Oh, There Is Hope!

[Guest Evil_Labs]

I picked that line up from Rowan Atkinson. lol

Black Adder, Season Four

[Guest Mike256bit]

Hah! Black Adder rocks my socks.

[WotanAnubis]

Ah yes, painters of that famous masterpiece "Bag Interior".

[englishwitch]

Blackadder is cool. except that final episode in Balckadder goes Fourth, it always makes me feel sad.

[Guest Evil_Labs]

Well, typically, he did die in the end of each series. Except the Third, where he usurped the position of Prince of Whales, lol

[Iggy_lovechild]

That's kind of a sick coincidence.  The one girl's maturity and message is very well done, and then the one saying teens should stay in is written like a colorblind hedgehog in a bag. 

Bah, it's just a difference in maturity.

One person (girl?) understood the there were rules that needed to be enforced and bowed out gracefully.

The other little twat sits and whines incoherently with all those stupid little arguments: Teens know just as much about sex as adults now! They're just words, what harm am I doing?! My parents don't care! It's not fair!

Yes, yes, I realize this and if it weren't against the law, I'm sure the only thing the mods would be worrying about around here would be content and idiot trolls. But guess what: It's the law and no matter how anyone argues, whether it be intelligent or insipid, these kids need to suck it up and deal.

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

It brakes the mind to realize that they're both about the same age...

Shows a total differance in brainpower, don't it?

[StoryJunkie]

Look guys, as much as I might agree with everything that's been said, when there are pregnant 14 year olds getting pregnant from other 14 year olds, you've got to wonder about the double standard. In the "old days" 21 was the "age of consent, and it was lowered to 18 in WWII in order to allow more "men" into the army, not because they thought an 18 year old was more mature than a 21 year old (And this didn't even affect the drinking age or the age to vote). If you think of it from that perspective, you've got to wonder how screwed up everything really is.

Those are the two extremes, and I think that 18 is high for some and low for others, while at the same time, realizing that the line has to be drawn somewhere. My own experience? without the internet at my disposal, I've found playboys laying around, I've read questionable material when I was 14. (1974 if you are wondering) I've taken books with blatant sexual passages out of the library when I was in grade 7, and the librarian who manually processed the transaction didn't bat an eyelid. If it wasn't there, I'd of written it. (Mind you, I couldn't get past 2 paragraphs before falling over)

So, although you might think there's hope for the site, that it won't be abused, I think that it may work for a while, then, well, like Dark Avenger said, they just learn to diguise themselves better. That's reality. And don't let the lazer sights land on you, b/c, well, I don't think anyone here is an angel. I certainly wasnt'

[Guest DarkAvenger]

I certainly wasn't an angel either... at 16, I found out about the world of internet porn. I clicked right through the "i'm over 18" buttons... know why? Because I thought it would only get ME in trouble to do that. And back then, it would have only been my ass in a sling and perhaps my parents. But, if I'd known then what I know now, I'd have immediately stopped and waited on the very DAY of my 18th birthday and then gone right back to doing what I had been before.

If I'd known the site could be shut down, the owners fined, that it was a real LAW and not just a suggestion, then I'd have damn well followed it.

I'm the one of us mods who pushed big time to get the letter we sent out to mention all of those facts - fines, jail time, site shut down, law, etc. Why? Because I hopped that a precious few of them would be just like I was at that age; curious, thinking it was a ruler slap on the wrist if they got caught, and willing to obey an honest to god LAW. And guess what? There's a few of them out there. On occassion I get a letter in reply stating they will stay away and they are sorry and had no idea of the things that could happen because they were here. And those are the ones that we don't ever find 2, 3, 4, NINE times. >.>

Laws were more lenient when I was a teenager. Plain and simple, we're heading into a conservative future at breakneck speed. I'm not happy, none of us are. But it's not our place to make or change the laws.

The underagers are unhappy with the laws and scream that fact at us? I tell them to go to their local senator, congressman/woman, etc and complain until it gets changed. *shrug* Enough of them do it and come up with damn GOOD reasons why and surely someone will hear them. But, you know what? They're too fucking lazy to do it.

Me? I wasn't lazy at that age or prior to that age for that matter. I stopped our senator of our state from passing a law that would legalize prostitution at the age of 12. No joke. He personally wrote me back, in pen (not typed up) telling me that my letter to him and article in the newspapers editorial column had made him reconsider the law and that he was now opposing it. And guess what? It never passed and he voted 100% against it AND used the vast majority of my arguments as points for why it shouldn't be. I was getting letters from random people all over the state for years after that, thanking me for having such insight at the age of 12.

*shakes head* If they'd get off their asses and make legitimate arguments and present them to the people who can actually DO something about changing the laws, then maybe we wouldn't have to police the damn site all the time. Oh, and btw, we've caught them as early as age 10 on the site. What the bloody hell does a 10 year old need to be doing on this site?!

</rant>

[Guest Evil_Labs]

Bah, it's just a difference in maturity.

Aye, that was part of the point. I just found it amusing that the one who defended under 18s was so much more poorly articulated than the one who left.

[Iggy_lovechild]

I certainly wasn't an angel either... at 16, I found out about the world of internet porn. I clicked right through the "i'm over 18" buttons... know why? Because I thought it would only get ME in trouble to do that. And back then, it would have only been my ass in a sling and perhaps my parents. But, if I'd known then what I know now, I'd have immediately stopped and waited on the very DAY of my 18th birthday and then gone right back to doing what I had been before.

If I'd known the site could be shut down, the owners fined, that it was a real LAW and not just a suggestion, then I'd have damn well followed it.

Well...I've admitted many a times that I was a little smut junkie as a teenager (things haven't changed much, just a bitter awareness of quality over wank material). I also must admit that when I was 11 or 12, I got ahold of my mom's copy of "Women on Top".

As for the internet, I was pretty much of age when I started going on, and I can't say for sure if I'd known about the law's true ramifications that I'd have avoided the sites. Probably. I wouldn't have had to wait for long.... (Though considering my rebellious streak, I don't really know... I suppose that makes me a really bad person....)

As for the ten-year-olds, I have no fucking clue what they're doing reading erotica. Shit, I have even less a clue as to why they would be writing it.

Blame it on society?

(is getting sick of blaming it on the parents, cos the parents don't seem to really care, do they? /bitter much?/)

[Guest Melody Fate]

Actually, ten is about the age when a lot of kids get curious about sex. Not really ready to try it, but curious. If no one has told them earlier, that's about the age kids start asking question about how one makes a baby and aren't willing to settle for, "A man and a woman share a very special love."

The net is a vast source of information, the problem being that it's very hard to monitor people. And while I don't want to see the internet turned into a steril little environment so parents can use it as another electronic babysitter, I do understand that it's a bit hard to keep kids from looking at the "wrong" stuff. Kids are curious and "You must be 18 to be here" is like putting up a huge red button and saying, "Please do not press this button." Some just have to press it.

I admit, had the net been around when I was younger? Yeah, I would have checked out sites I wasn't supposed to. The problem is finding the solution that doesn't turn places like this into some "we need your credit card and drivers license number and everything else you can think of to cover our butts."

I suppose the first step AFF could take if they felt it was necessary to clamp down on security is to make it so that in order to access anything on the site you had to sign in. While some kids will just lie, it might stop a few, especially if you put some pretty dire warnings when they sign in. Again, when I was a kid, if I'd seen just a "Click here if you're eighteen, click here if you're not." I would have clicked "I'm eighteen." If I had to sign up for something where I swore under penalty of law, that I was eighteen, I would have been hesitant. Something saying "And if we find out you lied and your information is false? We will be contacting your ISP, blocking your address and notifying your parents that you violated the law" I would have been scard. Even if I was pretty sure they wouldn't do those things, I'd figure it wasn't worth the risk.

[Guest DarkAvenger]

Kids are curious and "You must be 18 to be here" is like putting up a huge red button and saying, "Please do not press this button." Some just have to press it.

Funny... I used to have this keyboard thing when I was younger that had Elmo's voice on a red button that said "Please do not press the red button" and guess what I did? From the age of 4 until the thing broke (around 12 or so) I would press that red button, over and over and over. Not really because it was the red button, but because I liked elmo's voice and frankly, telling me not to press it was like motivation to do it again, just to see how far I could push the dude. Unfortunately, he never screamed at me, or I wouldn't have broken the dang thing from pressing it so much, lol.

As for the "clamping down", yes, that is the next step basically... however, the step after that is to get a legally binding contract that must be filled out each time you wish to enter the site. That's gonna cost us a pretty penny though. ($600, so if you wanna donate to the omg, keep these stupid kiddies out fund, for the love of everything fanfiction, please do. *begs*)

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

Funny... I used to have this keyboard thing when I was younger that had Elmo's voice on a red button that said "Please do not press the red button" and guess what I did? From the age of 4 until the thing broke (around 12 or so) I would press that red button, over and over and over. Not really because it was the red button, but because I liked elmo's voice and frankly, telling me not to press it was like motivation to do it again, just to see how far I could push the dude. Unfortunately, he never screamed at me, or I wouldn't have broken the dang thing from pressing it so much, lol.

As for the "clamping down", yes, that is the next step basically... however, the step after that is to get a legally binding contract that must be filled out each time you wish to enter the site. That's gonna cost us a pretty penny though. ($600, so if you wanna donate to the omg, keep these stupid kiddies out fund, for the love of everything fanfiction, please do. *begs*)

...dude...

I say CCverify. A total bitch if you don't have one, but yeah...

[Guest Melody Fate]

...dude...

I say CCverify. A total bitch if you don't have one, but yeah...

Problem with CC verification is that a lot of folks won't do it. I won't. Not because I'm worried that the folks in AFF are going to steal my number, but just because I don't want to give out my number.

If all they're doing is asking for proof of age, there should be a couple ways to verify it, including CC. If they asked me to send them a photocopy of my license with my birthdate by snailmail, I'd be more comfortable with doing that, because I'd just blank out my address. That's not important, the important thing is that they've got a copy of a document I sent them, with my birthdate, and a state ID number.

Besides, I've got friends who give their kids a copy of their Mastercard with the same number on it. What's to stop a kid from using one of those and saying that they are their mother or father?

[Guest ChibiShiva]

I'd be up for CC verification amonst other ways. I happen to have a Visa card, and I buy things online - never had a problem, so I guess AFF wouldn't give me any either.

The problem with legal documents sent by mail, however, is that we're not all in the USA. I'm in Canada, and out legal documents are not the same. So imagine if you get thousands of legal documents from 100+ countries... ouch. Might be hard and slow. Just our government is a helluva slow with them... *cringe*

But I'll admit it's a good idea nonetheless. It would let people who don't have a credit card to be able to join the site.

[Nanaea]

Besides, I've got friends who give their kids a copy of their Mastercard with the same number on it. What's to stop a kid from using one of those and saying that they are their mother or father?

Melody's got a good point there. Besides, anything that could be used to identify me personally and allow the powers that be to track me down is a big no-no in my book. Call me paranoid but I know what that what I'm doing here (fanfiction) isn't exactly legal in the strictest sense of the word.

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

Melody's got a good point there. Besides, anything that could be used to identify me personally and allow the powers that be to track me down is a big no-no in my book. Call me paranoid but I know what that what I'm doing here (fanfiction) isn't exactly legal in the strictest sense of the word.

Good point, but at the same time, it's not like you're making money and MOST creators (such as JKRowling) may not LIKE fanfiction, but also won't attack their fan base. Honestly, if they wanted to sue us, they'd do it by now. Not to mention that they wouldn't even get enough money off us to pay their lawyers.

And the thing about parents handing their kids mastercards, While I agree it wont to much to keep off the site, it will give use more of a leverage against legal battles however if they bring up these brats who use their parents' cards. It's as easy as "Look, we can't get a whole Private Investigation team to track who sent us what!"

The same goes as sending a copy of your ID or Passport. They're easily forged in a copy with Photoshop and ANYONE could be sending them to you. Either way there's no full-proof method beyond actually going to people's homes and forcing them to sign a contract in person and in front of you, and even THEN there are holes in the system.

[Iggy_lovechild]

CC verify would solve the problem.

But then I wouldn't be able to post anymore because I don't have one....

[redsliver]

Ditto

[polywolly]

Aside from the fear of identity theft and the general fear of passing out personal information no matter the level of security, a valid point has been made that CC verification or any other besides the "yes, I'm 18 or over" button we all have to push would alienate a large group of posters.

Many people either can't get or don't want a credit card. I certainly wish I'd chosen the latter. After the verification process was implemented, those authors would go elsewhere and the same underage readers and writers would go right along with them.

It's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. (God forgive me for using that tired cliche.) Verification would rid us of the underaged, or the underaged without access to Mommy or Daddy's wallet, as well as alienating a large number of folks who have every right, and every wrinkle, to post their stories.

I say that if we have to pay taxes, concern ourselves with sun block, worry about our fiber intake, and consider purchasing skincare products emblazoned with the words "age defying", then we should get to post. Who's with me?

[Guest Melody Fate]

There's a site I went to once that asked for your State ID number in order to get in. (They had something you had to enter if you weren't in the USA too, but I can't remember that) I can't remember the site, but it seemed to be a separate company that ran the verification, vs. the folks who owned the website. And, every single time you went to the site, you had to enter the information.

The problem with any password system, no matter how well you verify it, some idiot will find their way around it, then they'll give out how they did it (Name used, password) so their thousands of friends can use it.

If they do decide to go with CC, I would understand, but as several have pointed out, we'll lose folks and it probably won't get rid of every underage person. I can understand why AFF might have to do that, but if they do, I hope they also come up with an alternative method, such as sending a copy of your ID.

Yes, I understand that kids could "borrow" their parent's ID and send it off, but I figure that woudn't happen very often. If parents have given their kids a copy of their credit card with their number, it's going to be a lot easier for them than to have to arrange to "borrow" the ID.

[Bargle5]

The two main characters looked at each other

they said "i love you"

they took off their clothes

they had sex

the end.

It was a fic of that type that got me to start writing fanfic. I remember thinking, "On my worst day I can still write better than that." I don't claim to be a great author, but I can come up with a bit more plot than that, even in a PWP.

The problem is though, that too many of these kids are stupid.  They can't keep their underagedness to themselves, they have to start bragging about it.

We've had this come up at times at another fanfic site I go to. One of the regulars on the message boards let slip in an IM session with a mod that she was underage. Even though she was a much liked member of the community, she got the boot. She was quite mature for her age and I had even betaed a story for her before her true age came out.

There have been several young people, especially from other countries, that can't seem to understand that it's the country that the site is hosted in that sets the standard and it's the site owners that get in trouble if they aren't keeping the underage out. It doesn't matter if you think you're mature enough or your parents don't mind. They're not the ones that will be paying the penalty.

I wish we could have a quality standard, sure, but I also know that some stories, no matter how bad they are, are actually the result of a lot of work.

There was a story here on AFF that got many bad reviews. There were a few, including one from me, that tried to give constructive critism. The author took the story down, rewrote it and put it back up.

It was still awful.

At least he/she tried.