Predictable M/M Original Plot Lines

[Guest Marssel]

I mostly read original slash and it doesn't take a genius to notice that, despite the different situations/surroundings/etc... all the romance plots in my favourite stories are like, the same. I'm not sure if this is a complaint or not. After all, it would be hypocritical of me as my own stories follow this pattern.

But a RIDICULOUS number of M/M stories follow this structure: introduce character X who meets (and probably doesn't get on with) character Y. Character X avoids or is persued by Character Y and in the meatime has a best friend, Character Z, who is woeful and lonely. Then as Character X and Y are finally getting somewhere, Character P jumps in, who fiercely fancies Character X and, while Character Y is busy getting extremely jealous, Character X rejects Character P who suddenly meets Character Z (the best friend) and.. well, you know the rest. Happy ending.

Now, I've read some brilliant stories who make this work. But is there really no other romance pattern? It's not really Original fiction; it's more, take that person's story structure and give it a few different situations. I can't talk. Mine are the same. Oh whatever. ^.^

[SereneLies]

Okay, well I am going to start off by saying that I haven't read any original m/m but some of the Yaoi/slash fiction I've seen in the fandoms I read are good. It depends on your taste really.

I like to read a variety of stories that range from your happy endings to the intense BDSM to a tragic love not really meant to work out. It really depends on where you look ^.^

[Guest Alora.Sky]

I feel that there is a lot of cliché in original slash, as there is in any story genre. I guess it depends on your kink. I like the plot you outlined, but it's not something I generally enjoy all the time. It depends on how it was written. At the same time, I like looking for a more inventive romance.

There is always the, A meets B, they hate each other, things happen, they fall in love, the end.

Or if you want angst: A meets B, they hate each other, things happen, B dies, A then realizes he/she loved B, and the end. (laughs)

I like this topic. I was wondering if anyone else knows of a certain cliché in the OG genre, and how would you step out of the norm?

[Shadowknight12]

I'm all for stepping out of the norm. Sadly, my current plans to remain fresh and original seem to be backfiring. What I did was to throw a bunch of guys together, each with its own personality, and then see what happens. I tried to stay true to real life as much as possible, so that the readers couldn't tell who'd end up with who. Not to mention the fact that these people are so screwed up I'm kinda toying with the prospect of just killing them all to spare them even more failure in their awful, awful lives. But what I have in mind is far worse than death, so I'll probably go with that.

Anyway, back on topic: I think more authors should focus on crafting compelling characters, coming up with a situation that brings them together (and ideally, keeps them that way long enough for the story to unravel) and then just sit back and let things happen. Of course, this doesn't imply a large number of characters, it can be done with just one person, really (and their imagination, I presume).

And as a corollary, more authors should try to avoid clichés. Some of them are fine, especially if used in moderation, but an entire story built on clichés is like a house built entirely out of plaster.

[Asexual Biped]

I have to disagree with your basic plot line for most slash fiction. Well, the friend and random pursuing character parts, anyway.

The idea of Character X and Character Y meeting is pretty consistent with most, if not ALL, romance stories, even those published. So, that part is almost a moot point.

I do agree that most often you see a friend character, but it usually ends up with the friend being close to Character X, the view being misinterpreted by Character Y, drama ensues, sex happens, the misunderstanding is lifted, life is happy.

Of course, the general plots used to get two male(possibly female; I don't read much fem-slash) characters together are going to be generic since nearly all the ways for two people to get together have already been written about. It also doesn't help that most(not all) of slash writers are screaming yaoi fan girls that get their ideas from yaoi manga/anime.

I have to admit that I was one of them, so I have a sense of why this shows up a lot. Well, I actually still am, but I write better than that, now-a-days.

[wanderingaddict]

really? I'd say the most common plotline is incredibly pathetic, thoroughly unattractve uke-ultrabottom meets either unpleasant asshole or charming prince who is way more than the uke deserves. either way, rape ensues, uke gets teen pregnant, seme convinces uke that he loves him through more rape, the uke grins and bears unpleasant sex.

I've grown used to it though. now it hardly even irks me. what still pisses me off though is, kinda like the OP was saying, the uke has some sorta bomb-attractive friend who wants to do him, but because the uke's vagina is wide open and dripping for the seme asshole his kind, attractive friend stands no chance.

[Asexual Biped]

really? I'd say the most common plotline is incredibly pathetic, thoroughly unattractve uke-ultrabottom meets either unpleasant asshole or charming prince who is way more than the uke deserves. either way, rape ensues, uke gets teen pregnant, seme convinces uke that he loves him through more rape, the uke grins and bears unpleasant sex.

I've grown used to it though. now it hardly even irks me. what still pisses me off though is, kinda like the OP was saying, the uke has some sorta bomb-attractive friend who wants to do him, but because the uke's vagina is wide open and dripping for the seme asshole his kind, attractive friend stands no chance.

I forgot about this, surprisingly enough! This is the other very prominent plot for most yaoi/slash stories. Thank you for bringing it up! :]

[Shadowknight12]

Yeah, there's a disturbingly high amount of "rape = love" thinking going on around fanfic writers. This (hopefully) doesn't reflect the cultures the writers come from, so it's really puzzling where this reasoning arises. I suppose that it's possible that it originated in Japan (where it sort of fits culturally, considering some of the things I've heard), and that prospective slash writers have thought it as the "right" way of writing yaoi. Then there's the whole clique mentality to cinch the most common plot line ("You DARE to have your seme be a normal person? YOU BITCH! We're removing your Yaoi Writers Membership Card!"), but that's just my own explanation for this phenomenon.

But seriously people, rape is NOT love. Rape has to do with psychological issues that are completely independent of whatever emotions the rapist might feel. The rapist's feelings, in fact, often bend to accommodate for his disorders. And conversely, the raped guy should experience a wide range of psychological disorders, not always the lovey-dovey Stockholm Syndrome. And as an aside rant, rape victims developing feelings for their assailants makes little sense, considering that Stockholm Syndrome shows up when the victim *cannot flee* his captor, and his mind deals with this awful amount of stress by convincing the victim that his captor will be kind for as long as he's subservient. Rape victims may develop some weird, twisted affection for their rapists in some cases, but this needs to be justified logically and the circumstances must lead to it. Otherwise, you could just go out, rape some fucker off the street and get y'self a boyfriend!

[Asexual Biped]

You were correct with your guess that the whole "rape=love" thing comes from Japan. A LOT of yaoi manga and anime have the bottom raped, then magically fall in love with the top, or they were in love to begin with and the rape was somehow "ok" to happen.

I still like/read/watch yaoi, but have grown tired of the cliched "if I rape you, we'll fall in love!" usage. Of course, that isn't the only cliche' in yaoi manga that I've grown tired of. I kind of just want to read about a NORMAL homosexual relationship.

[wanderingaddict]

the most common explanation I've seen of it is that rape holds a lot of taboo appeal for women, and since women are the majority writers of yaoi, it ends up being included a lot. to be fair, the general idea of "rape" in yaoi isn't really "rape" so much as "the seme knows you want this and you[the uke/female reader] know you want this, but you can't admit it until he shows he makes you realize what your "body" already knows."

so, in a sense, it's just more of the uke being absolutely batshit retarded, so stupid in fact that he doesn't even know what's going on with his body. it's basically the same as the super innocent girl complaining that her vajay-jay feels tingly(!) and she doesn't know what to dooooo and it's kawaaaaaiiiiiii omg

I wouldn't get so mad about it if most slash writers actually made their bottoms(ugh) even marginally likable, rather than either helples punching bags or utterly useless little bitches. I mean, really, if you (the author) wouldn't want to have sex with the uke, why the hell would a gorgeous, athletic babe like the seme care to stick it in him? much less spend the rest of his life (ostensibly) taking care of an autistic guy who's only a few IQ points short of a drooling idiot? the fragile, spineless uke is probably the single most overused cliche in M/M writing.

but I digress. rape: yeah, it may not be "rape," but it really looks a loooooot like it, and crosses the line more than enough times to usually make no difference at all.

[Asexual Biped]

Once again, Addict, you bring up a VERY good point. I'm one of those females that, because rape is taboo in a sense, I enjoy reading it (It is NEVER ok in RL though). My problem is the overly cliched whiny male uke! GOD I'm tired of those! THAT'S my problem with yaoi now-a-days. The males don't act like males, but, sadly, that's the point of yaoi. I would read more bara if the men weren't all drawn super hairy.

Yaoi = gay drawn for women vs Bara = gay drawn for men

Too bad yaoi fans who write slash don't read more American/Western depicted gay couples. Maybe then the characters wouldn't be such pushovers!

/end rant

[Shadowknight12]

I suppose that in most cases, it all boils down to laziness on the writer's part. Sticking to stereotypes is easy, safe and comfortable. The human mind is designed to find ways to fit in groups, and writing what everyone is writing is a ridiculously easy way to achieve the oh so vaunted peer approval. It's a self-perpetuating thing that needs to be fought against like a bad, recurrent rash.

I would disagree on a point that's been brought up. I don't think that the retarded uke is objectively flawed. I think it only appears that way to males and women who know how gay guys really act, but I think that practically all yaoi writers actually do like their ukes. To them, he's not retarded, he's just confused. Wouldn't *you* be confused and bedazzled at the sight of your One True Love? (No, I wouldn't, but hey! Some people might) He's not handsome, he's *cute* in a girly way. That's why the seme wants to do him, because he's secretly straight/bi and that's hot (compare/contrast with straight dudes and their unrealistic depiction of lesbians... which are also not really lesbians but straight/bi girls willing to please the masses). And there's also the fact that the writer most likely doesn't want to sleep with the uke, she wants to BE him. The guy she wants is the seme, who will always be the epitome of everything the writer wants in a guy. Which can shed a lot of light into the writer's psyche, if you read between the lines. "Oh, so the seme exhibits mature, caretaking abilities, coupled by wisdom and strength, and commands respect in those around him? OBVIOUS DADDY ISSUES."

Oh, and I'm not defending them, mind you, I'm just playing devil's advocate for the sake of the discussion. I just think that going "oh, yes, I totally agree" would be kind of boring.

One last thing. Personally, the whole "you must penetrate me because I'm too dumb to realize what I want" offends me to the core. It's the kind of sick, twisted validation that RL rapists use for their actions. "S/He was asking for it. S/He wouldn't be dressed like that if deep down s/he didn't want it." or "Your mouth says no but your body says yes" which is made even more disgusting by the fact that some men actually do get hard while they're being raped, not because they're aroused, but because of a complex series of hormonal and chemical reactions that are triggered even more rapidly if the victim has anal sex habitually. So yeah, rant aside, the whole "you're too dumb, let me decide for you" thing makes my eye twitch.

[wanderingaddict]

lawlz, yeah, Bara, in its fierce resistence to Yaoi, goes almost 100% in the opposite direction, which really isn't a good thing either. I don't mind a little hair, but when every guy is +200 pounds and looks like a bear, it's a little much. plus bara is so skimpy on plot! it's always like "hey! lets fuck! okay wow that was great! the end!"

heh, no worries. there are enough gems to make raking the muck worthwhile, but... kinda get tired of have to work so hard all the time, ya know?

shadowknight, I'd actually argue that the retarded uke is incredibly flawed. it's an artificial contrivance that goes so far beyond just being a self-insertion fantasy that it breaks the actual story itself. none of the characters act as though they're actual people, with real responses and genuine interests, but rather just a series of arbitrary reactions clearly designed to make a vagina explode. a hardcore, total asshole seme randomly going against the grain of his character and helping some inept little girl-boy is just tossing the notion of characterization and development to the wind, and if its the (typical) example of the seme sales associate just doing the inept uke computer analyst's work for him, then it also tosses all notions of logical plot to the wind as well. the uke isn't even a character- it's just a crying cum receptacle that messes up all the time. my question of "would you want to have sex with your uke?" is more of a rhetorical question rather than lack of understanding it doesn't matter if they want to BE the uke so much as "do you respect your uke enough in both looks and ability to consider having him penetrate you(female)?" [not to be sexist here, but the few male yaoi writers just do tend to be a bit more egalitarian so how this applies to males would be a lot different] if the answer is "my uke is hot as hell and I'd ride him into the sunset!" then sweet deal, he probably doesn't even deserve the awful brand of uke! but if there's a hesitation, or a period of "warming up to" then I'd say it's pretty clear that the uke in question is nothing but a glorfied cum rag.

anywho, I'm breaking away from the argument! there definitely are stories where the reader is supposed to construct the story/take away whatever they want for themselves, and I think that is the only case where the worthless uke concept has only the slightest bit of legitimate ground. in almost all cases though, you're basically introducing a complete and utter failure at everything into a world that demands at least some marginal form of competency. unless the character was magicall born the day before, backstory, history, and setting should all have caused at least some degree of functional thought and operation. the worthless uke concept nullifies all that- even to the point that he's lost all sense of gender identity. he can't even be identified as a man, because he possesses no "masculine" traits (such as not immediately crumbling in the face of adversity, to not burst into tears at the slightest provocation, etc). in short, he's a magically spawned null with zero personality and no redeeming qualities that don't involve limitless self-sacrifice or bizarre attachments to abusive relationships. nothing about HIM is interesting, or personable, or worth reading about. all he does is serve as a means to an end (that is, to read about the seme).

I don't think think that's the end of my counterpoint, but it's late and my vision's getting blurry so I'm off to bed!

[Shadowknight12]

shadowknight, I'd actually argue that the retarded uke is incredibly flawed. it's an artificial contrivance that goes so far beyond just being a self-insertion fantasy that it breaks the actual story itself. none of the characters act as though they're actual people, with real responses and genuine interests, but rather just a series of arbitrary reactions clearly designed to make a vagina explode. a hardcore, total asshole seme randomly going against the grain of his character and helping some inept little girl-boy is just tossing the notion of characterization and development to the wind, and if its the (typical) example of the seme sales associate just doing the inept uke computer analyst's work for him, then it also tosses all notions of logical plot to the wind as well. the uke isn't even a character- it's just a crying cum receptacle that messes up all the time. my question of "would you want to have sex with your uke?" is more of a rhetorical question rather than lack of understanding it doesn't matter if they want to BE the uke so much as "do you respect your uke enough in both looks and ability to consider having him penetrate you(female)?" [not to be sexist here, but the few male yaoi writers just do tend to be a bit more egalitarian so how this applies to males would be a lot different] if the answer is "my uke is hot as hell and I'd ride him into the sunset!" then sweet deal, he probably doesn't even deserve the awful brand of uke! but if there's a hesitation, or a period of "warming up to" then I'd say it's pretty clear that the uke in question is nothing but a glorfied cum rag.

Ah, but is that not simply bad writing? I agree with you, the uke is a cumbucket and the stories are shallow and contrived, but I've wondered before if it's endemic in the genre or simply the result of bad writers. Surely, if you asked these people to write a non-yaoi story, I'd expect the same awful quality. If they were to write a medical drama, for example, I would likely cry tears of blood at the sheer vastness of their errors and lack of originality.

I honestly had a hard time following your line of reasoning with the whole "would you want your uke to fuck you" thing. I mean, it's perfectly possible for a girl not to want to do a guy she's writing, not every main character in the story has to be appealing to the author. Granted, I eventually understood (hopefully) that what you're getting at is that he's been so emasculated and chickified that he's no longer a man, and therefore if a girl wouldn't want to fuck him, that's a pretty speedy litmus test.

anywho, I'm breaking away from the argument! there definitely are stories where the reader is supposed to construct the story/take away whatever they want for themselves, and I think that is the only case where the worthless uke concept has only the slightest bit of legitimate ground. in almost all cases though, you're basically introducing a complete and utter failure at everything into a world that demands at least some marginal form of competency. unless the character was magicall born the day before, backstory, history, and setting should all have caused at least some degree of functional thought and operation. the worthless uke concept nullifies all that- even to the point that he's lost all sense of gender identity. he can't even be identified as a man, because he possesses no "masculine" traits (such as not immediately crumbling in the face of adversity, to not burst into tears at the slightest provocation, etc). in short, he's a magically spawned null with zero personality and no redeeming qualities that don't involve limitless self-sacrifice or bizarre attachments to abusive relationships. nothing about HIM is interesting, or personable, or worth reading about. all he does is serve as a means to an end (that is, to read about the seme).

I don't think think that's the end of my counterpoint, but it's late and my vision's getting blurry so I'm off to bed!

I don't disagree with you at all. However, I would like to point out the existence of the Idiot Ball. I normally assume, for the sake of my dwindling neurons, that any ridiculously retarded character who is literally too dumb to live is not, in fact, like that at all times. I assume that he is a normal, if rather stupid, person most of the time, and that he has been given the Idiot Ball to hold for the course of the story (I hand-wave it with 'romantic feelings,' which I have heard can cause crippling lapses of judgement, if Hollywood is to be believed). Granted, when I start to spot these signs, I stop reading the story, so this is eventually a moot point. What I'm trying to get at is the old adage 'people are lazy' which obviously includes writers. What's the point in making a smart character when you can make do with a retarded one who won't object to whatever ridiculous shit you put him through?

My point is that the uke is not the only character archetype to suffer that kind of lazy deterioration (I can think of many characters from stories I've read who fit your description and aren't ukes, or even involved in smut at all), and what I wonder is whether the Yaoi genre that requires/encourages that kind of writing, or if it's just the result of a heavy infestation of inexperienced writers who think it's cool to write awful Yaoi to belong to a clique.

[Asexual Biped]

he can't even be identified as a man, because he possesses no "masculine" traits (such as not immediately crumbling in the face of adversity, to not burst into tears at the slightest provocation, etc). in short, he's a magically spawned null with zero personality and no redeeming qualities that don't involve limitless self-sacrifice or bizarre attachments to abusive relationships. nothing about HIM is interesting, or personable, or worth reading about. all he does is serve as a means to an end (that is, to read about the seme).

While I'd agree with you most of the time, I do have to stand up for those authors(of which they're very few who do, and even fewer who do it correctly) who give their bottom characters psychological disorders, such as Depression or Bipolar. These conditions, when long-standing, have the ability of emasculating anyone. Of course, they also, in my opinion, give the character a sense of world-weariness. Just wanted to bring that point up.

One last thing. Personally, the whole "you must penetrate me because I'm too dumb to realize what I want" offends me to the core. It's the kind of sick, twisted validation that RL rapists use for their actions. "S/He was asking for it. S/He wouldn't be dressed like that if deep down s/he didn't want it." or "Your mouth says no but your body says yes" which is made even more disgusting by the fact that some men actually do get hard while they're being raped, not because they're aroused, but because of a complex series of hormonal and chemical reactions that are triggered even more rapidly if the victim has anal sex habitually. So yeah, rant aside, the whole "you're too dumb, let me decide for you" thing makes my eye twitch.

I don't remember if I said that or not, but I apologize if I've offended. Rape and the "logic" of it DOES NOT fly in RL. I do not condone it in any way, shape, or form to actual males or females. But for some reason, I don't mind, and some times enjoy, reading about it. I would suppose that would make me a sick individual, but I just wanted to emphasize that I don't condone it in anything besides stories.

Ah, but is that not simply bad writing? I agree with you, the uke is a cumbucket and the stories are shallow and contrived, but I've wondered before if it's endemic in the genre or simply the result of bad writers.

My point is that the uke is not the only character archetype to suffer that kind of lazy deterioration (I can think of many characters from stories I've read who fit your description and aren't ukes, or even involved in smut at all), and what I wonder is whether the Yaoi genre that requires/encourages that kind of writing, or if it's just the result of a heavy infestation of inexperienced writers who think it's cool to write awful Yaoi to belong to a clique.

I think it's a bit of both, actually. I believe that most of the slash/yaoi writers are fan girls who get their inspiration from yaoi(which was made FOR women, not necessarily to accurately portray gays) and want to write their own story, but can't think of how a homosexual relationship is besides from what they've read/watched from yaoi. I was that way for a while as well, then read more realistic slash and got out of that habit.

[Concepcion33]

But a RIDICULOUS number of M/M stories follow this structure: introduce character X who meets (and probably doesn't get on with) character Y.

If you've ever read Het romance novels, they basically follow the same code as well. During my teenage years they were my staple, and I squealed when a news show did a report on them once and the way they sold like hot cakes. One name for them was the housewives' porn which always made me chuckle. Anyways, rarely did the main male character and main female character ever get along from the get-go, however the attraction that they usually deny tends to be there from the start. But we're forced to see them go through a series of events filled with hopefully some excitement and adventure until we see them fall into each others arms and live happily ever after.

When I started writing I didn't really want to use that as a basis for my stories, but realized that they did make for the most interesting stories. Is it fun to see the two main characters hook up right away and never have any problems as they advance their relationship? I'd say no. Most of the M/M stories I've read on AFF have consisted of dominant male vs submissive. Although what I've sampled is merely a small fraction of what's out there, I don't think I've seen too much of similar storylines. I'll admit, it's never fun to read a story that you can guess exactly what will happen next. It does make things more interesting when the author throws you a curve ball you didn't see coming.

[HelenBenson]

I would put some emphasis on the notion of "archetypes", instead of "stereotypes". Using a well known structure for a story doesn't mean the story is gonna be bad. The problem arises when the characters and setting are exactly the same, with different names. That's poor storytelling in my opinion. It gets boring. Giving your creation a personal touch doesn't mean giving a character different hair color.

You would be amazed at how most classic and modern adventure stories copy King Arthur's legend's structure, for example. Have you ever read those humorous texts with a sinopsis for a movie, but the names crossed out and others written instead, yet the sinopsis also applies? (Like, Star Wars and Harry Potter, you get the idea)

I found this entry (TvTropes link, read at your own risk) specially interesting regarding plot structures.

So if you follow a "boy meets girl" formula, and they are both terrible romantic comedy cut-out characters, hell yeah it is going to be bad. But "boy meets girl" with characters with more going on between them? You know, likeable, threedimensional characters? It can be good, why not?.

So, following a formula, a "recipe" = not bad. Fleshing out that formula with awfuly overdone concepts = bad.