Chekov's Gun: Does Anyone Still Use It?

[GeorgeGlass]

On 6/22/2017 at 9:22 PM, PenStoryTeller said:

“That shot’s impossible to make without a targeting comnputer”

“No one can pull the sword from the stone”

“Atlantis is a favble and legend, reaching it is impossible”

When you get right down to it, an awful lot of scifi and fantasy stories are basically about someone breaking the established rules of the story's universe. In a way, that’s what sets these genres apart from all the others: They have their own rules, and those rules can be broken.

21 hours ago, mastershakeme said:

In mind when i go through the next part of my story. I doubt i can be entirely original, is that even possible at this point? Is there any new ground to touch in this day and age? But I don’t wanna sound like i’m writing a gosh darn myth lol. 

Being completely original is overrated. Just as impressive, IMO, is putting a new twist on an old trope, thereby messing with readers’ expectations in a way that they will appreciate and enjoy.

[mastershakeme]

10 hours ago, PenStoryTeller said:

Don’t worry about sounding cliched but like anything else. Be aware of it. Once you are, you can use it toshape and guide reader expectations, and then skillfully subvert or redirect them. It’s one thing to talk about the sword that could never be held or pulled from the stone. It’s another thing entirely to make the story hinge around it.

See what I’m saying?

You can make it seem like the all important thing is the five finger death punch. or you can subvert it and make the death punch irrelevant by introducing a gun. In which case your Chekov’s Gun has become a McGuffin or a Red Herring.

Literary tools are fun to play with if you pay attention to what you’re doing. It’s why I liken them to tools. There are more ways to use a Hammer than most people can dream off.

What I love about writing is that its so easy to learn along the way… I think i’m a genius right now, but I thought that 10 years ago when I wrote my first story in high school. Yeah… I wasn’t a genius! Lol, I have proof of how dumb I was, actually  

Anyways, i appreciate all the wise advice. I didn’t even know i was writing with literay tools, i just thought  that’s how stories are set up! and they are in a way… But honestly, i just think you shone a spotlight on why great writers are great. It’s because they totally fuck with your mind

The way over any obstacle in life, and in this case, getting over cliched literay tools  is to be aware of your failings – if they can even be called that. Because the next time you approach a silimar plot, or any plot really, you’ll tackle it differently. Eventually, through practice, you’ll get over the hurdle  I get what your saying!!! 

3 hours ago, GeorgeGlass said:

Being completely original is overrated. Just as impressive, IMO, is putting a new twist on an old trope, thereby messing with readers’ expectations in a way that they will appreciate and enjoy.

That’s what I think too… My favorite movie genre is horror and lately, it’s not the random crazy new shit they come up with that scares me… those stories usually seem to fall victim to the old tropes anyway. I like when they take a typical story and add a twist! Suddenly it becomes terrifying  Babadook for example… The story of a single mother struggling with her socially awkward child suddenly becomes a nightmare when the character from his bedtime story starts to stalk HER. I love that one  

I swear you answered my question perfectly… nope! There’s no new ground. our responsibility now is to tweek and twist everything we’ve got so we can make new shit. 

[PenStoryTeller]

NO problem. That’s the thing about writing. Keep your eyes open and you;lkl always find something interesting to play with.. Even the story structures we see so commonly aren’t that way because that’s how it’s done, they’re that way because that’s what publishers can easily package and market. Inb fact you’ll find that accounts for a lot of trends.

 

Take the old gem that you need a strong opening paragraph, chapter, page. That’s not something the readers decided. Nope. In truth, readers re quite okay with stories that take their time to start slowly and build. That rule is basically there to make it easier for publishers to comb through their submission piles. They can’t afford to waste time reading 3 chapters in. If you don’t grab them wiuthin 10 pages, they toss your manuyscript to one side and grab the next one in the pile.

 

As for literary tools. Well , nowadays people call them tropes but i call them tools. The same way, grammatical constructs and punctuation are in fact tools It’s why they say a goiod writer is well read. Reading and thinking about the works of others, gives you insight as to how the various tools are used to different effect and how you might use them in your own work.

[Desiderius Price]

9 hours ago, PenStoryTeller said:

Take the old gem that you need a strong opening paragraph, chapter, page. That’s not something the readers decided. Nope. In truth, readers re quite okay with stories that take their time to start slowly and build. That rule is basically there to make it easier for publishers to comb through their submission piles. They can’t afford to waste time reading 3 chapters in. If you don’t grab them wiuthin 10 pages, they toss your manuyscript to one side and grab the next one in the pile.

Maybe it’s just my attention span, but I need the story to draw me in quickly, because otherwise, I’ll put it aside.  In the era of you-tube/TV/movies, perhaps the attention span’s shorter and thus the publishers are well justified in wanting that early hook.

[Anesor]

Perhaps a little, but editors and publishers were harping on it in the 80’s, long before social media impacted attention span.

[PenStoryTeller]

On 25/06/2017 at 6:51 AM, Desiderius Price said:

Maybe it’s just my attention span, but I need the story to draw me in quickly, because otherwise, I’ll put it aside.  In the era of you-tube/TV/movies, perhaps the attention span’s shorter and thus the publishers are well justified in wanting that early hook.

 There have always been people like yourself though. Even back in the days of Hans Christian Anderson himself.

The point I was making is that many traditional publishers tend to focus on that particular pacing  practice. Thus making it the one people are most familiar with. My point was that the possibilities available are greater than what we actually see presented, especially in mainstream traditional publishing.

[Desiderius Price]

8 hours ago, PenStoryTeller said:

 There have always been people like yourself though. Even back in the days of Hans Christian Anderson himself.

The point I was making is that many traditional publishers tend to focus on that particular pacing  practice. Thus making it the one people are most familiar with. My point was that the possibilities available are greater than what we actually see presented, especially in mainstream traditional publishing.

Maybe hook is the wrong way to describe how I approach it, more like glue.  I generally want my first sentence, first paragraph, to have some traction on the reader’s attention, to pull them into the story.  I figure that I’ve got a thousand pages to describe the growth of tree rings in intricate detail, so I can spread it out throughout the story.

[Anesor]

I think like that too, it’s almost like internal marketing. I have to catch and keep the readers’ eyeballs.  have to get their interest quickly with the immediate events like being locked up, a setting that is familiar, a feeling, a bit of sass… later they can discover the plot or true love. But my story has to intrigue them enough to read page two. But I have problems with external marketing, I posted a Star Wars/Gilligan’s Island mashup parody comedy but it’s sitting like a dead duck. (it was a plot bunny that would not go away)

Checkov’s Gun is also a plot hook as the readers will wonder if and how the broad ax mentioned over the mantle might be used: heirloom, decoration, weapon, fireplace, or…?

[PenStoryTeller]

On 29/06/2017 at 8:34 PM, Desiderius Price said:

Maybe hook is the wrong way to describe how I approach it, more like glue.  I generally want my first sentence, first paragraph, to have some traction on the reader’s attention, to pull them into the story.  I figure that I’ve got a thousand pages to describe the growth of tree rings in intricate detail, so I can spread it out throughout the story.

That’s a good way to look at it. Just don’t front load. The last sentence of a story is immeasurably more important than the first.  It’s a bad thing to turn the reader away at the begining. But, and I can attest to this, the worst thing you can do is end your book in such a way as to make the reader regret the time spent reading.. The first , the reader will think it’s just no their kinda of story and move on to something else. the latter , they get emotionally invested and follow page after page only to be met with  a disappointing ending.

Imagine if Tolkien had ended The Hobbbit with the whole adventure being just a dream in a sleeping Bilbo’s mind My own point of view is that you should give the reader an honest picture of what kind of story they’re in for so they can opt out.

[Desiderius Price]

7 hours ago, PenStoryTeller said:

That’s a good way to look at it. Just don’t front load. The last sentence of a story is immeasurably more important than the first.  It’s a bad thing to turn the reader away at the begining. But, and I can attest to this, the worst thing you can do is end your book in such a way as to make the reader regret the time spent reading.. The first , the reader will think it’s just no their kinda of story and move on to something else. the latter , they get emotionally invested and follow page after page only to be met with  a disappointing ending.

Imagine if Tolkien had ended The Hobbbit with the whole adventure being just a dream in a sleeping Bilbo’s mind My own point of view is that you should give the reader an honest picture of what kind of story they’re in for so they can opt out.

Often, a reader is lucky if there *is* a last sentence, given the number of WIP/abandoned and unfinished stories out there.  I’ve got a potter fic that’s still listed as WIP, but haven’t updated it in five years.

[mastershakeme]

20 hours ago, Desiderius Price said:

Often, a reader is lucky if there *is* a last sentence, given the number of WIP/abandoned and unfinished stories out there.  I’ve got a potter fic that’s still listed as WIP, but haven’t updated it in five years.

 

 

Aww, that makes me sad… I just put a story on hiatus and I’m hoping to god I won’t abandon it… I just got busy on another story. That’s why I did it!!!

 

On 7/2/2017 at 10:19 PM, PenStoryTeller said:

That’s a good way to look at it. Just don’t front load. The last sentence of a story is immeasurably more important than the first.  It’s a bad thing to turn the reader away at the begining. But, and I can attest to this, the worst thing you can do is end your book in such a way as to make the reader regret the time spent reading.. The first , the reader will think it’s just no their kinda of story and move on to something else. the latter , they get emotionally invested and follow page after page only to be met with  a disappointing ending.

Imagine if Tolkien had ended The Hobbbit with the whole adventure being just a dream in a sleeping Bilbo’s mind My own point of view is that you should give the reader an honest picture of what kind of story they’re in for so they can opt out.

 

 

This made me ROFL!!!

I really like your take on first and last lines… I’ve had a lot more first lines than last… And either way, I was so exhausted by my story at the end, I really flubbed it IMO. That story is no longer up because I wanted to remedy that…

But if Bilbo had woken up to realize the Hobbit was a dream…? That’s hysterical!!!  I didn’t do anything stupid like that...

[Desiderius Price]

2 hours ago, mastershakeme said:

Aww, that makes me sad… I just put a story on hiatus and I’m hoping to god I won’t abandon it… I just got busy on another story. That’s why I did it!!!

 

This made me ROFL!!!

I really like your take on first and last lines… I’ve had a lot more first lines than last… And either way, I was so exhausted by my story at the end, I really flubbed it IMO. That story is no longer up because I wanted to remedy that…

But if Bilbo had woken up to realize the Hobbit was a dream…? That’s hysterical!!!  I didn’t do anything stupid like that...

Given that we’re mostly amateurs on these sites, it’s understandable if stories aren’t finished.  Sometimes, the author realizes it won’t work out, or, they lose interest due to a new book getting released (Lots of Harry Potter fics were like that when I started into fanfic), RL death/disease/stress (understandable), or many other reasons.  I do want to finish my potter fic, but the draw/lure of my own stories is stronger – and my potter fic’s been stuck on a plot point for ages (how to portray something w/o being considered deus ex).  In my originals, the main culprits have been plot bunnies!  I’ve got WIPs because I decided to split the original story (it held too many competing plot threads, and was better to tell several separate stories than to try to stuff it all under one title).  So, I’ve got Fiends (the most direct lineage from the first story), Alaska Trekkers (backstory, complete), Dolbourne Chronicles (backstory, WIP), Jefferey (backstory to a character appearing in the backstory, WIP), and Dale’s Game (backstory that was sparked by a holiday fic, WIP).  And, I’ve got some sequels to fiends planned. 

Of course, once a story hits the printing press, it had better be complete! 

Even if I haven’t truly written the last sentence, I do like to have a good idea early on what that scene will be like, or the general conditions.  I try to worry about start/end to each chapter as I write, so that’s a good way to practice, IMO.  Frequently, I’ll stumble across the last sentence as I write, not always what I had in mind, but my typing will reach it and it becomes, “damn, that’s a good one – cut!”

 

[mastershakeme]

46 minutes ago, Desiderius Price said:

Given that we’re mostly amateurs on these sites, it’s understandable if stories aren’t finished.  Sometimes, the author realizes it won’t work out, or, they lose interest due to a new book getting released (Lots of Harry Potter fics were like that when I started into fanfic), RL death/disease/stress (understandable), or many other reasons.  I do want to finish my potter fic, but the draw/lure of my own stories is stronger – and my potter fic’s been stuck on a plot point for ages (how to portray something w/o being considered deus ex).  In my originals, the main culprits have been plot bunnies!  I’ve got WIPs because I decided to split the original story (it held too many competing plot threads, and was better to tell several separate stories than to try to stuff it all under one title).  So, I’ve got Fiends (the most direct lineage from the first story), Alaska Trekkers (backstory, complete), Dolbourne Chronicles (backstory, WIP), Jefferey (backstory to a character appearing in the backstory, WIP), and Dale’s Game (backstory that was sparked by a holiday fic, WIP).  And, I’ve got some sequels to fiends planned. 

Of course, once a story hits the printing press, it had better be complete! 

Even if I haven’t truly written the last sentence, I do like to have a good idea early on what that scene will be like, or the general conditions.  I try to worry about start/end to each chapter as I write, so that’s a good way to practice, IMO.  Frequently, I’ll stumble across the last sentence as I write, not always what I had in mind, but my typing will reach it and it becomes, “damn, that’s a good one – cut!”

 

I understand what you're saying… I guess I didn’t take the fanfic aspect of your abandoned work. I’m glad your focusing on your original stuff  Yay!!

I don’t have an ending planned for my story  It just gets longer and longer  Like its almost 200,000k at this point with no end in sight. Lol It’s getting ridiculous and I’m using the smiley faces to show how delirious I feel lol. I wish I could restrain myself and find the perfect last sentence long before I get there. That’s why my endings sound so rushed! They are! 

I can’t expect anyone to beta for me anymore either with a story length like that… I’m all on my own!!! fuck, fuck, fuck!!! Ships going down guys!!! lol, I'm mostly joking btw  

[Desiderius Price]

13 minutes ago, mastershakeme said:

I understand what you're saying… I guess I didn’t take the fanfic aspect of your abandoned work. I’m glad your focusing on your original stuff  Yay!!

Have you read it yet?

17 minutes ago, mastershakeme said:

I don’t have an ending planned for my story  It just gets longer and longer  Like its almost 200,000k at this point with no end in sight. Lol It’s getting ridiculous and I’m using the smiley faces to show how delirious I feel lol. I wish I could restrain myself and find the perfect last sentence long before I get there. That’s why my endings sound so rushed! They are! 

I can’t expect anyone to beta for me anymore either with a story length like that… I’m all on my own!!! fuck, fuck, fuck!!! Ships going down guys!!! lol, I'm mostly joking btw  

Several stories (Dolbourne & Jefferey), I’m writing more episodic, because they’re less in terms of overall plot but in more small stories tied together by the same main character(s).  So, having micro starts/ends is actually helpful in terms of practice, and tightly scoping the plot because I need it to resolve by the end of the episode.  I might split up those two stories, just because they’re spanning many years.

My potter fanfic (the one on more or less permanent hiatus) was over 600kwords before I went and edited it down … it’s now at a more modest 500kwords.  Its prequel (complete) is almost 180k.   Though, my average is lower because I’ve also got two really short ones (~200 words each).

 

[Anesor]

I have a bunch on hiatus because I had too many cool ideas I could not resist starting. Sometimes i get a little cornered moving between two sections, and can’t go forward. right now my laptop keyboard needs replaced and it will be weeks until the part comes in. There just isn’t room for my storyor comment window AND an on screen keyboard. One stopped as no one read it. I’m toying with a summary postscript, as all that was left was lots of battle and onle a few small char things.  jst don’t have the time to finish them, especially as I want to get back to original stuff.

[mastershakeme]

10 hours ago, Desiderius Price said:

 

My potter fanfic (the one on more or less permanent hiatus) was over 600kwords before I went and edited it down … it’s now at a more modest 500kwords.  Its prequel (complete) is almost 180k.   Though, my average is lower because I’ve also got two really short ones (~200 words each).

 

1

Whooo! Those were my favorite Hp fanfics, the super huge long ones  can i ask what pairing??  

[Desiderius Price]

Ron/Hermione, Harry/OC-muggle  (and I can’t bring the fics to AFF due to the OC… )    Warning, my portrayal of their sixth year makes canon look like a street festival.

[Desiderius Price]

2 hours ago, Anesor said:

I have a bunch on hiatus because I had too many cool ideas I could not resist starting. Sometimes i get a little cornered moving between two sections, and can’t go forward. right now my laptop keyboard needs replaced and it will be weeks until the part comes in. There just isn’t room for my storyor comment window AND an on screen keyboard. One stopped as no one read it. I’m toying with a summary postscript, as all that was left was lots of battle and onle a few small char things.  jst don’t have the time to finish them, especially as I want to get back to original stuff.

I’ve gotten disciplined enough to jot the idea down, or put it into my database.  (Which is useful, came in handy for Dale’s game, turning the situation from food poisoning into an allergy, allowing me to create an interesting trait for his character.)  Even with original, if you’re developing a universe/world-building, after a while, you’ve got the same level of constraints; again, I ran into that with Dale’s Game, where the end point of the story is fixed, very fixed, within the universe, and the story was developing fast, so it was easier to make it a year later than to completely rewrite and slow it down w/o any benefit.

[Anesor]

1 hour ago, Desiderius Price said:

I’ve gotten disciplined enough to jot the idea down, or put it into my database.  (Which is useful, came in handy for Dale’s game, turning the situation from food poisoning into an allergy, allowing me to create an interesting trait for his character.)  Even with original, if you’re developing a universe/world-building, after a while, you’ve got the same level of constraints; again, I ran into that with Dale’s Game, where the end point of the story is fixed, very fixed, within the universe, and the story was developing fast, so it was easier to make it a year later than to completely rewrite and slow it down w/o any benefit.

 I’ve got several idea files: original, one for each fandom, and a few for particular AU’s. the biggest issue iis never gettng back. A 30 day challenge is waiting for a chapter 16/16. If I start that one, one of the other two will be abandoned, I’ve learned how fickle my muse is. Showers?? and it’s gone.

[Desiderius Price]

6 minutes ago, Anesor said:

 I’ve got several idea files: original, one for each fandom, and a few for particular AU’s. the biggest issue iis never gettng back. A 30 day challenge is waiting for a chapter 16/16. If I start that one, one of the other two will be abandoned, I’ve learned how fickle my muse is. Showers?? and it’s gone.

All of my original stories on here, including the halloween/holiday oneshots, are from the same universe, most characters are connected in some fashion.  So, for me, writing down a plot bunny has a good chance of being usable, even if it’s a spinoff story.  But yep, recording them helps retain them and you can go back, even with a fickle muse … may be a challenge. 

And sometimes, those ideas are rejected, not because they’re lousy, but because it’ll distract too much from the major thrust to the story, or simply overwhelm it.  (I recently pruned what would’ve been chapter 16 from Dale’s Game because it was too much, even though the underlying premise was sound in terms of what the characters needed in skill improvements.  Sad to remove 5kwords and start the chapter over….not really removed, I do save them off into a separate file, just in case.)

[PenStoryTeller]

Trust me. Pr authors have lots of unfinished drafts. Some because they can’t be motivated, or they’re no longer at a mental place where they can tell that story. others,  will abandon a story because they see no profit from finishing it. Some authors die before they finish as well. For me I will say my fan fiic is sort of a warm up for my real novels which I’m working on. I started it mostly because  I thought it was a good way to get feed back and hone my style…. I was at least half right. My style has improved a good deal and I’ve actually learned a fair deal from refining my writing process.

 

But back to the matter of Chekov’s Gun. Remember, it is a tool. but like any tool the reader shouldonly be aware of it’s usage in hindsight if at all.Chekov’s gun, much like the red herring and the McGuffin are all elements of plot and plot is to a story what the skeleton is to a body. Just remember, the more others can see of your skeleton, the worse off you are.

[mastershakeme]

4 hours ago, PenStoryTeller said:

Remember, the more others can see of your skeleton, the worse off you are.

1

This line rocks!!! 

BTW,  I tried to check out what you had written and there’s nothing on Aff  You sound so masterful lol. Are you published? 

[Desiderius Price]

9 hours ago, PenStoryTeller said:

Just remember, the more others can see of your skeleton, the worse off you are.

Aw, so you’re a PWP type of person …

 

[PenStoryTeller]

13 hours ago, mastershakeme said:

This line rocks!!! 

BTW,  I tried to check out what you had written and there’s nothing on Aff  You sound so masterful lol. Are you published? 

I sound masterful because I have many, many, many horrible first drafts and drabbles. I also take a lot of time to think about what i read; both the things I liked and disliked. That’s the important part. You need to think.. alot. And read a good deal to get a feel for the stuff that works for youy and doesn’t. Since I lean towards stoies that present fairly well fitting characters and a well hidden plot.

I can’t take credit for that line. It’s a quotayion from another author whom i can’t remember but it’s one that’s stuck with me for obvious reasons. As for my works on AFF. I’ve got 4., though 2 are due fro some rewriting.

Not the same thing - Pinky and the Brain

Gosalyn's Gambit - Darkwing Duck 

Thursday - Animaniacs

The Bet (ongoing) - Tiny toons Adventures

 

8 hours ago, Desiderius Price said:

Aw, so you’re a PWP type of person …

 

PWP?

One saying I came across recently was this.

“You must always strive to be or, at the very least, appear to be impartial. Few things ruins a story  for the reader more than knowing who God is rooting for.”

 

Though even there, one can toy with the rule. Sherlock Holmes stories were a good example of this as were many mystery stories. It was a foregone conclusion that the mystery would be solved, so the fun wasseeing if you could figure out the mystery before the big reveal. Sir COnan Doyle sadly, often cheated.

[Anesor]

That’s why I’m careful with my guns, I’ve seen too many in text and video where the hun was not only there but balloons and blinking lights were there.   I prefer the stage magician where a detail is there but unimportant. with red herrings added sometimes.