CloverReef

Many good reply's here, so i don't wanna repeat the same thing as the other ppl but i guess i can just add a few of my thoughts
Saying that writing about rape is lazy writing is dumb and hypocritical. It’s only lazy if ur being lazy about it, just like with any fucking topic
Now I do encounter a lot of stories that have very disgusting implications about rape. They excuse the act, blame the victim, pretend like some of the most brutal, disgusting torture could be forgiven, glorify it etc. I think this is bad writing and immoral. I do make make distinctions tho between the narrative saying awful things about rape and characters doing it. It depends on the context. And I’m also more lenient on purely pornographic works since they usually tend to be someone’s fantasy. But when u put ur fantasy in a more serious work with plot and characters ur fantasy can’t remain unchanged. I think that then you have to make sure that the narration isn’t excusing the rape or blaming the victim.

Oh god… Yeah, I’ve read articles like that too (possibly the same ones you found). It generally annoys me when people call anything in writing ‘lazy writing’ unless they’re talking about netspeak and lack of research in subjects where research is sorely needed. Rape is such a sensitive subject, and there’s a lot of people who justifiably avoid reading things with rape in it. No one should have to read shit that makes them uncomfortable or triggers anxiety/panic attacks. That being said, it’s not lazy writing. Neither is writing anything that might shock your reader, in my opinion. When I read a story, I like if it shocks me. I like if it makes me feel gross sometimes or sick sometimes and reminds me how damned ugly people can be sometimes. Rape happens. It seems insulting to me to deem a horrifying act that happens way too damn often and with so much history and weight on it ‘lazy’ or just ‘shock value’. Like it feels like it dismisses it to me, you know? 

I think its fascinating to hear other writers talk about their process for starting a story and character building. It’s so different and relatable at the same time. I tend to just write the very first scene, and then I put all the work into plotting out the character’s personalities and flaws, based on how they performed in that first scene. For me, its easier to see them as a well rounded character that way, and feel they have a life of their own. When I plan the characters before writing, I tend to have trouble connecting to them because I don’t know them yet! 
… And I just gotta say I feel you. Many a sexy villain has felled my plans. 

I think its fascinating to hear other writers talk about their process for starting a story and character building. It’s so different and relatable at the same time. I tend to just write the very first scene, and then I put all the work into plotting out the character’s personalities and flaws, based on how they performed in that first scene. For me, its easier to see them as a well rounded character that way, and feel they have a life of their own. When I plan the characters before writing, I tend to have trouble connecting to them because I don’t know them yet! 
… And I just gotta say I feel you. Many a sexy villain has felled my plans. 

Sometimes there doesn’t need to be one.
In my experience. You can hint, throw comments and other snippets to create a bigger back story.
How do they react? How do things affect the characters. Do certain things remind them? You can create an effective character purely on how does the character react to the world around them.
 
 

Absolutely! I think sometimes it's a case of the writer not trusting their words to paint a picture without the help. Or not trusting the reader to understand or get attached without the life story. At least that's been my experience. But a character's actions and decisions are far more effective to get the reader hooked enough that they'll crave that backstory over time. 
I don't know if I'm making sense anymore tonight lol. 

I agree--backstory has to come at the point when it’s relevant, and not in a data dump sometime beforehand. 
I remember someone sending me the first chapter of a story to beta, and my chief comment about it was, “I don’t want to know all of this yet.” She was explaining way too much, which tends to lead to all telling and no showing.

This is Canada, DP. Our angry mobs favour the hockey stick.

This is Canada, DP. Our angry mobs favour the hockey stick.

I love the idea of a creative writing class, just for the pure educational value of it. Learning is always valuable. But for me and people like me, it’s not an option for feedback for two reasons. Price is the first one. Personal interest classes generally run $100 and up. Actual programs will run a lot more than that (where I am). There are online free options, but those are best for independent learning rather than getting any honest feedback. Second reason is simply the subject matter. If I were to write a story for a class, I would not write the sort of things I prefer to write. I wouldn’t write anything close, because gay-themed smut does not seem like an appropriate subject matter for a creative writing class. I certainly wouldn’t have the balls to put one of my stories forward even in an open-minded university environment, much less in a very conservative small town lol. So the class could be awesome for honing skill if one can afford it, but perhaps not ideal for the sort of feedback we’re griping about lacking. 

This is Canada, DP. Our angry mobs favour the hockey stick.

You know, writing gay smut for a creative writing class in a conservative small town might prove to be an effective fitness program when you’re trying to outrun the hordes of pitchforks ...

I love the idea of a creative writing class, just for the pure educational value of it. Learning is always valuable. But for me and people like me, it’s not an option for feedback for two reasons. Price is the first one. Personal interest classes generally run $100 and up. Actual programs will run a lot more than that (where I am). There are online free options, but those are best for independent learning rather than getting any honest feedback. Second reason is simply the subject matter. If I were to write a story for a class, I would not write the sort of things I prefer to write. I wouldn’t write anything close, because gay-themed smut does not seem like an appropriate subject matter for a creative writing class. I certainly wouldn’t have the balls to put one of my stories forward even in an open-minded university environment, much less in a very conservative small town lol. So the class could be awesome for honing skill if one can afford it, but perhaps not ideal for the sort of feedback we’re griping about lacking. 

I have never had my work pre-edited. Honestly, I’ve never even really had a beta reader. My fandom stuff is too obscure for most people, and I’d need to find a beta who’s willing to read original fic that might be MM, or maybe MF, possibly fantasy-based, post-dystopian, alternate historical, or just plain controversial. I’m all over the place as far as settings and content.

I’m not discounting the rest of your post, but as a twitter conditioned person this really spoke to me! AFF, give me a heart to click!

There’s a very strange correlation I’ve noticed over the years when it comes to reading on a free archive. Unless you make it almost stupidly easy and nearly unavoidable to leave feedback, readers won’t bother. I’m going to hazard a few guesses as to why.
First, I think most readers don’t really know what sort of feedback to leave. They see writers grumbling about the “Loved it! Write more!” reviews which don’t offer the writer a clue as to what the reader loved about a story, or chapter, but at least affirm someone read it and liked it.
Second, it could be where and/or when the reader is reading your work. On the way to work? Right before bed? Maybe it’s not a good time to leave a comment, and the reader plans to come back later and review, and… I am personally guilty of this one.
Third, the Review [insert story name] link is at the bottom of each chapter, but it’s small, and easily missed. It’s also frequently confused with the Report Story link, as I can attest based on the number of reviews I get in the guise of abuse reports. And yes, I do ask the reporter to leave the comment as a review for the author, but I can’t do it myself, sadly.
And finally, people like quick buttons. The “Like” buttons on FB and Twitter have conditioned people to want to be able to just leave that instant feedback. It’s fast and requires no thought. We had a ratings feature here, but because it was scaled, it was abused more often than it should have been by readers voting down a story because it wasn’t the One True Ship, or other nonsense. I personally would be fine with a button which only records a “like” or “recommend” on a story. If you don’t like it, there’s no option for abuse. You simply don’t click.
One factor I don’t think really matters is the notion of allowing anonymous reviews. It’s an account-wide choice here, so you can’t cherry-pick which stories on which to allow anon reviews. Allowing them opens you to trolls and flamers, and disallowing them discourages readers who aren’t logged in, or who might not even have archive profiles. But I think it is probably the least relevant factor in getting feedback.

I have no problem with “self-publishing.”  It also used to be called “vanity publishing,” and for good reason.  While I might possibly go that route, or at least won’t refuse to do so, I will NOT publish anything where money is involved without a DAMN GOOD editor getting my work up to it’s best.  If I were to submit a work to a literary agency, publishing house, etc; I would have it edited FIRST just to have a “fighting chance” with THEIR editors.
I don’t currently have a “beta reader,” but that is more by happenstance than choice.  And, I’m still chasing the occasional missed word, doubled punctuation, and so on.
Which gets back to the original point of the thread, I suppose.  Quality feedback is important, especially on a site like this.

I’m going to be the fly in the ointment here, and comment on the notion of skipping an editor when self publishing. Unless you are supremely confident you can catch POV shifts, and have buttoned every thread up, unless you know you haven’t slipped in the chronology, and events take place in a reasonable/explainable span of time, unless you are self-aware enough to pick up on repetitive phrasing and overuse of certain words and phrases, you need an editor. (I tend to be vague about time lapses, and I’m insanely obstinate about abusing certain words myself. I try to make it up to my editor by being quick to turn around the comments, and not whine a lot about the work I need to do to fix my mess.  )
I like to check out new authors, and I do a lot of poking about on blogs and review sites, where I can see a bit of an excerpt. I might be captured by a summary, but when I read the excerpt, if I hit that wall because even in those roughly 500 words I encounter sloppy editing, I don’t buy that book. Why? Because sometimes the poor editing is enough to take me out of the story, and I wind up wanting to leave the author a review begging them to pull the book, and have it edited as a mercy to readers. I’m far less forgiving when I’m asked to pay for work that hasn’t seen a beta reader, much less an editor and proofreader. It’s unprofessional, and it’s sloppy to put a book out there, ask for my money, and give me something that looks like a first draft of a manuscript. I can read better here for free, thank you.
The preponderance of us in this thread write original work, which is why I’m sort of focusing on this. Self publishing is not a bad thing, but having a bad review or sharp concrit here is one thing. Having it happen on Amazon is crushing for authors who could be really good, with some editing and polishing.

Definitely! I’d say that not getting feedback will affect not only ur motivation but ur writing skills too. If u don’t get constructive feedback you will never know if u did anything wrong or if u overlooked something or how to improve. I have to say that getting a beta improved my writing skills a ton! (thanks clovey and tcr) Not only cuz they fixed ma shit but they pointed out my mistakes and I could learn from them.
But yeah not getting any feedback has done a number on my motivation and I am no longer in any rush to finish any of my work or post it. I thought about the hook in my 1st chapter but I have to say I think it is sufficient enough for the story itself. The only other option would be changing the story which is the road I refuse to travel down. It’s not worth it for me.
The only advice I can give is check out if the summary and the hook in ur 1st chapter is sufficient
I gotta say it’s really sad that a lot of readers just don’t care enough to leave reviews. I’m was often guilty of this myself but now I try to be more active with stories I really like.

My favourite reviews are the ones full of analysis. Where they ask questions or ponder events that occurred, or when they question motives or make guesses at what will happen after a cliffhanger. I love it when they say why they love or hate characters and who they think the chars should hook up with. Those are the reviews I go back to years later for a little motivation when I'm lacking. Of course, I love the concrit, the blatant praise, and the quick li'l, "plz rite more"s too.

Absolutely, lack of feedback makes me change stuff! Sometimes the change is as simple as pulling the story. Sometimes it gets more complicated as I attempt to read the minds of readers to figure out what the problem was. And seeing as how I’m a pretty shitty psychic, I end up changing a lot of things in a panic until the story is unrecognizable or just not what I wanted to begin with soooo either way it’s usually a terrible decision on my part lol. But doubt does that to me. Makes me make terrible decisions.

Absolutely, lack of feedback makes me change stuff! Sometimes the change is as simple as pulling the story. Sometimes it gets more complicated as I attempt to read the minds of readers to figure out what the problem was. And seeing as how I’m a pretty shitty psychic, I end up changing a lot of things in a panic until the story is unrecognizable or just not what I wanted to begin with soooo either way it’s usually a terrible decision on my part lol. But doubt does that to me. Makes me make terrible decisions.

Absolutely, lack of feedback makes me change stuff! Sometimes the change is as simple as pulling the story. Sometimes it gets more complicated as I attempt to read the minds of readers to figure out what the problem was. And seeing as how I’m a pretty shitty psychic, I end up changing a lot of things in a panic until the story is unrecognizable or just not what I wanted to begin with soooo either way it’s usually a terrible decision on my part lol. But doubt does that to me. Makes me make terrible decisions.

Absolutely, lack of feedback makes me change stuff! Sometimes the change is as simple as pulling the story. Sometimes it gets more complicated as I attempt to read the minds of readers to figure out what the problem was. And seeing as how I’m a pretty shitty psychic, I end up changing a lot of things in a panic until the story is unrecognizable or just not what I wanted to begin with soooo either way it’s usually a terrible decision on my part lol. But doubt does that to me. Makes me make terrible decisions.

Absolutely, lack of feedback makes me change stuff! Sometimes the change is as simple as pulling the story. Sometimes it gets more complicated as I attempt to read the minds of readers to figure out what the problem was. And seeing as how I’m a pretty shitty psychic, I end up changing a lot of things in a panic until the story is unrecognizable or just not what I wanted to begin with soooo either way it’s usually a terrible decision on my part lol. But doubt does that to me. Makes me make terrible decisions.