Sexuality and Categories Pertaining to Such II

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

*Can also be called Androgynous. Means the person identifies themselves as being both male and female (pan=all, gender=...duh?)

**I could find no term that meant specifically "non-gendered," which I find to be a rather important distinction. Most "in-between" gender classifications encompass both "all-gender" and "non-gender," which I don't find very fitting considering all these terms literally mean "all" or "both" genders. So, I decided to use "Third-Gender to mean "neither male or female."

Most people are raised with a binary sense of gender. The schools and most parents only teach the idea that there is only male and female. Indeed, until recently Western media rarely dealt with the idea of the "third gender" or transgender people (outside of comedy or "Oh, I must be a man to find the man I love/to be able to get ahead in life!" kinda junk). However, there are many people who believe they were born the wrong gender. Still, there are others who were both with both male and female genitalia, hormones and chromosomes causing many different variations of hermaphrodites.

Then, there are the folks who consider themselves BOTH male and female, or neither, unable to identify with any aspects of either gender. Much confusion comes with this (as well as a good deal of culture shock for a person who was never before introduced to these realities/has a hard time dealing with such realities).

There is much controversy over the nature of gender identities. Many believe you are the gender you were born as. Many, withing that category, also believe that if a person is born both, they must be cut up and such to be forced into either one of the categories, rather then simply adding a third category for people to choose who fit in it.

There others, however, who believe that it's up to the individual to choose where they belong in the realm of gender, if at all.

Where do you stand on this? Conform to society, or force society to conform to you?

[Leonhart29]

I'm 100% female in everything I do, but I do understand how someone can be confused about it. The idea that there is male, female, neuter, dual sex and such isn't new to me, but I can understand how stressful that can be to someone who can't decide who they are. Is it a chemical imbalance or are some people just born confused and unsure? Is it societies fault that these people feel like they don't have anywhere to turn? Hell yes, but what can we do about it? If one of my girls came to me and said that they didn't know who or what they were I'd be saddened but I'd still help them the best I could to find out who they want to be. I would however ask myself everyday what I did that confused them.

[ZombieDuke]

I see myself as a bit of a guy/girl. My male friends act as though I'm one of the dudes and my female friends are pretty much used to my sudden "male" outbursts. But that isn't to say that I act like a dude all the time, because I don't. Show me a cute dress, fuzzy flip-flops or a sale and I'm off cooing at whatever I come across.

Arrrgh, I guess what I'm trying to say is that, I am male in some areas in my life, but in the larger picture I am female. How's that for an answer?

[madlodger]

Yet again,

FUCK LABLES!

I think of myself and others primarily as 'human'. We all are essentially the same; two arms, two legs, one head with a bit of poorly functioning gray matter inside. Everyone has a set of genitals as well, there is a bit of variety in that, but on a bigger scale, it's not all that different.

Never Conform to society, but don't bait society either; I am not fond of revolutionaries who would like to force society to conform to them. Things are changing if we want it or not, human race as a whole is moving towards acceptance of PERSONS. (Or it's what I would like to believe, ha!)

[Guest Big Samurai]

For better or for worse, I'm a dude.

It has its ups and downs. I've read a lot about there being more than two genders in certain cultures, but the culture into which I've been born only has the two, and they're tied to biological sex, so ... I'm a dude. That's Option A. Option B is being a lady, but there's a gray area between A and B. I like to think of hermaphrodites as the hybrid cars of the sex world.

[Guest Agaib]

I think of myself and others primarily as 'human'. We all are essentially the same; two arms, two legs, one head with a bit of poorly functioning gray matter inside.

"Human" sounds an awful lot like a label as well.

In the grand scheme of things we're just a bunch of particles that behaves in a less than usual fashion. Just like in the grand scheme of things we're all "human."

See My post on the other thread about My feelings when it comes to labels.

EDIT: I identify most with the male label. So much that I've adopted the label and will often identify Myself as male (such as now).

[madlodger]

Agaib

"Human" sounds an awful lot like a label as well.

'Human' as species. It's not a label, it's an identifier.

If you called an apple "an apple", does it mean that it was labeled?

[Leonhart29]

Well - I guess if you use one of those automatic labelers than... actually - a name is a label. My true name, my given name is my label - just as my handle is my label on the forum. When you give something a name you're labeling it ... categorizing it. Human, canine, feline, bovine, Homosexual, Heterosexual - they are all types of things and therefore have been labeled for a purpose - so you know where they belong. It's sad actually - that we as humans must have labels, but we tend to do that to keep things straight in our minds. We as a species need order and this is one of the best ways for us to do so. That's just my opinion of course.

[dazzledfirestar]

I am female, not because society told me to be because I was born with a vagina, but because, to paraphrase Kevin Smith, being a girl "just feels right". If that means I label myself, fine, then so be it. It's a label I am comfortable with. This is, in my case, how I was born and how I feel I should be. I am one of the lucky ones, I know that.

Now, that being said, we all label things. It only becomes dangerous when you decide that something labelled, for example, "gay" is bad. For me to say, "I am a white, bi-sexual female" isn't a bad thing. Those are things I have in my life that help me define who I am. I would be a totally different person, with totally different experience if I were not the white, bi-sexual female that I am.

So that's my rant on labels... the moral being, it's not the labels that are bad, it's what people tend to read into them that becomes the problem. That's it from me... voila!

[Guest Agaib]

'Human' as species. It's not a label, it's an identifier.

If you called an apple "an apple", does it mean that it was labeled?

sure does. It was labeled as an apple by human beings. We decided that we needed a name for a particular group of similar objects and thus labeled it. The only difference between the words "label" and "identifier," in this context at least, is that one has a negative connotation while the other does not.

The very concept of species is a label. The only difference between human as a label and gender as a label is that acceptance of all of us being "human" is much higher. I'm just pointing out that this anti-label foolishness simply leads to the redundant rejection of language in general. The conclusion that a set of labels are bad simply because they have been used in a bad way is a fallacy. If someone drinks some beer and kills someone while driving drunk, doesn't mean that beer is inherently evil, it merely serves as a reminder that such things can be misused. All things in nature have gray areas because nature doesn't deal in very many (if any at all) in absolutes. In order to make thinking more efficient humans have created labels and names for all of the things around them its really quite sensible. Humans simply need to extend their sensibilities to the appropriate use of labels and the acceptance that labels are not absolute.

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

sure does. It was labeled as an apple by human beings. We decided that we needed a name for a particular group of similar objects and thus labeled it. The only difference between the words "label" and "identifier," in this context at least, is that one has a negative connotation while the other does not.

The very concept of species is a label. The only difference between human as a label and gender as a label is that acceptance of all of us being "human" is much higher. I'm just pointing out that this anti-label foolishness simply leads to the redundant rejection of language in general. The conclusion that a set of labels are bad simply because they have been used in a bad way is a fallacy. If someone drinks some beer and kills someone while driving drunk, doesn't mean that beer is inherently evil, it merely serves as a reminder that such things can be misused. All things in nature have gray areas because nature doesn't deal in very many (if any at all) in absolutes. In order to make thinking more efficient humans have created labels and names for all of the things around them its really quite sensible. Humans simply need to extend their sensibilities to the appropriate use of labels and the acceptance that labels are not absolute.

I'm agreeing with Agaib here, and kicking myself for putting up that last option... sort of. It sparked quite a debate here, so I guess I accomplished something here.

As for the Label or not to Label debate, well, everything is indeed labeled, as Agaib said. Any name used is a label.

And to say that labeling is bad... is well... kinda short sighted. There's a basic assumption that Humans are the only creatures to label things. To say that is also rather short sighted. Does a dog not label his owner? Using scent, sound and visual dogs label us all for recognition. If they didn't, i doubt so many people would want one as a pet. Animals in the wild label to differentiate between friend and foe, food and poison. If nature didn't label, nothing would be able to exist other then plants.

Agaib said the rest of what I was going to state, so I'll leave it at that.

As for gender identity, I don't know. I do not feel I belong to any one particular gender, but indeed exhibit aspects of both. Or neither. I feel like I live outside of gender, indeed gender doesn't really register to me in many ways other then the obvious physical.

[Guest Agaib]

In saying nature doesn't label I didn't really mean that other animals didn't label. I just meant that physical reality didn't necessarily have to conform to the groups we've put together. Its actually been shown that other animals are capable of forming "schemas." For those who don't know a schema is sort of a mental label we form for organization. Even animals as simple of pigeons can form basic schemas. I just wanted to clear that up.

[madlodger]

Wow, this is deep! I always thought that those things were called Nouns

Let me quote Essentials of English Grammar, page 4:

A noun refers to a person, place, or thing (objects, concepts, ideas, or events)

I suppose, that calling them 'labels' would be correct as well, it is a utilitarian language function. In my mind, not all nouns are labels. Labels are things which have a limiting or hostile aspect to them and produce a strong emotional response in people.

Calling people Poofs or Pussy-shine-boys, for example, has a negative aspect to it and they are, in fact, labels, LOL.

I can't express how much I enjoy this forum. Writers are really interesting people with a lot on their minds

[ZombieDuke]

I can't express how much I enjoy this forum. Writers are really interesting people with a lot on their minds [/color]

That's why we're so freakin' prone to writers block

[madlodger]

That's why we're so freakin' prone to writers block

Tell me about it I blame mine on overwork, but if we want to be honest, it's mostly laziness

[dazzledfirestar]

Tell me about it I blame mine on overwork, but if we want to be honest, it's mostly laziness

I don't call it laziness... I call it forum addiction!

[Iggy_lovechild]

Went for transmale, because honestly that's the best way to explain it away. A more complicated explaination is why I don't intend to get surgery.

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

A more complicated explaination is why I don't intend to get surgery.

I would get the surgery... If they could give me a fully functioning penis and replace my reproductive system with a fully functioning male reproductive system. I don't just want the appearance of being a man, I want all the perks too!

[madlodger]

Went for transmale, because honestly that's the best way to explain it away. A more complicated explaination is why I don't intend to get surgery.

It does explain it pretty clearly As to why not getting the surgery, well it's pretty understandable as well. Any transmale person is on a tough spot - physically, emotionally and socially. I have no first hand knowledge of that, but we all know the world we live in.

I expect that in a nearby future (like, 10 years from now) the technology would allow to grow fully functioning organs made of person's own tissues. Fully functioning testicles instead of testosteron injections, anatomically correct penis and so on.

That would be expensive, though.

[Guest echtrae]

I don't just want the appearance of being a man, I want all the perks too!

Do you mean like being able to write your name in the snow while standing up?

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

Do you mean like being able to write your name in the snow while standing up? 

YES, actually! Also, I'd like to get some women knocked up! And receive a blow job! And have sex with a guy, and all that jazz!

Does this seem odd? It seems odd to me, considering that for the most part, I feel genderless. I guess, then, that makes me more of a guy who likes to dress like a girl... with girl bits... o__O

I'm so confused... and I'm the one that STARTED this thread!

EDIT: Another question comes to mind: If you had a child who was born a hermaphrodite? Would you, immediately after their birth have them undergo surgery to achieve cosmetic normality, or leave it as it is and allow them to choose once they're older? Why would you make this decision?

I, personally, don't know what I would do if I had a hermaphrodite, there are many things to consider. Leaving them as is would indeed make a statement about how I believe the way people perceive gender needs to change, but at the cost of what? Making their life a living hell? Or would it make them a stronger person? And if I chose to have the doctors operate on the child, what would I be saying then? Would I not be beginning their life with the notion that they were born "not good enough?" Given, I could make sure they know that was never the case. Of course, then there's always the question of how they would be able to identify themselves AFTER I've chosen their gender for them.

Of course, the thing that truly turns me from the operation option is the fact that the pseudo-genitalia likely will never work fully. Then, I'm barring them from fully enjoying the more carnal pleasures when they're older (it's why I hate the idea of circumcision. Stop mutilating the penis/clit, PLEASE)!

What do you do!?

Edited July 7, 2007 by Alien Pirate Pixagi

[madlodger]

what I would do if I had a hermaphrodite

Well, the first thing I would spend a few hundred hours to read everything on the subject. And then do nothing, unless there is some obstruction for daily body functions. Why fix it if it's not broken? I'd let my kid know what's going on as early as possible and teach them how to handle this. The real time to do something is at puberty; by that time their opinion on what to do would depend on available technology and understanding of self.

[EveKnight75]

I'd already voted a while back, but I'm going to articulate now. Please bear with me, because this is very personal and I may end up rambling.

I chose female on the poll. But I've come a long way to determine that I am well and truly female.

I have PCOS, and it's a nasty case. One of the side effects is that my body produces extra testosterone.

When I started going through puberty, I started growing heavy facial hair and my voice was so deep I sounded like a guy.

I had to put up with a lot of teasing, including jokes about growing a penis. One of my drama teachers insisted on me taking on a major male role in a play because "I had the voice and the beard for it." I was 13 at the time.

That comment hurt, and I was pissed off because as the teacher, she should keep her mouth shut about stuff like that. Still, I took the role because it was an exercise in creativity, and I stole the show.

After that, the teasing never seemed to hurt that much. How could it? I have a hormonal disorder and I live with it. I've taken both male and female roles in plays and I enjoy it. Maybe I should be thanking that bitch of a teacher.

Now that I'm past the teen stage for the most part, my hormones are balancing out. The facial hair has slowed down. My voice is still deep, but it's definitely feminine, and a lot of guys claim that it's sexy and a huge turn on. Comparisons include (looks at right) Selina Kyle/Catwoman. It turns out that I have a pretty face too, once the acne and facial hair clears up.

I also have a great alto, but I can do soprano pretty well thanks to the fact that I always tried to make my voice sound higher when I was in junior high and high school. Not to mention the fact that I'm quick on picking up voice imitations.

I'll always have PCOS, and my body is still developing because the disorder has slowed down the entire process. Still, in the end, it has taught me a lot about where I stand when it comes to gender.

I've struggled to keep convincing myself that I am female and nothing is going to change that unless I want it otherwise. It has to be my choice. Frankly, I'm comfortable being female, and a I am a bit girly at times, so that's where I'll stay despite the fact that I enjoy exploring the other side of the fence and not being a typical female most of the time.

So yeah, I voted female. At the same time, I have no issues with transgendered people. Hell, one of my friends is transgendered. Another friend is considering a sex-change operation in the future. On some level, you could say that I'm a "cross-dresser" because I play male roles and I have a fetish for strap-ons and pegging.

I think it's important for everyone to be comfortable in their own skin and I honestly wish others would accept them just as they are.

Now onto the hermaphrodite thing.

I was actually born with an extra digit on one of my hands. This digit split off from another digit at the base. The doctors were heavily encouraging an operation to have it removed. My mom was bending but my dad refused to. He told the doctors to wait a few months while he thought about it.

His research revealed that it's highly likely that the patient would suffer nerve damage as a result of the surgery. As far as my parents could see, the digit was fully functional, and it wasn't impairing my mobility or causing me any pain or discomfort.

My dad's final decision was that I wouldn't have the surgery until I was legally old enough to authorize it myself because he sure as hell wasn't going to. I was his perfect little angel. My mom was still worried about the effects it would have on my social growth, but dad told her that I'd be fine.

I did get teased a lot in elementary school, and I kinda resented him for it. But as time passed, I learned to like my extra digit. In fact, I can do cool tricks with it now and I'm fully ambidextrous. When my attitude changed, so did everyone else's. Now, a lot of people think it's really cool, including little kids.

In the end, I'm glad my dad didn't listen to the doctors. I don't plan on ever getting rid of the extra digit. Perfection is overrated.

If I end up having a kid with an extra appendage, I'll do the exact same thing. This includes intersexualism. I know that my child would have a hard time growing up. I know that my child wouldn't be able to fit in or make friends easily. I know that my child would hate the condition, hate life, and hate me above all.

I also know that my child would grow up to be a strong and amazing individual. I know that my child would eventually accept the condition. I know that the few friends my child would have would always be true friends. I know that one day my child would understand and forgive me.

I know that no matter what, I would love, support and encourage that child. I'd also have the added advantage of having some idea of what that child is going through because in a way, I went through it myself.

Kinda sappy and ironic coming from me, considering the fact that I don't plan on having children.

P.S. I think the third-gender term you were looking for is "androgen". An androgynous person has a physical appearance that combines male and female characteristics in such a way that the person ends up with a look that isn't specific to either gender. This is common in the facial features of boy/girl twins before they start going through puberty. That's just an example - there are other people who end up looking neither male nor female specifically.

[Iggy_lovechild]

I would get the surgery... If they could give me a fully functioning penis and replace my reproductive system with a fully functioning male reproductive system. I don't just want the appearance of being a man, I want all the perks too!

Well...yes, that's preciesily how I feel too, though I really couldn't care less if I could make babies or not. As long as I could be gurenteed to get an erection without pills or a pump, I'd be quite content.

[StoryJunkie]

I found Eve's post quite touching.

While reading the thread all kinds of ideas and postulations came to mind, but it all went out the window. That was an awesome post.

*gathers thoughts...

Some of the comments made about labelling should be reconsidered in my opinion, since there is a difference in naming something or someone, and labelling, which is more like what bullies do in the playground ("Four-eyes!") (I got that alot. I could feel my status amoung others plummet, like a baseball falling from the sky.) Labels have the potential to damage as much as define.

And I noticed "Amazon" wasn't on there (I probably wouldn't have picked it, but it came to mind when both Pixagi and Zombie stated that some of the things they do and like to do are male rather than female.) HIstorically speaking, however, "Amazon" in itself is a misnomer that in this society has become to be known as a tall, strong beautiful war-like woman with big breasts who prefer other women and submissive men.

In reality, it was the name the Greeks gave a tribe whose women participated in war (to the Greeks it was taboo for a woman to participate in such things. Sparta was for MEN! so a war-like woman surprised them), by cutting off their right breasts so that their bow would be unimpeded. "Amazon" is Greek for "breast-less" Which is diametrically opposed to the modern day idea of Amazon. I blame "Wonder-Woman" for turning everyone's head into mush. The real Amazon did not love a submissive man, but....hang on, have I gone off topic...Oh...My...