No, seriously, WHAT is good writing?

[Cuzosu]

The best betas are willing to work with you as an author and as a person. Me, I love playing sounding board to authors I like and respect, regardless of whether or not I'm editing their works. Giving ideas and plot twists to a writer, for me, is fun. I get too many of them for just one person to use, anyway, and sometimes it's a blast to have two writers take the same idea and write their own stories.

As for long chapters, well, one lady I beta for (when I have time, which, lately, I don't...) has been known to send me 10,000-20,000 word chapters. When I had daily internet access, my turnaround time for her was astonishing. I've been an avid reader since I first learned how to read...and have been known to read 800-1,000+ page books in 24 hours or less, without skimming anything. Out loud, of course, I'm not so quick, but I don't miss as much, either, and so when I'm editing anything, be it my own work or another's, I do a once-over silent and a once-over aloud. And when it's posted, I reread it again a time or three, and if it's another's work, I will add in my review that, "I missed this when I edited it. I'm sorry."

Really, beta work is give-and-take, and the best author-beta relationships are friendships with equality--and forgiveness and acceptance when things go wrong. After all, Murphy is everywhere....

As an author, there are a number of things I look for in people who help me with my stories. For example, Raymy will tell me if my editing needs work, but she also tells me what is and isn't having an impact on her and what she's looking forward to seeing in the future. Fei tells me what gets to her, what she's looking forward to, and, even though she's not good at editing English, lets me know if I've confused her with a lack of explanation or sudden missing characters that were there just a moment ago. Clara and Snow tell me how well I'm doing with characterization and world building (futuristic Musketeer-ish Gundam Wing AU is challenging, and I love it, though it takes so long to get through the scenes because it's all stuck in my head and still rather jumbled together), as well as what they're looking forward to seeing. All of these wonderful ladies have also played sounding board for me in one way or another, and when I needed help through rough patches or a handy stick of dynamite for an obstreperous wall or three, they have been there and offered ideas and support, and occasionally some literary nitroglycerin. Ain't friends wonderful?

....

Kindly ignore that last bit of atrocious grammar. Or laugh at it, if you'd prefer, I suppose. Sometimes my accent bleeds through, thankfully not as bad as my dad's. His would be completely incomprehensible to those who weren't either fluent in southern drawl or familiar with our family. *sigh* It's a wonder I don't need a beta for the accent alone....

[Gamecrazy500]

First of there is a difference between good writing and writing that interests particular readers. For example I hate the works of some historically famous authors. They are not bad writers they just chose topics that don't interest me or made a story that is to slow for my pace. Doesn't make them bad writers. After all many others adore there work.

The things that make me distinguish between good and bad writing (no matter the subject or pace) are flow and emotion. I have read many summaries that peaked my interest only to get into the story and be unable to finish due to it reading like an itinerary (list). The character does this that and the other thing goes to bed, gets up does that and this. No emotion and no natural flow as would happen in real life. By flow I mean the characters actions leading into future actions. Such as a character having a nightmare leading him into looking tired later in the story. For me when the subject and pace fit my personal style it is flow and emotion that draw me into or lack of that push me away from a story.

[Cuzosu]

First of there is a difference between good writing and writing that interests particular readers. For example I hate the works of some historically famous authors. They are not bad writers they just chose topics that don't interest me or made a story that is to slow for my pace. Doesn't make them bad writers. After all many others adore there work.

The things that make me distinguish between good and bad writing (no matter the subject or pace) are flow and emotion. I have read many summaries that peaked my interest only to get into the story and be unable to finish due to it reading like an itinerary (list). The character does this that and the other thing goes to bed, gets up does that and this. No emotion and no natural flow as would happen in real life. By flow I mean the characters actions leading into future actions. Such as a character having a nightmare leading him into looking tired later in the story. For me when the subject and pace fit my personal style it is flow and emotion that draw me into or lack of that push me away from a story.

A very good point. Or rather, a few excellent points.

Reader interest. Every story, long or short, has its own particular target group of readers. An author may not realize it, but most of these groups are relatively small, and so the feedback and quota of readers may not be as numerous as we all like to hope they might be. This is especially true in fanfiction with unusual pairings, for example.

Flow is a big deal, I agree. It can also be hard to pin down in a way that benefits the story, and I think that most authors will readily admit that stories--especially those which consume the author's mind with plot and scenes!--are quite capable of and often trend towards overdoing things. How often do we write something that grabs us by the throat and demands to have its own way? There are ways to deal with such stories and muses, of course: a good beta is a blessing, particularly with unruly stories. And stubbornness can go a long way, too. However, for me, I find that distraction is the best tactic.

Here, I can't give you that. What do you think about this, instead? Or, Ooh, look at that! What a neat idea! Why don't you steal it away before these other muses get close? I'll let you pounce on So-and-So later as a reward.

Yes, I occasionally have to bribe my muses. Surely I am not the only one?

[Kurahieiritr]

The things that make me distinguish between good and bad writing (no matter the subject or pace) are flow and emotion. I have read many summaries that peaked my interest only to get into the story and be unable to finish due to it reading like an itinerary (list). The character does this that and the other thing goes to bed, gets up does that and this. No emotion and no natural flow as would happen in real life. By flow I mean the characters actions leading into future actions. Such as a character having a nightmare leading him into looking tired later in the story. For me when the subject and pace fit my personal style it is flow and emotion that draw me into or lack of that push me away from a story.

A: All are excellent points that highlight the value of the reader's perspective about stories. I guess I take for granted that revision is for a reader's sole benefit, while some never consider the necessity of considering a reader's feelings at all. So yes, there does come a time when you must consider the audience over your personal feelings when slaving away at a keyboard to create a good story. The published writers in this world have that consideration at some point within their creative endeavor, or they would not be published and making an income from what they love doing.

I often see "write for myself instead of readers" commentaries in many threads throughout these forums. I see the logic of where such comments come from, because without having that element in the writing process, few writers could truly get anything completed. Without interest in the topic, writing an interesting story is impossible. Still, even if the story interests the writer, it is not a guarantee it will be liked by readers. Individual, yet overlapping tastes in topics and writing styles of the reading class is the whole reason "Genres" exist.

I make a point of thinking about readers whenever I am doing revisions because the reader is the most important part of the process of writing. Readers do create the final link in the process to promote a true case of give and take to crafting great reading tales. Without thinking about the readers responses to whatever is crafted, how can writers truly design tales that will keep their readers begging for the next chapter?

Within the publishing industry, readers are the only reason for the writer's existence. Fail to deliver, and the author loses money for the publishing house. So the pro level authors have to understand their reader demographics and write with readers specifically in mind. Knowing about this mandate in the publishing industry, I do my level best to revise for readers instead of for myself. The first raw draft is for my own drive to get the plot bunnies out of my skull. The revisions are solely geared to increase the amusement of those who may read my work. Perhaps it is a long neglected element in many hobby writers' arsenal of techniques.

Flow is a big deal, I agree. It can also be hard to pin down in a way that benefits the story, and I think that most authors will readily admit that stories--especially those which consume the author's mind with plot and scenes!--are quite capable of and often trend towards overdoing things. How often do we write something that grabs us by the throat and demands to have its own way? There are ways to deal with such stories and muses, of course: a good beta is a blessing, particularly with unruly stories. And stubbornness can go a long way, too. However, for me, I find that distraction is the best tactic.

Here, I can't give you that. What do you think about this, instead? Or, Ooh, look at that! What a neat idea! Why don't you steal it away before these other muses get close? I'll let you pounce on So-and-So later as a reward.

Yes, I occasionally have to bribe my muses. Surely I am not the only one?

A: When a story grabs me by the throat and the plot bunnies are beating me over the head, I simply pour it all into the mix, and then go back to revise heavily. Bribery has never worked with the fiends in my head so I do envy you the ability to side track or outright bribe your muses. So I find that I must open a second document and plunk every single off topic into the new doc for later contemplation because a few of the random non working items for the story I am working upon, prove themselves very handy for different stories. Of course this means I have tons of orphan snippets on file to develop into diverse stories over time. Each writer has a unique way of handling said overloads of ideals, and must find the best route to take to curb the imagination it seems. Some of the best tactics are the cached within the gossiped about eccentricities of famed authors over the centuries.