Shadowknight12

Wow, awesomely insightful posts, people. This has got me thinking, apparently my perceptions are rather skewed. I honestly thought that the things you people are expounding on (Bad boy = allure of the forbidden, women thinking that sex = love, wanting the asshole to see what the fuzz is about, etc) were a thing of the past, or perhaps only the purview of naïve teens (which one assumes, and I strongly, heavily emphasize the word 'assumes,' are mostly absent from this site). I pretty much assumed that once you emerge from a sheltered childhood (which is the typical kind of childhood), you see the world for what it truly is and so this kind of thing shouldn't happen. I guess I was sadly, perhaps even hilariously, mistaken? I mean, this is the kind of thing I get from mindless teenagers (though not all teenagers are like this, of course), but not from alleged adults. To me, the moment you hit 18, you're an adult and you ought to start acting like one. Romanticizing abuse (of any kind) is not the adult thing to do. Attaching feelings to just any type of sex is a recipe for heartbreak, which simple observation of the people around you should tell you. The bad boy is called bad for a reason. You're going to get hurt. And if you do, in fact, get hurt when you knew full well what was going to happen, you deserve it for being such an idiot. I mean, the logic is pretty obvious to me, where the hell do these people get lost? Aren't they paying attention to what happens to others? Do they think it's not going to happen to them? One thing I *do* get, however, is the FAKE abuse thing during sex. If you and your partner are in a normal relationship, but every Friday night you decide to roleplay a noncon situation, that's fine by me because it's all an act. The safe word is spoken and bam, everything goes back to normal. So yeah, that's probably the ONLY time I can totally get the whole D/s, M/s, BDSM kind of thing. Because it's just a kink two sane people indulge in, knowing full well it'd be wrong if they actually meant it. Sort of like rapefics on this site when they're written by normal folks. Most of the time (and once again, I emphasise the word 'most') it's just a harmless fantasy. It's like portraying a rapist in a show, that doesn't mean that the actor actually goes around raping people on his spare time. Same thing goes for kinky sex. Some people get off on being spanked, some really like to be held down and slapped around, physically or verbally, during sex, some people like doing the holding and the slapping. I'm not going to judge them, we all have our turn ons. The important thing is that it's consensual and any asshole/abusive behaviour is faked for the enjoyment of both parties. Now, about the gender thing, this is one of the things that surprised me the most, that apparently women still think the same way they did 20-something years ago. Haven't we moved on as a society since then? Do women still think that a sexual relationship necessarily means anything other than oh, I don't know... a relationship of a sexual nature? That sex actually means anything in and of itself? Might as well try and find meaning in breathing, eating or scratching an itch. I mean, anything can mean anything as long as two or more people agree on it. If you disagree with that assignation of meaning, nobody's going to kill you or chew you out, most of us don't live in that kind of society anymore. If you want to give sex your own meaning, go ahead! It's what you're supposed to do. But then again, that would imply THINKING and we all know that's a bad, bad thing. I will agree with you all on blaming the media. After all, we need a scapegoat and they're pretty dastardly. Though they're giving people what they (think they) want, so maybe they ARE to blame. The message, disturbingly, seems to be "Hey, it's okay to be stupid, because we're all stupid and not being part of the herd is badwrong. You don't want to die alone, don't you? Come and be stupid with us." A stray thought that came to me: Do writers write about assholes and swear that they love their abused partners because they want to believe that the same thing can happen IRL? It does echo the archetypical abuse victim defending their abuser, though. It chills me to think that these people might hold these irrational conceptions because stories have assured them beyond all doubt that it is possible to look into a douchebag's soul, cast Detect Love and find solid proof that their behaviour is just their way of showing they care. Blargh. Excuse me for a moment while I retch. An aside on strong female characters: MORE PLEASE. And more strong characters in general. Enough with the little bitches that get trampled all over like a doormat. Don't go to the other extreme and write a story solely consisting of assholes (amusing as that sounds), because then it's just the equivalent of injecting yourself with antifreeze. It might sound like a ton of fun, but we all know it ends painfully. Just try to write real characters. It's not easy, but hey, why should it be? Just observe the people around you and let your characters do what comes natural to them. I laughed when I first read Romeo and Juliet as a preteen, thinking it was a satire on romance. Then it hit me, days later, that it was written BEFORE that attitude became prevalent and that people were actually taking that shit seriously even today. I think that was one of my first facepalms. And finally, yes, M/s and D/s relationships, when they're not just a kink but an actual 'lifestyle' (and I use that term loosely because the right word eludes me), are incredibly complex and full of nuances that justify why they behave that way. Which, once again, requires research, observation and thinking to pull off correctly. Oh, and practice. But then again, pretty much everything requires practice.

Ah, that explains a lot. So no software upgrades. Yeah, I definitely see the problem with making changes, since nobody's around to help. Oh well. Hopefully this site will continue to grow, along with donations, and eventually it'll be affordable.

Bloody hell, I thought it was just a few hundred bucks. And yeah, that sounds about right, having a separate database for reviews/replies and stories is likely the smartest choice. Though holy shit, with less than a thousand dollars in the AFF account, a software upgrade isn't likely to happen anytime soon.

A rather imbecilic question, I'm fully aware, but isn't it possible to do a donation drive (or several?) to set aside a bit of revenue from each month to save for a software upgrade? Something that can enable this feature and handle more customization, database size, etc. Sort of what you guys have done for the forum, actually.

Yeah, pretty much what everyone's said here. You can't let someone younger than you boss you around, that's just hilariously wrong. Like DemonGoddess said, you need to set up boundaries. Otherwise people (and especially bratty tweens) just trample you like wholly mammoths. I suggest you send her a link to "Hit The Road Jack" on Youtube and let her figure out on her own what you mean.

Ah, I see. Yeah, see, that's something logical and sane. I can't really compute a deviation from that reasoning. I mean, there can't be THAT many masochistic people out there. Hah! Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, when I'm a complete asshole to you, it's because you've done something to deserve it. Maybe you were really stupid, maybe you shoved a pregnant woman to get the last cab on a rainy day. Either way, there's a reason you're getting the verbal hose and if you were a smart person, you'd use that to avoid making the same mistake in the future. Hence why this behaviour bothers me. What's the deal? What makes people disregard common sense like that? What's so cool about the bad boy, other than a really lazy way to get excitement?

Heh, can't you see that sort of thing with your admin status? I remember that in my days as a global mod in another forum, we used to run IP checks all the time, and that sort of info cropped up immediately on the WHOIS query search. You know what dawned on me as I read that blog's articles? It's not about the sex. It's like a sport, a competition between other guys who play the game. I think this spawned from the moment one guy finally scored the hottest girl in the room, fucked her and realized it wasn't all it's cranked up to be. And with society telling him that this should be teh bestest thing eva, it soon became obvious that something new had to appear in the dating scene to make all this effort worthwhile. And thus the competition was born. And how do they get new participants, as the jaded fuckers quit? They convince others that indeed, by mastering the game they'll get any chick they want and that it's the best thing ever. Then one day I imagine it must dawn on them that the only truly 'exciting' thing about the entire business is to show off how many girls you've scored and how high up the scale they were. Or at least this is what I get from those articles. There's never a "she was into a lot of kinky stuff" or "she liked anal," there's "she was a 10" and "I got into this group of friends, turned them against each other and scored the hottest one." Actually, I think what the guy advocates is to give them a smidgen of true attention (not the kind most guys are used to giving out, which is the head-nodding, glazed-eyes, totally-imagining-you-naked kind, but actual focused attention), then taking it away and making the woman work for it, hence tilting the balance of power in his favor. But this is pure speculation. Yeah, a part of me wants to believe that those women are being crafty and hoping to score on the killer's assets once he gets fried. At least that's something I could understand. Because then it'd be like a reverse predation, getting a small revenge on that motherfucker. The woman goes after the guy who's been locked up for life with no kind of sexual release, and uses that to manipulate him to her advantage. Now THAT would be smart. But no, I imagine that if the woman bears him a child, she's not doing it for the money (since that's completely unnecessary if the guy agrees to marry her). I know that there's a lot of insecure people out there, but holy fucking mother of shit, this has to have reached pandemic levels. If you try your luck with a convict because your twisted mind tells you that THIS is the way to inject excitement into your dreadfully boring life, then go see a psychiatrist NOW. Excitement is not the sort of thing you get by making a token effort to get some asshole's attention and spreading your legs for them. Excitement, like all the good things in life, is something you have to WORK for. This reminds me of this webcomic I read that's been recently depicting a verbally and physically abusive relationship (though it's consensual... I think) and just a few minutes ago I've decided to stop reading the comments section, since it's full of people wishing they could have that same kind of relationship. Granted, some of them (like me) say that they like the dynamic because it's entertaining and it's interesting to see how it's going to unfold within the comic's larger plot, but some people actually want to be in the abused person's place, and find the assailant hot (did I mention that he was a hired killer, to boot? Yeah...) and would totally spread their legs for him at the drop of a hat. Fucking fuckers fuck. EDIT: I take offense at the snarky asshole bit! I consider myself one (hey, we all deal with human stupidity in our own way!), and consider these lame fuckers as a stain on our reputation.

Well, an opinion as a reader is welcome too! I'm actually more surprised by the positive reactions of the readers than by the fact that assholes are being written. I mean, the writer knows why the character is an asshole, but the readers don't, hence their liking surprises me. Hmmm, possibly. I agree with you on that, the typical yaoi seme needs a good punch in the face 99% of the time. Though I can't comment on Japanese culture since I'm woefully unfamiliar with it. I currently have two pet theories, neither of which is completely satisfying. One, that people are shallow (since IRL asshole personalities are usually associated with good looks) and seeing a douchebag character triggers social conditioning, therefore perceiving the character as attractive and likeable; and/or two, that people are spineless, and that bitch/asshole personalities make relationships easy for those who just want sex and/or someone who makes all the decisions for them and demands little in return but submission. Interesting point. I had heard of that, yes, but it's thankfully rare where I come from. Here, if a guy is a douche but hot, the girl will put up with him because she wants to get laid (and the relationship will continue only until she gets bored of him), or he's going to have to toe the line between charmingly cocky and disgustingly arrogant to keep her around. I think that this might stem from the fact that women aren't encouraged to being pursuers in a relationship, because although nowadays women KNOW that sex is pleasurable, society discourages them from actively going out to get some (calling them sluts and whores if they do so) and the asshole preys upon this to get laid (in that blog you linked, just from looking at the first few articles, you can tell that the guy is using basic exploitative psychology). Or that's what I believe, anyway.

wanderingaddict: Ah, I see. Actually, that does sound like it's far, far worse of an imagery (I've never had a snickers bar, so I only knew it by name). Asexual Biped: Well, since there's a surprisingly low interest in this thread (odd, considering that this could become an interesting topic with more contributions), I guess I'll contribute the same way wanderingaddict did, citing personal examples of flirts I'd enjoy. The kind of flirt I like is spontaneous, transparent and honest. It just appears naturally if the conversation heads that way (For example, making a pun when I say something that leads to it). And what's more important, it's not just jarringly delivered like a silver bullet that's guaranteed to 'get' me, but instead it's a part of a greater sum of actions, like spending time with me doing cool stuff, talking about common interests, etc. In fact, I am far, far more interested in hearing about the story of your life or I don't know, your belief system, than I am in hearing your oh so witty repertoire. Firstly, it's rarely as witty as you think it is, and secondly, it doesn't really matter in the long run. Give me substance, not form. Tell me what you think about the world and humanity, tell me what stuff you like and what you can't stand. What do you do in your spare time? Do you get along with your family? Hobbies? Future goals? Where do you see yourself in twenty years? I'm terribly interested in all that. If I think we're compatible, then sure, start flirting. I enjoy cleverness and originality in all things, and flirting is no exception. And hey, if you don't want to flirt at all, that's perfectly fine by me too. Sometimes there's a moment where no words need to be said, where body language speaks volumes and all you need to do is read it and go with it. As an aside, this was kind of hard to write, since I realized I haven't had many instances of successful flirting in my direction. Most of the times, it was of the "nice [insert part of anatomy here]!" or "hey, I'd do you!" variety, which really doesn't fly with me. But those are actually pretty manageable, since they're short and to the point, they can be ignored easily. The absolutely worst kind of failed attempt at flirting is when they start spouting stuff they'd like to do to/with you, as if they expect you to be awed by their sexual prowess. Hahahah, no. Pretty much an anti-turn-on. In fact, you're better off with me pretending to be absolutely clueless about sex. I hope this helps? I might ask around my friends when I see them and bring you more opinions. One of them is a hopeless romantic, so I might be able to give you some insight on that regard.

I have noticed, in some stories, a tendency for readers to praise the appearance of a complete asshole as a character. And I'm not saying that they enjoy seeing him/her get their just desserts, I'm saying that they recognize that the character is an utter douchebag and they like the story *because* of this and not *in spite* of it. You know the kind of character I mean, the one we all know couldn't get laid IRL even you gave them a handful of roofies, but in stories everyone falls head over heels for them. I fail to understand how being mistreated and considered inferior is a turn on in any way. Or, for example, how an allegedly sane, normal character suddenly goes 'hey, I should totally fuck this person who's totally disrespecting me!' Or, the trite excuse that is only a smidgen more plausible than the others: 'sure, she might be a bitch, but she's really hot and awesome in bed.' Seriously? That's their excuse for putting up with her? Wow. Here, random character, have a nickel and go buy yourself a spine. And what's worse, some people seem to genuinely think that this attitude is actually 'confidence' and praise it as a good thing. I'm not going to go into details on that, because it's a whole other can of worms. I'll be honest: This disturbs me. It disturbs me in the same way people filming a train wreck or car crash, instead of rushing to help or calling 911, disturb me. It's the kind of behavior I cannot wrap my mind around. My lack of comprehension needs to be remedied. So here I am, in the forums, asking any kind passer-bys to please explain to me how these people's brains work. Do tell me, I'm all eyes and ears. What makes you interested in this kind of people? How do you feel about this behavior, what parts of it appeal to you? Do you feel personally attracted to them or do you simply find it amusing/original/refreshing/daring/other? Do you believe that a story is automatically improved by the addition of a character such as this one? Anything at all that you feel can shed some light into this puzzling phenomenon will be more than welcome.

Awesome! The Demon Goddess does it again! Thanks for taking the time to fix this, I know you probably had more important battles to fight.

Ahhh, clarity dawns on me like the realization of one's own mortality! Can't you create a label that says "AFF Author Page:" and then have the link read the person's nick? Like "AFF Author Page: Shadow Knight"?

I read that, and all I understand is "something, something, label, something something, the problem is 'something something,' expospeak, guys you're all so silly, can't you see how simple this is?" (Joking with the admins, it's the new sword-juggling )

Cute? I um, think we're talking about different things, since none of the stuff that comes to mind when I think of that term can possibly qualify as even remotely cute... (Reference: Urban Dictionary) Though a snickers bar sounds funnier, even if it lacks the pun effect.

As a completely minor and ignorable nitpick, is there a way to have the AFF Author Page link moved to a center position, just like Group, Posts, Joined, Gender, etc.? I kind of stands out the way it is now, all the way to the left.

Works perfectly! Thanks!

I'm having the same problem as FairySlayer, and it's not working right now. EDIT: Now that I check, my link actually goes to where it should (Games) but it doesn't actually appear as an editable field on the Edit Your Profile section.

Asexual Biped: Thanks! I don't think I really offered that much, but hey, if it helped you that's awesome. Oh, yeah, definitely. It's just not 'real' flirting, since it's all joking (And to me, a joke is a joke. I'm not the kind of person that tries to disguise his feelings with humor, hints or mixed signals. If I like you, you'll know. If I'm joking, then that's all there is to it. Unless, of course, we're in a relationship, in which case yes, jokes will be loaded. Otherwise, no.). Though really, pretty much all my friends are awfully squeamish (even the gay ones) so I have to hold back a lot. Like, the other day, we saw this woman in her sixties who was ridiculously dressed (she was trying to go for 'sexy' and failing. Hard.) and everyone was like "Oh, look at that old hag, she has no shame! She looks hideous! How can she go out like that?" and I went "Well, she has a nice ass, for her age. I'd tap that." and then they looked at me like I was crazy. I said "It was a *joke* guys!" and laughed, but it was mostly at their horrified reactions. Or the time I suggested, with a straight face, to get one of our female friends an extra large dildo for her birthday. Yeah, that went over *well*. Agreed. I don't really care about looks, so that attitude only makes me rise my eyebrow and go "Is that really the best you can do? Show off your looks? Yeah, I'll pass." LOL. Yeah, I'm so glad "gay chicken" or whatever they call it isn't at all common down here. I'm ridiculously protective of my personal space. If you're not going out with me, don't touch me. Unless you're like, crying your bloody eyes out and you really need a hug/shoulder to cry on. And you know, it's actually hilarious, I had never even thought of how I'd react if someone were to randomly cup my crotch. Violence? Though I might also just freeze in disbelief, going "Dude, what the fuck are you doing?" LMFAO, food for thought. I have only one question: Was it a Hershey? Because if so, that's a very witty play on the 'Hershey kisses' slang term. One thing I'd like to point out is that, barring the influence of alcohol or a sudden moment of crushing vulnerability to be exploited, a bromantic friendship that is usually known for joking flirting won't spontaneously develop into explosive sex. If two guys are used to harmless flirting and nothing more, they're not going to just jump each other's bones unless something unusual happens that changes things (like the aforementioned booze/moment of crushing loneliness/nasty breakup needing rebound sex/etc). And even then, 75% of friendships like that bounce right back to normal and pretend it never happened (or it was just a one time thing). Remember habits are VERY hard to break, so the two might not wish to break their comfortable routine. After all, why ruin a good thing? Unless they're friends with benefits, but we all know that kind of thing doesn't last for very long in most cases. It either solidifies into a committed relationship or it dissolves when time constraints make it hard for them to meet (due to other relationships demanding attention, work, family, etc.). Some, however, manage to make it work, usually by setting aside time for each other (which is pretty much how ALL relationships stay alive). But I went on a tangent! My point was that flirting is not really an indication of people having sex, even if that's normally what it's used for. Don't underestimate the non-serious flirt! Some people simply enjoy flirting for its own sake, and some don't even consider it flirting at all (I, for example, would never flirt seriously with someone I wasn't going out with, but I would definitely joke around *all the time* if I had less squeamish friends).

I don't have much to contribute to this topic, since I do not flirt with strangers on a matter of principle. What I can point out is that it depends on the man's age, his cultural upbringing (this includes country, city, education, socio-economic status, race, etc.), the person he's flirting with (a guy will change his flirting style depending on his target), the place he's at (it's not the same thing to flirt in the intimacy of your own home than it is to flirt in public, especially in stories/places where homosexuality isn't openly accepted), the time the story takes place in, and a multitude of factors. There's no formula or set of rules, it really varies from case to case. What I would advise is to get to know your characters as deeply as possible, and just go with what feels natural. Of course, since you mentioned you don't have a clue how men flirt at all, you might want to start getting examples from books, tv, movies, forums and the like, and associating them with certain personality archetypes ("Oh, so the cheeky young guy is pretty blatant and playful, while the older guy is more subtle and nowhere nearly as blatantly sexual.") and then apply that to your characters. Some general cases I've observed include: * Young men looking for sex will be pretty upfront. There's rarely beating around the bushes, since they prefer to go to places where everyone already knows they're cruising for sex. The flirting is very sexual and sometimes light-hearted and playful. It depends on the image the guy wants to show and the kind of sex partner he wants to score. If a guy wants to play the "cute bottom" image, he might act playful and coy, but he might tone it down if he wants someone mature that might find it irritating. * Older guys looking for sex might go where the younger guys go and pretend to be like them, or they might head for their own areas. This can be just as blatantly sexual, or it can be a more relaxed environment, with guys trying to get to know each other before jumping into the sack. * When looking for a relationship, some guys act like their straight counterparts, trying to do nice things for the other guy (though treating him like a woman is usually a very bad faux pas), taking his time to get to know the other person before introducing sex into the equation, pretty much your standard stuff. The flirting here is more romantic in nature (sometimes), or just tamer. Instead of lurid depictions of things they'd like to do to one another when they finally find a motel, there's light teasing and testing the waters. * Some guys are awful at flirting. Whether this is perceived as adorable or annoying varies form guy to guy. Some get a pity fuck, some get a guy who finds his bumbling cute, some get an eye-roll and a head-shake. * This is very important to stress, because I think this kind of relationship is vastly under-represented, but there's relationships that evolve organically (from friends, coworkers or just acquaintances), where the flirting only appears after the two are in a relationship, and it takes the shape of more intimate teasing. The two already know each other, what they like, what turns them on, and they use that when flirting to keep the relationship alive and interesting. And now I let someone far more knowledgeable than me take the mic.

Ah, but is that not simply bad writing? I agree with you, the uke is a cumbucket and the stories are shallow and contrived, but I've wondered before if it's endemic in the genre or simply the result of bad writers. Surely, if you asked these people to write a non-yaoi story, I'd expect the same awful quality. If they were to write a medical drama, for example, I would likely cry tears of blood at the sheer vastness of their errors and lack of originality. I honestly had a hard time following your line of reasoning with the whole "would you want your uke to fuck you" thing. I mean, it's perfectly possible for a girl not to want to do a guy she's writing, not every main character in the story has to be appealing to the author. Granted, I eventually understood (hopefully) that what you're getting at is that he's been so emasculated and chickified that he's no longer a man, and therefore if a girl wouldn't want to fuck him, that's a pretty speedy litmus test. I don't disagree with you at all. However, I would like to point out the existence of the Idiot Ball. I normally assume, for the sake of my dwindling neurons, that any ridiculously retarded character who is literally too dumb to live is not, in fact, like that at all times. I assume that he is a normal, if rather stupid, person most of the time, and that he has been given the Idiot Ball to hold for the course of the story (I hand-wave it with 'romantic feelings,' which I have heard can cause crippling lapses of judgement, if Hollywood is to be believed). Granted, when I start to spot these signs, I stop reading the story, so this is eventually a moot point. What I'm trying to get at is the old adage 'people are lazy' which obviously includes writers. What's the point in making a smart character when you can make do with a retarded one who won't object to whatever ridiculous shit you put him through? My point is that the uke is not the only character archetype to suffer that kind of lazy deterioration (I can think of many characters from stories I've read who fit your description and aren't ukes, or even involved in smut at all), and what I wonder is whether the Yaoi genre that requires/encourages that kind of writing, or if it's just the result of a heavy infestation of inexperienced writers who think it's cool to write awful Yaoi to belong to a clique.

Hah, no, just the table. Oh yes, there's always that, the other million ideas going on in a writer's mind that demand attention. Eh, there's always a "maybe in the distant future" list. True, that's what I was getting at. LOL, yeah, that'd be a tiny bit too much. The problem (at least to me) is, when writing biased TPO, showing things that the character being "followed" has no way of knowing. Surely, I can say that Adrien sees a strange darkness in his girlfriend's eyes, and that he interprets that as her knowing he's cheating on her (because of his guilty conscience), but I can't assert it. Nor can I dismiss the obvious conclusion (what the character himself would think) and tell the reader the truth ("Oh, it's just the anniversary of her father's death."). It's kind of tricky to include others in biased TPO without fully 'jumping' to them. And if you do jump, well, there's the mess mentioned earlier. BWAHAHAHAHAH, you did it again. I was mindful not to drink this time. And yes, I was just about to reply that even the initial reactions WOULD be a kind of bias, since not everyone would be surprised, or qualify the corpse as "hideous" or "gross." You yourself have given me examples right there! But on the other hand, saying that not everyone was surprised to find the corpse can either enhance the suspense or break the scene's drama. So once again, it comes down to balance! And skill, duh.

LMFAO. I just spat coffee while reading that. So utterly hilarious, mainly because that's the sort of thing I usually have to write. It struck close to home for maximum hilarity. Now wait a second. That could be a funny parody of Ikea Erotica and 'Insert Rod A into Slot B' porn. Yeah, I tried to cram as many adjectives as I could. Well, I find it funny that you mentioned evidence, since that's so second nature to me I completely forgot to mention it. I read what you said and went 'oh, right! Should've mentioned evidence and subjective impressions!' It's the kind of thing that happens when you show a computer to an elderly relative, you forget to tell them about a myriad things that are obvious to you, but not so much to the other person. Personally, I don't think that you can really separate adjectives from physical cues. If you say that the air was cold, you're using an adjective that describes a physical sensation. If you say that a shiver ran down Adrien's back, you ought to clarify if it's because of the cold (assuming you didn't mention it before), because he's about to enter an elevator and he's very claustrophobic, or because his new house feels like it's watching him. You know what I mean? I think that adding a lot of adjectives to a narration isn't necessarily in counterpoint to being more physical. I do agree that it's an oft neglected point, and I will confess making a mental note of checking all five senses (or more/less, depending on the characters in question) to enhance the writing. Most of the biased writing is judgemental in nature, showing us what a character thinks about the world. There's also the sentimental kind, but that one is kind of a given, since it'd take a very bad writer to write a biased TPO without considering the character's feelings (or their lack thereof, which can be just as important!). We could be reminded to explore other types of bias, I think. And hey, I think that's definitely on topic. What we choose to show, and how, defines what kind of PoV and TPO we're dealing with. Oh, yeah, something that often goes unmentioned is that the characters observe stuff in their own way, and it's often a conundrum whether to keep the reader blind about the truth, to let them in on the real thing, or to do a double blind and keep the reader in the dark about something that the character knows. I'm planning to implement the latter in an upcoming story that deals about a mysterious figure who keeps his identity a secret, and if/when a character figures it out, the reader will most certainly NOT be allowed into that character's thoughts. I just hope I'll be able to pull it off. Oh, I think the hierarchy idea is pretty interesting. I think that one of the problems with evidence is that normally it's the same for everyone. It doesn't get interpreted in the same way, of course, but it's always there, observable by all, and using that as a crutch when shifting PoVs can lead to a mess unless you keep things neat and orderly. If five different people see a corpse hanging over their dining room table, the only thing that keeps their PoVs different is their interpretation of the sight, since the corpse is a common element to all. Of course, this can be supplemented with each character noticing different extra bits of physical evidence. The fashion obsessed teenager notices that the corpse's clothes doesn't match at all, the nerd notices that the headphones she's wearing aren't connected to anything, the neat freak starts to freak out about the bloody mess on the expensive mahogany table, et cetera. And yes, every character is biased pretty much by definition. That's why the TPO that takes sides is biased, too, because it starts to show things to the reader through the character's skewed lenses.

I suppose that in most cases, it all boils down to laziness on the writer's part. Sticking to stereotypes is easy, safe and comfortable. The human mind is designed to find ways to fit in groups, and writing what everyone is writing is a ridiculously easy way to achieve the oh so vaunted peer approval. It's a self-perpetuating thing that needs to be fought against like a bad, recurrent rash. I would disagree on a point that's been brought up. I don't think that the retarded uke is objectively flawed. I think it only appears that way to males and women who know how gay guys really act, but I think that practically all yaoi writers actually do like their ukes. To them, he's not retarded, he's just confused. Wouldn't *you* be confused and bedazzled at the sight of your One True Love? (No, I wouldn't, but hey! Some people might) He's not handsome, he's *cute* in a girly way. That's why the seme wants to do him, because he's secretly straight/bi and that's hot (compare/contrast with straight dudes and their unrealistic depiction of lesbians... which are also not really lesbians but straight/bi girls willing to please the masses). And there's also the fact that the writer most likely doesn't want to sleep with the uke, she wants to BE him. The guy she wants is the seme, who will always be the epitome of everything the writer wants in a guy. Which can shed a lot of light into the writer's psyche, if you read between the lines. "Oh, so the seme exhibits mature, caretaking abilities, coupled by wisdom and strength, and commands respect in those around him? OBVIOUS DADDY ISSUES." Oh, and I'm not defending them, mind you, I'm just playing devil's advocate for the sake of the discussion. I just think that going "oh, yes, I totally agree" would be kind of boring. One last thing. Personally, the whole "you must penetrate me because I'm too dumb to realize what I want" offends me to the core. It's the kind of sick, twisted validation that RL rapists use for their actions. "S/He was asking for it. S/He wouldn't be dressed like that if deep down s/he didn't want it." or "Your mouth says no but your body says yes" which is made even more disgusting by the fact that some men actually do get hard while they're being raped, not because they're aroused, but because of a complex series of hormonal and chemical reactions that are triggered even more rapidly if the victim has anal sex habitually. So yeah, rant aside, the whole "you're too dumb, let me decide for you" thing makes my eye twitch.

You raise a very interesting point. I personally struggle with point of view, both reading and writing it. I can only follow either a disembodied, unbiased PoV (that is, a narrator who describes things as they are, without embellishing), or get behind a character's PoV. When the author starts switching between several characters or worse, between a disembodied PoV and that of other characters, I just get confused. I want to note that I refer to when this happens within the same chapter. If a story is told with a different PoV every chapter, that's perfectly fine, I can follow. But when the writers starts whoring it up with the PoV, I get so lost I could outdo Josh Holloway. And by extension, if I can't even read this sort of thing, I can much less hope to write it. So you'll understand that when I read what you said "I tend to write more than one third person POV in stories for different characters as I jump from each", Asexual Biped, I go "What? How? How does that work?" since it's hard to wrap my head around it. I mean, unless you're very, very unsubtle with your writing (that is, clearly letting the reader know when you're switching PoV), I'll just get lost.