I HATE YAOI

[EveKnight75]

I don't think the comment was offensive at all. In fact, I agree with you on the whole cleanliness bit, if only because I enjoy my fantasy as long as there's a little bit of reality injected into it.

As for gay men acting girly, I think one of my friends put it well. "I'm Mexican and I'm gay. I have every right to be cheesy." He can be very masculine when he wants to be, but he loves to dress in drag once in a while just for the fun of it, as well as acting like "one of the girls". Being gay just gives him an excuse not to explain his actions to others. Maybe it's like that for other gay men who act "girly".

He also keeps a douching kit around because, yes, sex can be disgusting if the asshole isn't clean. Condoms not only help with the cleanliness, they also help prevent STIs to an extent.

I also have issues with the whole seme/uke, girly-boy, OOC gay characters/relationships in fanfiction. I also have issues with badly written lesbian relationships, but those seem to occur less often in fanfiction (the whole lesbian thing in general, that is).

Maybe if the writer concentrated on developing each man as an individual outside of his sexuality, s/he could integrate the sexuality into the main personality more smoothly and realistically. Once that's settled, s/he could salvage the bad sex scenes to an extent.

[Guest Helluin]

I wonder if lesbian stories are slightly less prone to the seme/uke style of writing. I know there are some relationships like that in the real world, but butch/femme has really fizzled out in my lifetime. It's more of a question of personality, rather than a set role: one partner may be more aggressive and/or tend to take charge more often than not, but I don't see people falling into exclusive or stereotyped roles so much. I write my Yuri accordingly.

I also wonder whether there's a greater proportion of yuri stories being written by people who actually have real world experience with them. There's a heck of a lot of straight women writing yaoi who've probably never witnessed it. I know some guys must write yuri for similar reasons -- two sets o' tits better than one! -- but I have a feeling it's not as common.

Hmmm.

And how common, really, is seme/uke among real gays these days? I donno. That's one scene I'm fairly ignorant about.

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

I wonder if lesbian stories are slightly less prone to the seme/uke style of writing. I know there are some relationships like that in the real world, but butch/femme has really fizzled out in my lifetime. It's more of a question of personality, rather than a set role: one partner may be more aggressive and/or tend to take charge more often than not, but I don't see people falling into exclusive or stereotyped roles so much. I write my Yuri accordingly.

I also wonder whether there's a greater proportion of yuri stories being written by people who actually have real world experience with them. There's a heck of a lot of straight women writing yaoi who've probably never witnessed it. I know some guys must write yuri for similar reasons -- two sets o' tits better than one! -- but I have a feeling it's not as common.

Hmmm.

And how common, really, is seme/uke among real gays these days? I donno. That's one scene I'm fairly ignorant about.

In the gay community, the seme/uke deal is pretty none-existant, though a lot of people woth little to no actual, real world experience with such things do indeed believe it's the basis of gay sex. I remember a lot of girls who were experimenting with their sexuality in 9th and 10th grade believing in the butch/bitch system simply because they knew shit about it.

When it comes to yuri stories, the brunt of which I've read were like watching lesbian porn, which is geared to straight men, not to actual lesbians. Therefore, it's little more then "Hey! Let me go down on you!" "Okay!" There has been some that actually felt convincing and in character to me, but they are few and far between. Truly, I've given up on the entire subject matter unless I come across some done by an author I trust.

[Guest Big Samurai]

When it comes to yuri stories, the brunt of which I've read were like watching lesbian porn, which is geared to straight men, not to actual lesbians. Therefore, it's little more then "Hey! Let me go down on you!" "Okay!" There has been some that actually felt convincing and in character to me, but they are few and far between. Truly, I've given up on the entire subject matter unless I come across some done by an author I trust.

*good-natured wince*

Hahaha, yeah, that's ... rather true. There's worlds of difference between yuri-by-the-real-deal and yuri-by-straight-men, which is probably why you won't catch writing yuri. I mean, I don't really have a problem with yuri-by-straight-men; goodness knows I read it often enough. However, I know it doesn't have authenticity, for the most part.

Then again, yuri fans are looking for hot action, not realism, right?

[WotanAnubis]

When it comes to yuri stories, the brunt of which I've read were like watching lesbian porn, which is geared to straight men, not to actual lesbians. Therefore, it's little more then "Hey! Let me go down on you!" "Okay!" There has been some that actually felt convincing and in character to me, but they are few and far between. Truly, I've given up on the entire subject matter unless I come across some done by an author I trust.

You know, I honestly don't know in which of the two camps I fall here.

On the one hand, let's be honest here, I mostly write simple PWPs where the whole point is that the women involved have sex with each other.

On the other hand, I've scrapped lots of stories simply because I couldn't get the characters to behave in-character enough for my tastes.

I mean, I'd like to think that the kind of lesbians I write aren't bleached blondes with very long fingernails, but...

Ah well. Never mind.

[Guest Helluin]

*OWOWOWOW*

Er, yeah. I suspect I've posted one of the very few smuts on the internet that included a veiled reference to an emory board before things started getting steamy.

Here's a weird thing which may somehow be related to bad yaoi.

I almost never write yuri because it's invariably drawing heavily from personal experience, and I feel a little shy about it. On the other hand, I spout off buckets of het where the sex is always amazin', and they know just what to do, and it's all fireworks and hawt and heavy. It's far less realistic and more idealized. My het stories, in a way, suffer the same complaints you're making for the yaoi.

Do people sometimes write yaoi because it feels a bit safer writing something that isn't self-insert? They go for something that seems exotic, sexy, but Not In Their Own Living Room? And hence it's prone to stereotypes, idealization, inaccuracies, depending on the knowledge of the author?

[Iggy_lovechild]

Oh, and I really didn't mean to offend anyone. It's just a personal squick of mine and I kind of voiced it without thinking about it hurting someone's feelings or making them feel bad in any way. I should have thought it out first, but, as per the usual, I didn't.

Oh don't worry, you didn't offend me at all. Ironically, when it comes to anal practices in RL I'm just as compulsive. I guess when I'm writing erotica I can somewhat divorce myself from some of my issues (same reason I can write romance, I suppose, considering I'm one the least romantic people around). Though you totally get a cookie for the rimming. I can barely read a rimjob scene much less write it. Usually if it's in the story code I just skip over the story or if I actually decide the story's summary interests me enough to deal with it, I'll just kinda...skim that part and then move on to stuff that doesn't squick me.

Sometimes I think the genre breeds a kind of paranoia among the women who write m/m erotica. Because of all the idiot fangirls and the majority of the portrayal of homosexual relationships in the fanfiction (and sometimes the fandoms themselves), yaoi has gotten a bad wrap. And if you're female and writing it, sometimes I get the feeling that there's more pressure to excel and go above and beyond, lest you get labeled as one of "those stilly fangirls". Of course, that might just be me....

[Guest DarkAvenger]

And how common, really, is seme/uke among real gays these days? I donno. That's one scene I'm fairly ignorant about.

I guess it really depends on exactly what you mean by seme/uke.

If we're talking top/bottom, well, I have several gay friends in real life, not just on the internet.

One of them is a bottom (read: uke) and he absolutely refuses to be a top. Even mentioning him being seme squicks him to the point he actually blanches and says he feels sick to his stomach. So he's a hardcore bottom... period. And, ever since he came out to me, he started acting pretty girly.

His ex was uh... well, for lack of a better term, a flaming gay. o_0 He literally did the whole hand flap thing and talked in a high pitch whiny voice, made constant gay jokes, etc.

Yet another of my friends will readily switch between top and bottom. And depending on the relationship he's in, he tends to act slightly differently.

So, I guess in a way, yes, seme/uke does exist. Though, it's possible, I don't know what on earth the "real" definitions of seme and uke are. *shrug*

[Guest Helluin]

Honestly I'm not sure either, and I think I'm conflating it with eramenos/erastes in ancient Greece, since I've studied classics for so many years.

That's the one that would be so very problematic in the modern world: older, wise guardian takes budding 16-to-18-year-old under his wing, teaches him how to be a man, educates him, sponsors him, encourages him... and seduces him, with lots of soppy sappy gifts. The boy is the bottom.

I don't have the foggiest clue what Japanese seme/uke means, really, except I get the impression it's another active/passive thing where who's on top takes on a wider significance than just the mechanics.

[AngelMeiru]

The only type of Yaoi I like is guro yaoi (bloody and gory content) that involves being slowly tortured to death. Especially if it's a male chanracter that I REALLY hate with all my heart.

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

Honestly I'm not sure either, and I think I'm conflating it with eramenos/erastes in ancient Greece, since I've studied classics for so many years.

That's the one that would be so very problematic in the modern world: older, wise guardian takes budding 16-to-18-year-old under his wing, teaches him how to be a man, educates him, sponsors him, encourages him... and seduces him, with lots of soppy sappy gifts. The boy is the bottom.

I don't have the foggiest clue what Japanese seme/uke means, really, except I get the impression it's another active/passive thing where who's on top takes on a wider significance than just the mechanics.

In Japanese media, as far as I know, it's the older/wiser/mature one who's on top, much like in that classic you mentioned. I'm not sure about actual Japanese culture, but it would lead to suggest that it's much the same way.

Therefore, when it comes to Japanese stories, I would think that would be how to judge the Seme/Uke situation.

Though, I've always based it off of the personality of the characters. This, of course, is not to say which is more "girly" then the other, but which would be more or less likely to be dominate based on force of personality. For instance, in a Naruto/Sasuke relationship, I can see the two of them switching, or fighting for dominance based off of their canon relationship in the show. For a, say, Naruto/Gaara relationship, while still keeping Gaara a total badass, I can see Naruto mostly topping. Why? Because Gaara is a total wreck. There's a lot of psychology involved with who would bugger who that a lot of fangirls ignore for the sake of "ease."

[Squallfan]

Here's a link to a guide in the resource section that I found most helpful, by Lorenquille. Gay Sex Myths. A Guide For Slash Writers I read this before I wrote any Yaoi.

[Iggy_lovechild]

Do people sometimes write yaoi because it feels a bit safer writing something that isn't self-insert? They go for something that seems exotic, sexy, but Not In Their Own Living Room? And hence it's prone to stereotypes, idealization, inaccuracies, depending on the knowledge of the author?

That's the basic idea that all the analytical types have when they support young women reading yaoi. It's not as threatening as het erotica or the soft-core porn of your common romance novel. There's no impossibly perfect female lead to put pressure on young women or make them fel bad about themselve, just two beautiful boys in love/lust. Of course this is just a theory and I guess a pretty good one at that. Unfortuantly, with all the good it does, it also breeds terrible stereotypes.

For the record, I read an article about yaoi in one of those local free alt papers (yaoi con had just passed) and it featured the literal translations of seme and uke. I remember that seme was "predator" and while the exact wording for "uke" escapes me it was something like "submissive" or "passive".