Is this a racist question?

[Shinju]

Alright, I know how this might sound, but I have been wondering this for a while and I really whould like to get to the bottom of this. Do Japanse people drool while having sex? Is this just a Yaoi fetish? Do just certain guys, regardless of race just happen to drool while having sex? Is it just guys? What is up with ukes always drooling in yaoi scenes? Is this a big turn on for women all over the world or is it just Japanese women? Am I supposed to be turned on? Is it weird that I'm not?? Is there a name for this kind of fetish??? I've just scene it soooo many times in Japanese yaoi manga and books that I finally had to ask. What is going on here?! I'm sorry to sound so intense, but this question has been weighing on my mind for YEARS . . .

Sorry, I hope I didn't offend anyone . . .

[Melrick]

Heh, Japanese people are no more liable to drool during sex (or any other time) than any other race. It's just a weird Japanese thing. One of many, many weird Japanese things.

[Shinju]

Well, I was just wondering because I was like "Is this something I should be writing about?" I mean, if yaoi fans really liked it I'm sure I could fit it in somewhere. That's why this is in writers corner btw. But if it's just a weird Japanese thing I guess I shouldn't be too worried about it.

[Shadowknight12]

Basically, what everybody's been telling you: it's a Japan thing.

An attempt at rationalising that fetish could be that it's a combination of bodily fluid fetish (which is a subset of taboo fetish) and a cheap and lazy way to indicate to the audience that the drooler is OMG SO INTO THE SEX. Drooling is a sign that the character is so intensely into the sex and really enjoying it and it's the best thing he's ever had and blah blah blah. Much like the incessant moaning and squealing you also see.

Also crying. I really hate crying ukes, but it's there for the same reason. To show emotional/physical intensity.

[Shadowknight12]

There's a whole scientific explanation to this, but I'll make it quick: Girls' tears release a pheromone that tells guys that they don't want to have sex. As simple as that, someone described it as an 'off' switch, it's meant to be just that: A turn off to others wanting to have sex.

That's really interesting! Though I question the science in that, since pheromones are usually lipidic, volatile compounds that need an oil-based medium, like the oils in your skin and hair, not the salty water that makes up tears. Not to mention the fact that I'm pretty sure that sort of thing wouldn't be gender-based (as pheromones aren't) and there's the unfortunate fact that a lot of people get turned on by people crying during sex.

I should know: I read fan fiction.

[Shadowknight12]

That study is highly questionable, mainly because it suffers from clear gender bias. A proper study would have had cross-references with different genders and sexualities (female tears on straight women, straight/bi men, gay/bi women and gay men; male tears on straight/bi women, straight men, gay women and gay/bi men). The study as is presents more questions than it actually answers. What is the alleged pheromone or chemical those tears have? Nobody thought to run a simple HPLC on the tears? If they had enough to significantly wet a piece of paper (several, in fact), it's ridiculous that you couldn't spare a few microlitres for HPLC, spectrophotometry, spectrometry, gaseous chromatography or anything that actually lets you figure out what chemical is causing what effect (and in the event that tears contain several unknown components, then you repeat the test with a pure sample of each unknown chemical and see which one gives you the same reactions on the test subjects).

Furthermore, the study leaves unanswered whether this is a gender-specific mechanism (i.e., if only women have it), a sexuality-specific mechanism (i.e., if only those who are sexually attracted to the gender of the crying person find their arousal diminished), or if it's a species-wide mechanism (i.e., everyone, regardless of gender or sexuality, will find their arousal reduced when they encounter the tears of any other human being).

And finally, there's the most gaping, ridiculously ignored fact: the effect a pheromone or volatile olfactory chemical substance has is extremely limited. We have pheromones in our hair and skin and their ranges have been repeatedly confirmed: you have to be very close in order to feel the effects. If the effect tears have is biological, then it should only work within a certain range, which is empirically not the case. There is a psychological (or sociological) component to the whole issue and trying to be simplistic/reductionist and blame it all on biology lets us wash our hands of psychosociological responsibility.

That is the worst kind of science: the sensationalist kind. I'm pretty sure everyone already knew what the study was going to turn up and they simply went through the motions to publish something sensationalist. Ugh. I wouldn't be surprised if they faked or rushed the whole thing and nobody bothered to fact-check or repeat it.

[Shadowknight12]

Are you kidding me? That is exactly the sort of thing you waste money on. You pay a bunch of scientists to half-ass a study that nobody will cross-check because it's neither socially controversial nor a scientific breakthrough, and you publicise it with the intention of perpetuating a social stereotype and halt social progress.

EDIT: In case it needs to be stated, this keeps perpetuating that a woman's natural state is to passively cry and hope for the best whenever something threatens her, and that her main weapons are her tears.

EDIT 2: Yes, I know how the study was done. I went and found the actual published paper.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Shadowknight12

[Shinju]

Also crying. I really hate crying ukes, but it's there for the same reason. To show emotional/physical intensity.

Crying ukes can get annoying rather fast. But I think the discussion in this thread has enlightened me as to why it is just so prevalent in a lot of yaoi.

HA! One try. "Tears are a major Turn-off for Men"

Interesting article.

After the last few responses, I feel I may be killed for saying this, but here it goes.

A lot of women who have been around the block a few times know that crying is the biggest turn off ever to most normal men. In my personal experience, most guys really would just be a thousand miles away then next to a crying woman, it makes them upset and frustrated. I’m sure you all know an exception to the “rule,” and if that’s so, then great, hang onto him.

But the fact is many of us can't help it, crying at times, that is. Just like men have male hormones that make them act stupid (Mr. Toughguy, Mr. Insensitiveguy, Mr. Jerkface) so do women (Ms. Needy, Ms. Whiny, Ms. Crybaby). Men have their hormones they way they are because that's the way our species has evolved, with the man having to be the strong, dominant protector. Women also have their hormones the way they are because of evolution; they have to be emotional because their role for so long has been of the sympathetic nurturer. Now I don't know what it's like to be a guy, but I can tell you that being a woman, at times, can f#cking suck. Sure, our boobs can sometimes get us things, like free pizza, free movies, cuts in line, etc.* But to be predisposed to be so emotionally attached to, well, just about everything, can be really f#cking frustrating. Imagine not being able to communicate during crucial moments because your flooded with the urge to act like a crying child. And I’m not saying this is true for all women, but those of us who it is true for know who we are.

Not that men are by any means, any better. Ladies, many of us have been through it, the guy who can't function right due to a momentary over production of male hormones. I don't want to offend any of the men in the forum so I won’t go into it, but girls, a lot of you know what I’m talking about. And I’m not saying this is true for all men either; so don’t birth a cow over it.

Of course, men and women with good sense can fight these urges and act like normal, productive members of society, and hopefully most of us do.

My point being, I think crying ukes are so prevalent in yaoi because I guess there are women out there who would like to think, “I can cry and be needy and be myself and the man I’m interested will still find me attractive and want to f#ck me like a stallion.” Which, in general, is not true. Which is why there are things like yaoi and romance novels, they are a fantasy trip into a different reality where men act the way women would like them to.

Are you kidding me? That is exactly the sort of thing you waste money on. You pay a bunch of scientists to half-ass a study that nobody will cross-check because it's neither socially controversial nor a scientific breakthrough, and you publicise it with the intention of perpetuating a social stereotype and halt social progress.

EDIT: In case it needs to be stated, this keeps perpetuating that a woman's natural state is to passively cry and hope for the best whenever something threatens her, and that her main weapons are her tears.

Up until the 20^th century, a majority of society has been male dominated. For the longest time, they only weapons most woman had were their intelligence, their sexuality, and yes, their tears. Unless you were like Annie Oakley of course . . . which was rare.

I know that stereotypes are very frustrating, angering, and even embarrassing, but there are many of them, like it or not, that do have their origins in reality. But whether you are a man or a woman, realizing how you may fit into a stereotype puts you in a unique position to change it.

I'm not saying any of this to propetuate any stereotype, but only to offer some ideas as to why they are there and how they can be changed.

*Okay, maybe not all women, but I list these things because they are based on my own experience. Despise me if you will, but it felt damn good at the time. Plus I’m a terrible spendthrift, so free is like an orgasm to me.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Shinju

[Shadowknight12]

Crying ukes can get annoying rather fast. But I think the discussion in this thread has enlightened me as to why it is just so prevalent in a lot of yaoi.

That's always good to hear!

Interesting article.

After the last few responses, I feel I may be killed for saying this, but here it goes.

A lot of women who have been around the block a few times know that crying is the biggest turn off ever to most normal men. In my personal experience, most guys really would just be a thousand miles away then next to a crying woman, it makes them upset and frustrated. I’m sure you all know an exception to the “rule,” and if that’s so, then great, hang onto him.

But the fact is many of us can't help it, crying at times, that is. Just like men have male hormones that make them act stupid (Mr. Toughguy, Mr. Insensitiveguy, Mr. Jerkface) so do women (Ms. Needy, Ms. Whiny, Ms. Crybaby). Men have their hormones they way they are because that's the way our species has evolved, with the man having to be the strong, dominant protector. Women also have their hormones the way they are because of evolution; they have to be emotional because their role for so long has been of the sympathetic nurturer. Now I don't know what it's like to be a guy, but I can tell you that being a woman, at times, can f#cking suck. Sure, our boobs can sometimes get us things, like free pizza, free movies, cuts in line, etc.* But to be predisposed to be so emotionally attached to, well, just about everything, can be really f#cking frustrating. Imagine not being able to communicate during crucial moments because your flooded with the urge to act like a crying child. And I’m not saying this is true for all women, but those of us who it is true for know who we are.

Not that men are by any means, any better. Ladies, many of us have been through it, the guy who can't function right due to a momentary over production of male hormones. I don't want to offend any of the men in the forum so I won’t go into it, but girls, a lot of you know what I’m talking about. And I’m not saying this is true for all men either; so don’t birth a cow over it.

Of course, men and women with good sense can fight these urges and act like normal, productive members of society, and hopefully most of us do.

Thank you, that's a great example of the point I was making earlier. That is exactly what "bought" science does. It perpetuates false assumptions in order to maintain the sociological status quo that benefits a sector of the population. Science has this "dogma" about itself, the way it cannot be questioned by anyone who's not a scientist (and has been indoctrinated by the previous generation), much in the way religion is. And I know this from experience, I'm a scientist.

Men want to remain in power, dear, and they use science as a tool to do so. They tell you that you're an emotional, passive creature who can't help itself and that you're needy. You need a man in your life (and children) or else your hormones will make you do crazy things. It's okay if men are jerks to you, they can't help themselves. Neither sex has any control over it, it's the way hormones work! Biology! And you can't fight your role as a submissive nurturer while men go out and get things done because that's the way evolution made you! Evolution! Science! And you can't argue with that because you're not a scientist.

This is something most cultures have been perpetuating since the dawn of time; the speech never changes, only the rationale used to support it. It used to be about might making right, then philosophy, then religion, now science.

My point being, I think crying ukes are so prevalent in yaoi because I guess there are women out there who would like to think, “I can cry and be needy and be myself and the man I’m interested will still find me attractive and want to f#ck me like a stallion.” Which, in general, is not true. Which is why there are things like yaoi and romance novels, they are a fantasy trip into a different reality where men act the way women would like them to.

Indeed. The problem with that is that the fantasies are not power fantasies, where a woman gets equal rights with men and does the things they do. No, the problem is that those fantasies are about women being emotional and needy and where males are idolised and put in a pedestal. That's why you'll never see a man saying romance novels are a bad influence on women (other than perhaps because no man can ever measure up to the way those male characters are).

Up until the 20^th century, a majority of society has been male dominated. For the longest time, they only weapons most woman had were their intelligence, their sexuality, and yes, their tears. Unless you were like Annie Oakley of course . . . which was rare.

I know that stereotypes are very frustrating, angering, and even embarrassing, but there are many of them, like it or not, that do have their origins in reality. But whether you are a man or a woman, realizing how you may fit into a stereotype puts you in a unique position to change it.

I'm not saying any of this to propetuate any stereotype, but only to offer some ideas as to why they are there and how they can be changed.

*Okay, maybe not all women, but I list these things because they are based on my own experience. Despise me if you will, but it felt damn good at the time. Plus I’m a terrible spendthrift, so free is like an orgasm to me.

Something to think about:

It's based on reality because reality is like that, yes. But it's reality because you have become used to it, and you have become used to it because it's reality. It's a self-perpetuating cycle where each generation teaches the new one "how things are" and tells them it's useless to try and change because things have always been like that. It's predestination. It's God. It's Science. It's easy. It's comfortable. Don't rock the boat. Be a good girl.

I say we need more Joan of Arcs.

[Shinju]

Thank you, that's a great example of the point I was making earlier. That is exactly what "bought" science does. It perpetuates false assumptions in order to maintain the sociological status quo that benefits a sector of the population. Science has this "dogma" about itself, the way it cannot be questioned by anyone who's not a scientist (and has been indoctrinated by the previous generation), much in the way religion is. And I know this from experience, I'm a scientist.

That’s actually the first scientific article I read in a while. I form my opinions more on what I see and experience in real life. I’ve dated both men and women and I have dated enough to know where the stereotypes come from and that, unfortunately some of them are true. I’m sorry, but I’m just being honest about my real life experiences.

I have met men who are kind and level headed at all times, but unfortunately this is very, very rare. If you know one, or you are one, congratulations, please don’t change. Actually, I think I can only remember dating one, and I haven’t found another if his ilk for 5 years, and yes he’s strait. I have dated men who are domineering, constantly thinking they are right without room for argument (I think this might pertain to some of the scientists you referred to in the above quote), men who make trouble with their cars like driving is the battle of a “who has the biggest cock contest,” men who act, or at least try to act completely insensitive about certain subjects even if being so defies moral logic, men who get hotheaded when they are jealous, etc. I’m not saying all these men I dated were jerkfaces, I’m just saying that 99% fit into typical male stereotypes on numerous occasions. This doesn’t make them bad people, it just makes them human beings who need to analyze their actions more.

And women. Oh God. My experience with women, as friends and as lovers is that more of them than I would like to admit are catty and b!tchy and gossipy. If you are reading this and you are a woman who is not any of those things, then please, for the love of God, be my friend for I need to restore my faith in womankind. I’m not saying I am by any means perfect, but I have trouble understanding and getting along with most women for those very reasons. I don’t like to say things that I wouldn’t say to someone’s face and I can’t understand people (of either gender) who do. I’d like to think I am not b!tchy, and when I catch it rubbing off on me I try to stop, think and apologize. Albeit this is hard, especially when you are angry. I don’t always succeed, but I like to think that because I try to rationalize and self analyze that I do it much less than others.

I once dated one lesbian who, I guess not wanting to conform to stereotypes, acted tough and butch when, in retrospect, I don’t actually think that she was. I think that there are definitely women out there who are, but she just wasn’t. She wouldn’t admit when she needed or wanted things, wouldn’t admit when she wanted to be treated like a woman and wouldn’t admit that she wanted to settle down and start a family. She constantly tried to deny through words and actions that she fit into any of the normal womanly stereotypes, saying “I’m cool with this” or “I’m cool with that” and trying to make me think that she just wanted the poontang and my friendship. She was SO good at it I never knew this was a front or that she wanted anything more. I REALLY liked this girl. I was hesitant to embark on a monogamous relationship with her because I’m more emotionally attracted towards men, and I didn’t want to hurt her if I discovered I couldn’t live without cock, and plus SHE NEVER ONCE asked or hinted that she might want something like that, even when I asked if she did. I thought I may have been in love with her and I would have given that to her a relationship if she just would have been honest. And lo and behold, when I started a monogamous relationship with a guy, she goes ABSOLUTELY BAT SH!T CRAZY. I’m talking like hell hath no fury crazy.* Bitching me out to every single person that we knew, spreading rumors and lies that not just hurt me but hurt others (who had nothing to do with the situation) as well. She told people that she was in love with me and I broke her heart, and I’ll tell you what, it broke my heart to hear it. I’m just glad that I didn’t go out with her and discover what she was really like later, because that’s just not how people are supposed to conduct themselves.

In my other experiences as well, with either gender, people who try to deny who they are eventually end up snapping and it is not pretty.

So now, because of that, when I fit into a stereotype I just admit it. Yes. I am a woman. I am nice but in the appropriate situations I can be tougher than tough and I am NOT contrite (I don’t fit into that stereotype). I get emotional and I cry when I am upset and it gets in the way of my logic capabilities. I want to find a man who is my ideal partner and get married. I absolutely love children and desperately want to have one when I am financially and emotionally able. And yes, when I think someone has been repeatedly mean, unfair and just plane rude and has run out of “give them the benefit of the doubt” passes, I can be a major big fat b!tch who will win against any man or woman in verbal cut-down contest (especially against a man). I’ve tried to tone it down over the years, but I am, by nature, a ballbuster.

Men want to remain in power, dear, and they use science as a tool to do so.

True dat! But you must see that something like that is a stereotype. We, as humans, all use them, it’s just how our species builds logic.

*That is also a stereotype and I learned the hard way that IT’S TRUE.

They tell you that you're an emotional, passive creature who can't help itself and that you're needy. You need a man in your life (and children) or else your hormones will make you do crazy things. It's okay if men are jerks to you, they can't help themselves. Neither sex has any control over it, it's the way hormones work! Biology! And you can't fight your role as a submissive nurturer while men go out and get things done because that's the way evolution made you! Evolution! Science! And you can't argue with that because you're not a scientist.

I am needy and I didn’t need a man to ever tell me this. In my experience men are needy too, VERY needy. They just never admit to it and are repelled by women who are needy for some reason. Man-logic baffles me. I definitely don’t need a man and children, but I want them. My hormones do make me do crazy things on a regular basis, although I would like to think that recently I have wrangled them into control. It is not okay if men are jerks. If a man is a jerk to me I turn ballbuster. Yes, people try to tell us things that are lies in the guise of science every day in order to maintain the status quo. Scientists are humans and are therefore biased. Humans are biased but together, we can admit our biases and work together to erase them.

This is something most cultures have been perpetuating since the dawn of time; the speech never changes, only the rationale used to support it. It used to be about might making right, then philosophy, then religion, now science.

I believe that stereotypes can only be erased if we admit what about them is based in truth and work to change ourselves. If we change, then the stereotype changes with us.

Indeed. The problem with that is that the fantasies are not power fantasies, where a woman gets equal rights with men and does the things they do. No, the problem is that those fantasies are about women being emotional and needy and where males are idolised and put in a pedestal. That's why you'll never see a man saying romance novels are a bad influence on women (other than perhaps because no man can ever measure up to the way those male characters are).

Actually, my ex brought up a very good point on the subject of romance novels, one witch I agreed with him on as a conclusion I had arrived at before we had gotten together. He said that romance novels were a bad influence on women, especially young teenagers due to the fact that men just don’t behave that way. Not that they don’t measure up, it’s just that they are just not fundamentally the same as the fantasy characters women write about, apples and oranges and such. I can only liken it to a man watching a lot of porno and thinking that every woman acts like that and would like to be treated that way.

You have an excellent point when you say that the fantasies are not power fantasies.**

When I write yaoi stories I try to at least one or sometimes several of the supporting female characters very strong, just because I hate the way women are bypassed in yaoi. I can only hope that other female writers of the genere start to do the same.

**This is why I hate Hatsumi from Hot Gimmick. She’s a terrible female role model, almost as bad as April from the early Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles cartoons. If they want to start changing stereotypes, they need to try changing children’s programming!

Something to think about:

It's based on reality because reality is like that, yes. But it's reality because you have become used to it, and you have become used to it because it's reality. It's a self-perpetuating cycle where each generation teaches the new one "how things are" and tells them it's useless to try and change because things have always been like that. It's predestination. It's God. It's Science. It's easy. It's comfortable. Don't rock the boat. Be a good girl.

I say we need more Joan of Arcs.

I think our society has made great and sweeping changes toward their views on women in the past 100 years. But I also believe that in order for men and women to accept each other we also need to accept and deal with our differences in constructive ways. We’re definitely not good girls anymore and we are definitely boat rockers.

And hell yeah we need more Joan of Arcs.

[BronxWench]

As the mother of an autistic son, I'm put in mind of the Bruno Bettelheim theory that autism was caused by cold and undemonstrative parenting, which he termed "refrigerator mothering." It always struck me as utterly repugnant how the entire onus was placed squarely on the mother, when in my case, it is largely my husband who distances himself from our son.

Bettelheim's revolting theories have been largely discredited by, unsurprisingly, real science.

[Shadowknight12]

That’s actually the first scientific article I read in a while. I form my opinions more on what I see and experience in real life. I’ve dated both men and women and I have dated enough to know where the stereotypes come from and that, unfortunately some of them are true. I’m sorry, but I’m just being honest about my real life experiences.

You're being influenced by science in more ways than you think. Science gets thrown in as a justification for every assertion made, the problem is that usually it gets prefaced by "studies have shown..." or "experts say..." and people modulate their behaviour accordingly. If you consume any form of mass media at all, you've been exposed to this effect. And even if you haven't, the people you've interacted with have, or have interacted with those who have. The reason it's so pervasive and difficult to spot is precisely because it supports the ways "things have always been."

However, one can't change what one isn't aware of. Awareness is key. And what's worse, one must never confuse awareness with acceptance, which is precisely what happens when you get told "women are like this and men are like that." It's all bullshit, if you'll pardon my French, but that's exactly what they want you to think.

In my other experiences as well, with either gender, people who try to deny who they are eventually end up snapping and it is not pretty.

Aaaaaand there we go. That's exactly it. That is the type of thinking they want you to have. They want you to believe in predetermination, that the way you are (and the way everyone around you is) is set and cannot be changed, so that you don't upset the status quo.

So now, because of that, when I fit into a stereotype I just admit it. Yes. I am a woman. I am nice but in the appropriate situations I can be tougher than tough and I am NOT contrite (I don’t fit into that stereotype). I get emotional and I cry when I am upset and it gets in the way of my logic capabilities. I want to find a man who is my ideal partner and get married. I absolutely love children and desperately want to have one when I am financially and emotionally able. And yes, when I think someone has been repeatedly mean, unfair and just plane rude and has run out of “give them the benefit of the doubt” passes, I can be a major big fat b!tch who will win against any man or woman in verbal cut-down contest (especially against a man). I’ve tried to tone it down over the years, but I am, by nature, a ballbuster.

*shrug* That's just you accepting the compromise between what society has told you and what you yourself want. It's actually quite common: you can't live in a state of self-conflict for too long, so your mind naturally tries to accept a compromise (it prevents stress). That doesn't mean it's some unwavering, unchangeable, monolithic state. Human nature is fluid, but that's complicated and we like simplification, so we pretend it's rigid and unchanging. It also benefits the status quo. Raise people to think the way you want them to, then convince them they can't change what they are.

It's all, of course, patently false. People can remake themselves at will, it just takes substantial effort and self-awareness. Oh, and a willingness to accept the ugly truths in ourselves, of course. We can't change the things we don't want to see, like your lesbian ex who didn't want to admit to herself she had certain desires. If she had been able to admit that, she could have figured out what psychological need was behind that, and she would have found a potential substitute or an adequate resolution that allowed her to reconcile those needs with the self-image she wanted to have.

True dat! But you must see that something like that is a stereotype. We, as humans, all use them, it’s just how our species builds logic.

*That is also a stereotype and I learned the hard way that IT’S TRUE.

No, that's what they want you to think. They want you to think that "it's just the way things are" so that you don't fight it or try to change it. Stereotypes are the tool of the patriarchy, and some people choose to constantly and unwaveringly reject them, rather than accept them with resignation.

I am needy and I didn’t need a man to ever tell me this. In my experience men are needy too, VERY needy. They just never admit to it and are repelled by women who are needy for some reason. Man-logic baffles me. I definitely don’t need a man and children, but I want them. My hormones do make me do crazy things on a regular basis, although I would like to think that recently I have wrangled them into control. It is not okay if men are jerks. If a man is a jerk to me I turn ballbuster. Yes, people try to tell us things that are lies in the guise of science every day in order to maintain the status quo. Scientists are humans and are therefore biased. Humans are biased but together, we can admit our biases and work together to erase them.

Exactly, men are just as needy, but needing women is bad because that gives power to women over men, and the patriarchy can't have that (look at how much women's power over men is demonised in history, men hate the power a woman might have over them). Women needing men is okay, though, because that gives power to men. A needy man is going to be chastised by his peers because it's bad for him and because it might raise the idea that other men might be like that as well, and that's bad for them.

I believe that stereotypes can only be erased if we admit what about them is based in truth and work to change ourselves. If we change, then the stereotype changes with us.

I agree, but like I said above, there's a difference between awareness and acceptance. Truth is a fluid, changing thing. There is no objective, solid truth we can all see plainly with our eyes. Whoever tells you that is lying through their teeth. That would be easy and simple and if there's one thing the universe is not, is easy and simple. Your truth is yours only, and if you want to believe and accept that stereotypes are true, then you're the one bringing the consequences of such acceptance upon yourself. I choose not to accept it. Your life is under your control and it's up to you what happens in it. Stereotypes are shackles. And removing shackles is scary, I understand that. We've worn them all your life, we find them comfortable and familiar, and we're scared of what might happen if we take them off.

I just happen to personally think it's better to live painfully as a free person than to live comfortably as a prisoner of society.

Actually, my ex brought up a very good point on the subject of romance novels, one witch I agreed with him on as a conclusion I had arrived at before we had gotten together. He said that romance novels were a bad influence on women, especially young teenagers due to the fact that men just don’t behave that way. Not that they don’t measure up, it’s just that they are just not fundamentally the same as the fantasy characters women write about, apples and oranges and such. I can only liken it to a man watching a lot of porno and thinking that every woman acts like that and would like to be treated that way.

You have an excellent point when you say that the fantasies are not power fantasies.**

When I write yaoi stories I try to at least one or sometimes several of the supporting female characters very strong, just because I hate the way women are bypassed in yaoi. I can only hope that other female writers of the genere start to do the same.

**This is why I hate Hatsumi from Hot Gimmick. She’s a terrible female role model, almost as bad as April from the early Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles cartoons. If they want to start changing stereotypes, they need to try changing children’s programming!

Yeah, "men don't behaving the way they're written" falls under "can't measure up to them", sorry if I was unclear.

Ugh, don't get me talking about the way female characters are depicted in the media. Another tool of conditioning, particularly when aimed at children and teenagers.

I think our society has made great and sweeping changes toward their views on women in the past 100 years. But I also believe that in order for men and women to accept each other we also need to accept and deal with our differences in constructive ways. We’re definitely not good girls anymore and we are definitely boat rockers.

And hell yeah we need more Joan of Arcs.

I agree in general terms, but I have to disagree when it comes to the underlying assumptions in your reasoning. Men and women aren't psychologically different. Their only true differences are biological in nature, and biology is not some horrible Mistress of Predetermination that creates sweeping gender divisions. Men and women are, practically and empirically speaking, utterly identical. The biological differences (save, of course, childbearing) are utterly irrelevant when it comes to sociopsychological issues, much like the biological differences between human races.

Most sterotypes are just blunt observations made with no scientific backing... Doesn't mean they're incorrect.

Indeed, science is entirely independent on whether something is incorrect or not. A lot of "science-backed" things can be utterly incorrect (which is my entire point about sensationalist science). As for whether stereotypes are correct or not, it's all up to you. If you think they're correct, you'll see them everywhere (selection bias!) and you'll live with the consequences of such a choice.

As the mother of an autistic son, I'm put in mind of the Bruno Bettelheim theory that autism was caused by cold and undemonstrative parenting, which he termed "refrigerator mothering." It always struck me as utterly repugnant how the entire onus was placed squarely on the mother, when in my case, it is largely my husband who distances himself from our son.

Bettelheim's revolting theories have been largely discredited by, unsurprisingly, real science.

Another excellent example of bought/sensationalist science. If something happens to your child, it's the mother's fault! Of course! Shame and guilt are very powerful tools of social control, and they're almost always exclusively targeted towards women (See: slut shaming).

[BronxWench]

My dad works with mentally handicap and behaviorally autistic kids. Attributes behavior as parenting, but believes that autism is some genetic imperfection.

Just to be precise, autism has a behavioral component, to be sure, but there really is no such thing as "behaviorally autistic." One is on the spectrum, or one is not. However, I will agree that parenting does play a large role in how an autistic child behaves, and it behooves parents to learn the basics of applied behavioral analysis and implement positive behavioral reinforcements, since those have shown to have the best results.

As to the causes of autism, there is an organic component, and I am also convinced that there is a genetic predisposition that needs to exist. But since autism can manifest either from birth or occur as a regressive disorder, it remains to be seen what might trigger that genetic predisposition.

(And apologies for hijacking the thread with my foray onto my soapbox...)

Edited June 14, 2012 by BronxWench

[DemonGoddess]

@Ajwf Urrrhhhhmmmm... as Bronxie HAS an autistic child, I do believe she'd have more knowledge on the subject than you....

[BronxWench]

The lack of communication skills is a huge issue with the behaviorally challenged students. Most of them posses either autism and ADHD/ADD (Most educators will classify these as hand-in-hand). ADHD is far more common that autism in these classes, but I do believe that ADHD as a disorder is more common. While most kids with these disorders do not end up in behavioral management classes, most kids who are in these classes posses one of these traits.

There is an uncomfortable assumption that all autistics are to a degree also ADD/ADHD, which is not a firm comorbidity. There is also a presumption that all autistics are behaviorally unstable. That is also not a firm given. Many autistic children, while delayed in their communications skills and sadly lacking in social skills, still manage to observe the basic rules of a classroom without acting up or acting out.

My son's onset was regressive. He was developmentally normal until roughly 22 months. At that point, he gradually began to stop speaking, developed repetitive behaviors and eventually exhibited other early signs of autism. The onset was gradual enough that he was not formally diagnosed until the age of 4, at which point we entered him into an appropriate early intervention program.

What I find somewhat disturbing is the notion that autistic children somehow come from homes where there is a broken adult either present or waiting to happen. That is not always the case, and the broad brush serves only to obscure the fine details that make this disorder a spectrum disorder. Every child is unique and requires a highly individualized approach to ensure that he or she develops to the fullest potential. Students in my son's program have gone on to college. Others will never be able to write their own name. Yet each one has, in all the years I have known them, never been even remotely aggressive, violent or used inappropriate language. If anything, they could serve as behavioral role models for my neurotypical daughter's classmates.

[DemonGoddess]

She may. But, I've worked with my dad before I got my own job. I know a little bit, and enough to be knowledgable on the subject. After 10 years of working with him or around the children he works with, I have a fairly good idea of behavioral patterns for different disorders on different intensities of such a disease. I also grew up with an autistic cousin. The thing about autism nowadays is everyone knows someone effected by it. Again, differing levels, as in BW being a mother to me having a cousin like that.

I think your overall lack of life experience is showing here. You do use a broad brush to paint a picture of what something is, without having really lived with the condition. As to hyperactive children, having 3 of them myself, I can tell you from EXPERIENCE that much of what happens these days is directly related to the prescriptions these children are given. I was fortunate in having a pediatrician who believed that drugs were always a last resort, not the first step in treatment for this. To teach a child how to deal with ADHD takes a lot of time and work on the part of both the parent and the child. For that matter, the children I saw who went to school with mine and were on the meds, acted out far more often. What's sickening is that it was accepted and allowed due to the "condition". Enabling these children to behave poorly, because the parents were relying on the drugs to control the behavior, rather than working with the children to learn how to master their own behavior.

[Keith Inc.]

Japanese culture is much more... open. They have these fictions all over the place. I mean, capital of strange, kinky things... So, while it may not be popular or common, Japan would be the first place to have it.

i suspect that if you posted three random words in the right place, and claimed it was your fetish, nine months later, someone in Japan would claim to have cornered the market on the Rollerskating Puppy Island fetish.

Five months if one of the three words was already sexualized.

[DemonGoddess]

i suspect that if you posted three random words in the right place, and claimed it was your fetish, nine months later, someone in Japan would claim to have cornered the market on the Rollerskating Puppy Island fetish.

Five months if one of the three words was already sexualized.

very, very true....

[BronxWench]

i suspect that if you posted three random words in the right place, and claimed it was your fetish, nine months later, someone in Japan would claim to have cornered the market on the Rollerskating Puppy Island fetish.

Five months if one of the three words was already sexualized.

And they'd be cosplaying it in Harajuka, and J-box would be selling the pantsu.

[Shinju]

As the mother of an autistic son, I'm put in mind of the Bruno Bettelheim theory that autism was caused by cold and undemonstrative parenting, which he termed "refrigerator mothering." It always struck me as utterly repugnant how the entire onus was placed squarely on the mother, when in my case, it is largely my husband who distances himself from our son.

Bettelheim's revolting theories have been largely discredited by, unsurprisingly, real science.

I think that’s just the type of hooky gender biased science that Shadowknight has been talking about. Kind of gross, I can’t believe people actually took him seriously.

You sound like a strong mother, I really admire that. Every child is a blessing, but I can only imagine what you have to go through, raising an autistic son.

You're being influenced by science in more ways than you think. Science gets thrown in as a justification for every assertion made, the problem is that usually it gets prefaced by "studies have shown..." or "experts say..." and people modulate their behaviour accordingly. If you consume any form of mass media at all, you've been exposed to this effect. And even if you haven't, the people you've interacted with have, or have interacted with those who have. The reason it's so pervasive and difficult to spot is precisely because it supports the ways "things have always been."

Actually, I feel that it is more mass media’s fault than science. It’s the tv, movies, commercials and books that have the characters that reinforce gender roles starting at a young age. Gender roles and gender identity start when a child is very young, too young to understand scientific studies.

However, one can't change what one isn't aware of. Awareness is key. And what's worse, one must never confuse awareness with acceptance, which is precisely what happens when you get told "women are like this and men are like that." It's all bullshit, if you'll pardon my French, but that's exactly what they want you to think.

Pardoned! Actually, I really felt the way you did, that men and women are essentially the same, up until a few years ago. What changed my mind was hearing the story of David Reimer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer). In a nutshell, when he was a baby there was a freak circumcision accident and they ended up removing his penis. They took him to see psychologist John Money, who believed that gender identity was a learned behavior and not inborn. He recommended sexual reassignment surgery and the doctors removed his testes and his parents raised him as a girl. I remember in the news report I saw, David talked about how when he was a “little girl” he wanted to play with his brother’s toys but was given only girl toys and made to wear dresses even though he didn’t feel like a girl. He described himself during that time as very unhappy.

I believe this is the report I watched:

Aaaaaand there we go. That's exactly it. That is the type of thinking they want you to have. They want you to believe in predetermination, that the way you are (and the way everyone around you is) is set and cannot be changed, so that you don't upset the status quo.

They?

People can remake themselves at will, it just takes substantial effort and self-awareness. Oh, and a willingness to accept the ugly truths in ourselves, of course.

That’s exactly what I’m doing, accepting some of the ugly truths about myself and women in general and trying to change. If I find myself overwrought with girl feelings, I find it helpful to take a deep breath, remind myself that it’s natural and normal and tell myself I’m not going to fall prey to chick emotions. But I’m not going to go to the closet and burn all my skirts just so I can fit into an anti-stereotype, I can accept my differences from men and be okay with them.

I wish more men would do things like that, accepting stereotypes about themselves when they are true and trying to change. We still live, whether or not we like it, in a male dominated society. Can you imagine if one day almost every man in the world woke up and said, “Oh, my God. I fit into a gender stereotype in certain respects in my life and it isn’t good for society, I should try to change.”

No, that's what they want you to think. They want you to think that "it's just the way things are" so that you don't fight it or try to change it. Stereotypes are the tool of the patriarchy, and some people choose to constantly and unwaveringly reject them, rather than accept them with resignation.

From what you write it seems to me like you stereotype men, but refuse to stereotype women on the grounds that it would make women seem weak. “Men want to remain in power,” and references to what they want us to think and say, etc. I think those are all stereotypes. I mean, I do agree with many of the generalizations you make, in general terms of course. But I think it’s kind of like trying to prevent murder with the death penalty.

A needy man is going to be chastised by his peers because it's bad for him and because it might raise the idea that other men might be like that as well, and that's bad for them.

An excellent point, I think you just gave me a better understanding on what I didn’t understand before.

Yeah, "men don't behaving the way they're written" falls under "can't measure up to them", sorry if I was unclear.

My point is what is written isn’t based on reality. It’s impossible to measure up to something that isn’t based on reality. So if a woman expects a man to behave like a man in her romance novels, she is really being unfair. It would be like saying you or I can’t measure up to the characters in a porno or an erotic novel written by men.

Ugh, don't get me talking about the way female characters are depicted in the media. Another tool of conditioning, particularly when aimed at children and teenagers.

Errg! I know! It pisses me off to no end. We should start a thread on writing stronger female characters. People need to be enlightened about this matter.

That study is highly questionable, mainly because it suffers from clear gender bias.

I actually showed this article to my mom and so therefore revisited it with a more curious eye. I’m not sure whether I agree or disagree with you, but I looked it up and a majority of the scientists on that team, including one of the two leaders, were women. If it is gender biased I think that’s really scary.

[Shinju]

Actually, I think part two contains the scene I was talking about:

There are two other parts, but they can be found on youtube

[Shadowknight12]

I think that’s just the type of hooky gender biased science that Shadowknight has been talking about. Kind of gross, I can’t believe people actually took him seriously.

You sound like a strong mother, I really admire that. Every child is a blessing, but I can only imagine what you have to go through, raising an autistic son.

Indeed, that's what I mean when I talk about sensationalist science.

And knowing wench for a couple of years now (I forget how many... 2 or 3?) I can attest to the hard work and time she devotes to her children. The thought of anyone implying she's a bad parent makes my blood boil.

Actually, I feel that it is more mass media’s fault than science. It’s the tv, movies, commercials and books that have the characters that reinforce gender roles starting at a young age. Gender roles and gender identity start when a child is very young, too young to understand scientific studies.

But mass media need something to back up their statements in this era of cynicism and faithlessness. That support is science. Mass media is the mouth, but science is the man behind the curtain, and the patriatchy is the man behind the man behind the curtain.

Pardoned! Actually, I really felt the way you did, that men and women are essentially the same, up until a few years ago. What changed my mind was hearing the story of David Reimer (http://en.wikipedia....ki/David_Reimer). In a nutshell, when he was a baby there was a freak circumcision accident and they ended up removing his penis. They took him to see psychologist John Money, who believed that gender identity was a learned behavior and not inborn. He recommended sexual reassignment surgery and the doctors removed his testes and his parents raised him as a girl. I remember in the news report I saw, David talked about how when he was a “little girl” he wanted to play with his brother’s toys but was given only girl toys and made to wear dresses even though he didn’t feel like a girl. He described himself during that time as very unhappy.

Well, obviously a sexual reassignment surgery is not going to work if hormones are not corrected! That child may have had sexual reassignment surgery, but it's not mentioned whether he was given hormonal treatment, so I think it's safe to assume that he wasn't. Without functioning testicles or ovaries, the only remaining source for his sexual hormones would be his adrenal glands, which secret low levels of androgens. A person who has their ovaries or testicles removed and is not given hormone therapy will invariably start feeling physiological changes that will make them self-identify with males. The age in the wikipedia article is also key: the "activation" of adrenal glands precede puberty by around 2 years, and that child reported started feeling male at around the ages of 9-11, which is roughly 2-3 years before puberty would hit him.

Gender is a complicated thing. The problem here is that we have associated some physiological things (the things that sexual hormones cause) with the entire baggage that comes with gender. Society makes up gender roles and the characteristics that each gender is supposed to have, and then it adds the physiological characteristics to the package so that you cannot escape it. Once the patriarchy has formed a social contract where one gender rules over the other, you cannot allow exceptions or deviations, or else the fundamental pillars of the scheme collapse.

They?

The patriarchy.

That’s exactly what I’m doing, accepting some of the ugly truths about myself and women in general and trying to change. If I find myself overwrought with girl feelings, I find it helpful to take a deep breath, remind myself that it’s natural and normal and tell myself I’m not going to fall prey to chick emotions. But I’m not going to go to the closet and burn all my skirts just so I can fit into an anti-stereotype, I can accept my differences from men and be okay with them.

I wish more men would do things like that, accepting stereotypes about themselves when they are true and trying to change. We still live, whether or not we like it, in a male dominated society. Can you imagine if one day almost every man in the world woke up and said, “Oh, my God. I fit into a gender stereotype in certain respects in my life and it isn’t good for society, I should try to change.”

The ugly truths are individual. If they happen to repeat in multiple people, that's the effect of a cause, not an ineluctable pattern. If you find those ugly truths in other women, it's because society has conditioned them to think like that, not because they are an inherent part of being female.

The reason why accepting stereotypes is ill-advised is because acceptance naturally leads to inaction. Sometimes it can serve as a springboard for change, sure, but if we speak in psychological terms, acceptance leads to inaction while rejection leads to action. Acceptance leads to a state of calmness and a tendency to leave things as they are, while rejection leads to stress and disquiet and a tendency to force change.

Exceptions might exist, but suggesting a course of action based on the exceptions and not on what the course of action actually tends to cause strikes me as unwise.

From what you write it seems to me like you stereotype men, but refuse to stereotype women on the grounds that it would make women seem weak. “Men want to remain in power,” and references to what they want us to think and say, etc. I think those are all stereotypes. I mean, I do agree with many of the generalizations you make, in general terms of course. But I think it’s kind of like trying to prevent murder with the death penalty.

I refuse to stereotype men either. When I speak about power and manipulation, I speak about the human condition. I would say the same thing about women if the gender positions were reversed. Humans are selfish creatures who desire power over others to improve their personal well-being and obtain their goals at the expense of others. Exceptions do exist, of course, but that's the general norm. If men are the ones who hold the majority of the power in social scenarios, I will refer to "men" rather than "the humans who hold power in social scenarios."

An excellent point, I think you just gave me a better understanding on what I didn’t understand before.

Thanks!

My point is what is written isn’t based on reality. It’s impossible to measure up to something that isn’t based on reality. So if a woman expects a man to behave like a man in her romance novels, she is really being unfair. It would be like saying you or I can’t measure up to the characters in a porno or an erotic novel written by men.

Um, yes, I am saying that we can't measure up to fantasies, because they are unreal. Porn is rooted in fantasy, not on reality. Even amateur porn is based on a certain fantasy ("This could be happening right next door!" i.e., the fantasy of realism), and that's the only criticism you can levy on female-oriented erotica because they idolise men. Male-oriented erotica demonises or denigrates women, and that's definitely a valid criticism to levy ON TOP of the fantasy aspect.

The reason I brought it up is because female-oriented erotica is not a perfect counterpart to the male equivalent because it doesn't put a woman in a position of superiority for her to denigrate a man and use him for her pleasure while he mewls and strokes her ego about how powerful she is. Female-oriented erotica, by synching up with male-oriented erotica perfectly, rather than being its opposite, continues to perpetuate the gender roles and stereotypes.

Errg! I know! It pisses me off to no end. We should start a thread on writing stronger female characters. People need to be enlightened about this matter.

Indeed!

I actually showed this article to my mom and so therefore revisited it with a more curious eye. I’m not sure whether I agree or disagree with you, but I looked it up and a majority of the scientists on that team, including one of the two leaders, were women. If it is gender biased I think that’s really scary.

Do you want to know scary? I have read countless of stories written by female authors where rape is eroticised from the PoV of the victim.

Let that sink in for a while.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Shadowknight12