Writing about minors

[fawnheart]

I'm just a little curious here...

Quite a few stories seem to have some fairly graphic descriptions of boys, some even go as far as to say they are 11 years old etc, being abused sexually.

I am just wondering where the line is between child pornography and acceptible fiction. Some authors say they don't condone what they are writing about but to me that's like saying, yeah in xyz country, they post pornographic pictures of children and I'm just bring back a collection and posting it on the net to show you what is wrong...here have a look. Somehow, I don't think that excuse would hold in a court of law if the police turned up and found the 'warning collection'.

What's more, as an adult, I have read things on here that have given me an idea about something to try out on my husband (poor guinea pig that he is!) and knowing that, I wonder if, as authors, don't they have a responsibility to ensure that the material they write about doesn't a) get some pedo off or b ) give a potential pedo some pretty graphic ideas and almost written instructions on how to abuse a child?

I dunno, I'm a little confused about this...no actually, I'm not confused, I'm concerned.

Edited December 11, 2007 by fawnheart

[Keith Inc.]

I am just wondering where the line is between child pornography and acceptible fiction.

I think the big distinction is that for most Child Porn, you have to abuse a child to get it. Fiction doesn't harm any child (or sheep, or wait staff, or cartoon animals or whatever the author writes about).

on't they have a responsibility to ensure that the material they write about doesn't a) get some pedo off

Pedophiles are not usually turned on by what other people would consider smut. Grown people choosing to have whoopie smoochies, interaction of adults, or children expressing adult like behavior, are turn-offs. Time and again, when they arrest such people, the don't find porn-as-porn in their possession. They find pages torn out of the old Sears catalog of children posing in underoos. Or, depending on the age the person finds attractive, cub scouting magazines, cheerleader, daycare newsletters, any sort of material that works.

Just exactly how responsible is JCPenny's to make sure that a pedophile doesn't 'get off' on what they put in the paper the day after Thanksgiving?

I've written things for the express purpose of arousal, but some that weren't. Some of my feedback includes appreciation by people that 'got off' on some stories or scenes that i hadn't intended to cause that sort of reaction. I don't think any author can completely insulate his/her writings from any sort of objectionable perv getting something out of it (as opposed to the approved pervs I aim for, as it were).

give a potential pedo some pretty graphic ideas and almost written instructions on how to abuse a child?

Um...are you suggesting that one story could change someone from 'potential' to acting out the specifics of that story? That whatever preferences or fantasies they've come up with on their own would be insufficient motivation until someone else wrote their own fantasies? That seems unlikely. If they have motivation and opportunity, those are the things i'd worry about the most.

[fawnheart]

What you say makes perfect sense, especially in regard to seers catalogues etc, but still, as I said, I get ideas to try on my husband from some of the stories I read on here and I've no doubt that others do too.

People write smut to turn people on. I prefer to read about men because that turns me on, I find men extremely attractive. So who, would writing about children appeal to? It could be naive to think that graphic descriptions of child sex don't do the same for a pedo.

So yeah, I suppose I am suggesting that it is a possibility that one story, (but there is more than one story on here that goes into it) could become so fascinating to someone who not only has those urges, but also that they might become obsessed with a desire to enact them, if, as you said, they have the motivation and the opportunity arises.

What I am not suggesting, is that child porn will just make anyone turn pedo, most of us won't read or look at that content anyway because unlike reading about mature, women and men, reading about children getting abused doesn't turn people on unless it's their thing. I suppose that some angst writers use situations of abuse to create 'angst', but then readers are reading for the angst, not details of child sex. For most, just knowing a child has been abused is enough to cause angst.

I realise that in some stories, a character's past plays a huge part in how their character is shaped and that that past may include abuse, but it could and can be, and I have seen it handled delicately. In fact, I've read an ansty story that I bought from a bookshop (so it obviously wasn't illegal) in which the pivotal event was a 12 year old girl getting raped, but it wasn't described in minute detail and the author made it clear what had happened without the graphic descriptions.

What I'm talking about, are stories that have graphic descriptions of child sex/abuse, which yes, I think provide an almost blueprint on how to go about it that could stick in a pedo's mind so that if the opportunity to enact it does arise, he already has a plan to follow. I don't think it's unreasonable to go further, and say that if it turns him on immensely, it could even prompt him to actively look for an opportunity.

And despite your logical and informative reasoning, the question still remains, don't authors have a responsibility to consider the possibility that their stories concerning "graphic descriptions" (note the emphasis on graphic descriptions) of child sex could add fuel to some pedo's fire?

And also, when is the line drawn between what could be classed as adult fiction and child pornography?

And if the answer to that is that writing sexually explicit material about children isn't pornography, does that mean that there is nothing on this site that can be classified as such? Or is it that there is one rule for everyone else, that is, stories going into graphic detail about adult sex is porn, but it doesn't apply to graphic descriptions about children being raped?

It makes perfect sense to me where you said that the big distinction is that for most Child Porn, you have to abuse a child to get it, and that fiction doesn't harm any child (sheep, wait staff etc), but still, don't authors have a responsibility to consider the affect that graphic descriptions of children will have?

[Keith Inc.]

It makes perfect sense to me where you said that the big distinction is that for most Child Porn, you have to abuse a child to get it, and that fiction doesn't harm any child (sheep, wait staff etc), but still, don't authors have a responsibility to consider the affect that graphic descriptions of children will have?

Do you have any proof that writing about such things will have an affect on real children?

The champion of the 'violent video games' march to stamp out such things has a lot of casual connections between VVGs and actual changes in behavior. But many experts criticize his work, methods, conclusions and testimony. There's just not a lot of peer reviewed work that really suggests what we read or see will change what we were going to do. Some copycatting does occur, but the numbers are really small compared to the viewership.

I'm not sure that there's much if any blame to be laid at an author's feet for how a reader behaves afterwards. Except for Trevanian. But while someone used his character's method to steal art, they didn't become an art thief because he wrote a book about it.

I used to work a suicide hotline. A lot of people are afraid to mention 'suicide' to a depressed person out of fear that it'll give them 'ideas.' Frankly, they told us, if they're to the point that you're worried about them, they've already had those ideas.

I don't think it's unreasonable to go further, and say that if it turns him on immensely, it could even prompt him to actively look for an opportunity.

Possibly, but i really doubt it. He may try to recreate an experience, but i really don't see that reading a story is going to push him over from inactive to actively acting out his fantasies.

I have to go to work, i'll respond more later.

[Guest Rosemarius]

People write smut to turn people on. I prefer to read about men because that turns me on, I find men extremely attractive.  So who, would writing about children appeal to?  It could be naive to think that graphic descriptions of child sex don't do the same for a pedo.

There are certain degrees for what someone finds arousing. I used to, sometimes, look at some of those stories for the purpose of getting aroused, expecially when I was younger, but I would never do the same in real life. (Actually, I usually identified with the "victim", since I'm mostly a masochist).

Also, I know about some pedos who use fictional porn as a sobstitute to real porn. In their case if fictional porn wasn't around...well, they'd have looked at the real one.

[Keith Inc.]

And also, when is the line drawn between what could be classed as adult fiction and child pornography?

I didn't mean that descriptions of graphic sex involving underage participants wouldn't be child porn. I was saying that usually, when someone is concerned with 'child porn' it's because of harm to a child.

If it includes graphic descriptions of sex, then it's an adult topic; if there are children graphically sexing, then it's child porn, sure.

I just disagree that fiction authors are responsible for their reader's behavior.

They could just as easily get their jollies from works where the author makes all the characters 18+, but slants their behavior towards child porn interests. How would you detect such things? What would you do to stop it? How would you phrase the rules to keep those things out.

I've read interviews with serial killers, who go to great lengths to blame their behaviors on others. They done it because of the violence on TV, because of the violence and occult in D&D, because of the sex in porn. School shootings are blamed on video games and taking the Bible out of schools.

A lot of casual connections, but no proof that there's a causal one. Hell, considering the number of kids playing video games, the number of people watching FOX, or the sales of D&D or other role playing satanic blood fests, there should be just oodles more violence breaking out, if we're all that impressionable.

----

You take stuff from the site home to you husband, you said. If he's away on a business trip, do you consider yourself likely to jump the pool cleaner because somehting here turned you on? The neighbor? The neighbor's wife? kid? dog?

Nothing i've read or written here makes me any more likely to cheat on my own wife. My behavior is pretty well decided in that area. I have little or no anecdotal evidence of anyone around me doing something they weren't likely to just because they read it or saw it on TV.

I'll be the first to agree that our rights are not infinite. That our freedom of expression goes no farther than the first person it hurts. But i resist the idea of limiting that expression for no better reason than it 'may be' harming. I don't think anyone's going to tip over the balance from something they read here.

[fawnheart]

So, do we agree that graphic descriptions of child sex and sexual abuse are child pornography? And if so, isn't that illegal?

I agree that authors aren't responsible for their readers behaviour but by the same token, I do think that aurthors have a responsibility to consider the affects of their works especially in regards to illegal content regarding children.

Authors make a point of writing to inspire emotion, they aspire to make people laugh, cry, get angry, get horny...etc. The written word has inspired revolutions, has controlled people through propaganda, has saved the whales and inspired such developments as the submarine and helicopter ( which were specifically inspired by the fantasy of Jules Verne in the 1800s).

It's easy to say, oh this is fiction and that the making of it didn't hurt anyone. But the making of propaganda that vilifies certain races, examples of which abound throughout history, (Jews and Irish catholics are the first to spring to mind) and resulting in genocide would prompt me to beg to differ in regards to the power of the written word.

But that isn't really what I wanted to address in my initial post.

I'm all for freedom of expression and all that, but it seems that we have come full circle on this, in that there are stories on this site that contain child pornography and I am concerned about it. Which is why I made this post, trying to establish what is and isn't child pornography and if it is, isn't it illegal? And if it is, how is it that it's allowed on this site?

[Keith Inc.]

So, do we agree that graphic descriptions of child sex and sexual abuse are child pornography? And if so, isn't that illegal?

Now we're back to 'harm to a child.'

No, written word is not illegal.

3D manipulation (Poser, DAZ) is not illegal.

Drawings are not illegal.

Because they don't involve real kids. They don't harm real kids.

Pics of kids doing naughty are illegal.

Photomanipulation of kids into naughty is a hazy area. If the original pic qualifies as child porn, then it's illegal. If it doesn't, then it still might be illegal.

Pics of simply nude kids have been prosecuted under legislation so vague it would make pics of nude babies on bear skin rugs illegal. That sort of legislation gets overturned regularly by courts and precedents.

I agree that authors aren't responsible for their readers behaviour but by the same token, I do think that aurthors have a responsibility to consider the affects of their works especially in regards to illegal content regarding children.

Okay.

Written word isn't illegal content.

But the making of propaganda that vilifies certain races, examples of which abound throughout history, (Jews and Irish catholics are the first to spring to mind) and resulting in genocide would prompt me to beg to differ in regards to the power of the written word.

I really doubt that anything written down caused genocide. Julius Cesar wrote quite the detailed villification of the druids, but that fiction was to justify the conquering he was already planning, none of the blood sacrifices he wrote about show up in the Greeks' descriptions of the culture. Hitler didn't read anything and suddenly realize that he needed to wipe out the Jews. He selected a scapegoat to leverage the frustrations of post-war Germany and they were handy. Propaganda is usually to bolster ideas, not create them.

I still fail to see anything written having a causal connection to rape, child abuse or genocide.

Which is why I made this post, trying to establish what is and isn't child pornography and if it is, isn't it illegal? And if it is, how is it that it's allowed on this site?

It's not illegal.

[fawnheart]

Well if it isn't illegal, then that's that! Thanks for clearing that up for me. I'll agree to disagree on the rest

[manta2g]

The only written content banned by the site for written fiction regarding explicit acts with children, is in celeberty fiction since it is in regards to a real person / people.

[Acal]

Well if it isn't illegal, then that's that!  Thanks for clearing that up for me.  I'll agree to disagree on the rest

Even if it isn't illegal as written word its certainly immoral and frankly sickening

[krash]

Acal, I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Acal]

Thanks, it certainly sums it up really well

[Guest Zyx]

Even if it isn't illegal as written word its certainly immoral and frankly sickening

I hate you so much right now

And I could probably go on for hours typing here, telling you why.

But it's not like it's going to do any good... Just know I hat you so much right now

[Guest Rosemarius]

Even if it isn't illegal as written word its certainly immoral and frankly sickening

*laughs*

Oh, you're right man, but isn't tentacle rape just as wrong and immoral? Isn't slash and femmeslash just as immoral as that? Isn't writing about animals fucking people or about people fucking animals, or writing about chicks getting gang-raped, or writing about girls getting enslaved and such just as wrong and immoral as it?

People come on AFF because it's one of the few sites that respects the Speech Freedom. You're allowed to write almost everything here. And what sickens me could be what my neighbour gets a kick out of it.

So stop this right now. Because if you're gonna complain about stories containing minors, I'm gonna complain about stories containining bestiality and gang-rapes against females that enjoys it (which is bullshit. We could call it just as sick as the main topic here. Girls don't enjoy it when you rape them, unless they're into BDSM and you're just making Rape-Play).

[Lore]

o.o I'd like to add my own two cents in, actually. I've written shota before ( boy sex for those of you that aren't familiar with the word ) and I can safely say while I enjoy the writing, I've never even thought about a real child that way. Not about any part of them, really. So if I enjoy fiction depicting underage sex, am I a pedophile?

And for those saying it's immoral.. o_o I'd have to agree with the other guy. Is writing about an enslaved woman or someone being raped any more moral than a fictional child having sex with someone? Is it more moral than writing about a man with a dog's knot in his ass?

We can't really control what people do or what they enjoy, but I have enough faith in the AFF community to understand fiction from real life. Just because we write about something questionable, I doubt there's any real chance we'll act on it.

[fawnheart]

Ok, I have a problem with stories that depict graphic sex with children, simply because it's dangerous. Pedophiles ruin childrens lives, and then they sometimes grow up to ruin other childrens lives. I cannot think of anything more disgusting, destructive and despicable than a pedophile. So when I see stories written that depict graphic child sex, I have no doubt that there would be pedophiles who get off on it, and that sickens me. What really gets on my nerves is when these stories say the kids get off. I think it's dangerous to say crap like that, because what if a pedo reads it and gets it into the sick head that the child they abuse enjoys it? I agree that women getting gang raped etc don't enjoy it either, but as horrible as that situation is, its about an adult and I have this thing that adults are in a better position to defend themselves and help themselves. I just choose not to read stuff like that if it upsets me or isn't handled delicately and isn't essential to the plot. Kids aren't able to defend themselves. They are vulnerable and I cannot hack reading about them or hearing about any vulnerable person being abused, whether they are elderly people, disabled people or whatever. Kids especially, should be protected and it's every parents worst nightmare that there are sick people who prey on them simply because they are weak, and justify their actiions by trying to convince themselves that they are child 'lovers'. They aren't. they are child abusers. To read stories that not only describe it in minute detail, but actually say the kids get off on it is just freaking dangerous and intrinsically wrong on so many levels it's not funny. Pedophilia undermines the foundation of the future, if you want to get clinical about it. It creates a cycle of more people who chances are, will be so destroyed by the abuse that they will grow up to do the same things themselves.

It's different when it's a romance between two teens, because one isn't taking advantage of the others vulnerability and well, teenagedom is the time for rampant hormones and experimentationg that is not the result of being abused. I cannot see the sence in a romance for small children, since in real life, if they can contemplate that, it's because they have been abused. As for animal sex etc etc, whatever. Of course it's immoral, but so is slutting around. This isn't so much about morality, for me, different strokes for different folks etc. It is more the fact that I cannot help think that writing such stuff is ultimately dangerous. Regardless of the previous arguement I had about this where I agreed to disagree, I ask again, who is it written for? I read about men, they turn me on. I read smutty stories about them and I hang for my other half to come home so I can try out any new ideas such stories have inspired. Even though I'm hetero female, I love reading slash because it's about men. I don't like to read about women, because they aren't my thing.

So who reads stories about kids? Logically, it has to turn the people who read it and write it, on. To my mind, writing stuff like that actively encourages pedophilia. I even read in one of those stories that wasn't marked with 'minor', where the Author wrote "yay for pedo's" ...what the hell? Seriously...what the freakin hell?!

Now tell me that writing stuff like that doesn't turn pedos on, and try to do it without a smile on your face.

Some fantasies are dangerous, obviously. Writing about a woman who has been raped (which is actually a prominent fantasy for women), enjoying it could have the same effect on a potential rapist, or could endanger dogs or horses or whatever it is...but they are acts of such violence (in the case of rape especially) that it has to be pretty extreme for someone to do it.

Pedo's do not abuse kids so much out of a desire for violence or power and especially they do not abuse them out of LOVE as I have read that a lot of them claim. They do it out of SICKNESS. And to write that a kid enjoys it is blatantly dangerous, to my mind. They need to know that they are not loving children, they are damaging them, destroying them. I know I've said it before, but I will say it again... DANGEROUS. what's more, if child abuse is pivotal to a plot, I don't see that it's necessary to describe it in graphic detail. Usually just saying it has happened is enough to cause people angst...even people who rape women and do animals. I mean, when pedos get caught and sent to jail, it's rapists and murderers who beat the crap out of them in prison. Even THEY have more "morals", if we want to speak about that, than some authors on here. Especially the one who wrote "yay for pedos"...deadset.

Now I'm done with this conversation.

There has to be a line that doesn't get crossed, to my mind. And for me, it's children.

[fawnheart]

No, actually, I have one more thing to say about this...

Three times I have been caught out, reading a story that is tagged (or not even tagged but flagged as slash) with 'minor', and have had it turn into a pedo's wet dream. Just gratuitous, child sex for no reason at all. It wasn't essential to the plot or anything and in one instance, it actually ruined what was up until then a totally engrossing story. It's getting that way now that I hesitate to click on slash stories incase they start out good, and then end up deteriorating.

There is only ONE slash author that I trust implicitely now, and that is Lime Green and Tangerine. I read their story called "perserverance" in one night, from start to finish. It was totally engrossing and angsty to the max, and I seriously loved it. The main characters were 19 and 17, and in my country the age of consent is 16 for males so I didn't have a problem with it at all, especially since the romance between the two was based on love and not abuse. But what really, REALLY impressed me about this story, is that when the 17 year old got hot and heavy with a 30 year old, the 30 year old immediately stopped and took him home when he found out that he was under 18, simply because he (the character) felt it was wrong...even though in my country that wouldn't even be illegal.

I felt like cheering when I read that, deadset, especially after the other three stories I read had turned into gratuitous pedo parties. Now I know that without a doubt I can trust these two to write brilliant, emotional, angsty slash that won't haul me in and then end up offending me at the most fundamental level. That's a big thing to my mind too, to be able to click on a story and enjoy it, without having to fear it will turn into some ghastly, sick junk that I would not have read had I known what it contained (and had been labelled accurately).

So if people who insist that it's 'freedom of speech' to justify writing such dangerous crap, continue to write it, at least have some consideration for the rest of the AFF community if you have none for anything else, and label your work as PEDOPHILIA, so that those of us who find it abhorrent and who think it shouldn't be allowed, don't get rigged into reading it by accident, since it seems that it's perfectly acceptable to write it on the basis that it's 'freedom of expression' and that the kids who are involved aren't real...which I might add, I think is a major cop out.

There. I'm done.

[Guest MortiferLascivio]

That's just literature for you. You can debate forever on what's immoral and what's not, and someone will always disagree with you. Both sides represent good points - writing about kids being raped by adults is certainly not something you would think any decent person would write about. But I take into account why and how they are writing these stories. Are they writing some smutty piece just to get off on, or are they writing about...perhaps personal experience or trying to teach some kind of lesson through their writing? I've read published works with similar "immoral" topics.

However, to say that writing something is what causes an adult to want to rape a child isn't very fair. Things like these....only have that effect on someone who has an evil mind to begin with. If someone decides they want to act out on a fantasy about raping children they read about on a fan-fiction site, then they were messed up in the head from the start and there was probably nothing to be done about that.

It's not the story that's immoral, it's the person who takes it as some kind of heavenly sex fantasy that is.

That being said, I usually don't read stories involving sex about kids under sixteen any way. I find it more appealing when both parties are willing.

[Lore]

._.; Eesh. Someone is PMSing today.

I very rarely write shota, not to get off on it, but because I enjoy the CHARACTER ( not REAL PEOPLE! CHARACTER! ) interaction. It's a very complex situation to deal with and in a way, it's fun to try to make something that ISN'T rape work. Yes, I know you said that you think it's sick that some of these children are depicted as enjoying it, but what if I said that maybe one could write it so it wasn't the physical things they were enjoying so much as the emotional bonding? Yes, in real life that'd be just as taboo as a subject, but it's just.a.story.

People that read rape fics don't go out and rape people because they have issues, people that read torture fics don't go out and lock someone in their basement to torture because they have problems, and people that read shota/loli fics don't go out and rape little kids or try to have a relationship with them because of it. Trust me, if they had those sort of deep rooted problems, anyone that's taken a basic psychology lesson will know that those sort of habits are build into the person and will act how they want to, when they want to.. and generally it's spontaneous. Very, very few rapists or murders act on premeditated plans, so I can guarantee you that one of our fics won't be what pushes them to that edge. If they plan on doing it, they'll do it without help.

As for labeling all minor fics with pedophilia, I think that's kind of harsh. :\ I don't ask rape fics to be labeled ' CRUELTY AND SETTING WOMEN'S RIGHTS BACK 40 YEARS ', do I? Rape fics are nothing but abusing women and the power they've slowly gained, so if I felt that was upsetting, would it be fair if I made you label your stories that way? Would it be fair if I asked you to label all of the slash fics as ' GOING AGAINST THE MORALS OF 90% OF ALL RELIGIONS '?

I'm not a feminist or religious, but if I was, could I ask that of you? Simply because you're against a fictional depiction of something you dislike despite the fact there are other equally unmoral stories out there?

[fawnheart]

Hey, just because I think people should label their work as pedophilia when it involves pedophilia, doesn't mean that I have PMS, or else you would have to say that the rest of the majority of the civilised world or any country where the laws prohibit pedophilia, sufferes from PMS... which is clearly not reasonable, is it?

Read what I said. There are authors who go into graphic detail of adults raping children. I don't see how that could be 'emotionally bonding' for any child. With regards to other immoral stories, I titled this debate as 'writing about minors' not 'writing about immoral stories'. As I said, to my mind there has to be a line drawn. People who write about rape, TAG their work N/C or RAPE. There is a difference in writing about minors and pedophilia. If an author wants to write about an adult raping a child or sexually abusing them, they should label it PEDOPHILIA because that's what it is. If a pedo tried to call his crime 'Shota' or 'minor' in a court of law, I don't think it would hold, therefore the legal definition is PEDOPHILIA. If you want to read and write that crap, there is nothing anyone can do about it, obviously...as this discussion has revealed. But at least have some consideration and tag your work correctly. The majority of people don't get off on it, ok? Don't label it 'slash' when it's pedophilia. Don't label it 'minor' when it's pedophilia. That way we won't get tricked into reading the crap. It's as simple as that.

[Kanashii]

I do understand Fawnheart what you and some others are saying.

I think the reason "minor/pedo" has such a bad rap to it (as in WRITING) is because so many people in Real life have experienced this first hand (or known someone who has) and have seen the reality of it.

Not many people have first hand experience screwing robots, cartoon characters, or being kidnapped by the Mafia or running around with Elven Lords and Pirates...So these are things we can 'fantasize' about or at least keep our emotional distance. Even some of the more specialized "kink" like scat play or urine play is something most people have never seen or have experience with, so can be just shoved to the back of our mind.

Now, don't get me wrong. I do NOT enjoy reading slash or minor/pedo in anyway. But I do fully stand up for an authors right to write about FICTIONAL characters and what they want to do with them. So that is where I am coming from...

Now, do I think people who write pedo/minor give pedophiles ideas??? No... Not anymore than writing about someone being kidnapped and raped gives people ideas (or those reading it). I write some VERY, very dark stuff sometimes. Kidnapping, rape, slavery, the savagery of the Mafia. I doubt (and I can guarentee this) any of my readers are going to look for their nearest Mafia family to join and begin kidnapping, raping women and torturing enemies of the famiglia.

The same with 'beastiality' (sex with animals) while it is something I would never write about, when you read some of these stories it is obvious the authors have no clue...no experience. (Not that they should!) But you can just TELL most of it is fantasy based.

Rape too is a sensitive subject. Again, this is something that MANY people have real world experience with.

But there are kinks out there, that in no way affect the people who write or read the stories. (Did you know....Most people who write male/male slash are actually FEMALES?)

I am not connected with any Mob families, nor would I ever want to be raped, kidnapped and enslaved by any dark people...But it is a 'kink' I have.

One of the reasons minor/pedo is such a 'hotbutton' is that it usually strikes a deep chord in our basic human instinct (protection of children, family, etc). Todays world is very ugly and dark indeed. Apathy reins everywhere, so even more people tend to WRITE ficticious things as a way to deal with it.

Again, I am a mother. I have a son. Reading M/M or reading "minor/pedo" is not normally my cuppa tea. Not for ETHICAL reasons, but just that I don't find it sexually arousing to me. BDSM, D/s, violence, dark tales, kidnapping women for slaves...Yeah I find that arousing and intruiging. Many other people would not find what I listed above as arousing and they will choose not to read my works.

I don't know if you remember, but it seems about every 10 years some Singer (Ozzy Osborne, Alice Cooper, Marilyn Manson, etc) is accused of 'converting their listeners' to Satanism, or causing them to commit murder, suicide or other rubbish. If you are suicidal or a psychopath already, listening to a song is NOT going to cause you to do the deed.

Writing is the same way. Stories about minors (and it is only RECENTLY that this hotbutton has popped up) in early Greek and Roman times, it was very common for young (7-10 year old) boys and girls to have already been used for sex. it has continued for literally millenia. There are even classic literature about it.. "lolita" comes to mind.

Minor may not be your cup of tea, and that is fine. We respect you. Don't read it. But also remember that unless all of us are given our 'freedom of speech' and allowed to write what we want...Soon the Governments of our world will only have us authors writing about pretty butterflies in fields with dancing unicorns.

You need to also remember that either WRITING or READING about something is not going to give either the author or the reader "ideas" to try. If someone is already predispositioned to BE something...(Rapist, serial killer, pedophile, etc) then they will not need a 'story' to give them ideas.

And for the sake of arguement (Devils Advocate here...) Let's say that there IS a pedophilia who is aroused by reading minor, yaoi, etc. Wouldn't it be better for him/her to be wanking in front of a computer screen to the ficticious words of a story than actually molesting a real life child?

As an author, I always try and make sure I have ALL the codes covered in my story and again on the first page, so that anyone who reads my stories won't say..."Oh my GAWD!!! Why didn't you tell me this was about Lord Voldemort and Lucius Malfoy torturing some poor girl?!?!?!? Ack! I'm scarred for life now!"

As a READER, if you find something an author has NOT coded, then you can politely leave a review and mention..."Hey, I stumbled on this by accident because I thought it was a story about XYZ, and had no idea it contained ABC...Could you re-code it please to avoid others accidently reading this who may not want to?"

To fellow Authors...CODE your stories properly (Yaoi, M/M, BDSM, anal, slavery/rape, etc, etc, etc...) I have gotten more readers who will read my stuff when I code it with all the codes it contains because some people DO use the SEARCH function (I know I do!) so I will often find new stories by typing in BDSM or D/s or M/F, etc, etc... Just a suggestion to bring in the readers you DO want reading your story.

JMHO as always

[Guest Rosemarius]

[...]

I even read in one of those stories that wasn't marked with 'minor', where the Author wrote "yay for pedo's" ...what the hell? Seriously...what the freakin hell?!

[...]

This is the only point where I agree with you. That Author surely wasn't all that smart if she wrote something like that, but probably she didn't even know what the hell was she talking/writing about.

And anyway...you say immorality is not the point. Great. Then, by your logic, if shota fanfics encourages pedos, why wouldn't rape fanfic encourage rape and bestialtiy fanfic encourage fucking anymals and etc.. They're just as bad in real life. But people likes to write it.

BECAUSE IT'S FICTIONAL. Not real.

And as for whoever gets a kick out of it...well, as Kanashii said, better fapping online than going around raping real kids/women/men/dogs. Don't you think?

[Hanabi]

If you hate the subject so much why are you even reading stories with minors having sex in it? It seems to be a growing trend on sites like this that people who hate those types of stories (or any story subject for that matter) will continue to read them while complaining about how disgusting and immoral the stories are. If it's not your cup of tea then don't read it.

As to your question. No, it is not illegal. There are stories being sold on the shelves at this very moment that contain that kind of subject. VC Andrews books are the first thing that come to my mind.

[Guest Zyx]

All people who hate pedos either hate anyone who's ever had a violent thought or make no sense at all. Because even a single violent thought is worse! A pedophile is a person who feels sexually attracted to children. No where in the definition of the word does it say "goes out to rape little girls". It's something some people feel and until one of them hurts your child it's none of your business. SOME pedophiles will do bad things, really bad things. But that doesn't give you the right to hate all of them. I could think of ten better reasons to hate any of you than to hate a random pedophile. Besides, if you're attracted to 17 year olds your a pedophile but if you're attracted to 18 year olds your just a guy. It's not as simple as just drawing a line as some random age.