Smoking?

[Guest echtrae]

What do you think, is this pro or con smoking?

Disney's No Smoking

[Hermione Malfoy]

I don't know. It could be both of them.

[Guest Agaib]

O.o

Thats really disturbing. If anything I would say its not really either, its more of a caricature of the habit.

[EveKnight75]

I'm with Agaib on this one. This whole thing is a caricature.

This cartoon was made before the public knew smoking was bad for you, before "fag" became a bad word. I know it still means "cigarette" in the UK if not in the US.

It does a poor job illustrating the bad effects of smoking then makes it seem as if the effort of quitting just isn't worth it. And yes, I realize that it really is that bad for someone who's trying to quit.

Back then, parents would have considered this safe for children to watch. I wouldn't be surprised if a kid tried to smoke after watching this. But then again, parents didn't know it was bad for your health.

Now, this wouldn't be considered safe for children. The sad part is that the ban would be based on the use of the word "fag" rather than the message the cartoon may be inadvertently conveying.

I'm probably taking this too seriously and sound like a conservative. Still, that's my opinion. Partially a result of being raised in a generation where we're taught to closely scrutinize every little thing we see in the media, partially a result of the fact that my dad died of lung cancer because he smoked so now I'm a bit sensitive about the topic.

[ZombieDuke]

What I found intresting about this is that smoking is described as an addiction, and the social pressure on somebody who wants to stop just immense. Goofy tried to go against the norm and it wasn't seen as cool or sane for that matter.

Plus the marketing of the brand near the beginning of the commerical was also intresting. I'd have to say this is a Pro smoking creation IMO.

[Leonhart29]

Okay - first of all I am someone who is trying their damnedest to quit smoking, and like Goofy I'm failing miserably. My work place went smoke free which helps a lot from 7am to 3:30 pm. I have a child with asthma (and I have it too) so therefore I don't smoke inside unless I'm at my computer and they are sound asleep on the other side of the house, and now it's almost impossible to find a bar or restaurant that will allow it. It's a horrible habit that makes your clothes and hair stink, your skin turn paper thin and wrinkle and then there's the whole mess with cancer and other ailments. This in my opinion makes it worth less than the shit on the bottom of my shoe - but for some reason I'm having the hardest time quitting.

I have to admit that when I was younger I saw this cartoon while sitting in my father's lap. If I remember correctly I asked him why Goofy was acting so strangely - Dad just smiled, took a puff off of the Camel unfiltered in his mouth and told me I would find out when I was older. I did - boy did I ever.

This is both pro and con smoking in my opinion. The way they showed the stress and utter horror of quitting (and yes it is that bad even with the drugs they can give you today) it makes you do one of two things - continue to smoke or not start at all.

[Guest echtrae]

Leon, quitting smoking can be done. I did it a number of years ago. What I found that helped was easing off the first cig in the morning. Once I was able to get past that and was content with it, I was able to actually quit. So, it can be done, but just realize that even once you have stopped you'll be quitting for a very long time. Good luck.

[Leonhart29]

Thank you for the advice - the only thing is - I don't smoke in the morning. I don't have the first cig until around 11:30 am, then it's not until around 5 in the afternoon until I have another one. I've cut way down from 2 packs a day - I just can't seem to give up that last 5 or so a day... It's pretty damn sad.

[Guest echtrae]

When I had reached that point, I was able to finally quit. I woke up one morning, smoke what I had left, and drank about a fifth and a half of vodka. Then I didn't do either for about three months, which made leaving the smoking behind much easier. Then when I restarted drinking, my body was no longer associating smoking with drinking.

[Keith Inc.]

After the view of the smoke-damaged furniture of the 'average smoker' and the frantic behavior of a smoker first thing in the morning, i'd say it was making fun of smokers. It's not quite the preachiness of most anti-smoking campaigns today, but it's certainly a tongue-in-cheek caricature.

[redsliver]

MY dad quit smoking and three years later the cancers started. after fighting for 18 years, he finally lost a fight. Lung, liver, prostate, bladder, and colon. A few of them multiple times. Now, I can't stand seeing someone with a cigarette.

[Guest Yhitzak]

Damn dial-up connection! I don't have the patience or the time to wait for this video to load, but I've read the thread and have seen enough Disney propaganda to know that this is probably just another thing like 'Buy war bonds and stamps!"

As for the pros and cons of smoking....

I'm a smoker, and I'm not proud of it and I'm not ashamed of it. I like smoking. I like the taste and the fact that it's an easy excuse to get out of a bad conversation ("Oh, I'd love to stand here and gab with you, but I have to go *out* for a cigarette.") On the other side of it, I don't like being out of breath or smelling bad. I've toyed with the idea of quitting more times than I can count, and someday I probably will. What keeps me from *actively* wanting to quit? The idea that I'm somehow morally inferior to people who don't smoke. If I'm going to quit, it's going to be because *I* want to quit and *not* because of bans, surgeon generals' warnings, or some social attitude of moral superiority.

What makes the desire to quit so hard for me to grasp is that there is nothing but anti-smoking propaganda being shoved down my throat. I've seen people my own age (24) develop cancer. I've seen my grandparents smoke three packs of Camels (unfiltered) a day for sixty-plus years and never contract a flipping cold. I'm not saying that smoking doesn't cause cancer; obviously it can and does. However, if you look at the medical problems surrounded with smoking and/or with cancer, this correlation isn't enough to justify demonizing smoking or smokers on the whole. I'm willing to say that smokers who live in urban or city areas are two to ten times liklier to develop cancer than a smoker who lives in a rural area. Why? Exhaust fumes. Does anyone out there really think that cigarettes are the main cause of cancer in this or any country? Maybe it's the preservatives in our food, maybe it's the fumes from our cars and factories, maybe it's toxic waste, maybe it's a combination of factors. How much and what type/brand of cigarettes you smoke also factor largely into one's liklihood for developing cancer. Genetics also has a huge role in this topic.

[Madame Manga]

What keeps me from *actively* wanting to quit? The idea that I'm somehow morally inferior to people who don't smoke. If I'm going to quit, it's going to be because *I* want to quit and *not* because of bans, surgeon generals' warnings, or some social attitude of moral superiority.

In the US, *everything* is made into a moral issue. Private sexual behavior (including fantasies and masturbation that involve no one but the individual); the choice to stay home with the kiddies or work (if there's actually a choice involved); the consumption of alcohol, sweets and trans fats... I don't need to go on. That's just the way the culture frames it, and you can't get away from that. A well-honed sense of the absurd is your only protection.

I understand your resentment at being labeled morally inferior for a personal habit (as long as you are not blowing in it other people's faces), but if you let the moralists influence your actions either positively or negatively, they still end up calling the shots for you. What do you think is best for you, quitting or continuing? You are completely free to do either, and that's all you need to take account of, until they actually criminalize the use of tobacco.

Personally, I hate the stuff and get an instant sore throat every time someone lights up within fifteen yards of me (which didn't happen before I worked with heavy smokers a couple of decades ago) but a Volstead Act for cigs would be just as doomed as the original effort. As you say, people don't often respond well to being lectured. I order foie gras every time I see it on a menu, speaking of moralists attempting to legislate what I stuff into my face. Just because it's so damn yummy.

-MM

[EveKnight75]

MY dad quit smoking and three years later the cancers started. after fighting for 18 years, he finally lost a fight. Lung, liver, prostate, bladder, and colon. A few of them multiple times. Now, I can't stand seeing someone with a cigarette.

I can relate. My dad was diagnosed with pulmonary embolism. He gave up smoking cold turkey. Two months later, they diagnosed him with lung cancer. Two days later, he died.

At least he managed to quit in the end, even if a lot of people considered it too late and belittled that accomplishment because of it.

My mom actually goes up to strangers and starts yelling at them when she sees them smoking. I'm still disgusted and slightly angry when I see people smoke. But the thing is, it has to be their choice. They know it's bad for them, but it has to be their decision to attempt to rid themselves of their vice. Nothing I say or do can change that one fact. All I can do is support them while they try their best to quit.

I can manage to be friends with smokers, provided that they're courteous enough not to smoke in front of me or hold a discussion comparing cigarette brands while I'm obviously within earshot. (One of my former friends actually did the latter then called me an oversensitive prude for walking out of the room. Needless to say, that friendship is over.)

[quamp]

I'm also alergic to cigarette smoke as well. A great-aunt of mine never smoked, but worked in a greasy spoon restaurant for about 30 years where the customers around her smoked a lot. She had lung cancer that was treated, but it spread into her breasts, then into her lymph system, and finally her brain. Shortly before she died, I saw her. She didn't recognize me, or even her daughter (my aunt.)

As a recovering videogame addict, I can assure you that I know how hard it is to break an addictive habit. It was hard for me to break it; at one point during the summer, that was all I did. However, my family saw that this behavior was becoming bad and helped me break it.

One thing you have to remember about this cartoon is that it was made in 1952. This was long before the sexual and racial revolutions of the 1960's. One could show racist, sexist and otherwise offensive stuff to kids (except anything sexual in nature) and get away with it.

Fortunately, we have progressed beyond that.

Eta: I know of a group here in Texas called Anime Hell that shows stuff like this and mocks it. I'm gonna forward that URL to them and see if they'll do this.

Oh, something else...

The first report to link smoking to cancer was done in 1895. That was four years before the invention of aspirin. The tobacco companies repressed this information until 1965, when Reader's Digest refused to play along and published the results of another study that linked smoking to cancer.

[Guest Agaib]

What keeps me from *actively* wanting to quit? The idea that I'm somehow morally inferior to people who don't smoke. If I'm going to quit, it's going to be because *I* want to quit and *not* because of bans, surgeon generals' warnings, or some social attitude of moral superiority.

Hmm... well this is a touchy subject for Me. What is morality? Whatever one defines for themselves as the generally correct course of action given a certain situation. Let us define morality in a very neutral way that excludes major religious/cultural influences. One must do what does not harm others rather than what does harm others. Obviously the correct course of action isn't always clear using this reasoning. How do I know if something harms someone? If I do harm without intending to do that make Me immoral?

Ok, so the second question is actually quite inane because its using "moral" as a word full of different connotations to spur a response rather than actually using reasoning. Which isn't possible because the reasoning would depend on the situation.

So lets take the topic of smoking... known facts

Smoking causes damage to oneself (this is almost certainly true, please don't believe otherwise. If you would like proof is should be easily available through the countless experiments and studies that have been conducted)

Smoking can cause direct damage to others if they inhale it on a regular basis. (This is as true as statement one)

Implications of the morality (as defined above) of smoking:

One Can Harm others

One can influence others into taking up the habit

Loved ones can suffer emotional distress due to the physical harm caused by cigarettes

One can support cigarette companies (through the purchase of their product) so they can further ad campaigns, thus increasing the smoking population. (By the way, I'm not saying theres some horrible looming conspiracy of cigarette companies trying to take over the world. They by nature advertise and push their product, which happens to harm people.)

There is no real doubt that smoking causes a sort of immorality as defined above. Don't take this as a personal attack on you, but despite what you may think, your smoking likely does cause harm on others. I don't know you, I don't know if you're a completely "virtuous" person other than (perhaps) your habit of smoking. I won't claim that smoking is the biggest part of you that you should work on so you don't cause harm to other people, It's important not to fool yourself into thinking that you're "morally" immune. You may define morals differently than I do, you could define morals as "whatever the bible says" or "whatever mentor/teacher/parent/historical figure X said." Regardless I'll refrain from telling you that you're completely wrong or right. This is just something I think that you might benefit from thinking about. You could be somebody that really is a great person and not somebody that one should waste their breath trying to improve.

Anyway, please don't be offended. Just don't assume that your smoking only affects you please, even if you smoke alone.

[StoryJunkie]

as with any writer, it was himself he was spoofing. Walt smoked like crazy.

*listen to my wisdom and insight, and be in awe...*

Your souls are mine.....

[Guest Yhitzak]

Even as a smoker, I do try to be courteous. Because I know there are a great deal of people out there who don't smoke, I really do try to keep it to myself to the very best of my ability. I don't smoke within at least twenty yards of a door if I'm out in public, and if I can't, I find a group of other smokers to be a part of (it's easier to avoid a whole group than a handful of scattered people). I don't smoke around people who are courteous enough to ask me not to. And, as a smoker, it really pisses me off to see other smokers so blatantly careless about other people's feelings on the matter. As so many on this thread have pointed out, many people have allergies and asthma, and even more than that have a plain dislike of cigarette smoking. There's a certain level of courtesy involved in this matter, both for smokers and non-smokers alike.

As for the immorality thing... Agaib, you're probably right. The moral issue herein is the issue of prudence regarding poisons. It's the same moral issue that must be considered with alcohol, drug use, sexual expression, and anything else that chemically affects or influences the body. (I qualify sex in with this because when one has sex with another person, bodily fluids [living cells] are exchanged, and these exchanges can often change the way those bodies work.) It's a moral issue that I struggle with daily, but not just because of the media or whatever else; it's because I, too, have a soul and existential anguish.

About hurting other people with smoking... small beans. People do far worse things to themselves and each other than smoke (factories and cars are at the top of my list). I'm not denying the legitimacy of this argument (as such), but I don't think it's as big a deal as this thread would have anyone believe. Something no one has yet mentioned: if you don't like it, you don't have to do it and you don't have to be around other people that do it. Ever. There is a level of personal choice involved in this situation, not the least of which being that non-smokers have (and have always had) the option to walk away from smokers and vice versa. There have always been non-smoking bars, restaurants, strip-clubs, and centers for people to go to.

[Guest Agaib]

I can't say I disagree Yhitzak. People do a lot of bad things that hurt others, I'm not wise enough to guess which ones should be focused on or which ones should be considered more important.

With regard to Myself, I like to think that I just do what seems right to Me. It always makes Me uncomfortable to dictate My own feelings to others though, simply because it happens to Me unfortunately often. I will admit, however, somtimes I'm pretty sure I'm right.

[DarkCabaret]

Meh, I smoke so I have no opinion! LOL I would almost say it's pro in a way considering some of the characters do it, but at the same it's not. (I'm confuzzled!)

[dazzledfirestar]

I smoked for a very long time, and I always laugh at non-smokers (not ex-smokers, but non-"I never did"-smokers) that try to say, "I know it's hard, but it's good for you." If you haven't quit you don't know. Trust me. Why did I quit? I got pregnant. That's it. That was the only thing short of death that was going to get me. Will I start up again? Who knows. I'll try my best not to, but I can't make any promises. Why? Because it's a drug... people are addicted. Stop preaching at them and do something constructive about it. Believe me, quoting death rates and diseases... not constructive. In fact, even now, nine months out, I still find that most "quit smoking" ads only really make me want a smoke. My father quit smoking twenty six years ago (not because it was bad for his little baby daughter... but because he figured out he couldn't hold me, a beer and a cigarette at the same time, so one had to go.) and he still gets cravings.

As for the cartoon, well, I saw it when I was a kid (that was in the eighties, btw, so lets not have any pretenses about how we're so much smarter now than they were back in the evil fifties and sixties) and to be honest, I didn't remember it until about half way through. I didn't start smoking because of Goofy... and any child that does, well... That's called natural selection there, folks.

[Nanaea]

I won't say that I understand, simply because I was a casual smoker; beer in one hand, cigarette in the other ... or when I was with friends who smoked ... or when I was really stressed out.... I didn't really have any trouble 'quiting.' I still occasionally get the urge to have a cigarette, or dream about having one. That's something that never really goes away from what I've heard.

My grandmother smoked for 60 years. She quit when she was 82 because her sister had to quit - gave it up just like that, no problem. Weird huh?

I've always wondered how women can quit smoking while they are pregnant, but go back to it once the baby is born. It doesn't make any sense to me. Obviously it's healthier for the child if mom stays smoke free (dad too!), even after the baby is out of the womb. All I can offer is moral support, and hugs.

[Leonhart29]

I am now going on almost 3 weeks of no cigs... and it's harder now than it was when I was pregnant. I quit cold turkey then and didn't look back. I actually had my first child naturally without drugs so that I could WALK OUT THE DOOR AND HAVE MY FIRST CIG IN 7 MONTHS! That's called addiction. When I was pregnant with the twins I did the same thing (but remembering the pain from the first one I had to wait until the epi wore off to have my first cig after yet another 7 months)... The funny thing? My doc told me that the stress I put my body under by quitting like I did may have been one of the causes for the premature birth and low birth weight. But I'm glad I did it.

The urge to pop a butt between my lips and take a deep drag will be here for the rest of my days, I know this and I'm willing to put up with it. The reason for me quitting this time? I wish it was because I wanted to be healthier, or that I hated smelling like menthol cigs... but because I met someone who made me WANT to quit - for both of us and for my kids.

I happen to agree with Daz - quoting stats at me and badgering me with the whole "You'll live 10 years longer if you quit" doesn't help - all it does is make me want to act like Denis Leary and say Fuck you as I light up and blow smoke to the heavens. Never mind the fact that the person means well - it’s an addiction that rules over you. My father (who at one point actually did some of the other “recreational” drugs in the 60’s) likens quitting smoking to going through withdrawals from alcohol or heroin. It’s that bad.

Let me suffer in peace - it's all I ask. You don't want me to drag you into my hell just because you couldn't keep your mouth shut about "how proud" you are of me. It was stupid of me to start at 19 and I'm righting that wrong on my own... I don't need to be hit over the head to make me say "You're so right! I was being a putz and should have listened to the great you all along." I’m doing that to myself enough without being reminded about it every time I turn around.

[Madame Manga]

There have always been non-smoking bars, restaurants, strip-clubs, and centers for people to go to.

Well... I may be a little older than you are, because I recall a time when there was practically no such thing as a non-smoking restaurant. (I don't generally patronize bars and strip clubs, so I can't say much there.) Even in California, twenty or thirty years ago most restaurants had nothing better than a non-smoking section. That usually had no physical separation from the rest of the place more formidable than a half-height glass partition. The same went for airplanes, stores, bus stations, offices, even schools -- just about anywhere other than around hazardous materials. If you didn't want to barricade yourself in your own house 24/7, you'd inevitably be around smokers.

As I mentioned, my workplaces for a total of three and a half years were pretty tobacco-infused; at one of them, out of about twenty employees, I was virtually the only person who didn't smoke in the back rooms. And this was a fancy delicatessen where we handled food constantly! Believe it or not, it wasn't against health codes back then.

At the time, I didn't object much, because the danger of second-hand smoke wasn't in the news yet, and I didn't want to come off righteous and priggish. It wasn't like quitting and finding another job would have automatically gotten me out of the reek, so I didn't even do that. Anyway, I was young and had good lungs at the time.

It might be hard to grasp now, but that was what nonsmokers were expected to do -- put up with it as nothing more than a minor nuisance, or else get labeled as a buttinsky hypochondriac weirdo. That's not an exaggeration. In the late 1970s, I got the shit taken out of me by everyone present for giving a mild rebuke to a classmate who lit up backstage at our high school theater. So I shut up and breathed through my mouth.

The reward for my polite stoicism is an extremely heightened sensitivity to tobacco smoke... so far. I'm glad that no one really has to put up with breathing the crap now, but it took a lot of lawmaking and attitude adjustment to get that accomplished. Don't take it for granted!

-MM

[bookworm51485]

Damn it, the moment I get to a place where I actually have a fast enough internet connection to see the video it's gone Is there another link somewhere else?