Taking it Like a Man

[Iggy_lovechild]

Well, I recently got some concrit on a lengthy one-shot series that I have posted on another site. I won't go into details, but let's say i was dealt with some harsh truths.

I didn't need to read these reviews, they were regarding the rejection of the story into the site's featured listings, and I'd asked to know the specific reasons why it did not meet with the criteria. In other words, I'm not complaining and can actually understand the points that were brought up.

What bothers me, is my initial reaction. It hurt and it upset me even though i had steeled myself and had imagined myself ready for anything. So how does one deal with this? Does it eventually get easier or will it always be a tough pill to swallow? I know I'm going to have to get used to criticism if I want to write professionally and see this very emotional reaction as a weakness that needs to be excised.

[Guest Adara]

I think that on some level it always effects us. Regardless of how seasoned a writer we may be. Perhaps the only aspect of the rejection that changes is how fast we pick ourselves up after being knocked to the floor, so to speak.

[Iggy_lovechild]

Well, I'll admit, I'm still feeling a little off-kilter, but I'm no longer trying to hold back shameful tears, if that's what you're saying. It was all perfectly valid critisism, so I'm pretty much over that, but there are still some things that I need to think about, ya know.

I just finished revising the story in question, so I feel like I've accomplished something at least.

[Guest Yhitzak]

I'm going to sound like a totally cheesy dork right now, but this line came to mind as I was reading this: Out of life's school of war: what does not kill me makes me stronger. As is the case with criticism of *all* kinds. As writers, I think that we are quite sensitive to the expressions of others, as it is within a writer's nature to bleed his/her soul onto whatever medium he/she chooses. When someone criticises our blood, we become hurt. This is a natural reaction, and quite better than the alternative. I can't tell you how big a turn-off it is for me to go to any sort of fiction site and find that the reviewers are too kind to be properly critical, or (on the other side of this coin) to be unforgiving harpies. I've noticed so very, very many, many writers that don't know how to take this criticism; they take is a personal affront instead of the critique of their work that it is. Getting upset is better than getting angry, in other words. Getting upset leads us to revise our stories, make them better, and -hopefully- to just become better writers as a result.

Dealing with criticism is difficult, especially when said criticism is accurate. I somehow get the impression that you will succeed as a writer, regardless of what your critics tell you, and here is why: you seem have the ability to discern on your own what makes you a good and bad writer, as well as the desire to become better. Continue to evaluate this criticism, but realize that this is not an evaluation of you as a person.

[Iggy_lovechild]

Dealing with criticism is difficult, especially when said criticism is accurate. I somehow get the impression that you will succeed as a writer, regardless of what your critics tell you, and here is why: you seem have the ability to discern on your own what makes you a good and bad writer, as well as the desire to become better. Continue to evaluate this criticism, but realize that this is not an evaluation of you as a person.

I think I took it all so hard because it wasn't at all what I'm expected, the direction the critisism went. I'm generally hard on myself as a writer and I'd be the first person to tell you exactly where I need to improve in my writing.

It's odd, it seems my style and voice evolves and becomes surer with each fandom I tackle.

[Guest echtrae]

It's odd, it seems my style and voice evolves and becomes surer with each fandom I tackle.

Experience breeds confidence and a stronger sense of self.

[ChimaeraChan]

Mmm, I think it will always sting, no matter how much you prepare yourself and harden your heart to that sort of thing. Your writing is like your baby; no one wants to hear their kid is no good. But it needs to be said for the good of that piece of writing, and because of that, you can look forward to improving and creating something completely beyond your current level.

I'm the sort of person that doesn't give any sort of in depth critique unless I feel the story is worthy of being fixed, and I have a feeling that most helpful critics are like that. Be glad someone took the time to read your full story, and tear it apart to show you those places that are broken. As writers, we can be too close to our writing, and can't see the flaws all the time, so someone else has to do the nastiness for us and pull our fics apart. You're allowed to sniffle at the initial pain, but after, it's your decision to either ignore the help, or take the hard road and grow as a writer.

So... and this may sound asinine, but I don't want to hear the 'oh, it's perfect, don't change a thing' comments. I want the, 'nice, but you forgot ___, and ____ confused the hell out of me, and do you really want to approach it like that?' comments. It's boring to feel like you have nowhere else to go as a writer. Sure, you can enjoy that feeling of other's loving your work, but what's to keep you from improving if you feel like you've hit some imaginary peek? If you were content with your current level of writing, I imagine it wouldn't have hurt so much to have your work criticized.

Good luck with it, and don't be discouraged. ^^

[NightScribe]

OMFG, harsh criticism is starting to roll in for my most recent update. And I sit here, shaking my head, saying "you don't fucking get it." I'd post one of them, but either the reviewer deleted it, or I accidentally did when I tried to post a response. That was weird. Anyway, they basically said that after the previous chapter, the follow up was a cheat and a cheap trick. Yeah, kiss my ass. That's my response. (That is not the reply I left, btw).

I addressed this on my LJ, after the first review which was a "huh? wtf is going on? I don't get it." Then I got the "I'm a cheater." In my LJ, I said I was sticking to my guns, I'm not changing a thing, because I believe that strongly in the story. Nanaea *huggles* was very supportive, in spite of my ranting. Then I saw the second one and thought, "do I have to get all analytical, philosophical and spell everything out?"

I'm not hurt by any of it, but I am frustrated. I'm seriously considering taking a looong hiatus, cooling off (perhaps even finishing the story but not posting for a while) and see where my head's at in a couple of months.

Maybe I'm wrong and they're right. In the past, I've accused myself of thinking too much. Maybe I have with this, (the story) but my gut is telling me no. I'll live, but it's going to be a rough next few days.

[Guest maiafay]

I know how you feel, and for one day, I didn't take the constructive critique I received from a editor friend very well--and threw a temper tantrum. I cried and whined in my LJ and screamed...and rolled on the floor--lol. Until I finally realized she had some points and then worked on those areas.

My writing is stronger for it...but her delivery sucked. She was very sarcastic in some parts and talked to me as if I was a moron. Of that--I had a problem with and I told her so. She apologized, but she thought she was fine with the way she corrected. Either way, I don't care how 'right' anyone is when they review your work, they should sound respectful.

So...this brings me to what did they say? I'm curious and want to read this series to gauge for myself if their crits are valid or not. Sometimes it's good to get another opinion.

Regardless, my advice is to just try and move on--take what you need from the advice/crit, and move along. I've learned the hard way through people saying things to me--that it doesn't help getting worked up or defensive over a stranger's opinion. I just tell myself to look at all points, and glean what I think are valid corrections--disregarding some"opinion" critiques. Sometimes people confuse your style with what THEY like--and if your style is not preferable to them, they might nit pick on that. Me personally, I only pay close attention if they mention plotholes, grammar structure, use of too many adjectives, adverbs, excessive typos, dialogue errors, and repetitive paragraphs--and problems with flow. These things I would listen to no matter how shitty they talked.

All else though, take with a grain of salt.

[Guest maiafay]

I addressed this on my LJ, after the first review which was a "huh? wtf is going on? I don't get it." Then I got the "I'm a cheater." In my LJ, I said I was sticking to my guns, I'm not changing a thing, because I believe that strongly in the story. Nanaea *huggles* was very supportive, in spite of my ranting. Then I saw the second one and thought, "do I have to get all analytical, philosophical and spell everything out?"

I'm not hurt by any of it, but I am frustrated. I'm seriously considering taking a looong hiatus, cooling off (perhaps even finishing the story but not posting for a while) and see where my head's at in a couple of months.

Don't worry about some readers not getting it. Especially if you're getting metaphoric and complex...some people want an easy read and others are just plain dense. It doesn't matter how well you construct a plot--someone won't get it or will get the wrong idea. usually I ignore these people unless I get more than three...then I usually swallow my pride and revise for clarity. But these instances are rare...and it usually takes a lot for me to revise based on someone's opinion.

[Theankh]

I think the problem with reviews can be how they're worded. You can have valid points but deliver them horribly, like Maiafay said. Sometimes it's really hard as well, to review something that sucks very very much and not be a little bit patronising. You just want to turn around and say 'why are you a writer?' but that helps no one. And then you have to try and put into words why exactly it sucked, which is also hard!

But then as a writer I understand that bad reviews hurt. I hate reading my reviews sometimes because I've had nasty ones before and they really do make you feel awful. It's as if someone just turned around and said 'you're shit, stop trying.' I don't think it gets easier either. You work hard on something, of course it'll hurt when people don't like it. But hopefully those people will be nice and actually critique, rather than being nasty and moving on

[Avenging Angel]

Reviews are like parents: they can make you happy/sad or they can make you madder than hell. Either way, i try to take all reviews as a good thing. Even if they didn't like it, or thought it sucked, you at least know that it made enough of an impact to cause them to review. I think the most heart wrenching bad reviews I've got have been from the videos I do for YouTube. Now, when someone criticises those, I immediately want to rip their heads off. But, instead, I usually calm down enough to tell them that "If you hated it, why watch it?" If people hate my writing, why keep reading, whay read at all. I try to leave positive reviews, and only point out flaws if it will help the story make more sense. So far, I haven't pointed out any flaws. My advice, remove all bad reviews and keep the ones you like. It's what I do.

[SoftObsidian74]

Rejection never gets easier....just gets familiar. My first rejection hurt. Writing is so personal. But most of the rejections I've gotten had really constructive feedback. One of them didn't really have any good reasons, so it was shady and I'm not sure I would want to post on a site like that anyway. It only makes you stronger in the end but yea, it always sucks. lol

[bitBlackmage]

After having a piece of work rejected at a random site for hentai art, I can say that it felt like a cold knife plunged into my heart. However, while I'm still in pain, I'm still trying to fix my piece and resubmit it. In the mean time, I asked what needs work.

The same goes for writing. I got a few criticisms telling that I need to work on this or that, but I get through it somehow. I won't say I've become stronger. I've definitely healed though.

Edit... Though I do regularly get flames.

[MadoushiClef]

I hate not being able to give people gushing reviews of awesomeness. I want nothing more than to finish a story and only be capable of giving a one-word review: Brilliant. I want to be swept away in a cascading seduction of a beautifully written story. I want Aristotle to be right: Plot. Character. Theme. Diction. (music) Spectacle.

A good story well told.

It's a lot to ask for.

Most people can get even a basic plot down. Since AFF is mostly 'adult stories' and by that it sort of (unfortunately) translates to sex and porn, plot tends to get slightly forgotten... Which is a shame because that leaves Goggle to find something with plot, written with intelligence for us Yaoi writers since FF.net decided to oust us. We didn't move over here like I'd thought people would. Which leaves a lot of PWP which is fine if that's what you are looking for. Gods above know I've hunted for good porn more than once but really, I became a writer because it was another outlet for me: I'm a storyteller. It's GOT to be a good story. You can't have a story without plot.

Characterization in fanfic is a mercurial thing. It can be very hard to agree with characterizations just for the sake of a kink or the advancement of an unlikely (or AU) plot. I write AU with Zalman's Heart and it's a disheartening thought to know someone is going to complain that our characters are COMPLETELY OOC and we stole from some 50+ different shows characters everyone loves and we had to have them. But we did that knowingly. We even warned people shit was different. But character interpretation is a hard thing to argue. 'Cause once you write them they are no longer the author's character, they are your character and hell be damned no body gets to touch them. But if you are going to go with radical changes I would request an explanation for the change from the show's character to your character somewhere. Your audience is reading the story for the show, characters, or the interesting summary tag. (Did I miss any? Sex, maybe?) The changes shouldn't make me want to withdraw my willing suspension of disbelief. I'm a yaoi fanfic writer, I have a lot of suspension capacity.

Themes: have one. Please. Somewhere. It's a through-line, it's the bow all the threads at the end of the story get tied up in. It doesn't have to be AMAZINGLY complicated. Teamwork. Love. Hate. Pain. Good guys should always win. Good guys aren't as good as we want them to be. Bad guys can be good guys. I don't care what it is, so long as you the author can pinpoint what the theme is if I have to ask.

Diction is my biggest pet peeve and the hardest to talk to writers about. A lot of it has to do with age, maturity, education, and style. Young writers tend (operative word) to not have the skill to convey a captivating story. Practice does make perfect only if the feedback helps him/her mature. If you can't read something because it so poorly written it won't matter the amazing-ness of the plot or characterization. Education is a huge factor. Younger writers sometimes just haven't been given the information, the structure, why the structure is as it is, and how to use language. I started writing fanfic at 14, I read a lot, I paid attention, but until college my writing was immature because I didn't understand the structure, why, and how to break it to tell the story better. Until college I didn't timeline, research, or pound out plot charts because I didn't know I had to. How do you explain to a 14 yr old that you need specifics? Their story wasn't exact enough? It had plot holes or the time-line didn't work? That their description (if they have those) of the Corinthian column is actually a Roman composite? Try convincing some 14 year old kid to do their homework on what they are writing about. Or they'll just dump excuses on style. Style should elevate the story, not disconnect the readers. Maturity is know the difference in all these things and others I won't get into. It's that personal strength to know what matters to your story most and how to best showcase it. It's the ability to have someone ask questions in the margins and being able to give them answers even if it's, "I don't know, I'll have to look it up/decide." I always want more description; my mind needs that moving picture. Unless the person has that genius style to describe a setting in eight words that give me the tone and mood and time and place. But that in itself is a mature style of a highly educated person. That precision word choice is a kind of dedication that can't be asked of most adults, never mind teenagers.

Music doesn't apply much to fanfic, except in song fics or fics inspired by songs. The later is easier to deal with than the former because it is almost impossible to read the entire fic at the pace the song plays. Poets, on the other hand, can make music of spoken word.

Spectacle for me is mostly the sex. Generally a story doesn't need sex, it's just window dressing to draw people in, I think. A small hook that hopefully the plot will override as the reader continues on.

When I get a review that is negative I go over my goals I had set for my story. Did I meet these goals? Are they pointing out a plot problem? A characterization screw-up? Was my writing style boring? Too descriptive? Did it not have enough sex? What was the point? Did I make that point? Is this thing the reviewer didn't like something I could work on? As a writer, what do I personally think I need to develop? Or has my ego grown so big that I don't think I need to work on anything and that I'm PERFECT? Do I think my story meet all the Aristotelian requirements for a good story well told? I once had someone leave a review that they didn't like the kind of magic system I had used for a DNAngel story. That was all s/he said. There was no hint on what s/he thought would have made for a better system to use, or what could have been altered to heighten the tension or keep the tension and change the aspects s/he didn't like. I was more angry that it was a useless one-line than it was negative. The only thing I could think of was that in his/her religion, ritual magic is used and my corruption of it for the story insulted them. A haphazard guess at most; I only had one line to work with.

It's hard dealing with insults and negative comments but the maturity of a writer--or indeed anyone--is to grasp the root of what is being said of their skill and use that to overcome something that might not have even been in your consciousness before. That's one good thing about having a beta that works on a different plain then you; they will see and know things you would not even consider.

[Guest Monsterking]

this is what i say brother you deal with it in your own way we have no buisness telling you on how to deal with your reviewers though i do admit you might have been the victem of an unusualt constructive flamer/troll?

sorry if i sound like an ass hole man peace out and may the light of day forever guide you on your journey of life "WOOOOOO!!"

[tambrathegreat]

I didn't need to read these reviews, they were regarding the rejection of the story into the site's featured listings, and I'd asked to know the specific reasons why it did not meet with the criteria. In other words, I'm not complaining and can actually understand the points that were brought up.

I've had a problem getting my stories posted on any of the moderated sites. I had a featured story, but couldn't get anything past the fifth chapter posted. The moderator kept saying I had not fixed the problems, I needed to get a beta-reader, etc...

I did what they asked, finally got the first story posted and went through the same thing with the next story I posted, even though I was still using the same beta-reader and had gone through grammar books to beef up on my comma decorating tendencies. I finally gave up after reaching the fifth chapter in the new story and not getting any further. I don't know if the moderator the site hated my style, my story was crap or if I just wasn't getting what she was trying to say. It did hurt. She had some good points about specifics, but when I kept getting dinged for things I had just corrected it became ridiculous. I pulled the stories and won't try to post with that moderator again. I know it was a juvenile thing to do, but I do know I hate going to a site and attempting to read a story only to find that it is unfinished and will remain so.

BTW on a related, sister site, I've had no problems posting stories.

Anyway, I do understand the frustration and hurt you felt. The story you wrote is your baby, and it's not easy to see the baby rejected.

[Avon]

Sometimes it can be tough to take a harsh review. I haven't gotten one over the internet yet, but I have gotten MANY in person. It's especially tough when the person doing the review does not stop to think about the emotional impact their review has on the author. Then the valid points brought up get lost in harsh wording, and it makes it difficult to not treat the review as an attack.

We authors would all be better off if reviewers would politely tell you that something needs improving. I think it would help if people read the reviews that were already made, to avoid "parroting" about the same mistakes over and over. It can get old seeing the same thing mentioned over and over again. Stop telling me about old mistakes and let me know about the new ones please. Five people have already stated that problem A needs addressing, I don't think a sixth person needs to tell me about it when I probably have another problem that needs dealing with.

It never gets any less painful to get a harsh critique regardless of how many you get. The only thing that gets easier is picking yourself up afterwards.

[draygon_icewing]

How do you deal with reviewers that have no sense of subtly? I use subtle cues and clues and foreshadowing a lot in my stories. You actually have to sit down with your thinking cap on and READ and not skim through. I hate it when someone reviews that they just didn't get what I was trying to say after they admit that they just skimmed through real fast. Then they have the nerve to tell me that I am leaving important information out when I include it all in the personal thoughts of the characters. My characters have thoughts and feelings, not just words. I also remember a beta telling me early on that it is better to 'show' what you mean and not 'tell' what you want to say.

Some of these people are just out for a cheap thrill and care nothing for substance and all the work that goes into fleshing a scene out with the characters thoughts and feelings to 'show' what is going on rather than just 'telling' it in dialogue or outright narration.

[Keith Inc.]

How do you deal with reviewers that have no sense of subtly?

Many of my reviewers, here and elsewhere, do not share the fetishes i write for. If the review mostly centers around 'WTF is the deal with _____?' i find it easy to ignore. I mean, they're not who i'm writing it for.

Then again, if fellow fetishers wax rhapsodic about a story, i can never be sure if i wrote a good tale, or if i just hit their desires right on the button.

Some of my reviews have clearly missed something subtle i was trying to do, or a trick i was playing or trying to be cute. I do realize that most of modern entertainment puts in a lot of effort to make sure the audience isn't lost. Softballed plots, clear villains and simple moral depths. So if something goes over a reader's head it might be because they've been trained to sit back and wait for the plot to be fed to them. But it might be that i was being TOO cute. I do review what i did, how i did it, consider how i might fix it. I have changed a few things here and there from this.

But often I have decided that i was happy with what i did.

Which is mostly what matters, right?

[Satai Delenn]

I didn't need to read these reviews, they were regarding the rejection of the story into the site's featured listings, and I'd asked to know the specific reasons why it did not meet with the criteria. In other words, I'm not complaining and can actually understand the points that were brought up.

I've had a problem getting my stories posted on any of the moderated sites. I had a featured story, but couldn't get anything past the fifth chapter posted. The moderator kept saying I had not fixed the problems, I needed to get a beta-reader, etc...

I did what they asked, finally got the first story posted and went through the same thing with the next story I posted, even though I was still using the same beta-reader and had gone through grammar books to beef up on my comma decorating tendencies. I finally gave up after reaching the fifth chapter in the new story and not getting any further. I don't know if the moderator the site hated my style, my story was crap or if I just wasn't getting what she was trying to say. It did hurt. She had some good points about specifics, but when I kept getting dinged for things I had just corrected it became ridiculous. I pulled the stories and won't try to post with that moderator again. I know it was a juvenile thing to do, but I do know I hate going to a site and attempting to read a story only to find that it is unfinished and will remain so.

BTW on a related, sister site, I've had no problems posting stories.

Anyway, I do understand the frustration and hurt you felt. The story you wrote is your baby, and it's not easy to see the baby rejected.

If you're talking about the site I'm thinking of, then I TOTALLY understand where you're coming from. There's a site out there that is just way too snobby and cliquish and nitpicky about the rules they have for accepting stories. I am all for proper grammar and spelling, etc., but when they start rejecting you because they disagree with your comma placement, and if changing the placement of said comma changes the meaning and flow of the sentence, then I am going to refuse to do it. Sometimes they understand, but most times they don't, and it really does get tiring trying to constantly change things in your story to suit a Moderator. Especially if you see other stories that have flaws that are more massive than what they're criticizing you for, and yet those stories made it through the submission queue. Kind of makes you go, "Hmm..."

Btw, no, it's not a juvenile thing to do. If a site is going to make it THAT difficult to get a story up, time and again, then why shouldn't you pull your stories and move them somewhere else?

Anyway, as others here have said, as a writer, we (well, I certainly do) pour our heart and soul into our writing. To see it meet with criticizm, harsh or not, it hurts. And I know that even if I know someone means well by the criticizm they give, sometimes I have to take a step back, let everything sit for a day (two if I'm really angry), and then come back and post a reply thanking them for their viewpoint, and either explaining why I did something as I did and seeing their point that maybe it should have been done differently, or I thank them and explain that this is how I intended it, and it's staying as is. If I get someone I know who I sent my story to for a lookover before posting, and they come back at me with concrit, I'll take a day or two to process what they said, and see if they're right (and 9 times out of 10 they are), and I'll thank them and then go to work to revise the story to make it better. None the less, it still hurts, lol. However, often it will make me a better writer for it (I hope).