Plot Development

[GeorgeGlass]

I guess I don't see it that way. I've had readers that have been quite vocal about what they didn't like about some of my stories but it didn't change the course of the story I wrote. Hell I got a couple of threats on another site when I started posting a sequel to a story some people sort of liked when it went in a direction they didn't like. Though I do admit that some reader feedback on another story did help to make it better in that I continued for a couple extra chapters to make the ending more complete but it didn't change the story I wanted to write.

If I let the readers dictate what I wrote, all my stories would have one big guy, the dominant alpha male (most likely a werewolf because that's what readers want in the genre I write) and one smaller effeminate guy that the big guy wants but doesn't want him but he gets anyway because of the 'mate bond'. *shudders at the thought of attempting to write that story* I couldn't write a supernatural fic to save my life.

I just think when writers write to appease the readers, they can lose sight of what got them excited about writing the story in the first place. If I looked at hit counts, rates and reviews, I'd have quit posting after my first two stories (I'll smack anyone that tells me I should have taken the hint. ) and then FFH would never have seen the light of day on this site.

I didn't mean to say that I change my stories in midstream on the basis of reader feedback; I just consider said feedback when I think about future stories.

But yeah, if popularity were all I cared about, I'd write M/M Harry Potter and Naruto stories.

Your work pushes the envelope in some respects, and I did "poke" through quite a bit of it. I am still not convinced that I will find readers here, but your stories helped me to convince myself that I will not be shown the door for anything that I'm posting here. (Make of that what you will! )

When I first started posting here, I was quite worried about how readers would react to my rougher stuff, so I stuck with posting only stories that seemed relatively inoffensive. Then I read a post here in a forums about a story someone was looking for (and about which others seemed to be enthusiastic) that was so rapey and violent that I thought, "Wow, I guess people here are okay with that kind of thing." The most popular original story I've ever posted here ("Caitlyn's Punishment") was also one of the nastiest.

[Ariana_Pearce]

When I first started posting here, I was quite worried about how readers would react to my rougher stuff, so I stuck with posting only stories that seemed relatively inoffensive. Then I read a post here in a forums about a story someone was looking for (and about which others seemed to be enthusiastic) that was so rapey and violent that I thought, "Wow, I guess people here are okay with that kind of thing." The most popular original story I've ever posted here ("Caitlyn's Punishment") was also one of the nastiest.

People come here for the stories that you are posting, George.

Mine... perhaps not so much. I am new here, have not had the material up for very long, and won't rush to judgment, but it doesn't look as though there is much interest.

[Joe Long]

Hi Ariana, I was playing around with 'New Content' and decided to check the hit counter thread, as I'm kind of a technical guy. Don't worry that the topic has strayed, as I'm also quite interested in the new subject as well, and I've gotten to know most of the people who've replied.

Also, after reading a few posts on this thread, I realized you were the person who left the flattering review of my story - so thank you, I really did appreciate that someone likes it. My hits appear to be decent (at least they've read a paragraph or two) but I lacked reviews and comments on the forum page I created.

I started my story about a year ago on the blue site, back when it allowed under 18 (even if post-pubescent). I'd written a handful of stroke stories over the years and gotten a fair amount of hits at a site which seems to specialize in those. I migrated my reading to the blue site because it, at that time, allowed portrayals of teenage sex.

Last summer I was caught up in reading two long form serials that focused on teen romance, with enough sex thrown in. I was inspired to pull out a story idea that originally had two scenes (seduction and sex) and expand it to a full length novel. It was my first try at serious writing and was OK in quality. It got a decent amount of hits and even topped the ratings lists once or twice, but soon I was caught up in the troll wars and the age nazis.

I bailed and went over to storiesonline where I re-posted. One thing I do like about their ratings system is registered users get to vote a story from 1 to 10. 7 was my most common, then 8, 9 and 10, followed by 6 on down to 1. Meanwhile the two authors who had inspired me ended up here, so I checked it out.

Since last fall I'd also been reading some blogs about fiction writing and as I tried to finish my latest chapter became disillusioned. Without changing the story line (which I have outlined from start to finish), I went back to the beginning and focused on "showing, not telling." Vast amounts of words were re-written, and many scenes added to create back stories and subplots and foreshadowing. That's what I've posted here, "The Re-telling", and so far three redone chapters of about 25k words total are at this site.

I have two beta readers who haven't done a lot in the editing area, but who have been able to give good comments on the story line and have suggested a few items which in my opinion have strengthened the story.

In conclusion, yes I like to see the hits and ratings, if they're honest, to give me a sense of the quality of my work. It's a story I want to tell, but I want to be able to do it well. I'm still learning, and feedback greatly helps that.

Also, even though this is my only piece of serious fiction, I do also write non-fiction under my real name, and have found that my overall writing skills, along with my ability to form and organize my thoughts, has greatly increased over the year that I've been working on the fiction.

[Desiderius Price]

Be careful with showing, not telling, because even that can be taken to an extreme (and, it's also some fertile breeding ground for plot bunnies). I tend to prefer showing over telling, myself. And if it needs to be "told", it's generally better to have a couple of characters discussing it.

- DP

[Joe Long]

That was my technique. Instead of spending two paragraphs near the front having the narrator tell the reader what an s.o.b. his Dad was, I added two scenes of about 2500 words, first at dinner where the cousin could observe how Dad acts, then a reaction scene where the MC could tell his cousin about some of the issues in his life, including Dad.

And yes! That helps create plot bunnies. Drop lots of crumbs of back story and subplots and see where they go.

There's one subplot that I've decided I'll never resolve (and I won't tell you which one.) Every once in a while little hints and clues may be dropped in, other places stated more explicitly, but it will be left for the readers to ponder. It's fun that way.

[Desiderius Price]

And I'm writing another story to show a bit of the s.o.b aspect of the society that my characters hate.

[Ariana_Pearce]

It is easy, in a sex story, to lapse into telling. Much easier to rattle off age, bodily dimensions and endowments, than it is to reveal the characters through action and interaction. Easier to tell us that Buck has a ten inch dick than to show us his sweetheart's trepidation.

Showing takes time and effort.

If I go on, I'll start talking about my own books. I don't want to do that.

One thing, though: when showing the action, it is also essential to show the reader what the character is thinking about the events that are occurring. Beginning writers often take the easy route by using first person narration from the point of view of the main character. When done badly, first person narration locks the perspective to one point of view, and all of the other characters begin to resemble cardboard props on a stage. First person mode developed into a fad with the popularity of the Twilight series, and now it is prevalent. Trouble is, it is done badly. Stephenie Meyer was competent at first person narration, but even she had to break out of its constraints in order to finish Twilight. (That is why the last book is broken into parts, one of which is narrated by Jacob.)

Third person omniscient is a much easier route to putting the reader into the heads of the cast, because there is no constraint as to perspective.

That said, a skilled author can narrate effectively and empathetically in any mode. Perspective is just one means of achieving it. Lexicon also matters. Choose words that your characters are likely to use. Not only in dialogue, but also when you are describing their actions. Same for sentence structure. Modulate sentence complexity and sentence length from character to character. Avoid dialogue asides. This means using characters' dialogue to explain something to the reader, which the characters in the story would already know. Two ninjas in the middle of a battle to the death should not be explaining the benefits of cold-rolled steel! (This is done blatantly and badly in major bestsellers, so it is a pet peeve.)

Ugh. I feel like I'm preaching. Time to stop.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Ariana_Pearce

[Joe Long]

I don't mind preaching, that's part of how I learn.

Use the first person past tense POV, yes, the reader is seeing the story through only one person's eyes, and is not omniscient. The narrator might not know another person's thoughts until they're spoken, but the writer can us the narrative to describe the scene in such as way as to give clues. The body language, facial expression, how the words are spoken (soft, loud, public, private, etc) to show a lot of the emotion of the other character.

When I started writing my story last year I did it much as if I was sitting across the table from the readers, telling my story, and I write it as I remembered it. Reading back later I saw how it lacked detail and failed to foreshadow well enough. Joe and his dad will have a big fight later on, but other than two paragraphs in the first chapter, dad was rarely seen and had no voice. I went back to write dad into scenes, showing that he loved his son even while being hard on him and frequently being sarcastic. Then, when a big event happens later on what happens is in character and a logical progression.

I'll use an example to show how I changed how described a character.

This is Tweety Bird.” She had a little deeper voice, perhaps she was a smoker...

We were there in a flash. The three of us stood out in the dark alley, introducing ourselves and giving each other visual inspections. She did ask if we had any cigarettes, but neither of us smoked.

Her name was Julie, and she was actually fairly nice, about five-six, slender, nice boobs and a pleasant smile. The meet was going rather well when the night air was pierced with a loud cry.

“HEY! Get the hell out of here! Ain’t none a’yunz going to be fucking my little sister! Git, right now, before I call the cops on yunz.”

Instead of telling the reader, I switched to describing what the MC was seeing at the time, using many more visuals

In her little bit of a deeper voice she replied, "This is Tweety Bird."

We were there in a flash, and spotted the girl, maybe five-six, waiting under a street lamp. She was fairly nice, slender, perky boobs and a pleasant smile. When we got out she said, "Hi, I'm Julie - got any smokes?"

I looked at Dave then shook my head. "Sorry, no. I'm Joe. My handle's Spock - and this is my cousin Dave."

With long unkempt hair tossed over her shoulders, and wearing a Led Zeppelin t-shirt and a pair of jean shorts, she was leaning against a wall, one of her knees bent with that foot on the wall behind her. She was eying us up as well when she asked, "Yeah, I remember you - so how old are yunz guys?"

I said, "Nineteen, and he's seventeen. You're fourteen, right?"

Just then the night air was pierced with a loud cry, "HEY! Get the hell out of here! Ain't none a'yunz going to be fucking my little sister! Git, right now, before I call the cops on yunz."

Edited September 19, 2015 by Joe Long

[Ariana_Pearce]

Okay... ladies and gents: I'm still feeling my way around here, and I don't think any of you have read my story posts (maybe I'm wrong), so do you really think I'm qualified to be critiquing your writing samples? Ughh..... I know I'm going to regret this.......

If you want critique, read on... if not, stop right here, please!!!!

Joe, good rewrite. Superior description paints a more effective scene.

Whether you realize it or not, your very first sentence is stronger, for a reason that perhaps you do not realize. In the rewrite, you've cut the word, had.

By removing that word, you've imparted a double benefit on the sentence. You've eliminated two weak verbs: a conjugation of to have, and a conjugation of to be. (Notice that the word was is gone from your rewritten sentence as well.)

The verbs to have and to be are lazy verbs. When the writer lapses into using them, he/she loses opportunities to use stronger, more effective action verbs.

Weak: Tommy had a cold.

Better: Tommy coughed spittle into a wet rag.

Weak: Jane was in a hurry to get to the bus and almost missed her interview.

Better: Jane sprinted for the only opportunity to make her interview and caught the bus doors before they closed.

I play a game when I write: I look for ways to impart action in my narrative by looking for fresh action verbs. I try to write for as long as I can without using conjugations of to be ("is," "was,") and to have ("have," "had"). Like any such rule or guideline, it can be taken too far, but for beginning writers the exercise if done diligently necessarily leads to stronger narrative.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Ariana_Pearce

[Joe Long]

Interesting, I was not explicitly aware of that and will keep that in mind.

My purpose in the rewrite of that scene was to let the readers form an opinion of the type of girl Julie was from her age, appearance, posture, and manners. Joe's out cruising for action with his cousin, but the girls he meets aren't quite the type he normally spends his time with. It's based on an actual event, but thirty five years later I barely remember more than the two of us had met a girl on the CB and stopped in an alley to meet her when her sister yelled out almost those exact words to scare us off. The rest was filled in from my present day mind to tell the larger story.

English is our first language and we group up sometimes wondering why we have to take so many years of it in school. Taking time to write fiction, I have realized there are many different ways to say the same thing in a sentence, but only a few are brief in words and to the point. So that's one of my guidelines - be concise while still being descriptive. (And trying not to repeat words - I just took out 'my principles' in favor of 'my guidelines' because principles was used in the following sentence.) Still, many of these principles are implied by reading what others have written and thus seen the rules in use even if the reader is not specifically aware of the rule yet. I find that generally I was getting things correct, even if I didn't know why. It certainly helps to have a 'rule' explained.

And I confess that as soon as I saw your post the red letters drew my eyes and frightened me - I feared that I may have offended you until I read again from the very beginning.

This week I read both your stories posted here. I enjoyed both. I admired the quality of the prose, even if I noticed a larger number of 'literary' (fancy!) words. It was powerful at setting scenes. Even though I might have wondered about the premise of 'Concession' and whether it was correct to pine for one when married to another for so many years, I found myself in tears by the end. With 'Unlikely Antichrist', I found myself drawn into the story of Jessica and her mother, even if I had to go back to check the story description to see if it matched what I was reading. Then I recalled what you had said about a slow buildup to your stories, and longed for the next chapter to see how the story would get from where it was to where it was going.

[PervOtaku]

When I first started posting here, I was quite worried about how readers would react to my rougher stuff, so I stuck with posting only stories that seemed relatively inoffensive. Then I read a post here in a forums about a story someone was looking for (and about which others seemed to be enthusiastic) that was so rapey and violent that I thought, "Wow, I guess people here are okay with that kind of thing." The most popular original story I've ever posted here ("Caitlyn's Punishment") was also one of the nastiest.

Porn stories are a form of escapism, especially those that focus on fetishes that are a little more out there, or would be difficult to manage in real life. Rape and sexual violence stand out as something that is best enjoyed vicariously through fiction.

The interesting thing for me is, I don't have a rape fantasy fetish specifically, but women with a rape fantasy fetish fascinate me and I do rather enjoy assisting them with that.

[Joe Long]

Porn stories are a form of escapism, especially those that focus on fetishes that are a little more out there, or would be difficult to manage in real life. Rape and sexual violence stand out as something that is best enjoyed vicariously through fiction.

I've gotten some push back as my story deals with a 19 year old guy and a 13 year old girl, who is also his cousin, but as you say, it's escapism. This whole story of mine, which may end up 100k words by the time I'm done, started as a stroke story with it's seeds more than thirty years ago as I fantasized about how to seduce my cousin. There are plot points inspired by real events, but by now most of it is fiction.

One of my beta readers had suggested a subplot where a man in his late forties is ogling his step-daughter of a month or two. I just finished writing the first draft of the entire thread, which will pop up occasionally throughout the story. I don't want to spoil it, but I'll say it has an interesting ending, both sad and satisfying.