Disturbing Cliche Patterns

[Guest DeathPirate]

It's been a while since I saw a good demonic Kyuubi. One that's a vast, sexless, alien entity out for blood the way evil demons should be.

Another thing that annoys me is when authors fuddle about with bloodline limits, either they claim that normal ninja skills like Shikamarus binds are part of his family bloodline or they hand out some kind of eye bloodline to their favourite character...

[Inuzuka]

I think the shadow thing IS a Nara bloodline skill.

...eye skills ARE overrated. Sand-fu, nindogs, and puppetry FTW!

(yes, I'm just trying to CPR the boards...)

[Guest Blayze]

I think it isn't a bloodline skill, just a family speciality. It can't be a bloodline, since it's not IMBA.

[bookworm51485]

I think it isn't a bloodline skill, just a family speciality. It can't be a bloodline, since it's not IMBA.

IMBA?

[redsliver]

Good gravy, I can't read a Naruto fanfic anymore unless someone I trust has recommended it to me with reasons why I'd like it. I see the words High School and I close it. I've become so disillusioned by all the cliche'd shit out there that I don't even particularly enjoy writing them anymore. And the reason I started writing was to try to put together characters that shouldn't go together. I like crack pairs or threes or fours o whatever so long as it isn't what you'd expect I'd read or try to write it. The cliches have killed the fandom for me, I don't think I'll be writing in it again.

[Guest arichang]

Gosh. Everyone's so... mean, is the only word I can think of... when it comes to High School AU's. True, they are cliched and stereotypical... But... so are a lot of fics nowadays. At the moment, Naruto is no longer a young fandom... and there are a lot of fics out there and a lot of authors out there... and completely unique ideas are hard to come by. Particularly because we are all bombarded with stereotypical shit and all young, future potential authors (who are right now in high school) are also bombarded with stereotypical crap... they can't help it. To completely boycott High School AU fics is... not very fair.

Though I don't like them particularly, I have been guilty of enjoying a few of them myself. And more than anything, I think it's because of how stereotypical and cliched it is. It's so predictable... it's funny. The first fic i fell in love with (and it's the one that got me into writing at all) was what I suppose one would call High School AU... though it was in a college setting. Another fic I read was pure High School. And they were both good. Cliched in the sense... that... well... yes. Sasuke and Naruto end up together but only after Sasuke breaks Naruto's heart by going away. but OH! No! he COMES BACK! .... yeah. stereotypical.

but hey. it was an enjoyable read nonetheless.

the general plot was predictable... but the little details and what happens in the story? that's what i liked.

though, admittedly, i prefer canon stories. but... yeah. that's not the point of my argument here.

as for the whole SasuNaru vs NaruSasu argument... there are people out there with different tastes and all that... rather than it being a case of cliched plot or stereotypical blonde.... i think it's a matter of subjective preference. Much like how some people perefer coffee black and others prefer with lots of cream. (HORRIBLE analogy... i know. shut up.)

as long as they don't go too OOC... i don't mind either way.

[Inuzuka]

Yeah. There ARE good AU fics (I've not re-read what I've said so far in this thread, so...eh.), and though there's no suspense or surprise in them...it IS the ride that counts. And...that wasn't a sex analogy. Sexnalogy.

...um. Anyways. I agree. It is unfair to boycott them all, since there're plenty of good ones, and it is a plot that will never die out. However...they really DO need to stay closer to the canon. The livejournal ones that're just SO crap...those need to die.

Nobody move, I lost my points...-.-;;

...your analogy wasn't that bad...

[bookworm51485]

Stories where a character gets raped and moves on like nothing happened and every so often (WAAAAAAY too often), they happen to decide that it was fine and they fall in love with and live happily ever after with their rapist.

I bring this up because of a story I read awhile ago. It was really dumb but I kept reading it to see what crap the author would come up with next. But it quicky got too dumb and I couldn't read it anymore, but I came across it again and it just made me think of that.

[Guest Iku]

I can't really agree with bookworm on that point as it's very hard to write a rape story where they end up in love, or to write a rape situation for a character or characters that already love one another. I know, as I'm trying to - it's even possible that your talking about my fic bookworm, but it happens in the real world, people fall for their captors or rapist/stalker. There is a term for it but I can't remember it.

So I'll defend my fic and hope that it defends any others who have gone down this route. In my case it was Kyuubi taking control of Naruto, but the character he ended up taking advantage of truly loved Naruto and came to terms with what had happened and the demon. I tried to stay in character as much as possible, but we are talking about ninja kids - there's no real definitive guide to putting them into adult and/or sexual situations. Also, the amount of time coming to terms with such an event would probably take would fill chapters that would put people off reading the rest of the fic. I don't think there's a perfect solution to writing a rape story that results in the pair working, I have no idea if I'm close or miles away.

To me, writing is about improving your story telling. I personally hate those fics that are just sex for the sake of it - where there's description on the sex scene but all the rest of it is choppy and awkward dialogue with short descriptions for what got them to the sex in the first place.

[StoryJunkie]

Stockholm Syndrome

The syndrome is named after the Norrmalmstorg robbery of Kreditbanken at Norrmalmstorg, Stockholm, Sweden, in which the bank robbers held bank employees hostage from August 23 to August 28, 1973. In this case, the victims became emotionally attached to their victimizers, and even defended their captors after they were freed from their six-day ordeal. The term was coined by the criminologist and psychiatrist Nils Bejerot, who assisted the police during the robbery, and referred to the syndrome in a news broadcast.

It is sometimes referred to as Helsinki Syndrome; however, this may simply be due to the erroneous naming of the syndrome in popular media, for example by a news reader in the first Die Hard film.

(got this from Wiki) The article goes on to say:

Loyalty to a more powerful abuser — in spite of the danger that this loyalty puts the victim in — is common among victims of domestic abuse, battered partners and child abuse (dependent children). In many instances the victims choose to remain loyal to their abuser, and choose not to leave him or her, even when they are offered a safe placement in foster homes or safe houses. This syndrome was described by psychoanalysts of the object relations theory school (see Fairbairn) as the phenomenon of psychological identification with the more powerful abuser..

There is also an opposite example, where the hostage taker becomes sympathetic to the hostage.

[bookworm51485]

I can't really agree with bookworm on that point as it's very hard to write a rape story where they end up in love, or to write a rape situation for a character or characters that already love one another. I know, as I'm trying to - it's even possible that your talking about my fic bookworm, but it happens in the real world, people fall for their captors or rapist/stalker. There is a term for it but I can't remember it.

So I'll defend my fic and hope that it defends any others who have gone down this route. In my case it was Kyuubi taking control of Naruto, but the character he ended up taking advantage of truly loved Naruto and came to terms with what had happened and the demon. I tried to stay in character as much as possible, but we are talking about ninja kids - there's no real definitive guide to putting them into adult and/or sexual situations. Also, the amount of time coming to terms with such an event would probably take would fill chapters that would put people off reading the rest of the fic. I don't think there's a perfect solution to writing a rape story that results in the pair working, I have no idea if I'm close or miles away.

To me, writing is about improving your story telling. I personally hate those fics that are just sex for the sake of it - where there's description on the sex scene but all the rest of it is choppy and awkward dialogue with short descriptions for what got them to the sex in the first place.

Actually I wasn't talking about your story, I was actually thinking of one specific story at the time, but I have seen it way too often and it's absurd. And I don't mean Stockholm's, I mean the author writing like it's real and true love.

Your story doesn't go along with what I was talking about because your talking about the physical body, but the not the person himself. That's not at all the same thing. I can't remember the name of the story I was talking about, but the main character was raped, quite viciously. And in the end went on to fall madly in love with the man who raped him.

I ask you, how many rape victims do you know of, in real life, that go on to have a healthy and loving relationship with the person who raped them?

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

Here's the thing with cliches: A good many of them are cliche because they're GOOD. Or... were... The problem with the High School fic is that it has SO MUCH potential for character and relationship dynamic exploration that is RARELY ever used. Therefore, they all end up mediocre and bland. I believe another issue there has to do with technically good writers who have little actual imagination. They seem to think all high schools have the same system of heirarchy and social dynamic (i.e. Cheerleaders and Jocks on top, "Brains" on the bottom). Obviously, none of these people live in a city or on the East Coast 'cause, I never went to a school like any of the ones described on TV or in these fics.

And, yeah, I could never imagine Naruto as the "loser." Not really fitting into a specific mold or clique? Sure! But I can also imagine him being the class clown and the fun guy who everyone invites to their house parties unless you figured out a way to realistically create that stigma against him that is present in the show.

As to why Naruto is always this simpering little UKE? Once again, a lack of any real imagination, combined with the inability to keep characters in, you know, character, and a lack of knowledge on how actual homosexual relationships work. I've said this SO many times, and I will say it again: In a healthy relationship, ANY RELATIONSHIP, power is shared. Even in a relationship where there is a dominate and submissive, as long as it is the consceious decision of both partners, power is being shared.

Really, I think the best that we can do is make sure our own work doesn't fall into the mess of overly cliched fics and to leave constructive reviews explaining to the authors

what it is exactly that you found was wrong with the fic.

[Guest CreepingKate]

As to why Naruto is always this simpering little UKE? Once again, a lack of any real imagination, combined with the inability to keep characters in, you know, character, and a lack of knowledge on how actual homosexual relationships work. I've said this SO many times, and I will say it again: In a healthy relationship, ANY RELATIONSHIP, power is shared. Even in a relationship where there is a dominate and submissive, as long as it is the consceious decision of both partners, power is being shared.

I'm a fan of Fullmetal Alchemist and Edward always winds up as the uke - or pregnant - or sexually abused and enjoying it. Usually at the hands of Roy Mustang, but I did find one where Ed where the uke to Armstrong, of all people!

And he's usually powerless in the relationship - as well as underage. Maybe the concept of pedophila doesn't exist in his world.  &nsbp; &nsbp;

[Guest Jojo]

I agree that High School fics should be avoided unless recomended by a trustworthy friend. The only High School fic that I've ever read worth reading was called the Ulitmate Uke Syndrome(I've stoped reading it though 'cause the author is too slow to update). Usually I avoid fics where Naruto is Uke like the plague, but this one was just too funny.

Sasu/Naru in itself has become cliche; you can't go anywhere without that being 90% of the content.

Oh-btw-could anyone tell me how to post a fanfic on this sight?

I'm trying to post a Shika/Gai/Neji story, but don't know how...

[Iggy_lovechild]

Just a general observation: I noticed a long time ago that a majority of yaoi/shounen-ai fanfiction is heavily influenced by the rules set by the genre's mangas and animes. While it may work for the fandoms in the genre, they don't always work when you apply them to other fandoms and characters. Edward Elric an uke? My ass. While I've come to peace with the concepts of top and bottom, I can't stand it when writers try to stick their characters in these little absolutes and narrow boxes.

I wish more same sex writers would bother reasearching a little bit rather than getting all their facts from genre media and fanfiction.

Anyway, just thought I'd offer a couple cents since Naruto may as well be a yaoi anime the way certain character pairings have become so common that they may as well be canon in some people's minds.

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

Just a general observation: I noticed a long time ago that a majority of yaoi/shounen-ai fanfiction is heavily influenced by the rules set by the genre's mangas and animes. While it may work for the fandoms in the genre, they don't always work when you apply them to other fandoms and characters. Edward Elric an uke? My ass. While I've come to peace with the concepts of top and bottom, I can't stand it when writers try to stick their characters in these little absolutes and narrow boxes.

I wish more same sex writers would bother reasearching a little bit rather than getting all their facts from genre media and fanfiction.

Anyway, just thought I'd offer a couple cents since Naruto may as well be a yaoi anime the way certain character pairings have become so common that they may as well be canon in some people's minds.

Here's the thing, in Japan, "top" and "bottom" is determined by age and experience when it comes to media. Size is also factored in. This, however, does not mean that the "bottom" is always going to be a simpering little wimp, or that the "top" is always going to be all stoic and whatnot.

In FMA, both Ed and Roy have their share of emotional issues, though Roy is older and more experenced and skilled when it comes to keeping said issues in check. Ed, however, has several moments of emotional breakage throughout the series. Coupled with his age and size, this would make Ed a bottom. At the same time, Ed is also very strong willed and quite definitly masculine, meaning that even though he's "taking it," he's not going to start crying like a little girl in a really bad teenage drama.

[Iggy_lovechild]

At the same time, Ed is also very strong willed and quite definitly masculine, meaning that even though he's "taking it," he's not going to start crying like a little girl in a really bad teenage drama.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to convey. Due to a lot of shitty fanfiction, I end up associating uke with weepy uke. I know that's not the case or even true definition of the term, it's just...badfics have spoiled me, I suppose.

[Guest Psylocke - NaruSasu Addict]

Just say, the most obvious one is plot. It's like 70-80% of Naruto fic there are about High School [AU] timeline. With Sasuke as the big bad ass and Naruto as the tormented wimpy outcast. They meet, fight, become rivals, then in the end Sasuke saves Naruto's ass. THAT is not what's happening in the anime people. Just because Sasuke's uber sexy, hot, and cold-heartedly mysterious doesn't mean he IS superior to Naruto. And just because of Naruto grew up alone that doesn't mean he's weak with no backbone or wimpy //UKE// and cries all the time. Infact, I can see him support the rest of the ninja in his generation to become stronger. I can't imagine what the series will be like if he grew up in another village.

Which led to the second problem, the pairing. 99.99% of Naruto yaoi fic put Naruto as the ultimate uke which needs to be saved or chased by Sasuke, Gaara, Neji, Itachi, Iruka, Kakashi, heck even Jiraiya. TRUE he WAS the smallest and cutest one and FYI guys, I do NOT have problems at all with YAOI *points at sig* or Naruto becomes the UKE.

first off i'm gonna apologize for the low quality of my post. it's 06.20 am and i'm tired but can't sleep. T_T

I didn't have a problem with SasuNaru fics when I first became a Narutard.

But now I can't take it any longer, can't stand 99% of all the fics with Naruto as the uke! I don't mind it when he's uke and he can actually take it (even writing a fic with a friend of mine where he is Gaara's uke, the link is on my author page) but when he's crying and crying and acts like a little girl.....it's too much. Can't even look at the majority of fanarts any longer either; if i see one more fanart or fanfic that have Naruto or any of the other guys dressed up in pretty dresses and stuttering like Hinata and being, according to other people with no taste, "kawaii", i'm gonna rip someone's head off.

I don't see the need to make someone like Naruto into a whimpy girl that can't do anything himself!!

gaaah i get so mad about this that i just wanna rip my hair off in frustration!! lol...

The same cliche goes when it's the other way around, as well - though luckily not as much!!

In fanart, Seme Naruto is often the uber-tall, muscular one while Uke Sasuke is a small fragile kid... *sigh* I like Naruto being shorter than the rest, why does he have to be taller than the uke??

As for high school fics....some are good, others makes me want to kill myself.

I want to recommend one, though....it has helped me to convert quite a few people into liking yaoi. *grins*

I fell in love with a boy

don't be alarmed by the title, it's not some cheesy little thing!

and while i'm still writing this i might as well ask all of you what the point with mpreg is.....

if you want to write a story when the characters becomes pregnant....why not stick to het?? :/

neways, off to bed to see if i can get some sleep before i have to get up in a few hours..... *dead* X_x

[Guest Gaara]

Yes it's quite bothersome to read fics where Naruto is a spineless little pussy. Pardon my french. All of my Naruto fics have Naruto with a little bit different of the average personality. He actually has a spine. But I definately agree with the theory of 'patterns'. It does get kind of annoying to read the same thing. Over and over again.

[rexcalon]

STOP WITH ALL THE YAOI I MEAN REALLY IS THAT ALL YOU CAN WRITE!!!!!!!!

i love the show i really and i love FanFic but i have stopped reading Naruto Fics because of all the DAMN yaoi i mean a lil yuri or Male/Female pairings are ok just try to branch out PLZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!