Enough is Enough!

[DemonGoddess]

As we've discussed here, the REASON reviewers of quality are scarce is because we feel the authors don't necessarily want to hear what we have to say.

[Kurahieiritr]

As we've discussed here, the REASON reviewers of quality are scarce is because we feel the authors don't necessarily want to hear what we have to say.

A: You hit the topic of this thread perfectly with your comment, DG. I created this thread as a place to allow anyone in need of a frustration venting place to discuss why they feel they were disrespected by authors. Some people are begging for good concrit reviews in a number of threads also, so perhaps giving concrit reviewers a place to vent is the starting point. Frustrated writers who want concrit reviews can also weigh on on this thread, and have been doing so.

Perhaps this thread will attract enough people who also wish to receive quality, concrit reviews over time. The two elements can then begin networking with respect for each other. I do not believe that this thread will solve the lack of reviews problem, yet it might help quality reviewers realize they still have a place in this site's review system. Everyone deserves to have a place where they are accepted, and that includes those who love to give quality reviews which can help writers actively seeking to improve their work enough feedback. My sole intent is to help each faction find their best suited fit here within AFFnet society.

The other side can create their own thread to discuss the kinds of reviews they want to their heart's content. I'm completely pro companion thread where the Diva types can feel at home also. Let them vent frustration about getting a quality review to their heart's content among their peers. Each side needs a place to feel welcomed and appreciated.

[GeorgeGlass]

Therefore, is it any surprise that talking about ideas that will provide future reviewers a sense of security through asking about creating an Author Promotion sector where we each have to list guidelines for our own reviews has begun in another thread? I know you've read that particular post, George. It is a sorry state when authors have to point out in detail which types of reviews are acceptable because of a group that has made many readers leery of posting any kind of reviews. I cannot see an Author Promotion addition changing this situation with reviews tapering off and even shutting down completely.

I tend to agree. Telling reviewers how to write their reviews will just turn them off even more.

[RogueMudblood]

I tend to agree. Telling reviewers how to write their reviews will just turn them off even more.

We shouldn't have to tell people that they need to be civil, or how to be civil for that matter, but we do have to tell them because that ability now evades the general internet denzien. If we didn't have to explain to people what courtesy was, then it wouldn't be an issue to begin with.

[Kurahieiritr]

We shouldn't have to tell people that they need to be civil, or how to be civil for that matter, but we do have to tell them because that ability now evades the general internet denzien. If we didn't have to explain to people what courtesy was, then it wouldn't be an issue to begin with.

A: I spent several days thinking about how tragic things have become, such as you noted, Rogue. Honestly, I have contemplated your input deeply. The reality that civility has become a lost art is something to be mourned. For all that we like to perceive ourselves as being civilized nations, one would think civility would be deeply ingrained in the masses by rote. Yet the opposite seems to be the truth. I've been asking myself if this is a case of rebellion against social values because the internet remains somehow anonymous? The anonymous nature of hiding behind a computer screen emboldens some people to act out poor behavior because they are not easily held accountable.

Thinking of it in this light, I wonder if there will ever be a happy medium discovered for the quality reviewers who often get frustrated and feel abused when they only seek to give advice, or helpful tips to aide fellow writers. Personally, I have not read anything in the archive of late because I dislike the high risk of trying to give a quality review backfiring yet again. Only writers that have retained any of my reviews are getting checked to see if they have added any updated stories/chapters and so forth.

Since thoughtful feedback is unwanted, trying to read anything in the archive suddenly feels downright stifling. In fact, I have skipped 3 reading days completely at this point. My once a week ritual is on hiatus. Since people do not seem sincere to me about the things they request, why should I bother to play into their trap is my feeling at this point. Has anyone else become so disenchanted with the whole disrespect for quality, concrit review techniques that they are no longer inclined to read other writers offerings?

[RogueMudblood]

When I started writing again (this time original fiction), I came across a story that the author swore up and down was a "thoughtful exploration of the relationship between a teacher and student". By the third chapter I was ready to gouge my eyes out from the angsty teenage cliche fest. In the review I explained (politely) that so far none of it came across as realistic and suggested that aside from developing the characters it would be worth doing some research on the psychology of the relevant relationship type. Not a day later I got an irate message back from the author, who claimed I was making personal attacks and assumptions. How they got that out of, "Someone interested in a genuine relationship isn't going to do X," I'll never know, but for a few weeks I didn't bother reviewing anything I read, good or bad.

While I hope that wasn't here, I have the nasty feeling it was. We have a few authors in that section that are the reason some of us call it diva-ville.

Frankly, if I'm taking the time to write you a review, and you feel it's necessary to take it personally when I - at least once - note that it's a critique of the work, my response to you is going to be along the lines of "if you didn't want my opinion, why did you post it on the internet?"

If that incident was about two year ago, I already have two immediate candidates come to my mind as the ones who would have reacted that way, both of whom have been banned from the site permanently due to repeated terms of service infractions.

I have a couple rules when I'm reading here at AFF. One I won't bore you with. The other is simple: does this story conform to the terms of service? If the answer is no, I'm not going to bother. Why? If you can't make your story fit within the simple rules and guidelines of this site (we have a lot fewer than many other sites I've seen), that means you can't take anyone 'hampering' your 'creativity' with things like a disclaimer and chapters that consist of actual story, and other things which irk me as a reader and moreso as a staff member.

So if you can't take a little bit of rules and regulations, that likely means that you can't take criticism. Good or bad. And that means that we're going down the "how dare you attack me by saying I need to turn on spellcheck?!" road (only probably with a few misspellings in it). I believe in being open and honest, and if I honestly didn't like your story because your grammar left me cringing, I'm going to tell you that. I'm just going to word it more politely. It might take me a half hour (or more) to figure out how to do so, but I will tell you.

I'm going to comment on your characters' traits and personalities - whether they mesh or don't, especially if it's original fic. Why more there? Because if your characters are inconsistent in their personalities from one chapter to the next, unless your writing a schizo or bi-polar story (truly, someone that suffers from that disorder), then you need to know that so you can develop your writing skills. But if me giving you a character analysis translates into a "how dare you?!" e-mail, PM, IM, Tweet, counter-review, etc, I will not be amused, and you will know it. If you're actually bold enough to leave it on my review board, the whole forum will have access to my reaction, because it will be in my response thread. And, yes, I'll definitely consider it 'using the review board for purposes other than reviewing' if there's nothing there relating to my story and I'll screen it and pop up a thread on it in the staff forums for DG to make a call.

IMO, if an 'author' can't take criticism, they're not really an author. Think of every published author you like. How many times have they had to suffer slings and arrows? Now think of every published author you don't like. 'Nuff said.

[Kurahieiritr]

Personally, I thank you for your thoughts on this subject, bryosgirl. Sorry if this comes across harsh sounding, but I am completely disgusted at this point. Since people have an ego boost mentality about raw drafts they post in these free archives, I won't bother wasting my scheduled free time on reading anything without a request for a Read and Review extended by the writer for the time being as a safety measure. Over time I hope to make a list of people's names so I can confine my reviews to such fellow writers. Seeing it with my own eyes and knowing the trend of how many people swear they have a book in them is at the root of my discontent with this whole mess. You have no idea how many lame excuses people come up with for not trying. However, I saw plenty of it when I was a career editor. I curb my reviews deeply, and yet reviewing is an exercise in futility when false pride is involved.

This is the bottom line. Evidence has stacked up that supports the reality of people no longer caring about creating quality stories, only getting told good job even when not deserved. The younger gen gets it from the public education system. Therefore, forcing myself to wade through raw tales is a lost cause. As was pointed out in this thread: Other writers do not want to improve their talent nor their stories. So the point of trying to give them tips on making a story truly enjoyable is mute. Also pointed out was the thought that people presume quality reviewers are snotty when we aren't, so our thoughts are not welcome.

These are my all time fave Gary Provost quotes which I adhere to when writing anything, and when giving anyone a concrit review. Gary Provost: “Never let perfect grammar interfere with a great storyline!” &

“Know when to toss out grammar rules to make the story real.”

I adhere to that advice and know when to toss out grammar rules, so do not qualify as a grammar fanatic. Why should I expend any more of my precious time and personal energy in trying to communicate when the review is going to get deleted anyway? Since it takes too much effort to force my way back into a poorly framed story repeatedly, because the writer's constant character POV shifting mid paragraph, or I can't figure out which character is holding POV at all, I'm better off going to the bookstore to buy something I can actually enjoy reading without the disrespect factor. Wasting my time is not worthwhile since I am not someone who has plenty of play time to waste.

To Rogue: I tend to agree with you on many fronts and thank you for your input also. Characters have to hold the story together and when they can't it is a dead story from the first paragraph. Even in established fandoms, plenty of very flat and dead tales exist that I never bother reading past 3 paragraphs. I only reviewed things that I felt have real potential for becoming great reads. Still, when I have to go to such extremes to keep my Red headed temper under wraps because of egotists, it is very hard to not rant because of my personal frustration.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Kurahieiritr

[DemonGoddess]

y'know, one can only hope that with time and a bit of maturity, the young ones will learn that concrit is your friend.

[Kurahieiritr]

y'know, one can only hope that with time and a bit of maturity, the young ones will learn that concrit is your friend.

Doubt I will live long enough for that to happen, DG, but I do understand your point. I am far too old at this point to see the lesson get learned I figure. It is a sad thing to say, but no less true. I want to share the love of writing with others, as Gary once shared it with me. Too bad things are so very different from the 80's when concrit was considered a type of high compliment because it told you that the reviewer believed you could produce something fantastic with a revision. Now concrit is an ego attack, so I am well and truly out of my depth in this case.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Kurahieiritr

[RogueMudblood]

Too bad things are so very different from the 80's when concrit was considered a type of high compliment because it told you that the reviewer believed you could produce something fantastic with a revision.

This.

[bryosgirl]

Thankfully not from here, Rogue. There's actually quite an improvement in reception of reviews on AFF since I went on hiatus seven years ago, but then again it could be a category thing, since I stick almost exclusively to original works now.


And no harsh, Kura. You're right to be frustrated and to say it.

[Kurahieiritr]

And no harsh, Kura. You're right to be frustrated and to say it.

A: Thanks Bryosgirl. I do appreciate the fact that I can vent my frustration without being condemned by everyone. To be honest, I never had a reveiw deleted before I came ot AFFnet so it has been quite a horrible shock overall.

[RogueMudblood]

Thankfully not from here, Rogue. There's actually quite an improvement in reception of reviews on AFF since I went on hiatus seven years ago, but then again it could be a category thing, since I stick almost exclusively to original works now.

Glad to hear it!

A: Thanks Bryosgirl. I do appreciate the fact that I can vent my frustration without being condemned by everyone. To be honest, I never had a reveiw deleted before I came ot AFFnet so it has been quite a horrible shock overall.

You'll find that those of us in the forums are rather an open-minded - if passionate - bunch.

Now: as to an example of what I mean on the rules issue -

This is the disclaimer as it appears now (don't worry, the mods will warn on it, if they haven't already)

I DO NOT OWN ANY OF THE CHARACTERS HEREIN, NOR DO I MAKE A PROFIT FROM THEM. CONTAINS ADULT CONTENT. CHARACTERS: STAYNE & ALICE.

Yes, it's a fanfiction, and the rules for disclaimers are different than in originals. However, given the fact that the author didn't name the fandom, only states that they are not making profit from the characters (neglecting any other element of fandom) and feels a declaration on an adult site that adult content is included is necessary, I know that reviewing this story will likely give me a headache.

It was one of the rules I made for myself when I started reviewing for the R.A. here in the forums - if you can't get the basics right, it's not worth my time to bother with your story, and I'll move on to the next person. That might sound uppity, but look at it from my perspective: that story is likely going to be hidden or deleted. Why waste my time explaining to the author that the ampersand doesn't belong in prose -ever- and that I'm not quite sure how come (cum) can "quirt"? (It is a word, by the way, which our horse handlers here in the forums will recognize immediately.)

I'm of the opinion that it's not worth my suffering, so I'll move on to someone who actually wants to know what people think of their writing. By the time you're old enough to be posting here, you should have moved past the "I don't care how I present my stuff as long as it's out there" phase and into the "I'd really like to know if my writing's worth a damn" phase. Sadly, that isn't always the case.

What I would do is pick one section of originals - say, SciFi (and subsection) - and give concrit there for a week. If the authors there aren't receptive, move to another subsection and so on until you find the niche with people that want well-balanced concrit.

[DemonGoddess]

Users CAN'T delete reviews on FFN. At least not logged in ones.

[Kurahieiritr]

Yeah, I know FFnet does not allow signed reviews to be deleted unless a mod removes it after determining it is hateful or trolling materials. However, a mod will take weeks to get around to reading the offensive review material at FFnet so is a waste of time to report them at FFnet. So, getting "kill all white people" off topic reviews, led to me deleting the Initial D Rivalry series for a few weeks.

I saved the concrit reviews to my computer and did a hard revision based upon the good reviews I got before the race hater targeted my account. Was pathetic that I had to go that far, but it did work to end any more hate reviews since people missed the stories. Also, I took the signed race hater's screen name and added it to my blocked list. They never bothered me again after I was done with adding the anti hate warnings to my A/N and reposting the series there.

[bookworm51485]

Was reading this comment and thinking this would be the perfect place to post this:

https://www.change.org/petitions/archiveofourown-org-recognize-the-importance-of-the-reader

Not had issue with this site with this issue, but other archives aren't doing so well. I just wish more people posted here in the Fandoms I follow, then I wouldn't be stuck going elsewhere.

A: Very good point, George. I am similar in my reading and review actions. I do talk about the good points of a story if I do review, and as often as not I leave the spelling and bad grammar to a single "please use a grammar/spell checker program before posting" comment. Some of the reviews I leave ask where the characters are located if the story has zero setting. Or I might find a fic where the Point of View shifts so fast it makes me dizzy trying to keep up with which character is speaking. A few have a lot of tense shifts, so the character is jumping back and forth through time without end in a given scene.

As the "lack of reviews" and several other threads all point out, the Diva types have ruined many people's desire to give reviews at all. Even a couple mods have had to explain to the Diva variety writers sending in reasonable reviews as trolls about the difference between concrit and trolling. Hearing that reviewers are actively leaving disclaimers before they leave a review is another sad evolution caused by the Diva's "Leave Reviews Tantrum fests" which is unfortunate for everyone who puts up stories here. A lot of people have stopped giving reviews at all because of the situation. The drop in reviews is connected to such Diva minded individuals in part. Other factors do exist, yet the common denominator really has been the Diva writers throwing tantrums if they don't get ego strokes alone.

Therefore, is it any surprise that talking about ideas that will provide future reviewers a sense of security through asking about creating an Author Promotion sector where we each have to list guidelines for our own reviews has begun in another thread? I know you've read that particular post, George. It is a sorry state when authors have to point out in detail which types of reviews are acceptable because of a group that has made many readers leery of posting any kind of reviews. I cannot see an Author Promotion addition changing this situation with reviews tapering off and even shutting down completely. The threads where Review requests are asked for by giving the story before it a review before posting your own tale(s) is about the only one I've seen that has worked. For anyone who does not wish to post a story though, it becomes irrelevant. If a person does not know the fandom, they cannot review as often as not due to lacking the background expected of them. So again, we have the same problem with finding a solution that lets reviewers feel comfortable with reviewing for strangers.

Easy solutions do not exist for the escalating problem that has sparked several diverse threads here in this forum. Several posts by people who once gave reviews speak of getting insulted by the Diva writers to the point they no longer bother to review for anyone. The number of individuals who have the experience with getting their thoughtful reviews deleted has been growing. The topic is included within multiple forum categories. Perhaps it will come to a conclusion when nobody outside of their specific support group, or buddy system gets reviews here any longer. Having to contemplate such a sorry statement is truly sad. Yet, it seems to be about the only viable option when people are reluctant to share their thoughts and opinions in the review system because of feeling disrespected. People are leaving fewer reviews of any classification as time marches on according to the different threads. Due to this phenomena increasing in repetition, I can only assume that the problem will get much worse in the future.

[Kurahieiritr]

My writing is something that is therapeutic and I for one do not care if I get a single review. People have left me reviews saying that my writing sucks, and after deleting their review I must say that I agree. So does 95% of the mis-spelled schock across all of the fan sites in the web.

Take for instance character bashing, I have seen people who put badly written stories up and get 500 to 600 'reviews' from insipid readers who wouldn't know a colon from a period (and I amusingly use anatomical terms deliberately, for the waterheads who do not know the difference). Then I get 'nasty-grams' from people who say I had no right to even leave a review because I thought that the bash sucked. This is mostly on FF, but again I digress (low IQ's make me wretch).

I take under advisement that what I write is not to all peoples tastes either. Okay.....

When I write, it is a release, an outlet for my creative side. Better than trying to act out some foolish whim. But, ah me, time to digress again....

And for anyone who thinks I have issues, there is the second finger on either hand. (Figure that one out)

I love sarcasm, wit, politically incorrect humor, sex jokes, and sometimes even a good old-fashioned conversation. I miss those. Triple-play on the digression...

All of that aside, just shut the hell up and enjoy yourself. I DO!

A: See you have a good attitude about the things you seek to accomplish in your writing. You are not going around asking people to review your work with the expectation that all shall stroke your ego. I have no problem with people who are clear that they are not out to get reviews specifically. My frustration mounted to the explosive point with people who were begging for reviews, even promoting guilt trips for the purpose of getting them. Some people actually get a kick out of abusing their readers if the readers do not fawn over them. I got sick of the abusive side of people seeking ego boosts, and ranted about it because it is unfair of writers to demand reviews, and then attack those who leave reviews for them.

The whole point of this thread dealt with being asked to review someone's story and then getting harsh attacks from those who requested the review. Personally, I decided that I am not willing to be disrespected any longer, nor do I have the time to waste on people who say they wish something that they don't actively want at all. I stopped reviewing anyone who requested a review from me around Thanksgiving of last year. I have enough real life problems on my plate without playing into the games of the diva crowd. I for one have never taken abuse from others for any given time. I hit my quota of abusive writers a while back, so I said no more.

I also decided to no longer accept beta help requests for the same reason. Anyone who is unwilling to actually attempt to clean up or focus their work is likewise seeking an ego stroke, not an actual beta. So my reasons for frustration have evaporated. The real world offers plenty of punishments by rote, and I have no desire to be drawn into empty egotistical stupidity online. Having made that decision freed up my energy to focus on the deaths in my family, and the car accident scenario my son was in, among other real issues.

[magusfang]

I hate you ALL!!! Oh sorry, I thought you were reviewing my story

Do what I do, read the reviews you think are worthwhile and ignore the rest

As for getting slammed when you try to review someone else's work, screw them too. If I try to help a drowning man and he spits in my face, well I'm gonna let him drown.

Unfortunately we are, as a whole, a pretty pathetic and annoying species: You have those whose egos are so fragile that anything that could be percieved as negative just sets off. Also, you have those whose self-worth is so low, they are only happy when bashing other; they can't bring themselves up, so they try and knock everyone else down.

So if your writing to make everyone happy, you're doomed! Make yourself happy first then those you deem worth your time. Remember your time is finite, don't waste it on the dregs of humanity, there are good people out there who will truly apriciate it, it's your job to find them - and that goes for everything, not just writing.

Ok, need some smart ass comment here" Some people need a high five...in the face...with a chair...just sayin...

[Kurahieiritr]

I hate you ALL!!! Oh sorry, I thought you were reviewing my story

Do what I do, read the reviews you think are worthwhile and ignore the rest

As for getting slammed when you try to review someone else's work, screw them too. If I try to help a drowning man and he spits in my face, well I'm gonna let him drown.

Unfortunately we are, as a whole, a pretty pathetic and annoying species: You have those whose egos are so fragile that anything that could be percieved as negative just sets off. Also, you have those whose self-worth is so low, they are only happy when bashing other; they can't bring themselves up, so they try and knock everyone else down.

So if your writing to make everyone happy, you're doomed! Make yourself happy first then those you deem worth your time. Remember your time is finite, don't waste it on the dregs of humanity, there are good people out there who will truly apriciate it, it's your job to find them - and that goes for everything, not just writing.

Ok, need some smart ass comment here" Some people need a high five...in the face...with a chair...just sayin...

A: The point of this complete rant was how people beg and demand reviews, then cause trouble for those who aren't brown noser class reviewers though. I don't bother with any of them any longer. I removed the nerve wracking obnoxiousness from my life. I can't trust the writer to be mature, so I have no need to bother with giving feed back. Problem solved. Besides, I don't have the energy to waste considering I've been very busy with the very rough real world all year long. I'm not going to waste time I do not have searching for anyone who may or may not prove to fit the good and mature writer category. Plenty of folks say they are those things, and they are lying through their teeth. Simple answer is to back button on crappy tales, and get out, or simply not review on the rare occasions I have an hour to read a story these days.

[Muhabba]

I hooked my first troll with the first story I ever posted. My disclaimer was kinda general because I didn't think much of it since the site itself disclaimed that the contents were parody. So I posted my first story, Anita Blake, and my first ever review was someone ranting that I had stolen Anita Blake and he was gonna contact the Anita Blake author with a link to my story and yadda yadda yadda. It was very off putting for my first ever story but luckily the next poster was very helpful in explaining what the first poster was talking about, just because the site says my story is a parody I should still state it myself, and help me with some constructive critisisum. My spelling still sux to the point of confusing my Spelling Check but my grammer has gotten better at least. Because of that one, second commenter, I always review my reviews of the story of others so that no matter who bad their story looks I always try to stay constructive. By and by 'tho, my biggest pet peeve is the Wall Of Words, a story with no paragaph breaks.

[foeofthelance]

Your stuff is actually pretty good. (I'm waiting for a sequel to the Dresdenverse story, myself.)

My biggest pet peeve is the, "I wouldn't write it that way" reviewers. Ok, great, then go write it your way!

[Kurahieiritr]

Your stuff is actually pretty good. (I'm waiting for a sequel to the Dresdenverse story, myself.)

My biggest pet peeve is the, "I wouldn't write it that way" reviewers. Ok, great, then go write it your way!

A: Agreed, Foe. They should go write their own when they are telling another person what they can and cannot write.

[Kurahieiritr]

The manga my stories were based off is about fifteen years old so many in 2014 may not be too familiar with it. But I like it over other manga that is out today, Reviews for such an old series will be few and far between but that is okay. Since I like AU/OOC so much, some have noted that I have totally distorted the manga/anime. They are 100% correct. I also do not expect many views, reviews or comments of any kind.

On to another subject...

My biggest peeve is when someone asks me to look at the Naruto or Bleach story and then review it. Screw that, both series bore me to tears. Sorry people but no one writes on newer the newer series. Examples: Candy Boy, Ai Yori Aoshi, Maria-sama ga miteru or Strawberry Panic, etc. I have left many reviews for those stories on other sites because the subject was interesting and the writing was good. AND! The writer never asked for a review,

Maybe that is my stance, write an interesting and good story on a series that is newer and then I will leave a review.

THIS IS JUST A SUPPOSITION.

A: I can understand the pet peeve feeling of being asked to review stories that do not hold any active sparks of interest. It would be a very tedious task to read something you do not enjoy. I for one can be very finicky in my tastes so confine myself to the animes/mangas I actively enjoy. Still, I stopped giving reviews to anyone after a dose of nastiness received from other writers who demanded, begged, and wheedled me into reviewing their stories.

My rant has always been about people pushing for reviews and proving in the end that they are egomaniacs who only accept ego stroking attention instead of honesty. In the end, I am happier not reviewing anything now. I no longer suffer the headaches attached to people who lie about what they really want in the form of reviews. I also do not worry about whether or not anyone reads my work either. My stories are in a very small niche so not very many people even know the show exists which is fine with me. I decided it no longer matters to me whether or not new people take an interest in things I write. My core group of fans like my stories enough to read them, and I have made my peace with the situation that led to this rant in the first place.

On a brighter note, I am taking a renewed interest in different forms of feedback as I find time to actually write anything at all. Email works great for sharing chapters, and getting feedback from like minded, honest individuals. I may only get a chapter written every few months, but hey, the two people I ship the chapters to, always give me real feedback, and show me the grammar and other failings so by the time I can post a single chapter between bouts of real world chaos, I know it is a decent chapter now.