Glowing reviews for very bad fiction?

[Melsiebug]

I would love for my reviewers to give me a bit more in the way of concrit, I even tried gently suggesting it in an A/N but to no avail. Oh well. I can see some people would be put off doing it in case the writer took offence, as I assume some have, but theirs a world of diffrence between a "this bit of the plot doesn't make sense/why did so and so act so occ" type comments and outright flames.

Personaly on many occasions I've been very tempted to post a review along the lines of "For the love god either work out how a spell checker works or get yourself a beta!" (I would really put something a little less blunt, but you get the idea), but I don't want to upset anyone so maybe I'm just as guilty.

[FairySlayer]

What I often find discouraging is the simple and plotless lemons (which I call "Dick in Jane stories") getting many comments, yet little or none of them are critique. (Usually there are a lot of, "I want to see...!")

But people enjoy writing them and there's a big demand for it. It makes me a little jealous, but it also makes me truly appreciate when people leave any comments on my stories, even it's to say they don't like the story (non-flame) because at least they gave it a chance.

I only comment on stories if there is enough to like about them, at least a thread of good storytelling. Like Alor.Sky, I point out the good stuff along with what needs improvement. I use the old "sandwich" method: nestle the criticism between two positive sets of comments (likes on top and encouragement on the bottom), though I may start or end with a qualifier too.

If I give an author detailed con-crit and solutions and they don't heed my advice in their following stories then I won't comment on the new stories, even if I enjoy them.

I admit I probably overdo the praise sometimes, but I do try to keep an eye on myself. I'm also more likely to seek out stories by people who've commented on mine, and no matter how hard I try to be objective I'm sure there's an unconscious bias there.

One thing that may have a small impact on the higher ratings is that the default value in the pull-down is the highest. Even when a story deserves less, I feel a tinge of guilt pulling the rating to a lower level. It sounds stupid, yes, but it's real.

[DemonGoddess]

Me being the way I am, which is very, very blunt; there are damn good reasons why if I don't leave a review, it's because I can't find a polite way to do so. You know, leaving concrit doesn't mean one has to be rude or harsh, although I'm sure I've come across that way in past where I have left concrit, because I AM so damn blunt.

[Shadowknight12]

When I review, I try to make a point of saying at least one good thing the author has done right and at least one bad thing the author could improve on. Once that's done, I write my general impressions and let my judgment tell me if I need to add more praise or point out more stuff that could be fixed. Above all, I try to be fair and polite, because I've come across as a troll/flamer before, since I have a hard time "cushioning" criticism. If I think a character is a dick, I'll tell you he's a dick. If I think that the sex scene lacked realism, that's what you'll be hearing from me. But lately I've been trying to sound more humane. It's a selfish thing, really, because if the author is offended by my review, they'll disregard it, making me waste the time I spent writing the review in the first place.

When I receive reviews, I am oh so very wary of praise. It's not that I don't like it (on the contrary!), I just don't fully believe it. When I see someone saying "Oh, you're such a great writer!" or "This story is awesome!" I just narrow my eyes and go "...okay. Thank you!" and wonder if they really meant it. Of course, longer reviews like the kind I write are actually heavenly, because I can get a better idea of what the reader actually thinks. Those are the reviews that make me keep on writing.

But on a broader scope, I think that you can't improve without criticism. A single review that points out your flaws is much, much better than 100 reviews that praise how awesome you are. If you can have both, great, if not, tough shit, life ain't perfect. I do think that people should give more feedback, of ANY kind, but that's probably what 99% of all authors around here believe.

[jeeezits]

The one time I wrote a review for someone who seemed promising, but substituted a thesaurus for imagination, the author deleted my review and added comments to her/his profile that only served to further my point. I'm not going to bother writing reviews here anymore. Honestly, you should make it impossible for authors to remove reviews except by request. If the review is objectively bad/poorly written/out of place/spam, then the mods can remove it. If it's just something the author doesn't want to hear, tough shit. That would take a lot of time and effort though, and I'm not sure anybody would want to deal with the hassle. I sure wouldn't and wouldn't blame you for not wanting to either.

As far as my writing goes, the only thing I care about is viewers. We're not writing great works of literature here, audience is really the only thing that matters, and the more I see the more I know people are reading and enjoying my work. Seeing that 7000+ people have read one of my stories (if you guys use unique IPs for stats) makes me happy, even if only 19 of them have bothered to take the time to even rate it (lazy fuckers).

[Danyealle]

Honestly, you should make it impossible for authors to remove reviews except by request. If the review is objectively bad/poorly written/out of place/spam, then the mods can remove it.

That is not happening. There is only one being that is able to do that, the head admin. Since she has more than enough on her plate and the rest of the mods are so backlogged with what needs done on a regular basis with not enough bodies to go around it's not feasible to even attempt it. Since removing reviews is a standard on most big sites (even ff.net is promising it) there would be a backlash to kingdom come if we did it.

[DemonGoddess]

I see no reason to make it so that authors are unable to control their content, including the reviews they keep, or don't keep.

When it comes to flames, spam or troll reviews, I hope the users report those. Often, they do. In that for instance, yes, they SHOULD leave the review in place. That gives me a place to work from regarding that.

As far as spamming review boards themselves, that was a real problem for many years. This is exactly why users are now required to "prove they're human" with recaptcha. I know that people who went through that here for years, would really rather not find they have 300 reviews all saying the same thing which overloads their review board, and is a spam message.

[RogueMudblood]

...even if only 19 of them have bothered to take the time to even rate it (lazy fuckers).

Can I just say that attitude is a contributing factor to the mentality that readers have that they don't want to review?

Now, as far as people removing reviews, I've left concrit for authors trying to help them write better which was deleted as soon as they read it. My opinion on that is if they want to write poorly, there's nothing I can do about it. I said my piece, they didn't listen, not my problem. I just don't read their stuff anymore.

As for glowing reviews for bad fiction (which is what the started the post), did anyone go to read the fiction of the people who left the reviews? Honestly, some people think that anything is well written. Then other people (Megan Consoer - and she appears to have clones now) insist on leaving an "I like your story, update soon" on everything.

I know it can be frustrating to spend time doing something and not get any good response (or any response) when you finally put it out there for review, but there are published authors who have that problem too.

I remember some of the books they had on the reading list in high school over a decade ago and I honestly thought "You know, this book sucks. I could read this book which has similar themes and is much better written." But the teachers would always respond with, "Do you have a religious exception to reading this material?" And that was the only thing that would get you out of it. (Like the military.)

Have you ever seen the movie "The American President" ? There's a line in that movie that fits:

"People don't drink from the sand because they're thirsty. They drink the sand because they don't know the difference."

[jeeezits]

I see no reason to make it so that authors are unable to control their content, including the reviews they keep, or don't keep.

Except the reviews aren't their content. It's the reviewer's. It's akin to a movie studio asking a newspaper to fire a person who gave their movie a bad review. However, I realize it would be ludicrous to try and implement that sort of mod-only review removal, the site is too big. I was merely putting that forward as the only way I'd bother with giving reviews: if I knew they'd actually matter.

Can I just say that attitude is a contributing factor to the mentality that readers have that they don't want to review?

You misunderstand, I'm not even talking about reviews, I'm talking about the 1-5 rating drop down menu that takes half a second. Seriously, it's lazy.

Now, as far as people removing reviews, I've left concrit for authors trying to help them write better which was deleted as soon as they read it. My opinion on that is if they want to write poorly, there's nothing I can do about it. I said my piece, they didn't listen, not my problem. I just don't read their stuff anymore.

Agreed. I laughed at the response and went back to my writing.

As for glowing reviews for bad fiction (which is what the started the post), did anyone go to read the fiction of the people who left the reviews? Honestly, some people think that anything is well written. Then other people (Megan Consoer - and she appears to have clones now) insist on leaving an "I like your story, update soon" on everything.

I know it can be frustrating to spend time doing something and not get any good response (or any response) when you finally put it out there for review, but there are published authors who have that problem too.

Hits are my response. If people have read it, then I'm happy. I'd be happier with reviews and ratings, but beggars can't be choosers.

[DemonGoddess]

Except the reviews aren't their content. It's the reviewer's. It's akin to a movie studio asking a newspaper to fire a person who gave their movie a bad review. However, I realize it would be ludicrous to try and implement that sort of mod-only review removal, the site is too big. I was merely putting that forward as the only way I'd bother with giving reviews: if I knew they'd actually matter

In that point I disagree. Reviews belong to the story they are attached TO. Which is why they technically then belong to the AUTHOR. Only two people can remove them from the board, in the software. The person who left the review, and the person who's story it's attached to. For ME to remove a review, means I go in to the table, find it, and then delete it.

I do agree on the laziness, though. When one considers that recently someone told me they'd leave more reviews if they "didn't have to prove they were human", but don't want to be bothered to have to fill in a recaptcha form. When I actually have time to read (which is very rare these days), even IF I don't leave a review, I always rate the story.

[pittwitch]

If I don't know the author, but the story seems promising, I read the reviews first. If it is a litany of "OMG - I love this fic!" I usually skip it. Why? Because of the original topic, glowing reviews for bad fiction.

Now, if someone reviews thoughtfully, or I know the reviewer, I give their review more credence than the, "Please write more reviews."

I know it's snobby. Yet, how many of us have read the reviews and thought this is going to be a great story, only to read a few (if we're lucky) paragraphs, then want to a) gouge our eyes out, B) gouge the author's eyes out, or c) kick the crap out of the reviewers? C'mon now, be honest!

Some readers really aren't creative in their reviews. I have one who writes nearly the same thing every time. It doesn't really matter to me, because I know it's her "style." I think Megan is the same. In their own way, they are trying to be encouraging.

Seriously though, all those glowing reviews for horrid stories ... well, there's no accounting for some people's tastes.

Addendum: Oh, yeah, and I've given up on reviews and ask for readers just to clicky on the rate button. Some people just don't know what to say without sounding like squealing fan girls. I get lots of ratings now.

[JayDee]

I don't think glowing reviews are harmful for poor quality writers. I think they can provide the necessary confidence boost and motivation needed to keep someone writing and perhaps improve by doing. I realise some people out there are seeking some sort of publication or financial reward for writing, but surely there's a lot of us just doing it for fun? Some of us writers will simply not improve no matter how much effort we put in, criticism listened too and so forth, but it's a fine little hobby.

[Shadowknight12]

I can sympathise with both sides of the issue, but I honestly think this works the way it is right now. I mean, not allowing people to remove their reviews (unless it's spam/flame), is really the exact same thing as a writer deleting a review they don't like. Reviewers and writers need to get a thicker skin and just play the hand they've been dealt. If your story wasn't that awesome, you grit your teeth and work on improving. If someone deleted your review, you stop reviewing that author, period. Getting upset and playing the martyr in either case is just immature. And hypocritical, too, in the case of the reviewer.

I think it all boils down to unappreciated effort. The writer puts effort into the story and they get upset when it's not appreciated. The reviewer puts thought and effort into his review, and as we can plainly see, gets upset when it's not appreciated. We can all empathise with that. The reviewer simply needs to keep on reviewing, making a mental note to stop reviewing the ungrateful fuckers, but without taking the martyr stance and saying "oh I don't care about reviews anymore! I don't leave reviews because nobody appreciates my genius concrit!" --> See any parallels with writers?

If we, as writers, want to get more and better reviews, we need to start GIVING more and better reviews. I know we don't always have the time to read a story and then review it properly, but we all should do our part to foster the environment we want. Otherwise, you're basically asking to get something without doing anything in return.

[jeeezits]

In that point I disagree. Reviews belong to the story they are attached TO. Which is why they technically then belong to the AUTHOR. Only two people can remove them from the board, in the software. The person who left the review, and the person who's story it's attached to. For ME to remove a review, means I go in to the table, find it, and then delete it.

As it stands from a technical aspect of the site, yes. If I then post the same review on my profile, is this still true? No. It's my review. I wrote it. If the author doesn't like it, too bad. For the third time, I understand the issues that would be involved in doing this. It would be a pain in the ass and probably require different software and a buttload of moderators to investigate every whine, I mean, complaint. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. However, that isn't my point. From a reviewer's perspective the system is worthless.

I can sympathise with both sides of the issue, but I honestly think this works the way it is right now. I mean, not allowing people to remove their reviews (unless it's spam/flame), is really the exact same thing as a writer deleting a review they don't like. Reviewers and writers need to get a thicker skin and just play the hand they've been dealt. If your story wasn't that awesome, you grit your teeth and work on improving. If someone deleted your review, you stop reviewing that author, period. Getting upset and playing the martyr in either case is just immature(project much? I thought it was hilarious, not aggravating). And hypocritical, too, in the case of the reviewer.

It's not even remotely the same. A writer removing a review he/she doesn't like is like Cartman shouting "screw you gahs, I'm going home" as a debate tactic. As it stands now, "If your story wasn't that awesome, you grit your teeth and work on improving" in reality means "remove the review and cry about meanies in your profile". Hypocritical? Hardly. There's no point in writing reviews if they can be arbitrarily removed by the author. Imagine if you read the reviews and instead of nothing but "omg i lik YxZ" there were actual reviews. As in, "adverbs are not a substitute for description", or "What are you showing in X; you need to describe it better", or even "this is very poorly written with bad spelling and horrible punctuation". Except most of the authors that receive these kinds of reviews immediately delete them. The system doesn't work.

As far as finding out if a story is good to me, I take the unimaginable task of actually reading it. Usually takes less than a few seconds to find out if the egg is rotten.

[Shadowknight12]

Well, that's your point of view and you're entitled to it. I'd just like to say that I can easily flip around a few words in that paragraph and you get the exact same reasoning writers would use to complain about unfair reviewers. You may dislike being told this, but the truth is that you're behaving just like them. If you truly had found it hilarious and moved on, you would not be this defensive, nor would you have a beef with the system. The system works because it's fair to all involved. What you seem to fail to understand is that there is no obligation for the writer to improve. If he or she chooses to remain stagnant and remove any reviews that dare to suggest that they're less than perfect, then the system supports their self-delusion. If you really weren't hurt by the writer's rejection of your criticism, you'd just shrug and move on, which was exactly what I suggested. Instead, you're here, decrying that the system doesn't work.

[FairySlayer]

I admit that seeing a large number of reviews for a story will make me more inclined to read it, but I never read the reviews first because I hate spoilers. (I don't even want to see commercials or "in the next episode" segments for shows.) Usually I can tell within the first few paragraphs whether or not the story is worth reading (to me).

Relying on my pragmatic instincts, I agree that it's easier on everyone's nerves if the author can remove reviews for whatever reason. If all spamming, trolling and downright thoughtlessness had to be reported then it would just be more of a hassle and eat up a bigger chunk of the moderators' time; in the process that would end up feeding the trolls.

Now, perhaps authors would be less likely to remove critical reviews if they knew that there is a way to reply to them, even if it is a bit clunky. DemonGoddess061 has been promoting it strongly, and we should help get the word out too: My "about" section on The Archive has a link to the appropriate open (no registration required) sub-forum, and for my latest stories I pre-created threads and put the links to them at the top of each story's first chapter.

(At least my appreciation and answers are out there even if no one replies to my replies to their reviews. )

Yes though, when I pour time and effort into writing (and polishing) a review it truly miffs me when it's dismissed, whether it's deleted or the critical advice is ignored. When that happens I simply don't leave reviews for that writer again (and probably won't read any more of his or her stories). On the bright side, once in a while I'll criticize some practice and then realize I'm guilty of the same thing too, so that's something. (At least telling myself that makes me feel better. )

I've seen this more than I care to have seen in my lifetime as a writer. Personally, even if I like the setting, the pairing, even if everything all kind of lines up perfectly.. I still critique it. I point out what I felt the story's weakest points were. That's just me, of course.

For the most part, however, I generally disregard glowing, positive reviews for a bad story as the person's closest friends, group members or even themselves. For all the critique a bad story deserves, equal praise should be offered simply for the effort and bravery of putting their story in the line of fire, so to speak.

You're my kind of guy.

...

I know it can be frustrating to spend time doing something and not get any good response (or any response) when you finally put it out there for review, but there are published authors who have that problem too.

...

Honestly, sometimes I'd be happy to get comments on the level of "I read the whole thing because it managed to keep my interest. I guess I kind'a liked it." I wonder if my own wordiness intimidates folks who just want to leave simple thanks or encouragement. (Oh, and if someone already knows how analytical I can be when reviewing artwork and stories...)

By the way, I'm extremely proud of two negative (yet thoughtful) reviews I've received. It definitely helps, and in many ways.

Ratings (of any value) are very uplifting for me too, if anyone is interested to know.

[DemonGoddess]

Jeeezits-

Here's the thing.

If you dislike the site so damn much, why the HELL are you here? You choose not to listen to or consider what any one person has had to say in this entire topic. The only opinion that seems to matter to you, is yours. You just want to argue with people.

Go do that elsewhere.

[Shadowknight12]

Now, perhaps authors would be less likely to remove critical reviews if they knew that there is a way to reply to them, even if it is a bit clunky. DemonGoddess061 has been promoting it strongly, and we should help get the word out too: My "about" section on The Archive has a link to the appropriate open (no registration required) sub-forum, and for my latest stories I pre-created threads and put the links to them at the top of each story's first chapter.

(At least my appreciation and answers are out there even if no one replies to my replies to their reviews. )

Can I just say that this is a great idea? I think this sort of thing should be widely encouraged in a FAQ somewhere.

[JoeHundredaire]

Considering most sites don't allow you to delete reviews that you don't like - FanFiction.Net being the notable exception and then only in the case of reviews left by cowards who opt not to log in before flaming - I don't see why turning off an author's ability to delete reviews would be such a horrible thing. What's the worst that would happen? People would be forced to grow up and act like adults and face criticism for the shit they're polluting the site with instead of being able to go "Well, if I delete the ten people who say my story sucks, I must have a quality piece of literature on my hands."? And there's nothing saying moderators would be given extra work or anything. I'm the most senior moderator at Twisting the Hellmouth, and we remove (on average) about a dozen reviews a month. 75%+ of those are accidental double posts from the site burping. That's out of 7,000-9,000 reviews per month.

Hell, Jennie, you got what... three separate whiny bastards complaining because I called them out on their "I'll rape the hell out of a chick until she loves me" fics? If your policy was "If you wanna post here, you have to deal with both praise and criticism", that would have been a good two hours of your life back.

Edited November 7, 2010 by JoeHundredaire

[DemonGoddess]

Thing is, as I said before, I'm not interested in anything being added to my workload at the moment. Coding changes add to my work load. It's already tremendous.

[JoeHundredaire]

Thing is, as I said before, I'm not interested in anything being added to my workload at the moment. Coding changes add to my work load. It's already tremendous.

There's no "find this piece of code, change 1 to 0 disables delete button" option? I know Storyline originally had it as an option in configuration because TtH has never had deletion while other Storyline sites did.

[Danyealle]

There's no "find this piece of code, change 1 to 0 disables delete button" option? I know Storyline originally had it as an option in configuration because TtH has never had deletion while other Storyline sites did.

It's not just finding the code that is the issue. It's the deluge of reports that would follow. We are already swamped at this juncture of things without enough bodies to go around and do the work. Off the top of my head, DG would have to start with the moderators review boards since we get hammered with reviews that have nothing at all to do with our stories but with issues we left reviews about as part of our job. Since she's the only one that can go in and delete reviews, it's her that would get swamped. She has enough to do as it is, she doesn't need this all added on top of everything else.

[JoeHundredaire]

It's not just finding the code that is the issue. It's the deluge of reports that would follow. We are already swamped at this juncture of things without enough bodies to go around and do the work. Off the top of my head, DG would have to start with the moderators review boards since we get hammered with reviews that have nothing at all to do with our stories but with issues we left reviews about as part of our job. Since she's the only one that can go in and delete reviews, it's her that would get swamped. She has enough to do as it is, she doesn't need this all added on top of everything else.

You must have missed the "make people act like adults" part of my post to you all. That's the difference between this site and TtH. You people are WILLING to tolerate that kind of behavior. We're not. That's why we, on average, remove 3-4 flames per month. Authors either grow up or don't post shitty fics; either way we all win. And surprisingly enough, the only authors we've had leave our site? A few who went on to publish works and wanted their stuff gone for legal reasons, a handful of bannings of AUTHORS for abusive behavior to REVIEWERS, and two who were recently removed by their own request after we confronted them with evidence that they were attempting to cheat on the annual site awards.

Oh, and one author who stomped off the site after we stripped one of his stories of an award back in '08 because he had misrepresented it and allowed it to slip into voting in a category it wasn't eligible to win an award in.

Danyealle, I would think that you of all people would support such a thing. Weren't you the one complaining about shitty fics with glowing reviews? How do you think that happens? It's because you let people remove anything that offends them. So when you delete 80 bad reviews out of the 100 a story has, you're left with a story that has 20 glowing reviews and seems like a good fic on the surface... and then you click that link and your eyes bleed.

[DemonGoddess]

I don't even even know where to start looking for that particular bit of code, honestly. I'm sure I could find it, but it'd take time. On top of that, there are enough changes in the scripting from the original Storyline, that it's hard saying which file this even LIVES in any more, if it even exists as a line of code. Without going through it all, I couldn't say.

As to not getting in touch except via the review board, I honestly think that's a bit of laziness. Think about it. There's a contact page. There are NUMEROUS email addresses published to that contact page. If/when someone has an issue, they have any NUMBER of ways to get in touch with any moderator, me, or Apollo. We're none of us hard to find. For that matter, for me personally, I have so much contact information in my archive profile, it's not even funny. So, someone saying they can't contact me or any other mod except via a review in a review board is pure bullshit.

The point is, every site has its own way of review handling. What works at Tth or FFN, or Mediaminer, won't necessarily work here.

Again, without doing some reworking, of a rather massive variety it looks like; the reviewing system is going to stay as it is. I don't have the time to mess with it right now.

Now, what would be workable in future, as an option, possibly, is leaving it to where the reviewer can delete his or review, a mod can delete any review if the need comes up for it. After all, there is a report button on the reviews too. So if there was a questionable review, a user simply has to click that button, and we look. That's really not so hard to do.

Once again, this is something that I'm seriously doubtful will happen any time soon. There ain't 100 hours in a day, and 15 days in a week.

[JoeHundredaire]

Just wait till I win the lottery, Jennie. First thing I'm doing is buying a few hours of your time so I can get you to find and change that code.