LJ, Failing Hard Once Again

[Guest Serenanna]

So, I gotta know. Given the recent debacle (read: PR nightmare of legendary amounts of fail, acts of professional suicide and noose tying, and enough wank on both sides to keep the lulz rolling), where do you LJ-users here stand?

If you don't know about it by now, it's not hard to find out from your friends list, specially if you're in the Potter slash fandom. I've been in the trenches too long seeing all the news developments to give a summary right now. All I can say is that it's like watching a wreck in slow motion, too horrifying to look watch but too interesting that you gotta keep rewinding it over and over to see it again.

Sere

[Guest echtrae]

I thought about joining either Insane Journal or Greatest Journal, but then I decided to just create my own (particularly seeing that I've got most of the code written) and leave my LJ place up and running. I've been thinking I might join the other two, but posts between the three would be a bit limited.

[DarkCabaret]

I used to belong to DeadJournal mostly a bunch of emo's and posers.....

[Guest Knorg]

I'm sticking with my livejournal. The only time I was ever suspended was for posting the whois information on a website. TOS violation apparantly, and otherwise I've never had a problem so why move?

Also, got a perm account...

[Guest echtrae]

Those are good reasons to stay there.

[EveKnight75]

My LJ wasn't attacked during the fiasco and I was surprised because of my interest in incest. Later, I found out that I had used the term "incest fiction" and hadn't realized it.

My LJ isn't popular. I have a small friends list. I don't post actual fics on my LJ. The reviews I reply to never have questionable content. I don't list too many interests.

I agree that the fiasco was stupidity on their part. I think they should try to learn a little more about the concept of fanwork because it creates a sizeable portion of their userbase.

Still, I don't think I'll be moving from LJ. I don't like posting pictures of myself online. I don't have many pictures on FaceBook as it is. That takes MySpace out of the question. There are other blogging sites available, but I don't think any of them can match LJ in terms of popularity.

LJ's probably learned its lesson. If they mess up this badly again in the near future, then I may consider leaving, but for now I stay put because it'll be easier for those who read my fics to find me on LJ.

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

There's an 18 and over site using the LJ engine, http://www.blurty.com/.

Apparently, over 900,000 people signed up in May, so yeah...

I use Blogger for my rants and such 'cause it's easy and ver customizable, though I might move to blurty. Hmm...

EDIT: BUT THEY ALLOW THIS KIND OF SHIT?

That whole comm that was posted in is all white supremacy! It ENCOURAGES HATE CRIMES! WHAT THE FUCK!?

Edited August 11, 2007 by Alien Pirate Pixagi

[EveKnight75]

2) No discussing of illegal activity.

3) Absolutely no advocating of violence in any way. This includes jokes, satirical stories, song lyrics or anything of the sort.

Those two rules may be the only reason they're still there. Apparently, the community before it was deleted.

I'm more than willing to report it, but someone else will have to troll it. Some of my entries reveal that I'm actually Indian despite the fact that I look kinda white.

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

2) No discussing of illegal activity.

3) Absolutely no advocating of violence in any way. This includes jokes, satirical stories, song lyrics or anything of the sort.

Those two rules may be the only reason they're still there. Apparently, the community before it was deleted.

I'm more than willing to report it, but someone else will have to troll it. Some of my entries reveal that I'm actually Indian despite the fact that I look kinda white.

I'm gonna check and see if I've ever stated that I am Biracial...

Nope, am a part of a gay comms and those that promote the fictional interracial relationship

[Iggy_lovechild]

*is exhausted* I've spent the better part of a week hashing all this shit out...Ugh, LJ failed hard, I don't care if I never had to worry. Point is, lj is being very inconsistent with their dealings and very shady at that.

Fuck it, I moved my shit to Greatest Journal.

[Guest Serenanna]

Ugh, ugh, ugh. Like Iggy, I've probably got nothing to worry about too, but the fact that they pulled all this shit before the permanent account sale last month has made me weary of dealing with them. Technically, by deciding already what they do and don't want posted, they're common carrier status is null and void, so they should, as required, police everything, but they aren't. They've already made idiotic statements that pro-anorexia comms won't be deleted, so people kept digging for real things, like bible-belt Christians advocating physical child abuse on babies. ::headdesk::

It won't be long now though since a few intrepid fans contacted the California State Attorney General about the company. The response back was that they'd moderate a resolution between the company and the users, but they didn't get a response back from 6A, they'd look at legal action. Consumer law seems to be pretty good in California too.

If LJ continues on their war path, they may just delete everything adult anyway, so I backed up my journal just in case. So far InsaneJournal seems to have the best policy in place as the own has come out and said that he is in no way associated with LJ/6A, that he gets final ok on all account suspensions, that he wouldn't delete anything without a DMCA or a warrant unless it was real child porn, and he said that if Google Ads told him to remove adult content, he'd can Google Ads.

Sounds like a winner to me.

Sere

[Iggy_lovechild]

Greatest journal is pretty good too. Their TOS is nice and clear, and their policy on any material deemed "objectionable" says that they'll ask the user to friend-lock it or take it down depending on the content. I think it's only when you become a repeat offender that you get terminated or whatever.

I should mention though...part of the reason why I left was that one of my current writing projects does involve a minor. ...I suppose. Basically it explores the early parts of a certain pairing's relationship and at the beginning the age difference is 15/18 for the characters involved. While I'm not planning any lemons until much later in the story, I didn't want to get deleted. Although by the time the first lemon is slated, the age difference with 17/20 and I'd still get in trouble. Under lj's new policy, any sexual content involving characters under the age of 18 is considered objectionable. Nice huh?

Thanks a lot lj.

[Madame Manga]

LJ gives me a migraine.

I don't dispute the right of a private company to regulate what material goes on its servers. That's not a free speech issue -- 6A is not the US government. LJ is not a common carrier, since they had restrictions and a TOS from the get-go. If they don't want to allow Potterchan or drawings of fictional teens doing it with fictional adults, that's their right -- it's their space, and they do have good reason to be wary of the vagaries of American law where arguably pedophiliac works are concerned. So why does my blood pressure shoot sky-high every time this shit hits the fan? Well...

I used to hang out at Literotica.com. They screen every story before they post it, and their absolute rule is no persons under 18 may be depicted in connection with sexual activity. Not an older character flashing back to younger days, not a young person spying on older people without actual participation -- we're talking a hard, bright line. You have to positively state that your characters are older than 18 -- no mere implications will suffice.

Why did that policy not really bug me, although it limited what I could read and post there? Because it was completely up front, unambiguous and unchanging. It wasn't vague, squishy, blurred by "artistic intent" (as interpreted by some bunch of demonstrably clueless webadmins) and otherwise clear as mud. You knew EXACTLY where you stood, and although you might chafe a bit at its restrictions, you'd never get a poison headache trying to comply with the policy. When a story was rejected, they told you why, and you could fix it and re-submit it. They did not swoop on you without warning and nuke your entire account as if you had the Black Death when some anonymous crusader complained.

For some reason, LJ seems to think that taking a stand and stating a truly clear policy is bad. And that changing that policy without warning is beneficial to the process, and that constantly reacting in obvious panic rather than planning ahead and sticking to some sort of established precedent is the way to conduct a business. It's a *business*. They have paying and nonpaying customers with a contractual relationship with the company. They owe them a consistent, solid, carefully administered TOS. But they can't seem to get it right even after stuffing all their feet so far down their collective throat that they shouldn't be able to breathe.

Two months ago, I was seriously considering ante-ing up for a real LJ account. I've been on LJ for the better part of five years, posted hundreds of thousands of words and have hundreds of comments archived. Are they getting one red cent of my money?

No points for guessing right.

-MM

[Guest Big Samurai]

Trying to talk about the controversy while on LJ got me into a prolonged war with a bunch of trolls, so I'm a little reluctant to bring it up again, but ... the whole thing in which a company has a right to say what does and does not fly on its servers always chafes me. I would think the First Amendment would take priority, since the government is supposed to have more authority than any corporation, but ... it is not my place to judge that. I do not favor chan or shouta or any of the other stuff that LJ wants to ban, but, at the same time, if one gives an inch, that invites the banning party to take a foot, and I'm leery of that.

[Jadwin]

My money says that the whole deal was spawned by a new, and rather big sponsor. If the people paying your bills don't like certain things, they'll either make you take it down, or they'll move on.

I post all sorts of porn and weirdness in my journal, but it's still up. If they want to ban me, then fine. I've got other options, but until then, I'm not gonna bother with moving all my stuff.

[Guest Serenanna]

::dances in with the latest:: Here's the summary so far:

They put in place a two strike warning system for any images of fictional character under 18 engaged in graphic sexual conduct. Real child porn is instantly canned and report to the NCFMEC, like the real law states, but fans violating the policy won't be.

Sounds reasonable right?

Here's where the fail starts.

- No linking to policy-violating content

- F-locking will not save you if someone on your list or in your comm turns you in

- Age statements mean nothing if they think you're lying

- If it's still on their server cache and they find it, you're dead too

The last two points they haven't made public, but it's pretty obvious since they gave the first warnings to two more Potter artists, vikingcarrot and cluegirl, who both posted on Pornish Pixies. The first deleted outright or applied age statements to anything with ambiguous ages. The second deleted it from her scrapebook, but it remained in their server cache.

That aside, what's still unanswered:

- What if someone is actually older but looks young?

- What if someone is young but looks older?

- What if the art style makes someone look younger?

- What if it's already published somewhere else, like art history or medical text books?

- Is it just boy on boy (given that's all that's been reported on) or girl on girl and hetero too?

- Does anything over 18 still fly?

- What about text?

- Who will be judging ages and how are they qualified?

- Was all that artistic merit crap just bull shit?

- Why won't they change their TOS?

- Why the waffling in the first place?

- Why were reassurances made during the account sale that fictional characters wouldn't be targeted unless it was extreme (prepubescent), and now another policy change afterwards when more people get upset?

- Why is it just about the porn and nothing else more harming that is real?

- Who is legally responsibly for the content on LJ? Individual users or 6A?

- What if the reports are being made by someone with a grudge or a troll?

I'm asking the last one because this appears to be the case with Pornish Pixies, than someone in the membership either turned coat or is a troll. Think about it. Four pics, four artists, all with ambiguous ages, all pictures of males, and all reported from the same place, two of which after it was locked down? But the other yaoi/slash communities are untouched?

The tinhat theorists at Fandom Wank got a report yesterday from the infamous MSScribe, a sock-puppeteer that used an Anonyimzer on her IP addresses and multiple accounts to fool a lot of the Potter fandom into loving her. She made a suspicious statement about a troll in Pornish implicating herself that the fandom wankers went giddy over.

She could be lying, but then again she did troll her own before too. Regardless, this demonstrates the power one person with an agenda/vendetta can have over someone they don't agree with, want to make a point, or just want to harass with just a few clicks of the abuse button and link to another set of new policies being drafted they've stated about before.

Either way, if she or someone else (which is looking to be the case) did set it off, the chain reaction it's caused seems to be infuriating a lot of people and not just fandom, with the constant waffling, double-standard, added unsolicited advertising, and sucky service. If it is supposed to be a consumer service, LJ to me is still trying to grasp the concept of being a good service and failing more than it gets it right . . .

Sere

[foeofthelance]

Trying to talk about the controversy while on LJ got me into a prolonged war with a bunch of trolls, so I'm a little reluctant to bring it up again, but ... the whole thing in which a company has a right to say what does and does not fly on its servers always chafes me. I would think the First Amendment would take priority, since the government is supposed to have more authority than any corporation, but ... it is not my place to judge that. I do not favor chan or shouta or any of the other stuff that LJ wants to ban, but, at the same time, if one gives an inch, that invites the banning party to take a foot, and I'm leery of that.

Actually, the internet is tricky like that. It is a public venue, but the hosting servers are still privately owned. So as far as the government has been concerned they've been treating these kinds of sites as private businesses. If you say or do something that violates an agreement with the business, or behave in a manner that they see as jeopardizing their ability to do business, they can kick you off. Much the way you can get arrested for yelling "Fire!" in a theatre or starting a bar brawl.

[Guest Big Samurai]

Much the way you can get arrested for yelling "Fire!" in a theatre or starting a bar brawl.

That is true, and I can see that model working if it was exclusively for cases like the one I am quoting from you, but, at the same time, it is remarkably open. If I owned a server, and I was hosting, say, your 'fic, I could delete it on the grounds that I might need that file space you are using for a future hosting project that might increase my profits. Your 'fic could be seen as potentially harming my business. Leaps of logic like that one are why I do not trust businesses to be responsible.

[Guest echtrae]

In my experience, businesses tend to behave like overly large and selfish children. They see something that they think they might want and immediately devolve into the shouting the mantra of "Mine! Mine! Mine!" Publicly traded companies seem to be extremely prone to this kind of behavior.

[foeofthelance]

If I owned a server, and I was hosting, say, your 'fic, I could delete it on the grounds that I might need that file space you are using for a future hosting project that might increase my profits. Your 'fic could be seen as potentially harming my business. Leaps of logic like that one are why I do not trust businesses to be responsible.

A good point, but look at it this way. If you're biggest advertiser was offended by my fic, or was recieving complaints about it for being affiliated with it, and they threatened to pull out, then you'd have to pull it wouldn't you?

That's essentially the reason why AFF has an age verifier and LJ doesn't. Aff is a willing to host things most people don't want to know about or would be offended by. As such its also limiting exactly who would be advertising here. I would be shocked, utterly shocked, to see the likes of McDonalds, Gerber, or any other family brand advertising here.

LJ, on the otherhand, does want as much big naming advertising as they can get. So I expect them to have a very vague set of rules on which one they could effectively kick or remove any form of content, all so that they can continously profit. We're a club. They're a company. Expecting them to not crack down on the things which can cause them to lose money is like expecting a hungry tiger not to eat meat.

[DarkCabaret]

LJ has officially disappointed me. I'm done with them lol.

I filed one of their abuse reports, I made it as if I stumbled across the white supremacy community they have....link was gotten from HERE, and I made quite the report:

Okay, I stumbled upon this community (name: folk_and_faith) that I have seen is a WHITE SUPREMACY SITE! Is live journal aware that this is a RACIST community? For instance someone posted this:

Posted by sexacute on 2007.01.14 at 02:49

Current Mood: drunk

Not sure if anyone has ever seen this...

but justice was served that day.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/gruesome/decapitation.asp#photo

This link is of an african american's HEAD that was severed from his body and she thinks JUSTICE had been served!

How the HELL can live journal allow this filth? Considering most of the users are teens! It's really discouraging to log in and do a search for something and find this FILTH! ALSO:

http://community.livejournal.com/folk_and_...650.html#cutid1

This entry right here, they consider someone doing the salute HITLER used as family bonding while his little girl flips off the team!

CLEARLY this place is against TOS somewhere! If not, then your TOS should be changed, white supremacy should NOT be allowed where such a young generation can see it! (Point blank: It doesn't belong on LJ!)

(Later I posted another thing straight from THEIR TOS)

TOS States: Upload, post or otherwise transmit any Content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortious, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive to another's privacy (up to, but not excluding any address, email, phone number, or any other contact information without the written consent of the owner of such information), hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable

---This community DOES at least two of these things! It is RACIALLY AND ETHNICALLY OBJECTIONABLE!

The reply I got was less than what I expected...

Thank you for contacting us with your report. While the content in question is disturbing and in poor taste, it does not constitute a violation of the LiveJournal Terms of Service. The content posted is simply an opinion, and we allow the expression of a wide range of opinions on LiveJournal, even when such opinions are offensive to other people. As long as the content does not explicitly and specifically encourage others to harass or physically harm any particular racial, ethnic, or social minority, it is considered allowable.

As such, we will be unable to assist you; we encourage you to refrain from viewing this journal in the future if you find its content offensive.

Regards,

  Annika

  LiveJournal Abuse Prevention Team

It's so great to see that LJ will allow racism. So, yeah I'm finished with them and will stick to MySpace.