Abortion?

[StoryJunkie]

riiight...well, moving along now. (I'm glad the air got cleared regarding the crap thing), Pixi Pirategirl brought up an interesting point about birth control pills, which, (on another board) someone else mentioned this feminist movement against men experimenting with women's bodies. Premarin was taken off the shelf because for women who had been taking it for long enough, this group of women were shown to have an elevated propensity for uterine and breast cancer. I mean, this pill was developed in Nazi-land and their test group was the (guess it) women in concentration camps. And do you know what its made of? (Here, now is the reason WHY abortion is the number one birth control method in Russia.) Because its made from horse-piss. I really don't know what the hell they make it out of now, but one wonders, doesn't one, about the ethics of pharmacists and doctors perscribing something that hadn't gone through the "ten year" test window on animals before it was introduced to the human test. I guess Aushwitz had something useful come out of it. They were the animal test group for the pill.

Although this is something that can anger me, I'm more angry at the lack of education here. I mean, I watch "How Its Made" and "Daily Planet" and I've never seen them tell anyone how a birth-control pill is made. I really would like to know, considering the impact Premarin made on the human population.

Not to mention this concern, when Premarin was taken off shelves.

"The amount of horses needed (by Wyeth) went from 40,000 to 20,000

overnight.  With the stroke of a pen, thousands of (PMU) horses became a

huge drain on the ranchers' time and effort. These are pregnant horses now,

and the only place they are going to is feed lots, and from there, to

slaughter." ~ Dr. Ray Kellosami, horse rescuer, Dateline NBC -  January 18,

2004

"What we are witnessing is yet another bloodbath, this time of PMU mares,

adding to the annual foal genocide which has taken place for decades. We are

calling for the drug company, Wyeth, to take responsibility in helping these

mares so that they are not slaughtered. It is the very least they can do

after being responsible for these animals being turned into four-legged drug

machines for over half a century."  ~ Susan Wagner, president, Equine

Advocates

[demonakasha]

Hello from your Moderator,

I am going to be monitoring this topic closely from now on. Since this is such a touchy topic, if it comes to arguments/insults

again the topic will be locked. Please keep this a clean debate and stick on topic. Please keep the focus of the debate on the

topic instead of personal attacks on other forum users.

DemonAkasha

[Guest DarkAvenger]

It seems a few people are um... kinda getting a little hot under the collar on this particular topic.

Since it is such a touchy subject, I'm not even going to say a word on it, simply state this.

If this particular thread gets reported to me one more time, I'm going to have to put my foot down and simply close the topic to prevent further un-necessary stress. [it has been reported three times now, by three different people.]

Opinions are fine, no matter who's they may be.

Discussions are fine, no matter the topic.

No one opinion is "right" or "wrong", no matter how misguided anyone else may think it to be, no matter how much it may ruffle another's feathers. All opinions are just that, opinions.

The above three statements are not only aimed at this discussion, but at any discussion that involves opinions of any kind.

Now, in light of all of that, let's all just try to get along, shall we?

[StoryJunkie]

My sincerest apologies to anyone whose sensibilities I may have offended. I also extend those same apologies to the admins for having to have to post the warning. This is what happens when Junkies don't get their fix...the things I've read as fact or fiction, I do not close my eyes to. Sometimes I cannot make sense of it all, at others, so clear, I'm standing on the world unmindful of my feet. I shall go play freecell and minesweeper as punishment.

[demonakasha]

Since this thread has kind of stopped being active I would like to throw my 2 cents into the mix.

I believe abortion should remain legal. I feel it needs to remain an option until a fool proof method to birth control is found.

The only fool proof method right now is have everything removed, but this person is say 19 doesn't want kids now, but will possibly want some in the future. I don't see this as being the ultimate brith control solution. Nor do I see adoption as a complete solution. I know horror stories about group homes that I have known people from. (www.slowchildren-atplay.com) <- Wow this site is bad.

For reasons like this I see it as being allowed to stay legal and an allowable choice.

[Guest Chilli]

Men don't seem to share the same legal rights as women in this area, and I find that kind of...hm, what's the word? not prejudiced or segregation or ...well, I don't know what the word is that I'm searching for.

Contrary? Hippocritical? What's the word? (Now this is going to drive me crazy for at least two minutes!)

Maybe biased?

I've been finding Adara of Giovanni posts absolutely fascinating and insightful (yes it's possible to have an open mind without changing your opinion). I'm a pro-Choice with a pro-Life attitude.

Abortion should never be used as a form of contraceptive. And for some women (and their husbands) it is the most agonizing and personal decision they could ever make.

Again, while abortion should not be used as a way of handling unwanted pregnancies, in the case of rape it may be act of desperation for a woman. Or in the case of a parents with a potentially congenital disease that could be passed down to their children.

With abortion, women (and men) have that legal option. And for some, it is a decision that often haunt them for years.

[Guest WFK]

I'm not going to enter this particular fray...but I am pro-choice.

[Guest Yhitzak]

While I have the utmost respect for a woman who chooses to have an abortion after taking the proper level of precautions against pregnancy (i.e. birth control pills, condoms and the like). However, when a woman decides to abuse her rights by using abortion and plan A, it grates me. Not only does the act disgust me, but with every woman that treats abortions in such a way, more fuel gets added to the fire that is Anti-Abortion legislation. These women, while the minority, are launched into the public eye and are treated as if they are the norm. Therefore, people are taught that women who have abortions are irresponsible and can't handle having certain freedoms.

Yeah, woo! *Finally* *someone* has made an intelligent statement about this subject! Out of the minimum two dozen women I know who have admitted to having abortions, only one of them was the type who used it as a form of Plan A birth-control. The others were in shitty situations be it financially, physically, or emotionally. Contrary to what this thread would have us believe, abortion isn't usually a spur-of-the-moment decision or even a commonly used form of birth control (see Pixagi's quote). Abortion is usually a last-resort option and demonizing women for making this choice is plain silly.

If you look at abortion and birth-control through the ages, you can trace the use of these devices clear back to ancient Sumeria, one of the first civilizations in the world. This wasn't even really an issue until about a hundred years ago when the quality of life became a real, in-your-face notion for everyone in this country. With the Industrial Revolution came child-labor laws and a newfound love and respect for our children. Before that, having kids was primarily a matter of survival.

And you know, regarding the legality of this issue, I'd really like to hear some suggestions for alternatives. And adoption is automatically out, both because it's too obvious a solution and an unrealistic solution on a major scale. Gay people can't even adopt in most states, and they're a good fraction of the population who is seeking to adopt. So say we outlaw abortion in all of its forms. Then what? Who is going to take care of not only the millions of unwanted babies, who is going to take care of their mothers?

My suggestion to everyone who might read this thread is to do some volunteer work at a Planned Parenthood clinic or some other social function. Babysit a local kid. Figure out just how hard parenthood is and *then* tell me that it's a crime to eliminate a life that hasn't even begun. I know so very, very many children who never had a chance from the very beginning; their mothers gave birth to them because having an abortion would leave a black mark on their souls. So you tell me which is better: creating a life with the sole purpose of destroying it, or eliminating the life before it can feel pain? And before anyone has the chance, the few instants of debateable pain that the fetus may or may not feel during the actual procedure is not enough to convince me of the evils of this act. Moral righteousness is all fine and good, but this topic is too much a case-by-case situation to be able to accurately make blanket statements about it.

And it's easy to talk about a thing that one has never experienced first-hand. I get the impression that the majority of people who've posted on this thread have never had to question whether or not to have an abortion. How many of ya'll have kids? How many of you have never even had a pregnancy scare? I'm not looking for explicit or detailed answers, here, but I am suggesting that ya'll think about yourselves and your own lives in reference to this subject before making a concrete decision either way. We're not just talking about ourselves, here, we're talking about other people's lives. This isn't about you or me or even the lot of us; it's about the whole of the nation's women, men, and everyone else. This isn't a matter of personal health and security, it is a matter of *national* health and security.

[Nanaea]

I have three children. Two were unplanned pregnancies. Obviously, I've been faced with that question. More than once, as a matter of fact.

I had two pregnancy scares while I was still in high school. Both times I (I don't want to say pray, because I'm agnostic, but yeah, that's about what it amounted to) asked for some cosmic help. I knew I wasn't ready or willing to be a mother yet. Both times it ended up being a 'false alarm'. Two decades and three 'official' (because I had a positive pregnancy test result) miscarriages latter, I realized that those false alarms were most likely early miscarriages. Coincidence? Maybe.

So, yeah, I think I'm qualified to state my opinion. As I said before, it's not for me - but I'm not going to tell someone else that they can't have one.

I don't see there being any other alternatives, and perhaps that was your point, Yhitzak? Either you go through with the pregnancy, or you don't. Either you keep the child, or you don't.

[Guest Adara]

I am like Nan, I DO have children, and I have been faced with the fear and knowledge that a person is going to be leaning on me for support, affection AND protection. I HAVE been faced with the question of whether or not I would be strong enough and willing enough to face the upcoming pregnancy and then the rest of their lives.

I think Yhitzak, perhaps you should have read all those other posts clearly. Most of the women who have kids and have posted something, have stated that they do so.

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

Since the beginning of this thread, and my own participation in this discussion, much has changed for me. My views being one of them. This, however, is not to say that I'm suddenly anti-abortion. Quite the adverse, really. Now, I'm even more pro-choice then I was before, though the thought of Plan A Abortions still piss me off.

As the other mods already know, and as Nanaea was especially great about, I had an abortion back in March. This decision did not come easily nor readily, as a few may have noticed. Worse part is it wasn't even done right, so I ended up becoming extremely ill and having my ability to have and carry any future pregnancies threatened. This pregnancy, as a couple of you might remember, happened when I was taking the pill. Apparently, it does only take ONE miss. At first we were going to keep it, then some emotional issues arouse and we decided and abortion was the best route. Still, to this day there is a real chance that I may be sterile. And the aftermath of everything taxed heavily on both myself and Cain, leading to some serious issues that have just recently been resolved.

And yet, even though I hope I NEVER have to go through that experience again, and fear that I may not even have the choice to in the future, if I could change anything, I wouldn't (okay, except maybe the $700+ I spent on private offices just to end up in the Worse Hospital in Brooklyn and get billed nearly $3000). Fuck knows I shed many tears during that, but the whole situation help both Cain and myself reach a better point in our relationship and to advance as people.

Not to mention that I realize now had we chosen to keep the baby, we would NEVER been ready to care for him/her, especially not together. That kid would have grown up with all kinds of emotional problems, besides the ones he/she would have inherited from us, and would likely end up on the 5 o' clock news featured as the leading suspect in a school shooting in 15 or so years. This is also why we never once considered adoption. There's just too much of a chance that the kid would have ended up being treated like dirt by a family who was only in it for the foster care checks. It was going to be either us raising that baby, or no one at all.

And truly, considering what happened very recently, it may very likely have done more then just destroy my relationship with Cain.

Now that everything is said and done, Cain and I are closer then we had been and we're both in a better place mentally and emotionally then we were back when I was pregnant. And, hell, now we're planning on getting married later this year, something that probably would never have happened. Now, we also have a plan. We never want to go thought that ordeal again, so we're beginning to save up money for any future pregnancies so that we can at least be more financially prepared then we were last time. I'm also taking steps to get my own mental health on a more stable footing. It's bad enough that any kids I may have WILL inherit a nasty chemical imbalance from me and Cain, it would be even worse if mine is still unchecked while raising them.

So, yeah, I HAVE been faced with that question, and realized either way I was risking something. If I had decided to keep it, I may have destroyed that kid's life along with Cain's and my own. With the route I took, there's a chance I will never get pregnant again. I'd rather take the chance of never having kids. Cain and I have discussed what we would do if I were to become sterile, and adopting other kids is the route we'll probably go if that's the case. Hell, might do that either way.

[madlodger]

Fact 1: The technology to perform an abortion is currently in existence

Fact 2: Slavery is illegal (where I live)

Based on those facts, it should be a personal choice for the pregnant individual on how to proceed. There are cosequences, of course. Any decision we make will lead to them. Good or bad, people would have to deal with them. But no political group should have power to deny other free sitizens access to technology or make decisions for them.

As a fun thought, if males could get pregnant from a speck of dust from female's body, from a single intercourse, then this current issue would be treated much differently.

[foeofthelance]

I am both pro choice and pro life. It really isn't that hard; I've been raised to take responsiblity for my actions, no matter what the cost, and if I were to get a woman pregnant, well then its my own damn fault. (Ok, her's as well, as it does take two to tango, but I'm most definitely a contributing factor.) But the thought of someone being able to tell me what to do with my own body scares the crap out of me, and is not something I would insist be done to another person. I object to abortion in all but the three cases (rape, incest, mother's life) but can understand how other people might reach the opposite decision, and I respect that. I myself do questionable things on a regular basis, such as crossing a major highway on foot. Yet if someone suddenly told me that I couldn't because they thought it was simply wrong, not illegal just wrong, then I would smack them upside the head continously until they saw the light of reason.

[Guest Yhitzak]

I thought I might take a moment to make a clarification about my previous post: I really wasn't looking to criticize anyone specifically or directly, I was really just trying to say, "Think about this." Like I said, I wasn't really looking for direct responses, I really was just saying to think about it. My point was and still is that our experiences influence the decisions we make throughout the course of our lives. What this whole issue really exemplifies is each individual person's inclination to make themselves out to be less of a sinner (or whatever) than anyone else. Like just because we would choose not to do this thing, *no one* should be able to make that choice. This isn't a statement directed toward the users of this forum specifically, but more of a statement directed toward humanity as a whole.

Yo, Pixagi, for whatever it's worth, I'd like to say thanks for sharing your personal experience on this. It's never an easy thing to discuss, losing a pregnancy (however it should come about), but you've done so quite well. Thanks. And you know... when I read your posts, I get this little shred of hope that there are intelligent people *somewhere* in this world. I know it sucks and I know it hurts, but I'm proud of you for admitting to all of this. It takes guts.

[Kyouryoku Senshi]

I voted yes. I support a woman's choice 100%. Especially in cases of rape or incest. If a woman does not want to have a baby or is not ready to have one, she reserves the right to choose. Taking that right away is taking away the rights you hold over your body. Just because someone disagrees with it doesn't mean they should have the right to tell women what to do with their bodies.

Edited July 22, 2007 by Kyouryoku Senshi

[Shinju]

Am I the only person who thinks "I'm not going to touch that subject with a ten foot poll" anytime the word abortion is mentioned? I mean I could, but it's just so emotionally draining.

[Lost_Soul]

I wish you had a "It depends on the situation" choice because I think it should be legal if the unborn child will be most likely born sick or deformed and if the parents wish not to have the child to go through that or if a woman was raped and she is traumatized to even have the rapists child, then that is understandable. But... if a woman wants an abortion because she realized she did a mistake and didn't use protection and doesn't want to deal with the consequences of having the baby then that is her problem, she should have thought about not opening her damn legs in the first place or let alone USE A freaking CONDOM or take some kind of contraceptive! D< She chose to fuck, now she should deal with her bad decision. And if she did used the contraceptives and/or condom.... then this means God wants you to have a kid. XP; At least set the baby up for adoption, pregnancy and birth isn't that awful to go through... XD; (from what I heard >.>

[Masamune]

i can't get pregnant (cuz i'm a guy) so i don't really feel i should have a say in this unless it was my baby

(guess that makes me pro-choice)

[DemonGoddess]

Am I the only person who thinks "I'm not going to touch that subject with a ten foot poll" anytime the word abortion is mentioned? I mean I could, but it's just so emotionally draining.

Nope. I have my opinions on it, of course, but choose to keep 'em private.

[Guest Monsterking]

though i am an man i do feel that women should have control over what happens to them

peace out dudes!

[shinigamiinochi]

Every time I hear this argument, I think, hey, here is the possibility of a law being passed that is telling me what to do with my body. What's next? A law saying that all guys have to be circumcised? I'm a lesbian and have no desire to have kids, but the mere possibility that I could get pregnant and someone will tell me 'tough luck', scares the shit out of me. My mom says that once I get older I'll change my mind. However, whenever I see a pregnant woman, I think of the chestbuster scene from Alien and the zombie baby scene from the new Dawn of the Dead. I highly respect any woman who decides to go through with it, i don't know how you do it, but personally I'd see it as an alien parasite that invaded my body without my permission. What you do with your body is your business. If think abortion is murder (which I seriously think that it isn't), then fine, don't get an abortion, but leave the rest of us alone.