Elves/Immortals and ages

[Shadowknight12]

When it comes to vampires, elves, immortals and all sorts of supernatural critters, I don't think it's truly a matter of age, but a matter of maturity and experience. If the difference in both is too high, it's very easily to create an unbalanced relationship that, to me in particular, makes it impossible for the reader to enjoy. I think it's a matter of balance. If one of them is very old and the other is young, find a way to give the younger one positive traits (and the older one, negatives) so that both of them stand on equal footing. Otherwise we fall into the old trap of Super Awesome Perfect At Everything and Average Person (and sometimes not even that).

[BronxWench]

Elves being more my obsession than vampires, there's also the mindset of the elves in question to consider. I tend to stick with the Forgotten Realms version of elves, with a smattering of Tolkien thrown in, and it is not uncommon in that fic/game world for elves to take human lovers despite a huge disparity in lifespans. Elves also mature at a slower rate, and young adulthood for an elf would put them perilously close to the squick line in terms of age gap to begin with, so as a sensible elf-obsessed writer, I make the mental adjustment and assume any reader will do so as well if they're playing in my fandom.

One interesting bit of FR elven culture is the notion that the past serves as lessons for the future, but living in the past makes a longer lifespan intolerable, and therefore, living in the now is encouraged. A younger partner, human or elf, does not necessarily become a mere protege, or even bed toy, under that outlook, but a way to approach life with the fresh viewpoint of the younger partner.

What does drive me insane, however, is the game writers' complete lack of regard for these niceties. If I game with an elven character, that OC should NOT be 120 years old when the storyline of the game calls for an OC to have endured a traumatic experience that in the world timeline occurred 18 years ago. It's thoughtless writing, and eggs on people like me to insist on driving a double-decker bus through the resulting plot hole.

Trust me, I do NOT need encouragement.

[Shadowknight12]

What does drive me insane, however, is the game writers' complete lack of regard for these niceties. If I game with an elven character, that OC should NOT be 120 years old when the storyline of the game calls for an OC to have endured a traumatic experience that in the world timeline occurred 18 years ago. It's thoughtless writing, and eggs on people like me to insist on driving a double-decker bus through the resulting plot hole.

Uhhhh, what's the problem with that? He experienced a traumatic event in his youth, which you can use as a part of his backstory to justify his choices. An elf at 102 is like a human at 14 (see Spoiler below). Don't we have a lot of well-written stories about humans experiencing traumatic events at such a young age? It can serve to explain both the elf's and the human's choice in adventuring career, their class levels (why, I was going to be a warrior, but that event awakened something in me... sorcery!), etc. It's a bit trite, but hey! If the player can pull it off...

Though if you're aiming it from the 'elves try not to live in the past' angle... there are things that you can't just ignore. Ignoring a traumatic event is called being in denial. It's not that healthy for your mental state.

But since we're touching the whole 'elf-slash-supernaturally-long-lived-critter' angle, it's important not to go overboard with the 'immensely old' approach, because it just skids into Mary Sue territory, with a healthy dosis of plothole and Deus Ex Machina. In the real world, age brings wisdom and experience at the hefty expense of physical fitness. In supernatural works, this isn't necessarily the case. Usually, old means wiser, smarter, more powerful... and with the body of a person in their twenties. That's just Suish. If I'm reading about an old character, it'd be nice to be able to explore the flaws that come with old age, especially if the writer themselves must take the time to think things true and come up with reasonable explanations for what they're writing.

Using the PB's adulthood ages (110 for elf and 15 for human),

110 ----- 102

15 ------ X = 13.9, rounded up to 14.

[BronxWench]

Uhhhh, what's the problem with that? He experienced a traumatic event in his youth, which you can use as a part of his backstory to justify his choices. An elf at 102 is like a human at 14 (see Spoiler below). Don't we have a lot of well-written stories about humans experiencing traumatic events at such a young age? It can serve to explain both the elf's and the human's choice in adventuring career, their class levels (why, I was going to be a warrior, but that event awakened something in me... sorcery!), etc. It's a bit trite, but hey! If the player can pull it off...

Though if you're aiming it from the 'elves try not to live in the past' angle... there are things that you can't just ignore. Ignoring a traumatic event is called being in denial. It's not that healthy for your mental state.

But since we're touching the whole 'elf-slash-supernaturally-long-lived-critter' angle, it's important not to go overboard with the 'immensely old' approach, because it just skids into Mary Sue territory, with a healthy dosis of plothole and Deus Ex Machina. In the real world, age brings wisdom and experience at the hefty expense of physical fitness. In supernatural works, this isn't necessarily the case. Usually, old means wiser, smarter, more powerful... and with the body of a person in their twenties. That's just Suish. If I'm reading about an old character, it'd be nice to be able to explore the flaws that come with old age, especially if the writer themselves must take the time to think things true and come up with reasonable explanations for what they're writing.

Specifically, in my NWN2 world, the PC is supposed to have a shard of a sword buried in their chest in infancy. The game timeline would have that occur approximately 18 years prior to when the game begins. Sorry, but the elf PC was not an infant when the shard would have to have been buried in his/her chest if said elf PC is 120 when the game begins. Logic gaps drive me batshit.

Traumatic events in even an elven version of childhood or adolescence should definitely have a lasting effect. No arguments there from me. The "leave the past behind" philosophy should apply more to mistakes made and lessons learned, and also to not allowing the sorrow of losing a shorter-lived lover to color the rest of one's life. Yes, you mourn, but mourning for 400 years would be excessive. And yes, while older usually means wiser, smarter and more powerful, I always keep in the back of my mind that true wisdom occurs when we realize how very little we do know. Approaching life with an open mind and a willingness to see it fresh, treating each new day as a new experience, well, that has virtues all its own.

I'm hardly the same person I was at 20, or 30, or even 40. Honestly, I'd slap my 20yo self senseless were I to meet me.

[Shadowknight12]

Specifically, in my NWN2 world, the PC is supposed to have a shard of a sword buried in their chest in infancy. The game timeline would have that occur approximately 18 years prior to when the game begins. Sorry, but the elf PC was not an infant when the shard would have to have been buried in his/her chest if said elf PC is 120 when the game begins. Logic gaps drive me batshit.

Traumatic events in even an elven version of childhood or adolescence should definitely have a lasting effect. No arguments there from me. The "leave the past behind" philosophy should apply more to mistakes made and lessons learned, and also to not allowing the sorrow of losing a shorter-lived lover to color the rest of one's life. Yes, you mourn, but mourning for 400 years would be excessive. And yes, while older usually means wiser, smarter and more powerful, I always keep in the back of my mind that true wisdom occurs when we realize how very little we do know. Approaching life with an open mind and a willingness to see it fresh, treating each new day as a new experience, well, that has virtues all its own.

I'm hardly the same person I was at 20, or 30, or even 40. Honestly, I'd slap my 20yo self senseless were I to meet me.

Oh, that! Yes, yes, now I see what you mean. I remember that glaring plothole. Or Elayne's 'I have been watching you ever since you were a child' speech, which comes off quite creepy AND nonsensical if you're an elf as well. Though I normally chuck that to 'developer laziness' which admittedly is an endemic malady in the gaming world.

Actually, you touch a good point there. If the elf takes on a shorter-lived lover, they're going to watch them get old and die without being able to do a thing about it. If that's the first time it happened and nobody warn them, I can understand, but if it's happened to you before, isn't it masochistic? Assuming you get attached, of course, since I can definitely understand an elf who takes humans as playthings or bed-warmers and doesn't really care when they die. If the elf, however, DOES care, no amount of wisdom or 'let's just take life as it comes' philosophy is going to dull the pain when their loved ones die. Think of humans and pets. We might go through dozens of them throughout our lives. We mourn and move on, yes, but doesn't it hurt all the same when they die? No amount of 'been there before' helps if you've truly grown attached to them. And we're talking about pets here, it's far worse when it's a lover.

And hey, I don't think mourning for 400 years is excessive. Remember elves are very slow to change and can become rather set in their ways. I've known people who have mourned someone for two thirds of their whole lives... imagine an elf like that.

[BronxWench]

Well, yes. I miss all my pets that have passed away, up to and including one particular fish. But I still think that mourning someone for 400 years, unless they're a bonded mate, is a little too long. All that the elf could have to offer is lost while they indulge in their grief. Case in point is another abused NPC from NWN2, Daeghun. He comes across cold and emotionless, and they drop the teaser that his wife died in the original attack on West Harbor. Okay, 18 years of mourning is not excessive by elven standards, or even human standards, but the elf could possess an emotion or two by now.

I shouldn't complain, though. It's all fodder for the overactive imagination that drives me.

[wanderingaddict]

I think that you're both forgetting that elves aren't "naturally" staid and set in their ways, but they are relative to the human pace of life. elves that grow up surrounded by other elves, where planning long-term means "sometime in the next 20 years" is the norm, are slow to change and set in their ways, whereas elves that grow up with a bunch of humans adjust to the much "quicker" pace of life.

and I've always had a problem with the "adult" status of an elf. they reach sexual maturity at like, 20 or so right? to me it's really more of a "mark of status" so to speak. at 100 you're a full-fledged, "graduated college" out on your own independent adult. anything under that is the same way we'd view a high school student, or a college kid. they're mature in a lot of ways, but not quite at the right stage just yet.

[BronxWench]

I think that you're both forgetting that elves aren't "naturally" staid and set in their ways, but they are relative to the human pace of life. elves that grow up surrounded by other elves, where planning long-term means "sometime in the next 20 years" is the norm, are slow to change and set in their ways, whereas elves that grow up with a bunch of humans adjust to the much "quicker" pace of life.

and I've always had a problem with the "adult" status of an elf. they reach sexual maturity at like, 20 or so right? to me it's really more of a "mark of status" so to speak. at 100 you're a full-fledged, "graduated college" out on your own independent adult. anything under that is the same way we'd view a high school student, or a college kid. they're mature in a lot of ways, but not quite at the right stage just yet.

Very true and good point! The years between 20 and 100 are the high school/undergrad equivalent for elves, and yes again, elves might start a project and walk away for 20 years or so, and it's fine by them. But elves that choose to live among humans, or (gasp!) to have a relationship with a shorter-lived partner are not going to mourn forever, because there's some foreknowledge that this isn't a lifetime commitment for the elf in the same way it is for the human.

And having said that, a fairly moribund piece just got a serious kick in the ass, and has jumped much higher on the priority list...

[Shadowknight12]

Very true and good point! The years between 20 and 100 are the high school/undergrad equivalent for elves, and yes again, elves might start a project and walk away for 20 years or so, and it's fine by them. But elves that choose to live among humans, or (gasp!) to have a relationship with a shorter-lived partner are not going to mourn forever, because there's some foreknowledge that this isn't a lifetime commitment for the elf in the same way it is for the human.

And having said that, a fairly moribund piece just got a serious kick in the ass, and has jumped much higher on the priority list...

While I agree with your and wanderingaddict on the fact that elves might adapt to humans (I don't necessarily see this as a rule, I think that it's possible that the elven mind simply functions in a different level than the human's, and unless the elf is raised since birth in human lands, he's never going to think the same way as one), I don't necessarily believe that elves really do behave like that. Some might, of course, but I don't see it as the norm. I am honestly not fond at all of the old "elf sees humans as cute little playthings to keep himself amused throughout the ages" that is disturbingly prevalent in many stories. If the elf was raised amongst humans, he might see having a relationship with one as perfectly normal (or might in fact be attracted to his elven brethren due to the mystique of rediscovering his past), but I think that normal elves (those from elven communities) wouldn't necessarily think of mating with humans as something innately desirable. Sure, it's a new, invigorating experience, but I'd wager that there's just as many elves who'd rather not bother with them and pick an equally long-lived partner to spend the rest of their lives with. Which, in my opinion, makes a whole of a lot more sense (since I honestly have a hard time comprehending how an elf who allegedly cares about his mates actively pursues a cycle that ends inevitably in death over and over again).

And also, the whole "it isn't a lifetime commitment for the elf the way it is for a human" just reeks of relationship inequality. The human spends his entire life with the elf and when he dies, the elf just shrugs and moves on? Yeah, you can't tell me the elf actually cares in this case. Like I said, I can understand the elf that doesn't give a crap, but how do you reconcile such masochism, caring about someone you know is going to die in what, for the elf, is a rather short time?

[BronxWench]

While I agree with your and wanderingaddict on the fact that elves might adapt to humans (I don't necessarily see this as a rule, I think that it's possible that the elven mind simply functions in a different level than the human's, and unless the elf is raised since birth in human lands, he's never going to think the same way as one), I don't necessarily believe that elves really do behave like that. Some might, of course, but I don't see it as the norm. I am honestly not fond at all of the old "elf sees humans as cute little playthings to keep himself amused throughout the ages" that is disturbingly prevalent in many stories.

Ack! I wasn't going for that impression at all!

If the elf was raised amongst humans, he might see having a relationship with one as perfectly normal (or might in fact be attracted to his elven brethren due to the mystique of rediscovering his past), but I think that normal elves (those from elven communities) wouldn't necessarily think of mating with humans as something innately desirable. Sure, it's a new, invigorating experience, but I'd wager that there's just as many elves who'd rather not bother with them and pick an equally long-lived partner to spend the rest of their lives with. Which, in my opinion, makes a whole of a lot more sense (since I honestly have a hard time comprehending how an elf who allegedly cares about his mates actively pursues a cycle that ends inevitably in death over and over again).

Just going off the FR world, there are elven subraces for whom mating with a human is so repugnant that it's unthinkable, and so yes, this is valid. Sun elves in particular do not view elf-human pairings as even remotely acceptable, and even many moon elves will have the same reaction. Wood elves are not as particular, and in the Yuirwood area, it is the half-elven community that act as the protectors of the land and the hidden star elf community. It's also not a given that an elf who has a relationship with a human is necessarily going to seek out another human partner.

And also, the whole "it isn't a lifetime commitment for the elf the way it is for a human" just reeks of relationship inequality. The human spends his entire life with the elf and when he dies, the elf just shrugs and moves on? Yeah, you can't tell me the elf actually cares in this case. Like I said, I can understand the elf that doesn't give a crap, but how do you reconcile such masochism, caring about someone you know is going to die in what, for the elf, is a rather short time?

Let me posit this. From an actuarial perspective, women tend to live longer than men. Statistically speaking, most women form relationships with men either their age or older. This, too, is both relationship inequality, and masochism, since the odds are strongly in favor of the woman outliving the man. When my Other Half dies, I'm certainly not going to just shrug and move on since I happen to love the daft bastard, but the alternative, not wanting a partner in my life because I'm terrified he will die before me and leave me alone, is equally untenable. There isn't a safe formula for loving someone, and making age or possible differences in lifespan a criteria for deciding who to love is colder than I can be.

Now, having said all that, we've sort of hijacked this away from the original notion of older people being sexually appealing. So, in a futile effort to pretend to stay on topic, one thing that has always interested me when this topic comes up is the biological dichotomy that exists in peak sexual appetite/interest between men and women. Men peak rather early on, biologically speaking, in the late teens to mid twenties. Women don't begin hitting their sexual stride until they are in their thirties. And yet, at least in Western society, older men are distinguished, and older women are just old. Hmm...

I shall now take my not-yet wrinkly butt off the soapbox and turn it over to the next person.

[wanderingaddict]

I agree with Snight, about how I honestly can't see an elf being long-term attracted to a human. I mean, loving a pet dog for all its life is easy, because you don't really see it get wrinkly and fat and tumor-y (and if you do, it doesn't really matter since you're not having sex with it). in just ten years a human will be radically different though, wheras an elf will be pretty much at the exact same point in their life still. so *shrug*.

sorry DG I'd talk about vampires, but I honestly have no idea about anything in the buffy-verse. I stopped watching the show back when Cordelia was still the silly popular girl-rival

Age differences can be neat, even really cool (for both genders) when they're portrayed in an appropriate light. Too often though authors make the older woman come off as "desperate" or "lucky" (as though she shouldn't normally be getting some fine young tail) whereas the older guy almost always comes off as a playboy or a sexy tiger. an unfair dichotomy to be sure

[Shadowknight12]

Good, now I can reply without derailing.

addict stated what I think of the issue pretty well, so I think that's covered.

BronxWench: A woman might outlive a man for 10-20 years (or even 30, in some cases). Those years are not spent at the peak of one's physical and mental maturity, like elves. They're spent fruitlessly battling decrepitude, senility, dementia, illness and ultimately death. You're not going to have TIME to mourn your loved one, you'll be more concerned about remembering important stuff before it fades for good, being able to shit on your own and praying not to slip and fall every time you go downstairs. Your GOOD years, anywhere from say, teens to 60-70, will most likely be spent together. Sure, he might die first, but you're not going to be able to go cruising for young tail afterwards. You'll be lucky if you remember the anniversary of his death, after all, so mourning him while you can is a pretty good idea.

[BronxWench]

BronxWench: A woman might outlive a man for 10-20 years (or even 30, in some cases). Those years are not spent at the peak of one's physical and mental maturity, like elves. They're spent fruitlessly battling decrepitude, senility, dementia, illness and ultimately death. You're not going to have TIME to mourn your loved one, you'll be more concerned about remembering important stuff before it fades for good, being able to shit on your own and praying not to slip and fall every time you go downstairs. Your GOOD years, anywhere from say, teens to 60-70, will most likely be spent together. Sure, he might die first, but you're not going to be able to go cruising for young tail afterwards. You'll be lucky if you remember the anniversary of his death, after all, so mourning him while you can is a pretty good idea.

I really wanted to mull a bit before I tackled this. This keeps drifting back to the notion of love versus the sexual appeal of older people, or the sexual appetites of older people, and that's really two different topics.

On love, yes, we mourn when we lose a loved one. We mourn for ourselves. We're the ones stuck here without them, after all. Some people may never move past that, or may never have the time to move past that, which in and of itself should be a good thing, since it means they may have had a good long time with their loved one. But it's natural. It's not something to be feared, or dreaded. We get older. Shit happens. Our bodies aren't as limber, we suffer ailments we wouldn't have had to worry about when younger, and some of us do experience senility and dementia. Hells, we're lucky if we even find one person in our lives that we truly, no-holds-barred, let all the barriers down, love. Me, I'd rather celebrate what I had, and what I still have, rather than waste what time I do have in mourning. If the gods are kind, I'll still have living family that will need me, and love me. I'll adapt. But your mileage may vary, and that's fine. I don't have any lock on the wisdom of the ages, after all.

Now, sex. Even at this point in my life, and I am far from decrepit, I couldn't see myself chasing young tail. I'm not entirely sure where that's coming from, although it's not all that important. I'm not ageist, mind you. I like younger people, really. I mean, sure, there's visual appeal, but a lot of sexual attraction for me is mental as well. And I'm not talking love, here, just to be clear. I certainly never thought I had to be in love with every one of my lovers. That would be... exhausting, actually. Love is hard work. Sex is fun. I don't mistake one for the other as a general rule.

[Shadowknight12]

On love, yes, we mourn when we lose a loved one. We mourn for ourselves. We're the ones stuck here without them, after all. Some people may never move past that, or may never have the time to move past that, which in and of itself should be a good thing, since it means they may have had a good long time with their loved one. But it's natural. It's not something to be feared, or dreaded. We get older. Shit happens. Our bodies aren't as limber, we suffer ailments we wouldn't have had to worry about when younger, and some of us do experience senility and dementia. Hells, we're lucky if we even find one person in our lives that we truly, no-holds-barred, let all the barriers down, love. Me, I'd rather celebrate what I had, and what I still have, rather than waste what time I do have in mourning. If the gods are kind, I'll still have living family that will need me, and love me. I'll adapt. But your mileage may vary, and that's fine. I don't have any lock on the wisdom of the ages, after all.

Who said anything about love? I never mentioned anything that esoteric. In fact, the closest thing I said was 'care about' and 'get attached' which are so far from love it's impossible to mistake one set of terms for the other. What I said was simple logic. You get attached to someone, they die, you feel bad. It's simple human nature. I continued positing the argument that it's logically unsound to perpetuate a cycle of attachment and downer endings. Then you mentioned the old age example.

I'm not harping on old age, what I'm saying is that mourning isn't necessarily a waste of time. It's a natural process that varies from person to person, and stating "Oh, but X amount of time is too much!" is invalid because it really does vary enormously from any given personality to the next. That's all I'm saying.

Now, sex. Even at this point in my life, and I am far from decrepit, I couldn't see myself chasing young tail. I'm not entirely sure where that's coming from, although it's not all that important. I'm not ageist, mind you. I like younger people, really. I mean, sure, there's visual appeal, but a lot of sexual attraction for me is mental as well. And I'm not talking love, here, just to be clear. I certainly never thought I had to be in love with every one of my lovers. That would be... exhausting, actually. Love is hard work. Sex is fun. I don't mistake one for the other as a general rule.

See my previous point re: "who brought love into this?" I said 'attachment' and 'care' which are words you could also use for friends, pets and family members. I did that on purpose. My point was that the logical path for an elf to take regarding humans is either pure sex with no attachment (one of the very first examples I mentioned) or enter a relationship with a human knowing full well what the outcome will be if he starts caring about her. Which given the amount of half-elves in the world, it's not entirely discouraged, it's just not as logical as choosing a mate that will likely live roughly as much as you will (since the elven population is far greater than its half-elven counterpart, representing here the percentage split between these contrasting philosophies).

[wanderingaddict]

that's assuming everyone has a logical, sensible head on their shoulders, Snight

[Shadowknight12]

that's assuming everyone has a logical, sensible head on their shoulders, Snight

Stupid me.

[wanderingaddict]

I imagine that- just as there's a hearty population of young, starry-eyed teenage human girls loving the idea of an ages old elf tenderly loving them as they age, there are a healthy number of elven girls loving the idea of tenderly loving a human man as he ages

[Shadowknight12]

I imagine that- just as there's a hearty population of young, starry-eyed teenage human girls loving the idea of an ages old elf tenderly loving them as they age, there are a healthy number of elven girls loving the idea of tenderly loving a human man as he ages

Two words for you: daddy issues.

[wanderingaddict]

yes, and elves have them just as often!