What To Do With Those Younger Readers?

[Guest ShinigamiShimai]

Have any of you got strange emails from kids who like your stories? And how does it effect your stories, if at all?

I know that on this site you don't allow people under the age of 18 to come to the site, but that doesn't stop them. I personally am not much for rating books, but I find it rather disconcerting when I get an email from a 12 year old that claimes to be getting nightmares from my tales. I warned them of the graphic nature of my stories and few seem to listen. The worst was a parent yelling at me because my lesbian stories were influancing her 13 year old daughter and turned her gay. Another young girl said how much she wanted to be like one of my characters.

The more I found out young readers were reading these stories the more worried I got about writing sex scenes in the story. I found myself stopping whenever I came to something extremely sensual or blantantly sexual. Edited out alot of the major scenes until I realized that I was censoring my own stories so just added in more warnings and rewrote in all the violence and sex that was part of the characters development and plot.

So any of you find yourselfs worrying over younger readers or do you not really care?

jaa ne

Kat

[Guest Zimarah]

If it's going up on this site, I'm not censoring a damn thing.

I have yet to recieve any emails, but if I did I wouldn't let them bother me. If kids are too darn stupid to read the warnings about not being here, then they can have their nightmares.

And I hardly think that a piece of fiction will turn a person gay. The parent was probably just looking for something to blame.

[Guest Adara]

Again, I think the fault lies at parent's feet. Honestly, to blame a story for their child's sexual orientation is just as laughable as parents blaming song lyrics for their kid's violent behavior and drug addiction.

I find that many children now adays are being brought up in this rose colored world. How many times did you 20+ while in grade school ever lost a competition? I've lost plenty in my day. It was a disappointment, but hey, I tried better next time. Now a days "EVERYBODY" wins, making kids so guillible it's embarassing.

I don't think you should censor a bloody word if you stated what your story entailed. It is your freedom to express yourself; as it it's damned parents responsibility to teach kids what's fantasy and what's real.

Not to mention to blame the influence they have on their children for their "misbehavior". Rather than what something their tweens found on the internet while they, the parents, weren't paying attention.

[Iggy_lovechild]

I honestly am not aware of how old many of my readers are. I think I have a few underage readers, but not too terribly so. Maybe 16 or 17, if they're telling the truth.

Back when I was posting on ff.net a lot, I did worry about the age of my readers. Perhaps this might sound a little bit prejudiced, but I highly doubt the squeeing reviews "zomg! rite mor pleeeez!" or "/insert pairing here/ is soooo hawt!" came from anyone close to my ripe old age of 25. So I toned down the sex scenes a little bit. Eventually I got sick of censoring myself and switched over to mm.org and later started posting on AFF.net as well.

I still post on ff.net a little bit (I actually get reviews in my tiny little fandom over there. Not many, but enough to make me extremely happy), but nothing graphically sexual.

I can't really stop underage readers. I mean, they have a computer and access to the sites so...*shurgs* But I haven't gotten any weird e-mails aside from a few twits that contacted me to ask if I was adding any new chapters to a completed story (why can't they read the story status line?).

All I can do is label things properly and post them on the appropriete sites, hope my readers are mature, even if they may not be quite the right age. I think maturity really does become a factor as well....

[NightScribe]

If your stories are posted on AFF, there is no need to censor them, as it is a site intended for adults only. Any kid under 18 shouldn't even be here in the first place. Also, if they leave a review on the site and e-mail you as well, revealing their age, report them to the admins. If they have an account here, they'll get their asses kicked off, pronto.

Whenever I hear of underagers on the site it burns me. They think they're mature enough to handle what they read, but aren't mature enough to realize they are jeopardizing the site. And as for them having nightmares, this is going to sound incredibly cruel, fuck them. It just proves that they don't belong here.

As long as your story is properly coded, disclaimed (if fanfic) and has a more detailed warning in an author's note (if needed) you don't have to censor anything. The only thing that worries me about underage readers (aside from them not supposed to be here) is when they rip off a story. Or write shit and then rate and review it themselves as being absolutely the best thing they've ever read on the site. Repeatedly. Don't laugh, that's actually happened. And the big, bad, meanies drove one or two of them off with honest reviews.

I hate to keep harping on this point, but if you can help nail an underage user, do it. I despise those punks. (And actually, I'm not usually this venomous, but this is the one topic that gets me going. Sorry about that).

[Guest lightgoddess]

AMEN NIGHTSCRIBE!! I could not have put it more eloquently than she did. If these underage readers are here at AFF and emailing you, then don't hesitate to nail their arses to the wall! Hell, I'm sure they are stupid enough that if they don't volunteer their handle and where they read it then you could ask and they'd tell you, then you could nail their arses to the wall.

As far as getting emails from parents of underage readers, I'd quickly let them know that if they monitored their children's internet time better, then they would not have any problems with their children reading clearly adult stories on clearly adult sites. It's not your fault their kids have decided to 'become gay or lesbian' (meaning that a 13 y/o child who clearly knows more than mommy thinks about sex has decided to experiment). If mom and dad paid more attention to little Susie instead of sitting her in front of a computer, then they might be able to shape her life a little better. They might have a little more influence in their child's decisions.

Do not dare censor yourself when you are clearly labeling your stuff as ADULT! And, especially do not censor yourself on an ADULT WEBSITE! If your violent stories are giving kiddies nightmares, then the kiddies probably shouldn't keep reading your stuff. It's not rocket science, it's common sense. I'd quickly tell the emailer to stop whining.

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

Everyone else pretty much said it.

Thought, about that parent who said you made her 13 year old gay...

Hello, the girl is thirteen years old and curious about her sexuality and body. If the parent doesn't tell her anything, she'll get it from somewhere else. and either way, a 13 year old who's experimenting with girls will not necessarily be a lesbian, or even bi for that matter. It's experimentation. That's all. And seriously, a bloody story won't make her a lesbian. No, not with the whole trendification of homosexuality in the media...

[Guest Agaib]

To be honest what I find more annoying are the random people that add Me to their contact list without warning and for some reason expect to be treated like a close friend...

But I also get emails from young readers on occasion, but I just ignore them and leave them in My trash bin.

[EveKnight75]

There's not much I can add here. Like everyone said - be as explicit as you want/need and remember to put the proper labels on. Then again, your trepidation will ensure that (the labels).

Right now, I'm finally getting some free time to start working on my fics again. The hard part is writing two different versions of the same chapter. I'm posting my adult fics both here and on FFN.

The version I'm writing for this site can be as explicit as I want it to be. In fact, I'm taking advantage of that and trying to write scenes that are more explicit than what I'm used to writing, but trying to keep it somewhat realistic. It's to build my writing skills.

On the other hand, I have to censor things for the FFN version. The maximum I can go is a soft R, so I have to watch what I write. The hardest part is making sure that the two versions aren't too different from each other.

If a minor reads the FFN version, there's not much I can do. If they read it here, I can give them a verbal lashing. The same goes for whiny parents. Now to get repetitive.

You have no responsibility to censor yourself on this site. You have no responsibility to cater to a puerile audience. You do have a responsibility to post a piece of fiction that is well-written to the best of your abilities. Just because others don't try to do that doesn't mean that you shouldn't. If upholding this responsibility includes writing a bunch of graphic sex scenes to add a dimension of vividness to your story, then by all means go ahead. You have my support.

[Guest ShinigamiShimai]

Thanks everyone.

I wife told me to post here long ago when she noticed just how adult my stories are. She actually cringed at some of my discriptives in my horror story, nevermind the other parts of my tales. Kind of depressing when your own soulmate is scared of your stories...

@ Aqaib - I had problems like that for a long time. I used to leave my AIM nick online while I was writing manga and the number of young nutters that kept contacting me. One girl who was 14 told me she loved me and that I was not allowed to date until she was of legal age. I was 27 at the time and told her to go away. She really put up a fit. I changed all the nicks online and keep them secret, giving them out only to friends and such.

EveKnight75 - I tried to make and teen and adult version of my stories because FictionPress will not allow adult stories and it really didn't work out well. I cut out all the major sexual parts of ASD Book 2. One of the characters has severe problems and leaving out that she violently masturbates and is very sexual really did not allow the readers to understand her better. Trying to make two versions really messed me up and I finally gave up on the teen version a few months back but still find myself thinking about those teens that are reading these stories. More so when one of the 16 year olds was the little sister of a friend. Talk about a struggle.

Anyways, my wife is making sure I don't edit myself but it is still hard.

Well thanks again.

jaa ne

Kat

[Guest Masatar_Torlyl]

There's no way to stop these kids from reading what they think they want to read. It all comes down to parents and I realize that many parent work two or three job, kids are becoming more and more computer literate (as in knowing the ins and outs of computers) and people are unwilling to accept that many kids are handling these ideas better than some adults...

... still, don't yell at us authors-- esepcially when we put labels denoting what will be in our stories!

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

There's no way to stop these kids from reading what they think they want to read. It all comes down to parents and I realize that many parent work two or three job, kids are becoming more and more computer literate (as in knowing the ins and outs of computers) and people are unwilling to accept that many kids are handling these ideas better than some adults...

[rant]

Yeah, can you send some of those comp-literate and "mature" brats this way, please? It seems as of late that far too many people have been using computer iliteracy as an excuse for the progressivly deteriorating quality of their work. Certain areas that were filled to the brim with wonderful stories by wonderful authors are now overflowing like a toilet after the inlaws were over. I never thought I'd find quite so much SHIT being spewed out by so few people.

Furthurmore, a good amount of the toilet cloggers are kids in their early-mid teens and the only evidence of it they give is the atrocious quality of their work and less then coherant responses to concrit.

As for stopping kids, well, parents have no excuses for their kids getting on this site. It's clearly labeled as an NC-17 site, which means ADULTS ONLY. This means that if you have Windows ME AT LEAST, one should be able to set up individual user accounts for their kids with internet restrictions with relative ease. Even if they don't, they should at least have the presence of mind to drill it into the minds of their children that fiction is just that, FICTION. I'm sick and tired of this whole "GTA made me do it!" bullshit. If it took something like that game to push your kid to steal a car, you as a parent should be ashamed of yourself. I play all kinds of violent video games, watched all levels of violent movis growing up and was even exposed to all types of REAL LIFE, UNCENSORED, UNCUT violence as a child as a result of the area I grew up in. You don't see me jacking cars and slicing people to shreds! Why? Because my parents always made sure they knew what I was exposed to, even if they weren't always around, and made sure that I understood that what was done in movies stayed in movies.

And to be honest, if so many people are so against violence in the media, why haven't they attacked Looney Tunes, Tom & Jerry or anyhting else like that? These cartoons constantly portrayed excessive violence. And hell, maybe people should be worried that Bugs Bunny is influencing homosexuality with all that crossdressing and what-not. And what a bout Tweety?! Tweety's a BOY who I swear I, and most others, thought was a girl for the LONGEST FUCKING TIME!

[/rant]

[EveKnight75]

Interesting fact: the producers of the Looney Tunes were aiming to make Tweety an androgynous character. At first, they were thinking of giving him an obviously masculine name (Chester, was it?). They ditched that and went with Tweety because that name doesn't denote a gender.

So they wanted us to wonder whether Tweety was a boy or a girl. As for Bugs, apparently Lola was introduced for an extra reason. They tell us that they wanted to add a female to the group in order to lure in more female fans of the Looney Tunes. I say that's BS. One of the stronger underlying reasons was because they wanted to dispel myths about Bugs homosexuality by introducing a female love interest for him. They kept Lola on, but nothing other than platonic has occurred between the two after Space Jam.

[Guest Adara]

[rant]

Yeah, can you send some of those comp-literate and "mature" brats this way, please? It seems as of late that far too many people have been using computer iliteracy as an excuse for the progressivly deteriorating quality of their work. Certain areas that were filled to the brim with wonderful stories by wonderful authors are now overflowing like a toilet after the inlaws were over. I never thought I'd find quite so much SHIT being spewed out by so few people.

Furthurmore, a good amount of the toilet cloggers are kids in their early-mid teens and the only evidence of it they give is the atrocious quality of their work and less then coherant responses to concrit.

As for stopping kids, well, parents have no excuses for their kids getting on this site. It's clearly labeled as an NC-17 site, which means ADULTS ONLY. This means that if you have Windows ME AT LEAST, one should be able to set up individual user accounts for their kids with internet restrictions with relative ease. Even if they don't, they should at least have the presence of mind to drill it into the minds of their children that fiction is just that, FICTION. I'm sick and tired of this whole "GTA made me do it!" bullshit. If it took something like that game to push your kid to steal a car, you as a parent should be ashamed of yourself. I play all kinds of violent video games, watched all levels of violent movis growing up and was even exposed to all types of REAL LIFE, UNCENSORED, UNCUT violence as a child as a result of the area I grew up in. You don't see me jacking cars and slicing people to shreds! Why? Because my parents always made sure they knew what I was exposed to, even if they weren't always around, and made sure that I understood that what was done in movies stayed in movies.

And to be honest, if so many people are so against violence in the media, why haven't they attacked Looney Tunes, Tom & Jerry or anyhting else like that? These cartoons constantly portrayed excessive violence. And hell, maybe people should be worried that Bugs Bunny is influencing homosexuality with all that crossdressing and what-not. And what a bout Tweety?! Tweety's a BOY who I swear I, and most others, thought was a girl for the LONGEST FUCKING TIME!

[/rant]

I wholeheartedly agree with you.

We all grew up with some sort of violence. Be it movies, cartoons, or the bloody news! I find that parents now adays find anyway to blame for their failures in child rearing. It isn't rocket science, this rearing of children. But I think parents now adays are so concerned with giving them "everything" they never had, the forget to instill in their brood the stuff our parents drilled into us.

I don't believe it has anything with computer literacy or lack thereof. Parents have to take the initiative to raise their children ALL THE way, not just whenever they have the time. There are programs to check up on them, if not, put a bloody password on the computer and don't let them on until you get home from work. Don't let them have computers in their rooms, keep it in a "family" area, where the screen is easily seen by anyone in the room.

In any case, what the hell ever happened to parents who "never let you do anything?" I don't know about you guys, but I appreciated my parents giving me the proverbial slap upside the head and the, "What the hell were you thinking?"

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

In any case, what the hell ever happened to parents who "never let you do anything?" I don't know about you guys, but I appreciated my parents giving me the proverbial slap upside the head and the, "What the hell were you thinking?"

See, I was pretty much allowed to do as I wished when I wished to do it simply because my parents trusted not only my ability to take care of my self, but my own intelligance. They knew (or, at least my mother did) that I wouldn't be out getting stoned out of my mind or stealing cars simply because my mom trusted that she raised a smart kid. Not to say she never said "No" (in fact, she said it quite often...) but she didn't stop me from doing things that she herself did at my age. She supplied me with the violent movies and the erotica at 12 because she knew I could handle it and at least this way she knew what I spent time doing. If I had found this site at twelve or thirteen, she didn't really mind because she KNEW she could trust my judgement.

In this day and age, from what I can tell, there aren't many parents like that. They're either trying to over-sterilize EVERYTHING (literally and figurativly) or not paying any attention to their kids at all. It was always strange to me to have friends 3 and 4 years my junior in High School who wandered the streets till dawn while at the same time friends who were my senior within the same range who had to be home by dar or they'd be grounded. It made no sense. And then, when these people got away from their parents they'd go fucking crazy. One would think that people would begin to understand the necessity of actually taking the time to learn the limits of THEIR children, and not the limits of general kids. Every child is differant. Some are like me and can be left to their own devices for the most part without getting into trouble. Others need to be watched vigilantly.

Let me not get on the whole spiel with teenaged pregnancy. I can go for MILES on that topic...

[Guest Pink Lace]

I had to be home by dark (up to high school). It nearly killed my mom when I took night classes in college roflmao! As for the kids, one of them ripped off some concepts of mine but I can't even tell for sure because I refuse to read more than 5 sentences of his/her godawful writing. "Purety" my ass!

No one has emailed me but I do get creepy reviews because I don't feel the need to censor my fics. Hardcore all the way.

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

I had to be home by dark (up to high school). It nearly killed my mom when I took night classes in college roflmao! As for the kids, one of them ripped off some concepts of mine but I can't even tell for sure because I refuse to read more than 5 sentences of his/her godawful writing. "Purety" my ass!

No one has emailed me but I do get creepy reviews because I don't feel the need to censor my fics. Hardcore all the way.

Hey, they may be your concept, but at least it ain't your God-Awful writing!

[EveKnight75]

In this day and age, from what I can tell, there aren't many parents like that. They're either trying to over-sterilize EVERYTHING (literally and figurativly) or not paying any attention to their kids at all. It was always strange to me to have friends 3 and 4 years my junior in High School who wandered the streets till dawn while at the same time friends who were my senior within the same range who had to be home by dar or they'd be grounded. It made no sense. And then, when these people got away from their parents they'd go fucking crazy. One would think that people would begin to understand the necessity of actually taking the time to learn the limits of THEIR children, and not the limits of general kids. Every child is differant. Some are like me and can be left to their own devices for the most part without getting into trouble. Others need to be watched vigilantly.

Did I mention that I can't stand self-help books and seminars on "How to Raise Your Child/Teen"? They lump us all into one category and then teach parents how to "deal with us" and how to "solve our problems".

Um, no. You can't stereotype us because we don't all fall into a stereotype. In fact, the majority of us don't fully fall into a specific stereotype when we're at home. Children and teenagers are multi-faceted individuals, same as adults.

What works for one person will not work for another. The parent has to take the time to really get to know the child, and vice-versa. It's never simply about the parent-child authority bond; it's also about how the two personalities interact.

You know how my mom dealt with me after my dad died? We went to visit one of her best friends in Michigan, because said friend had a personality very similar to mine. (Ironically, I was named after her). She helped us clear up a lot of issues.

Parents need to take out time from their extremely busy schedules to spend quality time with their kids, and plopping down in front of the TV together does not count. Something like a restaurant outing, where you can talk, does count.

I also think parents need to worry more about violence and less about sex, especially in North America. I like the fact that this is precisely what they do in Europe. Sex is a natural part of life, and so is curiosity. It's not something evil (unless it's rape). I know it's nerve-racking to give the talk, but teens need to know.

My advice to parents - allow your kids to visit informational sites about teen sexual health. It takes some of the pressure off. Right from the start, make sure you teach them how to discern right from wrong, and fantasy from reality. That way, when you catch them on a site like this, you can explain why they did something wrong, punish them reasonably, and rest assured in the fact that you raised a good kid. Not a perfect kid, but a good kid, because you know that they won't act on the bad stuff no matter how curious they are, because they're not completely stupid. (At least the majority aren't, I hope)

After that, please don't flame us. Don't leave a nasty review. Our e-mail addresses can be viewed on our profiles. E-mail us and let us know that you caught your kid, a minor, on the site reading our work. We'll take note of it and work with you in whichever way we can, short of censoring our work. We don't post here just so minors can read our work. Quite the opposite, in fact. I don't think I'd mind a 16-year-old reading my fics here, but I'd much rather have them reading it on FFN. That's why it's posted there and non-members are allowed to review.

(sigh) Why am I ranting here? It's not like I can get across to the parents who need to read this. The parents on this forum actually get it and don't need to be told by me.

[Nanaea]

(sigh) Why am I ranting here? It's not like I can get across to the parents who need to read this. The parents on this forum actually get it and don't need to be told by me.

That's right, you're preaching to the choir babe. Oh, and I couldn't agree with you more.

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

It's always saddened me thast most parents treat their kids like their stupid or retarded or something. Just because they're younger and inexperienced doesn't mean that their brains don't work. Most children see alot more than we adults, and many understand more instinctively, as well. I've always tried to talk to my nieces and nephews as though they were adults, modifying what I say only if I know that they're too young to understand technical terms. Because I expect them to think and act as though they're mature, they generally respond by doing so. And they appreciate the fact that I don't talk down to or patronize them just because they're kids.

Totally soul mates XD I always hated it when people lumped me into a stereotype apon meeting me then responded to me accordingly. Like "OMG! She wears all black and snarky T-shirts! She MUSH HATE authority. Let me treat her like a DELINQUINT! That will certainly solve whatever problem she has!" -stabs NYC school system-

Huh.. what? ^___^; Just venting...

[Guest Masatar_Torlyl]

[rant]

Yeah, can you send some of those comp-literate and "mature" brats this way, please? It seems as of late that far too many people have been using computer iliteracy as an excuse for the progressivly deteriorating quality of their work. /rant]

Clearly I didn't mean language skills when I said conputer literate. When I said computer literate, I meant l;ittle buggers like me who know the in-and-outs of computers and disable/enable computer stuff in a lot of ways... like little old me.

[Guest ShinigamiShimai]

wow... never thought this thread would go on like this *blinks*

You know I never considered my writing as adult until my wife told me to write it the way I wanted and she read it over my shoulder. Now she teases me about it at the same time as making me be sure to add in warnings. We'd make weird parents.

"I don't care if Mommy writes that stuff you are not reading it until you are older."

*sigh* Hell she won't even read it because I got to detailed once. She'll read the erotica just not the horror stuff.

The thing I find annoying is the moment I started writing lesbian stories my stuff got labeled as a M Rating. Then when I added in the slightest bit of sex into the mix the story ended up R no including the violent bits. Why are parents more concerned with kids reading gay stories then violence anyways. Not like reading them is going to change your sexuality.

Well thanks for all the comments. Guess this place really does suit my stories after all.

jaa ne

Kat

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

wow... never thought this thread would go on like this *blinks*

You know I never considered my writing as adult until my wife told me to write it the way I wanted and she read it over my shoulder. Now she teases me about it at the same time as making me be sure to add in warnings. We'd make weird parents.

"I don't care if Mommy writes that stuff you are not reading it until you are older."

*sigh* Hell she won't even read it because I got to detailed once. She'll read the erotica just not the horror stuff.

The thing I find annoying is the moment I started writing lesbian stories my stuff got labeled as a M Rating. Then when I added in the slightest bit of sex into the mix the story ended up R no including the violent bits. Why are parents more concerned with kids reading gay stories then violence anyways. Not like reading them is going to change your sexuality.

Well thanks for all the comments. Guess this place really does suit my stories after all.

jaa ne

Kat

People of terrified of homosexuality cause a few books said it was evil. Why? Because it didn't make babies and if monothiesm was to flourish the population had to flourish.

That, and if a homosexual relationship could be proven to work out fine then it would mean that the bible was wrong, that children and gender rolls really aren't all that important for a healthy realationship and infact, maybe healthier.

"2 million years of human evolution and this is what we get. You morons." --Max, Dark Angel

[Guest Agaib]

The problem is a powerful anti-sex public mentality. People are afraid of sex. Why? Because thier mommy told them to be. It's really quite sad how we try and perpetuate this constant super conservative view on sex.

On violence, I hate it when some dumb conservative organization cites some psychological research that supposedly "proves" violent video games cause violence. I'm familiar with the said research and the only thing it proved was that people were more agressive shortly after playing a violent game (as if that were a big surprise). There's no strong research indicating that long term violent games cause long term violent behavior. Sure blowing off the heads of aliens for a few minutes can get someone pumped, but it doesn't make them a more violent person in the long run.

Often these groups will also cite some dumbass piece of shit correlational study that supposedly means that if you do X, Y will happen. Correlation doesn't equal causation and it never will. Sometime they ought to try showing Me some real science, instead of this crap thought up by conservative think tanks.

[EveKnight75]

Adults talking down to kids and kids hating it? Count me in. I'm not a warm or fuzzy person by any means, but kids tend to like me. Why? Because I have never talked down to them once, no matter how much younger than me the child was.

Other adults would get pissed off at me for doing so, take me aside and give me warnings about how it's inappropriate and the kids wouldn't understand. Bullshit! I hated it when adults talked down to me or acted as if I wouldn't understand. If anything, kids understand better. Most adults lose their sense of empathy and their minds narrow as they grow up, and start to regain their empathy and open-mindedness as senior citizens, when they realize how foolish they had been. Sad but true.

As far as I'm concerned, I have reasonable limits. I don't bring up sex with pre-pubescents. I don't ever curse in front of anyone (I don't curse out loud, period.). However, if a kid's parents are arguing a lot, I will explain the concept of divorce if the kid asks about it. Boo-hoo to the aunts and uncles who disapprove about bringing up the topic. The kid matters more and I'm positive s/he will need to understand the concept, and the difference between argument and divorce, if only for peace of mind.

That's right, you're preaching to the choir babe.

BTW, if some irate parent starts to harass me, would the choir be willing to back up my vocals? Just asking for future reference.

As for the video game concept; I watched Bowling for Columbine in a high school psych class. I may not like Marilyn Manson's music, but I think I fell in love with his verbal eloquence after watching that interview. The only reason they didn't attack Ozzy Osbourne instead is because the parents grew up with him. If anything he's worse because he bites the heads off live animals as opposed to Manson who'd rather not harm a living creature.

"2 million years of human evolution and this is what we get. You morons." --Max, Dark Angel

Despite what we'd like to believe, human beings are not a rational species on the whole. I'll have to go with Max on this one.