give the place over to some entity that would stand up for it.

yelling fire in a crowded movie theater is bad because you can hurt people. writing a story that involves a child is not bad because you aren't doing anything.

Fire -- I love that analogy! I may need to borrow it. Would that be "fair use", or will I see you in court as well?

if i wanted more restrictions on my stories, i would look into other sites that offered limits.

Other Sites -- Surely! AFF isn't popular because of its outstanding graphics and lightning-fast uploads. AFF is to be taken seriously because of its political importance (though I did start as a fangirl... what has become of me?!). There is a multitude of other sites for people with other tastes (and politics) -- more specific Fandom, no-yaoi, quality control, and what have you. We certainly do not boast of being the ultimate all-around archive, but the things that make us "us" are... just that.

so, don't give in. it's not going to do much but agitate other writers.

Giving In -- It does seem a "damned if we do, damned if we don't" situation... but it shouldn't be. I mean, seriously! Why the hell should we be damned for talking about what we like amongst ourselves, without pushing anyone into looking at anything they dislike?

I will do everything I can to absolutely stand our ground. Seeing all of you come out like this, it's priceless to me, and strengthens me... thank you. I really hope more "come out" like this, and are starting to see the need for this site's support -- financially, yes, but also in speaking out for it. I am clearly not the only one who feels we would be more damned if we don't.

(Gee whiz, I meander... I apologize, I'm just all over the place about this today.)

[Guest Jaxxy]

[...] When, and if, the critics actually prove that reading pedo-friendly stories will cause pedo's to commit crimes that they would not have otherwise, then i will be up in arms to drive all underage stories off of the site. Generally, though, most claims that sex stories lead directly to sex crimes are kind of under-evidenced and massively over-emotionalized because they don't stand up to rational scrutiny.

I... I loved this, this whole post.

You guys are really clearing my head (I guess it's easy to get whelmed, under- and over-, when it kind of all falls on you)... I hardly know what else to say. Just keep the voices moving, please, for all of our sakes.

What a relief and a joy it truly is to have such thinking and caring people to share the cause with, all of you that've posted. I have so, so much to say, but I do try to keep it short...

[foeofthelance]

I don't exactly see what case could be made, though I guess they could give it a try. What it would probably come down to is this: Does the general community of AFF goers hold this to be true? The website, public access as it might be, isn't a public entity; it doesn't exist inside any normal city or state boundaries, and can only be accessed by those who are wishing to come here; there are plenty of warnings concering content and the site deliberately limits access, requiring an identification of legal standing in order to enter. Therefore, we comprise an electronic community independent of any other.

So in order for the story to be considered obscene, you would have to prove that the majority of us see it that way. And as plenty of folks have already pointed out, while it might not be to their personal taste they don't consider it to be obscene. Considering there are in things in printed, dead-tree books that are equally as bad or worse, I think we're rather safe. Either way, got my support!

[DemonGoddess]

What the hell. May as well add my thoughts to this.

First of all, while there is much that has been added to the archive that I personally would never read, for my to demand it's removal would be childish at best, and certainly not in agreement with what I clicked to agree to when I signed up in the fiction portal. If I don't like a subject matter, I don't read it. It really IS that simple for me.

Secondly, you've put me in a position of authority where in the process of cleaning up the archive, I do indeed have the ability to remove stuff at will. I've not done that, nor will I, regardless of whether or not I like the subject matter. If I were exercising what my opinions dictate to me, on the basis of QC ALONE there is much I would've deleted by now. That's not even getting into likes/dislikes of subject matter and deleting for that reason.

I agree with everyone else. Don't bow down to the attempt at intimidation.

[Keith Inc.]

I agree with everyone else. Don't bow down to the attempt at intimidation.

Exactly. If they have a legal leg to stand on, it will become apparent pretty quickly.

[Guest Jaxxy]

Exactly. If they have a legal leg to stand on, it will become apparent pretty quickly.

I don't want to be too confrontational; I'm just trying to protect everything... human rights

and

this archive (one by way of the other, really). With four dollars, from my chair!

I'm rather wary to reply to the email at all, though I have dozens of replies in mind, and it

is

probable that I need to take this window to steer the dialogue. (I wish I could just speak, and not be part of some cosmic game of chess... it makes me feel like a politician.)

Really, I've mostly been studying, and soaking everything in that you guys've posted -- during a re-read of it, I saw this Topic was closed. So, I wanted to say that it is again opened, and was closed in error. Perhaps I slipped; it's more than possible, with how distracted I've been.

Soooo sorry, so, continue, please!

[Kanashii]

Jaxxy:

First, I am sorry you got this kind of letter. I could see why it would rattle you. That being said, here is my humble opinion (as others have stated as well)...

This whole censorship is a very slippery slope indeed. If, hypothetically we ban minor, FICTICIOUS stories, then would we also have to ban fanfic stories (Harry Potter, Anime, etc) because the characters are "minors"?

Granted, the whole pedaphile thing is a major turn off for me, and I have no interest in reading or writing it. But, if we go down a slippery slope we begin to endanger ALL of what AFF has come to stand for. As an example, some people have written stories or journals detailing drug use, rape or extreme graphic violence. (I myself write many stories dealing with extremely graphical violence). So, does this mean that ANY "illegal activity" (rape, drugs, violence) that is strictly ficticious is now banned? Do we (as a society) begin to ban AUTHORS who write fictional stories with rape, murder, alcoholism or drug use?

I agree with Joe, some people write this stuff (Pedaphile) because I think for the shock value, maybe to even see if they can GET "negative reviews". To some people even BAD attention is attention and they thrive on it.

My only suggestion (in this law suit happy time we live in) is that you might check with the lawyer who used to help our AFF, and that anyone who wants to write a story with pedaphile activity in it post an additional disclaimer that the story is TOTAL fictional, and involves no real minors. (You know, how most fictional stories have that cute little disclaimer on the front that reads: "This story is a work of fiction and bears no resemblence to any persons living or dead", kind of thing.

What else can you do, logically? (and that is doing a lot) I only suggest this, if indeed you truly feel that this person is someone who can do something, and/or can cause trouble. Perhaps when people post their story, one of the codes they must click is if there is any characters under 16, and then that disclaimer will automatically "pop up" on their story.

Personally, I wouldn't not do anything to worry yourself. The main site already has a large "legalese" section that you musc "electronically sign" stating you (the reader) are 18, and that you are not offended by pornography, and understand you are reading stories on an "adult site". Believe me, honestly, there are really sites out there that push the borderline of child pornography, (IE: Adult picture sites that claim there models are "hot horny teens" or underage), and those are actual photographs, not fictional stories.

There are many classic examples of literature where there is underage characters engaging in sex with adults or each other.

Now, before people get too crazed, please realize that Jaxxy asked this, because here in the USA, it is a lawsuit crazy, media paranoid society. Sad, but true. In many countries and places in the world, people/the law/the media would not even waste time with a bunch of "amature authors writing fanfiction", however, there is always someone, who wants to "rock the boat".

Personally, Jaxx, I don't think your letter writer has a leg to stand on. Honest. I would ignore it. I think they are just trying to draw you into something or rattle your chain. LAWFULLY, there is nothing the law can do to this site, or you personally, that has people portraying either fictional characters or, writing personal journals of their own lives. Sure, some conserative groups can boycott, or raise a stink, or what not. But legally, you are in the clear, as long as it is posted (somewhere on this site- and I know it is) that these stories/journals are not "endorsed" by any entity, and are pure fictional works, with no resemblances to any persons living or dead.

(((Warm hugs))) and hang in there.

Warmly,

Kanashii

[Guest Agaib]

If I understand correctly, how the miller test applies to web based content isn't entirely wholly understood. Part of the problem is that I don't think that obscene material is illegal unless it has crossed over state lines. Otherwise, it has to be outright malicious speech (something that will harm someone) rather than be something shocking. So does internet content cross state lines? From the way I see it, the only thing crossing state lines is electronic signals. Furthermore, those electronic signals are not sent together as a single entity. Its sent in many packets. Is it illegal to transport wooden blocks over state lines because they might be assembled to resemble a penis?

I like the idea of defining AFF as not a collection of entities, but a single entity with many parts. Thus, rather than looking at a single story and deciding if it is "obscene" they would have to look at AFF as a whole in order to decide if it is "obscene." A metaphor might be used to argue that its like a gigantic canvas, upon which anyone can draw. There might be a single person who has the power to snip away portions of the drawing if it violates some of the rules that the contributors have been given, but could someone really argue that such a thing would have no artistic value just because a few of the contributors only draw in crayon and don't make it look as "artsy?" In order to be considered obscene in the miller test, the offending work must fail the SLAPS test. Which means that they would have to argue that AFF had no literary, artistic, political, or scientific value. Could someone really say that AFF as a "grand painting" had no literary value?

Unfortunately I'm not a lawyer, so theres a good chance that what I just said would sound stupid as shit in front of a real judge.

[Guest Jaxxy]

Personally, Jaxx, I don't think your letter writer has a leg to stand on. Honest. I would ignore it. I think they are just trying to draw you into something or rattle your chain. LAWFULLY, there is nothing the law can do to this site, or you personally, that has people portraying either fictional characters or, writing personal journals of their own lives. Sure, some conserative groups can boycott, or raise a stink, or what not. But legally, you are in the clear, as long as it is posted (somewhere on this site- and I know it is) that these stories/journals are not "endorsed" by any entity, and are pure fictional works, with no resemblances to any persons living or dead.

(((Warm hugs))) and hang in there.

Warmly,

Kanashii

Very kind post, Kanashii... it made me feel very supported (an actual hug!

). And, you've added to the count of opinions that I ignore the letter -- none, so far, for the opposite.

I am of this thought too, even on my own, because... there's nothing I could say to this person (judging by the closed-off, threatening tone) to make them see what we're really about, here. I guess I may as well not dance then, huh?

I hope you're right in that they can't just threaten the server hosts into yanking the site "off the air". I must say here, though, that there is no "old lawyer that AFF used to have" to talk to... we never had one.

Incidentally, I also like the idea of not answering this letter because I powerfully dislike being ingenuine... and my

genuine

reaction to her letter would be, "Why are you picking on us?"... but far longer.

[Kanashii]

Very kind post, Kanashii...

I hope you're right in that they can't just threaten the server hosts into yanking the site "off the air". I must say here, though, that there is no "old lawyer that AFF used to have" to talk to... we never had one.

Incidentally, I also like the idea of not answering this letter because I powerfully dislike being ingenuine... and my

genuine

reaction to her letter would be, "Why are you picking on us?"... but far longer.

Nah, I wouldn't dance with them Jaxx...Let them drift off. As to the lawyer, I was thinking years ago (back when the forums used to be on Yahoo, and they reformed and reformatted AFF, with that "electronic signature") that y'all had hired a lawyer who specialized in such forms and had worked with other adult sites who had drafted the main sign in page? No-yes?

Either way, as I re-read the main page and disclaimers, it really looks like you have all your ducks in a row. Again, IF this person were to actually do something, all you would need to have the Techies do, is add another disclaimer (that pops up on each story, under the authors disclaimer) that says something to the effect of : AFF assumes no responsibilty for content and that these are works of creative fiction... Blah, blah, etc.

Hang in there, I am kinda surprised that you have not recieved MORE wicked email... ("How DARE you have Harry Potter characters DOING IT... with their teachers! I'm telling JK ROwling!" or "How Dare you have Inushya doing it with a Transformer Robot! I'm complaining!" or..."How dare you have that crazy author Kanashii writing about the Mafia...I'm in the Mafia and we are whacking her damnit!")

You and the others have been doing GREAT with this site, and it is my one refuge to come and enjoy things. Considering the sheer volume of hits, readers and people posting (AND the hard working Mods who take the time to sift through dead stories or spam links)...Whew! Take a deep breath and enjoy some tea or chocolate or whatever your favorite "poison" is.

AFF with weather this "eloquent and powerful sounding troll" as well.

Warmly,

Kanashii B)

[Guest Jaxxy]

In order to be considered obscene in the miller test, the offending work must fail the SLAPS test. Which means that they would have to argue that AFF had no literary, artistic, political, or scientific value. Could someone really say that AFF as a "grand painting" had no literary value?

Unfortunately I'm not a lawyer, so theres a good chance that what I just said would sound stupid as shit in front of a real judge.

I find your illustrations of this site very apt, and very deeply thought out -- your post was rather beautiful to me.

My

shit detector came up with no stupidity at all, anyway.

I have been eyeballing that Miller Test like a nutty, nutty nut, and I believe we certainly

do

have some literary/artistic value, if only in working to keep a good --

uncensored

-- history of this particular corner of the fan fiction fenomenon (sorry, had to). Won't future historians love that?

And, seriously, some of the writing here is shockingly good, absolutely "artistic" --

far

better than many things you can buy all paperbacked at the pharmacy.

On top of that, with the way we just went fairly batty over human rights? Well, now I'm

positive

we've quite a bit of political value; the community is obviously very serious about its place in the world. This is particularly why I wish for us to keep these voices going -- let's

show

them that AFF's preservation is an issue far greater than whether or not Pikachu can take it like a man.

Scientific -- do the constant reminders of the precise location of the "P" spot count? B)

[Keith Inc.]

I don't want to be too confrontational; I'm just trying to protect everything... human rights

and

this archive (one by way of the other, really). With four dollars, from my chair!

no, no, not saying to be confrontational.

Just not to give in to the sort of baseless intimidation in the email. Anyone can make threats like that, for a variety of what they find objectionable.

If there really is a legal leg to stand on, to support their side, then actual legal action would move it from intimidation to an action legal problem.

If anything, do not reply to the letter in the tone the letter has taken. 'Up Yours' would probably come back to bite you in the ass if this goes anywhere. Trying to explain your (our? Sanity's?) side would be a bit better, but i feel it would bounce off their armor.

I'd say that any response would be wrong, as in moving the conversation forward. it's a bad conversation. It's threats and closed-mindedness.

I actually think some of our posters here would agree with him to a certain extent, but most of the comments i've noted here on that subject at least seem to have the tone of 'in my opinion' rather than 'it cannot be gainsaid.'

Though if you must reply, i'd lean towards the form letter.

"Thank you for your email expressing your concerns for our site content. Your opinion is important to us. We are in the middle of an overhaul of your favorite incredibly smutty porn site right now, but rest assured that someone will be reviewing your concerns in the near future."

[Guest Jaxxy]

Nah, I wouldn't dance with them Jaxx...Let them drift off. As to the lawyer, I was thinking years ago (back when the forums used to be on Yahoo, and they reformed and reformatted AFF, with that "electronic signature") that y'all had hired a lawyer who specialized in such forms and had worked with other adult sites who had drafted the main sign in page? No-yes?

I don't want to dance... my foot hurts!

Well, Apollo and I did conspire quite a bit on how to get AFF a lawyer, and she was hitting the local streets for one back then (2005)... but, the money just wasn't there, and soon, she had to bow out as well. A bit later on, yes, we did buy this Age Verifier from a lawyer ($500.00?!) who said he/she'd be around for us. Thing is, it wasn't a retainer for "being AFF's lawyer" or anything, just a promise to advise if we had any legal concerns about the Verifier itself.

it really looks like you have all your ducks in a row. Again, IF this person were to actually do something, all you would need to have the Techies do, is add another disclaimer (that pops up on each story, under the authors disclaimer) that says something to the effect of : AFF assumes no responsibilty for content and that these are works of creative fiction... Blah, blah, etc. B)

I certainly tried to get those ducks to line up, but they can be mighty flappity -- if anyone sees a hole somewhere, I'd be more than glad to hear about it.

I actually posted to some other Moderators, just today, about the idea to have a sort of "bubble" around the whole site... hopefully just a simple, no-hassle one-page re-direct, that would show for anyone entering any AFF page. I'd hope to load it with yet more reminders about what people are just about to "get themselves into", but we're still seeing if that's feasible with the php (as it is -- it is "unique").

How dare you have that crazy author Kanashii writing about the Mafia...I'm in the Mafia and we are whacking her damnit!"

Let me just say: lmao. But really, we get enough letters like that... a dozen a year is enough (we're asking me, right?).

You and the others have been doing GREAT with this site, and it is my one refuge to come and enjoy things. Considering the sheer volume of hits, readers and people posting (AND the hard working Mods who take the time to sift through dead stories or spam links)...

I so understand that... that was my initial drive to help out at AFF, that it was my friend on those kinds of nights when I felt like I had no others. It's why I won't let go... it might've saved me. </TMI></drama>

I think I speak for us all when I say how very much your happiness with our work means to us (those people work like dogs) -- it is a bear (what an animal-y post!), but I'm pretty sure we just all really treasure it that much. We've got a whole lot of great plans for the place piled up, too... you happy is us happy, cause it's "we" happy.

[manta2g]

AFF was created as a protest against censorship, 2 cases trying to ban adult fictional works up here where I live both failed because they greatly infringed upon freedom of speech, this person I doubt has a leg to stand on.

[JacquesL]

O-kay.

I didn't want to comment here first, as most of the things that crossed my mind have already been said. But, hey, Jaxxy, I'm all behind you. We J people need to stick together. Moreover...

I'm letting down my pants here, in a manner of speaking. I do hope nobody will regard THAT as obscene.

I myself was exposed to a variety of abuse, as a child and as an... older child. This led to various consequences and lots of work for psychologists. B)

This said, I can assure you of one thing: Personally, I write that shit to get it out of my system. I need to do so, if I publish it or not, and I was glad to find people who like me to share what I write. I was overwhelmed at the reactions to some of my 'stronger' works by a public audience, especially where I had the (legally safe) chance to get my writing out in lectures. Had there been someone to sue me, I might have told him that he should first sue those who did it, not the author who writes it down, or invents similar happenings, or the like.

To quote a famous author (was it Wilde? Was it Byron? Forgot), "...if I don't write, I go mad."

Well yes, that's what I wanted to add. Thank you all. I love being here.

[Guest Jaxxy]

O-kay.

I didn't want to comment here first, as most of the things that crossed my mind have already been said. But, hey, Jaxxy, I'm all behind you. We J people need to stick together.

Testifah!

A, F, F, to the "J" to the... -cuts the crap-

Moreover...

I'm letting down my pants here, in a manner of speaking. I do hope nobody will regard THAT as obscene.

Hell, no! -wolf-whistles ensue from the manloving masses- B) -shuts IT-

I myself was exposed to a variety of abuse, as a child and as an... older child. This led to various consequences and lots of work for psychologists.

[...]To quote a famous author (was it Wilde? Was it Byron? Forgot), "...if I don't write, I go mad."

(First,

please

forgive the above humor if it was inappropriate! It is a habit with which I try to lighten my sadness for your, and my own, similar situation. If it had the opposite effect, and seems as if I do not respect the your trouble, I will edit it out. Just, please, understand that it is an indicator of how powerfully this has stricken me.)

Thank you, Jacques... I am painedly honored that you have shared this part of you with so many like this. It must be frightening, considering the nature of your past reception... this is brave. I pray that no one "kicks you while you're down", at least in these Fora (though I doubt they will; these seem "good people"), and that, instead, the readers realize you've done the world a tremendous service today.

What you've given us is a pricelessly important gift to AFF's cause -- a

real person

, standing up, "pants-down", as a living-breathing example of the

need

for ultimate freedom in fiction, so long as it does not impose upon any other living creature's safety or like liberties.

The mere

thought!

of any further stifling and complicating of your plight, and the plights of so many silent sufferers, is what makes me mad as a wet-fucking-

hen

about the idea -- no,

threat

-- of censorship. (Hence, my initial

inability

to reply to the writer of that email -- I was shaking with anger as I posted about it here.)

The slippery-slope-ness of censorship, and the other ideas we're discussing, are all crucial dynamics.

But

... on a personal (but certainly valid) level, I cannot bear the idea of living in a society which; first, denies people adequate recognition and acceptance for comfort or recovery; and, then, as a

chaser

, proceeds to deny them the benefit of seeking a non-judgmental vehicle with which to heal

themselves

.

How many souls have felt the need for suicide, rather than to face such ostracization alongside their grief? That is criminal --

absurd!

-- and I'm

so

sorry you were hurt at all, Jacques, by any of these things, let alone by those that have read your vulnarabilities. In Jaxxyland, such things -- the non-exploitative writing of "kiddie-porn" (sic) -- would be appreciated as free therapy.

I wish to outline the needfulness of Jacques's words for future reference. He has, at once, spoken out as:

• The child we are accused of injuring, who, to the contrary, we are fiercely protective of and/or empathizing with;
  and
  ,
  
  
• The adult in need of the panacea that AFF, and such institutions, are willing to give where society --
  the responsible party!
  -- very often withholds.
  
  

I think you may have just provided us with the final leg for our argument, Jaques -- that we also hold scientific value. AFF, among things of many levels of importance (and un-), is

medicine

. Still, I will not use you as an example without your blessing.