I Thought It Was About Equal Rights...

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

In another topic called "Hobbies/Dream Jobs" Nanaea stated that she was a stay at home mom, her life revolving around her children. This, I think is awesome. It is my strict belief that children need at least one parent home with a child for a LEAST the first 5 years. At LEAST. Now, this of course has all kinds of financial junk attatched to it, but if your family can live on a single income, then use that.

It pisses me off when all these little feminists decide that a woman who chooses to raise her kids as aposed to getting a job is a counter feminist.

Even more so, I can't stand when people say that a stay-at-home dad is a dead beat. Why? Because my father stayed home with me and my whenever the financial situation could allow. He wasn't just sitting on his ass people, he was cooking, cleaning, making sure the bills were paid, picking us up from school, making sure we were FED ('cause while my mom rocked at making sure food was in the house, without my father we would have starved to death in a week), and simply did all the same things that house wives of old did. He took care of us.

I remember having a debate about something like this a few months ago. All these girls thought it was great to have a woman stay home and take care of the kids(though most admitted that they themselves couldn't/wouldn't do that for their own sanity) but any husband of theres HAD to have a job. HAD TO. It was so stupid. I wanted to take all of them and beat their heads together. The one who DID agree with me was the one girl who admitted that a man staying with the kids was great if she was the one to get the big money job.

On top of that, I don't truly understand the whole thing about feminists hating it when men open doors for them and the like. As far as I can tell, that part of Chivalry was one of the first forms of feminism in recorded history (Westarn world, any way). It was a way of showing utmost respect for women. It wasn't that they thought women were weak, but that they shouldn't have to do and deal with such things because they, you know, quite literally gave BIRTH to NATIONS. They GOT IT, and it was cool. They thought a woman led a hard enough life as it is and that they should be pampered. It was showing respect in a way that, for the times, was a huge leap in civilization. They were getting out of the old christian views of "Women need to be punished for something one woman may or may not have done THOUSANDS of year ago" spiel. So... why is that a bad thing?

I don't know about you guys, but I thought the feminist movement was suppoesed to be about, you know, equality. Not Female Supremacy.

Now, don't get me wrong. I myself consider myself a feminist and don't think all femanists are like this, but these are the ones most prominant in the media (Interesting ploy there, ain't it?). That, I believe, was done intentionally. It turned the Feminist movement into a total joke.

At the same time, I must also admit that the loudest also tend to be feminazi's.

I dunno, what do you guys think about all this?

[Guest Agaib]

From a man's point of view...

I think women should be given equal opportunities with men. That being said, I don't believe women should receive any extra benefits. When applying for a job really, I think it would be best to leave gender blank all together so the person can judge you on your merits. If a woman's merits aren’t as good as the man's, then the man should get the job. Likewise the other way around.

I'm not going to say that women do get extra benefits as it is. I don't know exactly how it is at the moment.

I do know that ultra feminists have a tendency to not only demand equality, but advantages and supremacy. I have absolutely no doubt that if we gave control of the US to a super feminist then the government suddenly be lead by a matriarch without consideration of male candidates. The idea situation for Me is a merit based system with gender not appearing anywhere in the equation.

I love male Domination, but that's a lifestyle choice for Me and My partner. I understand very well that not every woman would appreciate Domination.

[StoryJunkie]

This is one of those cut diamond subjects, isn't it? No matter the angle, it is mesmerizing.

Last night I was thinking strange thoughts, and finally I concluded that delving into the mysteries of the joining of men and women (whether something comes of it or not) is like joining the two halves of the whole, although, on our own we are whole, and on a societal level, we are whole.

I think that "humanity" is incomplete until man and woman come together somehow. Whether the man is compliant, or the woman, whether they take turns, whatever happens, finding a way to do it is like taking the road of life one step at a time.

So long as you don't go off the beaten path and get lost,...(well, then again, you might find some vista that no one else has yet discovered.)

To those who remain agressively independant, I wonder how realistic it is to take pride in trying to make yourself better than anyone else. It is better to be humble and quiet. Those you step on on the way up the ladder are the same ones who will help you on the way down. If there's one thing I know about life: it has a breath-taking array of valleys and mountains.

[Guest Agaib]

I hope you're not refering to My Dominant tendancies as trying to make Myself better than everyone else. And if you're not, thank you very much.

Somtimes I think that people convince themselves that a person that tries to be Dominant is just trying to prove Himself the best. This could possibly be true for some people that claim to be Dominants, but I refuse to accept them as such. A true dominant is about a partnership. One side is not "better" than the other. Just like there's more than one job in the world, but that doesn't make one better than the rest. A D/s relationship is really about the partners picking an unorthodox set of jobs for the relationship.

If you were just refering to feminazis trying to establish dominance in a political way then I agree completely. There's no point in saying one sex is better or worse than the other. The fact of the matter is, men will often need women and women will often need men (even if they refuse to admit it). The only exception I can think of is perhaps homosexual relationships, but I see those as, natures form of healthy birthcontrol. Homosexual couples I think can be quite healthy to a world full of over population and kids in need of parents.

[/preachyness]

[StoryJunkie]

no, i meant femnazis, lol. I EXPECT guys to be *ahem* or have dominant traits. However, some girls are pretty aggressive. Nothing would happen in this world if the fire didn't burn under some peoples' feet.

[foeofthelance]

I'm going to have to ask what you mean on the dominant traits. Being a guy myself, I don't see myself going out and seeking to lead/control. Granted, it seems to find me and I have no problem when it does. So is that what you mean?

As for whether or not chivalry can exist with modern feminsm, sort of yes, and sort of no. It depends on how adaptable the guy is. Case in point: I was always raised that the guy pays for everything. Not out of duty or what not, but out of privilege. Then my girl friend tells me that my paying for everything makes her feel useless. So now we split the bills, cause what else am I to do? Is that chivalry, or is that modern feminism, or is it both?

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

As for whether or not chivalry can exist with modern feminsm, sort of yes, and sort of no. It depends on how adaptable the guy is. Case in point: I was always raised that the guy pays for everything. Not out of duty or what not, but out of privilege. Then my girl friend tells me that my paying for everything makes her feel useless. So now we split the bills, cause what else am I to do? Is that chivalry, or is that modern feminism, or is it both?

The part about women in the codes of chivalry pertained to respect. Way back when, that was the way to do it. Today, it's not dumbing a girl because she has a higher paying job then you. Same concept, differant ways of doing it. That you and your girlfriend split the bills because she wanted to shows a respect for her. If you were a total dick you could easily have pulled a "Well I'm wearing the pants so shutup" which I HAVE heard come from a guy.

And really, that whole "The guy pays" deal came from a time when women were not allowed to hold property, much less money, so if she wanted to be well supported and not out on the street, she had to make sure to find a man with cash. The best way to tell if a man not only had money but was generous and really wanted you was to see how much money he dished out on you.(In hindsight, this is likely where a lot of the superficiallity comes from on both sides.)

[Guest Agaib]

I think if one's major issue in a relationship is who pays for dinner, they one has deeper problems to work out.

On a relationship level, for success one has to come to a sort of agreement on how much control each side gets. If one is completely at odds about the situation with his or her partner, then maybe the relationship wasn't mean to be.

I've already explained My position on a political level.

[StoryJunkie]

Hm. By dominant traits, I guess I mean, taller, stronger faster. The physical ones that are obvious. However, (disclaimer here), my daughter is 5'11", and can get out-manoeuvered by her girlfriend who is 5' nothing and works as a plumber. (I think she's an anomoly). I asked her boss how she managed that commercial tank change-out. (these tanks would be difficult for a regular guy to lift, considering the lime deposits). The boss man isn't exactly a heavy-set guy either. He's pretty spare in build, but the two of them managed to take that tank down a couple flights of stairs. (90 gal tanks weigh probably 500 lbs min) They did fine. He had nothing but praise for her. He'd been her baseball coach when she was in school, and noticed that for her size, her strength was astonishing, even compared to the guys on her team.

I personally would not let someone take out a tank like that without more than 2 people. Just the WCB alone makes me shudder. A worker could loose 3 month's work if they hurt their back, and the employer would be liable.

As for other men/women issues like paying for stuff, it's not only "white-man" society where this occurs. A lot of native cultures were very careful to segregate the sexes. The woman always walked behind the man when they walked through the bush. Not beside, and not infront. Some of this was for safety reasons, I'm sure, but it also was a domineering trait in their society, and quite frankly, in all societies you can find this attitude.

[Guest Soulsearcher]

WEEEEEEEEEE!! I love wading into topics like this.

{cracks knuckles}

I'm what you would probably call a new age traditionalist. I have certain things I feel need to be in place, but the roles can be held by either person in the relationship.

I feel a woman should absolutely be courted by the guy. Now, that doesn't mean he has to pay or has to be the one to first ask her out or anything like that. BUT I do expect certain niceties from the guy. And that has more to do with women's personalities. We are emotional creatures. It's only to your benefit to flatter us and do sweet things. Guarantee that'll get you close to our hearts faster than anything. BUT, do not try to stifle our independant spirit in the process. There's a REASON you like us, something that attracts you to us... besides our breasts. This goes for anyone attracted to women or honestly in male homosexual relationships as well. There has to be a healthy dose of respect for both partners.

As to the feminazi's, I thoroughly believe they are in denial, or have had something happen in their past that makes them dislike men and their role in the grand scheme of things. Men have a role to play, just as women do.

Those roles don't mean men can't be the caretakers and women can't be the president. What it does mean is we need to let ourselves emotionally inhabit the roles laid out for us just by being on this Earth. The conventions and technology we have actually fight against the natural order of things.

Absolutely, women are just as capable as men. But we also must be wary of reverse discrimination. By giving something to a woman just because she's a woman we are actually hurting the cause for equality.

People are so conscerned with the "roles" of the sexes in the workplace and the home. We need to be more concerned with the "role" of the sexes emotionally. Men need certain things emotionally to be happy. So do women. We need to be more concerned with that and get our heads out of our asses about forcing equality on people. Unfortunately, there are a lot of biased people out there who can't get their heads around the thought that you should base things on the individual and what they're capable on, not the color of the skin or if they have a certain body part. Because of those people we have laws and rules that are supposed to equalize things, but in fact merely precipitate reverse discrimination.

It's very frustrating and as with many things in today's society, there is no easy answer because we are human and are therefor imperfect. Human nature can be a wonderfully beautiful thing, or it can be a pain in the ass.

And that's my nice long rambling 2 cents.

[Guest suzanne_2006]

I grew up during the feminist movement. I always

thought that whatever a woman was happiest doing,

she should do it. The whole idea of feminism is

just doing what you like,but liking what you do, and

not allowing society to dictate.

Just my 2 cents!

[EveKnight75]

What I'm wondering is when the men's rights movement is going to occur.

Let's stick to North American society for now. In general, women have gained equal rights. It doesn't matter whether they're housewives or career women, whether they're aggressive or nurturing, they're all generally accepted by society.

But the same can't be said for men. If a man is meticulous about his appearance, nurturing, and enjoys hanging out with kids, he's likely to be considered gay or put under scrutiny. Why?

It's more serious than that. They can be disadvantaged in certain legal areas. In most cases, the mother gets prime custody of the children after a divorce no matter how qualified the father is. Men usually lose cases where they claim to be abused by their wives, or have admitted to being raped by a woman (and yes, it is possible).

It doesn't sit right with me.

We've established a society where a woman can be any way she wants to be and it's considered acceptable. When the same applies to a man within the same society, then and only then can we have an equal society. What we really need to do is destroy the concept of gender roles altogether and just accept people as they are without assumption, whether it's a stay-at-home single dad or a career-driven woman who's impatient with children.

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

What I'm wondering is when the men's rights movement is going to occur.

Let's stick to North American society for now. In general, women have gained equal rights. It doesn't matter whether they're housewives or career women, whether they're aggressive or nurturing, they're all generally accepted by society.

But the same can't be said for men. If a man is meticulous about his appearance, nurturing, and enjoys hanging out with kids, he's likely to be considered gay or put under scrutiny. Why?

It's more serious than that. They can be disadvantaged in certain legal areas. In most cases, the mother gets prime custody of the children after a divorce no matter how qualified the father is. Men usually lose cases where they claim to be abused by their wives, or have admitted to being raped by a woman (and yes, it is possible).

It doesn't sit right with me.

We've established a society where a woman can be any way she wants to be and it's considered acceptable. When the same applies to a man within the same society, then and only then can we have an equal society. What we really need to do is destroy the concept of gender roles altogether and just accept people as they are without assumption, whether it's a stay-at-home single dad or a career-driven woman who's impatient with children.

EXACTLY!

To quote myself:

Even more so, I can't stand when people say that a stay-at-home dad is a dead beat. Why? Because my father stayed home with me and my whenever the financial situation could allow. He wasn't just sitting on his ass people, he was cooking, cleaning, making sure the bills were paid, picking us up from school, making sure we were FED ('cause while my mom rocked at making sure food was in the house, without my father we would have starved to death in a week), and simply did all the same things that house wives of old did. He took care of us.

I remember having a debate about something like this a few months ago. All these girls thought it was great to have a woman stay home and take care of the kids(though most admitted that they themselves couldn't/wouldn't do that for their own sanity) but any husband of theres HAD to have a job. HAD TO. It was so stupid. I wanted to take all of them and beat their heads together. The one who DID agree with me was the one girl who admitted that a man staying with the kids was great if she was the one to get the big money job.

Also, I remember being in a forum discussion where there was a big debate as to whether or not a man could be raped by a woman. You wouldn't believe the amount of asshats that said "he had to want it" and yadda yadda ya.

HELLO! If you do something the penis likes, whether the owner of said penis wants you to, it WILL become erect unless the owner has an EXTREME amount of control over his body.... or has erectile dysfunction. He doesn't need to want jack squat.

[Iggy_lovechild]

Wow, cool. Another person who believes that femenism is vaguely evil.

My personal opinion is a little bit...odd. While I'm physically female, I've always felt more masculine than femenine. I've had gender rule issues since I was in high school. I get so sick of talk of empowerment of certain genders cos I find it all terribly meaningless. Everyone should just suck it up and do whatever the hell they feel is right for themselves and society needs to stop dividing the worlds into tits, pussies, and cocks.

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

From one androg to another, rock on.

Oh, and I'm desperatly in love with your icon <3

[Iggy_lovechild]

Yay! Not alone!

(thanks, I love my icon too. )