Yaoi...and Why It Isn't A Good Thing...

[TurtleHermit]

Now, my title was a little general, but I have a theory and why Yaoi is actually (sometimes, often times) a downfall on AFF.net. Now, I am utterly liberal and have a gay uncle and gay mothers which I love dearly and would never change. I am NOT homophobic by ANY stretch of the imagination however, I have in my five years of fanfiction reading on VARIOUS sites, how destructive Yaoi actually is.

Yaoi has become violently popular within the past few years, and with it has come a plethora of bad writing, bad pairings, and a BAD BAD BAD understanding of Male on Male relationships, contrived within the minds of straight women who NO NOTHING ABOUT THE SUBJECT THEY WRITE.

Why is it written? Same reason "men" have "fantasies" about two women. Women think it's hot. So they write it....without regard to it ACTUALLY FITTING the characters and their personalities....

Can't STAND stories which feature ACTIVELY STRAIGHT MEN...what?! What?! Butt-plugging another guy and usually an ENEMY, or FRIEND? It turns me off so badly to see that. And of course, I think the same of hetero fanfiction.

But this is the biggest problem I see with Yaoi....NOT, that it's most of the time COMPLETELY out of character, or how women write *sometimes* falsely about that in which they have no BIOLOGICAL or otherwise knowledge....but....

THAT IT IS RUINING ADULT FANFICTION SITES AND FILLING IT UP WITH YAOI WHEN A GOOD HETEROSEXUAL PAIRING CAN'T BE FOUND AMOUNGST THE BUTT FILLING AND COCKSUCKING!!!!

Yes....if there were plenty of both, not a peep would be heard from me... unfortunately that is not the case. I'll tell you...compare the hetero and the Yaoi on AFF for example...it might as well be called YaoiFF.net.

Whenever the rare happening in which I spy a "M/F" in a sea of M/M....yes, my sad little heart leaps and I think...."Oh! Yay! SOMEONE has realized woman-sex is much more adventerous and interesting, than the same ole same ole butt-piracy and licky-licky job of males!"

Oversexed, bad authors, screaming fanbrats of Yaoi....please, sit this one out....I want to live to see the day where women are useful literary fodder for the fanfic again....

Proceed to the Roasting, I dwell in fire.

Edited February 13, 2008 by TurtleHermit

[haruha_raharu]

A good filtering/organization system can get around the problem. Unfortunately, AFF's organization scheme is... not very well done. Also, the effective and consistent use of tags - I'm also sick of the sea of yaoi in AFF, but it doesn't annoy me so much when the authors actually tag it such so that I can avoid it. The use of tags really needs to be enforced, though, as there are cases when you can run into an unpleasant surprise with no warning from the summary.

[Guest Rosemarius]

now now, don't generalize. Generalizing is the worst error people can do when attacking someone/something.

I DO understand what you mean: there is A LOT of awful yaoi on AFF. BUT, there is also some good yaoi. You don't have to generalize everything as something bad. The solution isn't to utterly delete yaoi or to descourage it, but to help the yaoi writers understand WHY some things they are writing are total crap. That would be helpful, though difficult. I believe there is a topic in the Rants section about that.

Anyway, please people, don't generalize so much.

[DemonGoddess]

now now, don't generalize. Generalizing is the worst error people can do when attacking someone/something.

I DO understand what you mean: there is A LOT of awful yaoi on AFF. BUT, there is also some good yaoi. You don't have to generalize everything as something bad. The solution isn't to utterly delete yaoi or to descourage it, but to help the yaoi writers understand WHY some things they are writing are total crap. That would be helpful, though difficult. I believe there is a topic in the Rants section about that.

Anyway, please people, don't generalize so much.

Agree with what Rosemarius said.

@haruha_raharu

The disorganization overall in the archive is a real problem. We are certainly aware of it. We're also working on a way to fix it. However, that's not as easy as you might think. Once we have everything in place to start moving stories around in the archive (in a manner similar to the way we can move topics around in the forum), we will be doing exactly that. The new working structure is already hashed out, but we need the tools to implement all this. The tool creation for this IS in progress (among many other necessary things being done). You are looking at literally THOUSANDS of stories spread across 22 subdomains that must be gone through so they can be properly categorized. That's a whole lot of work ya know. Once that's all done, it'll be very easy for those of you who dislike slash/yaoi to avoid it entirely. Think about it. A category that says either slash or yaoi is one you'd never click on, if you don't like to read the subject matter. Pair specific categories would be listed below the pairing/story type, so that can be avoided entirely as well.

As to whether or not a particular user tags his/her stories in a way to make it so that one knows definitely it IS a same sex pair story, is on the user, not the archive program or the admins and mods. It is the user who inputs the data and makes the form choices when uploading after all.

@TurtleHermit

Obviously we do not restrict who uploads what, and in what quantities here, as to pairing type. THAT is up to the individual author. If the author chooses to write het, that is his or her choice. If the author chooses to write slash/yaoi that is ALSO his or her choice.

You will find in the archive subdomains, for the most part, they all do have a subcategory specifically for m/f or m/m or f/f etc. The only ones where you don't really see this are the subdomains such as cartoons, anime, and books which have literally hundreds of subcategories, aimed at specific titles. So in those, sure, you have to look in the description to see what the story is about more carefully.

As to the bad writing you mention? You find that in any category. On any fan fiction site.

[Juno]

I agree with Demongoddess; bad writing can happen anywhere, be it in yaoi or in heterosexual writing. In that case, it's more of the fault of the writer's style and experience than the "pairing" of the couple.

One thing that bothers me was a comment I saw on another thread talking about why people like yaoi. The person said they liked yaoi better than heterosexual couples because the male/male pairing showed "much deeper relationships" than those of heterosexual couples. That in itself is a generalization, because I think a deep relationship can happen in any pairing, no matter what the gender of the two people.

I agree that the vast flood of yaoi written by young women who have no concept of what they are writing about isn't exactly enjoyable, but that's no reason to just delete yaoi entirely. I personally don't like yaoi, but I do recognize its value to others.

[Lost_Soul]

ROTFLMFAO!!! TurtleHermit, reading your post was so funny to me it made my day! I do agree with you on the whole bad writing in yaoi but I also agree with Juno, Rosemarius, and DemonGoddess061. There are bad writing out there, you just have to weed out the bad ones to find the good ones, which I constantly do when it comes to reading anything! I like some yaoi but not all and I also like hetero but not all as well, it depends on how well it is written and put together. Though I see love to be shared with anyone and with whatever gender, I just like to see it well put together in a story and also written well too. I mean, I do agree that most yaoi's, ones that have pairings that are hardly unlikely to see together, much even fucking one another, and yet done, makes me squirm and hate it, so I just stop reading it and move on and find another story with a better pairing that would make sense. So, your stuck having to search better pairings that are more suitable to your tastes as well as a better written story on top of that, which is what I have to do. Give DemonGoddess061 and the mods and such on whoever is running the AFF site credit for running it; at least they are trying to make it easier for us readers to put certain stories in certain categories to make it easier for us to find certain ones we prefer to read, neh.

[Kanashii]

I agree also with the others have said.

Yaoi is a fetish out there, just like BDSM, D/s, or anything else.... This is what is good about AFF's "search" feature. You can type in what you are looking for (M/F, BDSM, etc) and then a bunch of stories will pop up. Good authors will put all the codes on their stories so that readers can find exactly what they want.

Yaoi just isn't my thing, don;t read it and don't write it. I am just an old school writer and so most of my parirings are M/F.

But Yaoi has become a HUGE phenomena on the web, and 98% of it's readers and writers are females. I have a dear, dear friend who is into Yaoi and it is all cool. I would never say anything bad about it.

But when I am searching for fics to read I use the search and check out the writers codes (and/or summary- for any codes not covered). I guess that makes me the odd one out since I write M/F for original work, Soprano's fanfic and HP fanfic. My stuff is just dark, has plot and often has alot of violence in it. We (M/F) pairings and original writers are out there. Just ise the search feature in the archives.

[NinjaGaijin]

About bad writing--

Sure, it's an eyesore, but I'm inclined to let them stay. To ban/delete stories on the basis of bad writing would be elitist, especially in a free, publish-for-yourself media like this. (Of course, it all goes back to the site owners' decision). At least we get targets to hurl flames at

Same goes with content restriction--I hope we can keep the policy of allowing every theme (even, say, snuff and gore).

[Squall-sama]

I think, glancing over everyone elses replies, mine has a little bit of eatch, but I'm still gonna say what I have to say on this.

First off, immediately trying to redeem yourself over a subject before you basj it doesn't make the fac that you're bashng it, any better. If you're going to complain about something--especially something as politcally racial as homosexuality--in whatever form--go all the way man, you might as well, you've already dug the hole--you need to sleep in it too.

Second, I think we also need to get a few of our facts straight here; 1) Yaoi or slash is written for the same reason as any other genre is written: for pleasure and to bring our fantasies to life. Like you said. Though it's not just written with the same excuse men give or just by women. Everyone is equally guilty of writing yaoi and slash, reguardless of sex.

2) It doesn't matter what genre (again) a story is written in. If the story sucks, it sucks. Period. I don't care if it's straight fiction, yaoi, yuri, porn, fluff, whatever; if someone can't write for the shit, the story is a failure. But there are also equally well written stories out there as well--you just have to look for them. Perhaps you've just been subjected to all the crap; try taking your time to actually sift through the shit that's out there. No matter if it's yaoi or not.

3) Once again, going back to that fantasy being fulfilled thing; gay, straight, bi, whatever, that charaters are put into situations that they would never normally be put into BECAUSE that would never happen. If it makes the author happy to see the straightest guy in the world molest the gayest guy ever--let them do it. I've seen worse--believe me. And if the pairing is awful, or the ideas are just completely illogical and impossible and awful to read, that once again goes back to the author just being a shitty writer. Or inexperienced, whatever.

4) Once again, I will be reiterating myself here: Women aren't the only yaoi authors here!! Quit pointing the finger at only one guilty party.

5) Are you even looking in the correct place for the stories you want to read? I mean, okay, I guess it's understandable that some people are idiots and are incapable of placing the proper tags on their fics so yaoi, yuri, straight and anything in between gets mixed on the man pages of the sections and sometimes into the actual designated space for specific themes... and there's really no way to avoide those, then of course you're going to run across stuff you don't want to read but... if you go into the properly designated section, i.e. yaoi, yuri, specific pairings, etc., then you really shouldn't have that kind of a problem--to the extent that you're ranting and raving about. Unless you're one of those people that close their eyes and randomly click then just happen to fall into the BDSM "butt-plugs" sections, read the fic anyway--even though it wasn't what you wanted in the first place--KEEP reading then proceed to bitch and rant about how awful the story was.... Well then I guess that would make more sense. After all, your hand must have been forced by the Yaoi Satan, right?

6) YAOI is not ruining fanfiction--bad writing and inproper planning and retarded 13 year olds are ruining fanfiction. Choose your words wisely here.

7) There is also a reason for why more yaoi and sexually explicit fic--of any nature-- can be found on here... One abbreviation: FF.net.

8) Once again, what section are you crawing around in? I know there are M/F fics on here, I've seen them. But that's because I'm adventurous and like to stray away from my precious yaoi every once in a while....

Finally, I may just be delusional here but... *checks* Nope, I'm defnitelly a chick... I write yaoi and het and I happen to think I'm pretty good at both. I'm a feminist and I believe women should have as much power and praise and men get. But that doesn't stop me from loving and writing yaoi.

I personally write yaoi and feel the way I do about it because I'm a woman and feel the way I do about feminism. I want to see men in the same situations as women; reverse the rolls and show that men can be just as victimized and "weak" as women are portreyed. Once agian, reiterating myself; people write their fantasies to bring them to life in a way they never could.

Do you know the exact reasoning and theory behind slash and yaoi in Japan? Women created it because they wanted to show relationships that were actually meaningful and filled with love--to show what a loving and comforting relationship--sexual or not could be like, unlike those that the men created where the women were always being raped and crying and always being tortured and the relationships were always onesided. And that, as with anything else popular bloomed into the fanfiction you see everywhere--there's good and bad.

Perhaps next time you wish to bash something like yaoi, you might want to be a little more objective and less personal about it, do your research, your arguments may hold more sway.

[TurtleHermit]

I think, glancing over everyone elses replies, mine has a little bit of eatch, but I'm still gonna say what I have to say on this.

First off, immediately trying to redeem yourself over a subject before you basj it doesn't make the fac that you're bashng it, any better. If you're going to complain about something--especially something as politcally racial as homosexuality--in whatever form--go all the way man, you might as well, you've already dug the hole--you need to sleep in it too.

Second, I think we also need to get a few of our facts straight here; 1) Yaoi or slash is written for the same reason as any other genre is written: for pleasure and to bring our fantasies to life. Like you said. Though it's not just written with the same excuse men give or just by women. Everyone is equally guilty of writing yaoi and slash, reguardless of sex.

2) It doesn't matter what genre (again) a story is written in. If the story sucks, it sucks. Period. I don't care if it's straight fiction, yaoi, yuri, porn, fluff, whatever; if someone can't write for the shit, the story is a failure. But there are also equally well written stories out there as well--you just have to look for them. Perhaps you've just been subjected to all the crap; try taking your time to actually sift through the shit that's out there. No matter if it's yaoi or not.

3) Once again, going back to that fantasy being fulfilled thing; gay, straight, bi, whatever, that charaters are put into situations that they would never normally be put into BECAUSE that would never happen. If it makes the author happy to see the straightest guy in the world molest the gayest guy ever--let them do it. I've seen worse--believe me. And if the pairing is awful, or the ideas are just completely illogical and impossible and awful to read, that once again goes back to the author just being a shitty writer. Or inexperienced, whatever.

4) Once again, I will be reiterating myself here: Women aren't the only yaoi authors here!! Quit pointing the finger at only one guilty party.

5) Are you even looking in the correct place for the stories you want to read? I mean, okay, I guess it's understandable that some people are idiots and are incapable of placing the proper tags on their fics so yaoi, yuri, straight and anything in between gets mixed on the man pages of the sections and sometimes into the actual designated space for specific themes... and there's really no way to avoide those, then of course you're going to run across stuff you don't want to read but... if you go into the properly designated section, i.e. yaoi, yuri, specific pairings, etc., then you really shouldn't have that kind of a problem--to the extent that you're ranting and raving about. Unless you're one of those people that close their eyes and randomly click then just happen to fall into the BDSM "butt-plugs" sections, read the fic anyway--even though it wasn't what you wanted in the first place--KEEP reading then proceed to bitch and rant about how awful the story was.... Well then I guess that would make more sense. After all, your hand must have been forced by the Yaoi Satan, right?

6) YAOI is not ruining fanfiction--bad writing and inproper planning and retarded 13 year olds are ruining fanfiction. Choose your words wisely here.

7) There is also a reason for why more yaoi and sexually explicit fic--of any nature-- can be found on here... One abbreviation: FF.net.

8) Once again, what section are you crawing around in? I know there are M/F fics on here, I've seen them. But that's because I'm adventurous and like to stray away from my precious yaoi every once in a while....

Finally, I may just be delusional here but... *checks* Nope, I'm defnitelly a chick... I write yaoi and het and I happen to think I'm pretty good at both. I'm a feminist and I believe women should have as much power and praise and men get. But that doesn't stop me from loving and writing yaoi.

I personally write yaoi and feel the way I do about it because I'm a woman and feel the way I do about feminism. I want to see men in the same situations as women; reverse the rolls and show that men can be just as victimized and "weak" as women are portreyed. Once agian, reiterating myself; people write their fantasies to bring them to life in a way they never could.

Do you know the exact reasoning and theory behind slash and yaoi in Japan? Women created it because they wanted to show relationships that were actually meaningful and filled with love--to show what a loving and comforting relationship--sexual or not could be like, unlike those that the men created where the women were always being raped and crying and always being tortured and the relationships were always onesided. And that, as with anything else popular bloomed into the fanfiction you see everywhere--there's good and bad.

Perhaps next time you wish to bash something like yaoi, you might want to be a little more objective and less personal about it, do your research, your arguments may hold more sway.

Quote number one: "If you're going to complain about something--especially something as politcally racial as homosexuality--in whatever form--go all the way man, you might as well, you've already dug the hole--you need to sleep in it too."

-Um, no. No, actually I do NOT have to "go all the way". I go as far as I MEAN, and you are certainly in NO position to tell me how far I should go. I simply wrote that I was not homophobic, I meant no more and no less. If you took it as more that is merely because you are volatile about the subject and wished to see more than there was.

Okay another quote to address, "Once again, going back to that fantasy being fulfilled thing; gay, straight, bi, whatever, that charaters are put into situations that they would never normally be put into BECAUSE that would never happen. If it makes the author happy to see the straightest guy in the world molest the gayest guy ever--let them do it. I've seen worse--believe me."

-This is a rant, this is not an almighty matter of "letting" anyone do ANYTHING. I think you are entirely, ENTIRELY too offensive. Much more so than, I. And after browsing your AF page, I see that you are almost entirely a Yaoi writer, proving to me that your touchiness runs deep in your writing, and that Yaoi is close to your heart, making your argument just as "uninformed" as MY rant against it....so, yeah.

And another, "Are you even looking in the correct place for the stories you want to read?"

-Well, yes. Yes, I am as a matter of fact. But not every section has a M/F, or Yaoi label as the good Mods have well informed all of us. I look, and I sift and I still come up Yaoi, Yaoi, Yaoi. And I simply find it extremely tedious. Yes, this was a RANT, but a mild one at that meant only to stimulate another prevalent consensus which MANY, may I repeat, MANY other people on AFF echo...the fact that Yaoi in many ways acts like a weed in which it multiplies to an extraordinary degree with no recession in sight, to the point in makes AFF every-day-life difficult. Gesh, you act like I had taken your Yaoi God and crucified him! My words were gentler, and didn't possess the condescending STING YOURS did.

Next? "KEEP reading then proceed to bitch and rant about how awful the story was."

-Now, now children. Use your words. No need for such mud flinging! And as for the rebuttal....I HAVE read Yaoi IN DEPTH for a prolonged amount of time, and have EVEN written a scene to enhance one of my mainly M/F works! So...do not presume like an ignorant, finger-pointing-prat that I do not *know* of Yaoi because I am not gungho about it....they have mindless soldiers for all that jazz. You.

Oh, a favorite quote! "Do you know the exact reasoning and theory behind slash and yaoi in Japan?"

- Sweetheart, do YOU know where Yaoi comes from? IT IS A FACT OF LIFE THAT MEN HAVE SLEPT WITH MEN SINCE THE BEGINNINGS OF TIME...."women" didn't "invent" it for any reason, it has always existed as part of the human sexuality. Yesh. And your stab at sensitivity-bootcamp has failed. Like I previously stated, I have WRITTEN Yaoi, not kissing, not touching, but full on sex, because I am not an ignoramus and I recognized that it would enchance my story in a way making those two characters heterosexual, just would not.

And the last quote, I'd like to adress: "Perhaps next time you wish to bash something like yaoi, you might want to be a little more objective and less personal about it, do your research, your arguments may hold more sway."

Your closing comment. How sweet you are. And, now I am sure you can fully believe that I KNOW what I am talking about, and the only reason that people like you feel free to become volatile about this is because you take yourself TOO SERIOUSLY...honestly. You. Take. Yourself. Too. Seriously. Ease up, realize this is a gentle rant on the fact that Yaoi stands as a mild obstacle in the way of my pleasure-viewing...

Everybody, try, try to step away from your platform and appreciate this for what it is....a rant. Put down the torch and pitchfork, I am no ogre and I shan't grind your bones into dust to make my bread! LMAO!

Game, set, and match!

Edited February 14, 2008 by TurtleHermit

[Lost_Soul]

Quote number one: "If you're going to complain about something--especially something as politcally racial as homosexuality--in whatever form--go all the way man, you might as well, you've already dug the hole--you need to sleep in it too."

-Um, no. No, actually I do NOT have to "go all the way". I go as far as I MEAN, and you are certainly in NO position to tell me how far I should go. I simply wrote that I was not homophobic, I meant no more and no less. If you took it as more that is merely because you are volatile about the subject and wished to see more than there was.

Okay another quote to address, "Once again, going back to that fantasy being fulfilled thing; gay, straight, bi, whatever, that charaters are put into situations that they would never normally be put into BECAUSE that would never happen. If it makes the author happy to see the straightest guy in the world molest the gayest guy ever--let them do it. I've seen worse--believe me."

-This is a rant, this is not an almighty matter of "letting" anyone do ANYTHING. I think you are entirely, ENTIRELY too offensive. Much more so than, I. And after browsing your AF page, I see that you are almost entirely a Yaoi writer, proving to me that your touchiness runs deep in your writing, and that Yaoi is close to your heart, making your argument just as "uninformed" as MY rant against it....so, yeah.

And another, "Are you even looking in the correct place for the stories you want to read?"

-Well, yes. Yes, I am as a matter of fact. But not every section has a M/F, or Yaoi label as the good Mods have well informed all of us. I look, and I sift and I still come up Yaoi, Yaoi, Yaoi. And I simply find it extremely tedious. Yes, this was a RANT, but a mild one at that meant only to stimulate another prevalent consensus which MANY, may I repeat, MANY other people on AFF echo...the fact that Yaoi in many ways acts like a weed in which it multiplies to an extraordinary degree with no recession in sight, to the point in makes AFF every-day-life difficult. Gesh, you act like I had taken your Yaoi God and crucified him! My words were gentler, and didn't possess the condescending STING YOURS did.

Next? "KEEP reading then proceed to bitch and rant about how awful the story was."

-Now, now children. Use your words. No need for such mud flinging! And as for the rebuttal....I HAVE read Yaoi IN DEPTH for a prolonged amount of time, and have EVEN written a scene to enhance one of my mainly M/F works! So...do not presume like an ignorant, finger-pointing-prat that I do not *know* of Yaoi because I am not gungho about it....they have mindless soldiers for all that jazz. You.

Oh, a favorite quote! "Do you know the exact reasoning and theory behind slash and yaoi in Japan?"

- Sweetheart, do YOU know where Yaoi comes from? IT IS A FACT OF LIFE THAT MEN HAVE SLEPT WITH MEN SINCE THE BEGINNINGS OF TIME...."women" didn't "invent" it for any reason, it has always existed as part of the human sexuality. Yesh. And your stab at sensitivity-bootcamp has failed. Like I previously stated, I have WRITTEN Yaoi, not kissing, not touching, but full on sex, because I am not an ignoramus and I recognized that it would enchance my story in a way making those two characters heterosexual, just would not.

And the last quote, I'd like to adress: "Perhaps next time you wish to bash something like yaoi, you might want to be a little more objective and less personal about it, do your research, your arguments may hold more sway."

Your closing comment. How sweet you are. And, now I am sure you can fully believe that I KNOW what I am talking about, and the only reason that people like you feel free to become volatile about this is because you take yourself TOO SERIOUSLY...honestly. You. Take. Yourself. Too. Seriously. Ease up, realize this is a gentle rant on the fact that Yaoi stands as a mild obstacle in the way of my pleasure-viewing...

Everybody, try, try to step away from your platform and appreciate this for what it is....a rant. Put down the torch and pitchfork, I am no ogre and I shan't grind your bones into dust to make my bread! LMAO!

Game, set, and match!

KUDOS my dear TurtleHermit! I shall agree with you there, nice comeback! XD I hope mine wasn't harsh... I don't think so... >.>;

[DemonGoddess]

Proceed to the Roasting, I dwell in fire.

THAT part of your original post said all I ever really needed to see about your intent. Someone ending an opening post in a topic like that is WANTING a flame war. I assure you, if it goes to that, I will not be nice. I am more than a little intolerant of someone starting flame wars.

I had hoped to see good discussion from this, and for the most part, there has been. So, retract the claws, and discuss this rationally.

@NinjaGaijin-

As far as I know, there is no intent to restrict content, as there never WAS content restriction. No reason to start it now, ya know? The only restriction I know about there is to properly tag, label, and rate the stories, so the readers have some idea of what they're looking at.

As to the bad fics published, we're not here to be elitist and say someone isn't good enough to put up their stuff for public consumption. That's up to the readers to tell the author in review, if you ask me. Think about this, how else are writers going to learn how to improve, if they don't put up the bad stuff too? They gotta start SOMEWHERE, right? So, no...don't see the stories we all know to be horrid going away. I'll keep doing like I always do with those, which is to skip 'em, thanks. Don't need to punish my eyeballs

[BrucesGirl]

Ok, logically, let's face it, TurtleHermit.

There will always be bad writers. I am of the firm opinion that if you publish a story, it should of your best work, Beta'd, polished, and prepared with patience. Shitty authors suck, but as a whole, unless it is posted in the rules that they have to fix grammar, words, etc... It won't weed all of them out. Bad authors can have perfect grammar and shitty plot lines. But that is also in the eye of the beholder. Where do you lay the line between good fics and bad fics?

I'm primarily a Yaoi and Yuri author just because I'm a homosexual female, and heterosexual relationships don't tickle my fancy. But I did notice that this was a male writing this thread and nothing has yet been mentioned about Yuri. Why is Yuri not as bad as Yaoi? Trust me - there are worse authors to be found in the Yuri section, but you didn't mention any of that. I think you are targeting a certain group of authors, and that is not a discussion. That's flame bait, and it's immature.

Again, that's my opinion. Take it as you will.

What it boils down to is that the administrators are in essence, rewriting the entire coding for AFF so that the program can handle the amount of stories that grow exponentially every day. There has never been a program written that has been able to handle the amount of stories that we have on AFF. Have you ever been on FF.net? Have you seen how incredibly messy their archives are? They don't even have the technical genius that AFF does. You should be grateful that we have Admin that listens to the authors instead of attacking them for voicing the issues like DarkAvenger attacked so many of us when we began to complain about the bugs that she never fixed.

There are thousands upon thousands of lines of coding to fix. THOUSANDS. It will take them months, and they don't get paid for this.

Be grateful.

Or leave AFF. Either way, it's no skin off my back.

[Guest MortiferLascivio]

I really think some people think waaay too hard about this stuff. Just live and let live. Don't let things like yaoi get to you; it'll totally ruin your fanfiction experience if you continue to LET it be a problem. Just skip over the ones you come by and be on your merry little way.

A lot of stories are yaoi out there, it's true. But if you removed all of them, that'd be taking quite a chunk out of the internet writing sites. I wouldn't be surprised if they collapsed on themselves after that.

I personally think OC's are annoying, and they tend to be hetero stories. But it wouldn't be right of me to say that all hetero stories are awful because of a few badly written OC's.

[Squall-sama]

And as DemonGoddess061 has pointed out and you so willingly offered. You wished for the voices of opinion. I gave mine. If you didn't want to hear what I had to say then you should never have left that little piece at the end of your original post.

You were taking everything I said out of context and using it back against me. Also, obviously if I'm a yaoi writer I think know about homosexuality and how long it's been running around. Furthermore, I was merely using why "YAOI"--specifically came about, since you seemed to use that specific word. You could have been more general and just said homosexual instead, but you chose to use yaoi. So I returned with an explaination behind that. I never even used the word "invent". I would be as arrogant to go that far.... You're the one putting words into my mouth now.

Also, just because I write mainly yaoi doesn't make me more defensve than the next person. For all you know someone who is gay could have come along and seen this and taken offense to it and said much the same things I did. Or not. Just because I write it doesn't mean my opion and words have any less value and thats basically what you're implying.

Secondly, now who's the name caller here. I never called you specifically a bitch or any other name, thankyouverymuch. So quit resorting to that malicious form of flaming, please.

Again, I am not taking myself too seriously, if fact, I was laughing most of the time I was writing my reply. You're the one thats taking far too much offence at what I had to say to defend something you obviously know nothing about.

The End.

[greenwizard]

*sighs* Saying that male/male pairings are all shit implies that my stories are all shit. When someone calls my stories bad I do take offense to it.

I am a bisexual male, and the only person I have willingly had sex with is a bisexual male. Hmmm... I wonder why I would write yaoi. And yes, I know that yaoi writters are mostly female. And yes, a lot of those writers aren't very good. I know this from actually reading them. If I start reading 20 stories, it's very likely that only 2 or 3 of those would've actually been any good. I can usually tell within the first few paragraphs. Then I do something amazing.... I go read another story to see if it's any good. I don't know what categories you read so I can't say much on whether writers in that category use tags; but I write and read Harry Potter. Authors in that category are usually pretty good about tags.

And I write the pairings that I do because that's what floats my boat so to speak. And if the pairing isn't something that would generally be found in the cannon universe, I use character traits to write some sort of explination. I take pride in my writting.

A lot of the problems you seem to be having have to do with the writers themselves, not the genre they write in. I've read some crap het stories too when I've been in a het mood. But AFF is open to anyone who has a fanfiction that they want to share with the public. I think that that is a very good thing. I think limiting what people can publish would kill the site.

[Guest Jaxxy]

About bad writing--

Sure, it's an eyesore, but I'm inclined to let them stay. To ban/delete stories on the basis of bad writing would be elitist, especially in a free, publish-for-yourself media like this. (Of course, it all goes back to the site owners' decision). At least we get targets to hurl flames at

Same goes with content restriction--I hope we can keep the policy of allowing every theme (even, say, snuff and gore).

Just got wind of this topic, and I haven't finished reading it yet, but I do need to say something here. I have no intention of starting any sort of "quality control" policies around here -- that would go completely against one of the biggest points for this site's creation.

AFF was started up in 2002 by a lady who was actually doing so in protest of other sites' disallowing of mature material, and their seemingly arbitrary and unfair "standards". Things were restricted and deleted left and right, and so, AFF was born, where adults could write the fanfiction they wished, bar none.

I'm not the founder, but I'm not going to change any of the philosophies Ayla held for this site. AFF is AFF, and I'm me -- if I want "my own site where I can killz of all the bad storys omg!!!", I'll go start one and do my thing, and let the AFF-ers enjoy their thing.

Sorry if I come off sounding angry about anything anyone's said -- I'm honestly not, I'm just passionate about this (and really glad I have been given an appropriate window in which to say all this). I really, really don't want anyone to worry about me molding AFF's place in the world to suit my (or anyone else's that comes along) personal preferences. AFF is what it is -- there are different sites for different tastes out there -- and I see myself as an equal-opportunity guardian of all the awfully written yaoi, het, and yuri we've already got here, as well as that which is to come.

[Kanashii]

Just got wind of this topic, and I haven't finished reading it yet, but I do need to say something here. I have no intention of starting any sort of "quality control" policies around here -- that would go completely against one of the biggest points for this site's creation.

Sorry if I come off sounding angry about anything anyone's said -- I'm honestly not, I'm just passionate about this (and really glad I have been given an appropriate window in which to say all this). I really, really don't want anyone to worry about me molding AFF's place in the world to suit my (or anyone else's that comes along) personal preferences. AFF is what it is -- there are different sites for different tastes out there -- and I see myself as a equal-opportunity guardian of all the awfully written yaoi, het, and yuri we've already got here, as well as that which is to come.

I agree wholeheartedly and this is what I always say in my posts where the M/F vs Yaoi or fanfic vs original topics come up. People, read what you LIKE, there is no "right or wrong".

If someone wants to write Yaoi- It's their right

If someone wants to write Snuff- It's their right

If someone wants to write -Lamia's and Naga's doing it <wink to Keith> IT'S THEIR RIGHT!

One persons "crap" is another persons "pure genius" and favorite story. Authors (all of us) have ego to some extent, in that we feel our writing our characters our stories are part of us. So of course no one wants flames or bad feelings or someone leaving a "OMG! this soooo sux!" for a review.

Again; whether a reader or an author...USE your codes. Use the search. You will find what you want. Personally I don't really notice that there are more M/M Harry Potter vs. M/F Harry Potter (or insert whatever category). If I see a story I check the codes and summary. If it doesn't look like my cuppa tea I leave it be.

As Jaxxy said, what makes AFF so wonderful is it doesn't "have" to be all about sex. Violence, drug use, gore, vore, snuff, fluff, puff, Lamia's, hetero, homo, trans, pansexual, bi, tri, furry's, blurries...ALL of it can exist on here.

But above all, the important thing is to at least respect someones right to write something OR ask a question. Who is to say what is bad writing and what isn't? Have I read some stories with poor grammar and syntax? Yes. Some I found had great plot lines or just hot scenes. Some didn't. But what is arousing to me, might bore Jaxxy to tears. If everyone was the same, what would be the point?

As a famous Vulcan once said: IDIC...Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

Eh?

[Guest Jaxxy]

Yes, this was a RANT

While we're on the subject, might I kindly remind everyone to post their rants in the Personal Rants section of this Forum? I believe it can be found in Aimless Babble.

I encourage open discussions, but (as I am learning -- forums are new to me, actually) an important point of properly maintaining a forum is that things need to go in their proper places. Otherwise, we exacerbate the same situation we're trying to overcome on the Archive side -- one of the very things that bothers you so, TurtleHermit. Things people write (Forum and Archive alike) keep ending up being mismarked or in the wrong spot, and as has been said, that can spoil others' experiences here.

We are honestly getting there, with the re-categorizations. Promise.

Thank you!

[TurtleHermit]

THAT part of your original post said all I ever really needed to see about your intent. Someone ending an opening post in a topic like that is WANTING a flame war. I assure you, if it goes to that, I will not be nice. I am more than a little intolerant of someone starting flame wars.

I had hoped to see good discussion from this, and for the most part, there has been. So, retract the claws, and discuss this rationally.

@NinjaGaijin-

As far as I know, there is no intent to restrict content, as there never WAS content restriction. No reason to start it now, ya know? The only restriction I know about there is to properly tag, label, and rate the stories, so the readers have some idea of what they're looking at.

As to the bad fics published, we're not here to be elitist and say someone isn't good enough to put up their stuff for public consumption. That's up to the readers to tell the author in review, if you ask me. Think about this, how else are writers going to learn how to improve, if they don't put up the bad stuff too? They gotta start SOMEWHERE, right? So, no...don't see the stories we all know to be horrid going away. I'll keep doing like I always do with those, which is to skip 'em, thanks. Don't need to punish my eyeballs

What apparently, no one seems to understand no matter how many times I say it....so, I shall put it in the dreaded caps lock....

I DO NOT DISLIKE YAOI, ONLY THE FACT THAT M/F IS LESS PROMINENT AND THEREFORE HARDER FOR ME TO LOCATE BECAUSE OF THE PLETHORA.

Now, I am NOT "targeting" as you like to call it, anything. It was a gripe, about not getting what I want when I want and how I want it....people do it all the time here, but because my gripe is about Yaoi, I am the one getting lambasted. Yuri, is rather a minority, and does NOT in any way, clog up pages upon pages. I like everything...but I especially like equality...and Yaoi is a dominatrix...

Oh? And everyone? Caps lock again...

I AM NOT CRITICIZING AFF....or the system. I think the system is okay. You all don't have to shove down my throat how great it is. I know. I go there. I EVEN participate in the Forum. You don't have to tell me in a very nationalistic way.... "Love it, or get the hell out"....

So a recap, becuase I HATE repeating myself...

1) I am NOT "targeting" Yaoi because of a special bias. I mentioned it because of it's prevalence.

2) I like the administration, the filing system, and AFF.net. You don't have to preach to the CHOIR!

[TurtleHermit]

-In response to DemonGoddess' light jab (because the quote tab didn't work for me) that I may have wanted or intended a FLAME WAR.....

....

My personality....I like humor, I don't think I should be sued. I honestly can't believe as a Mod that you have just pointed the finger at me with the underlying hint that I could be a rule-breaker/flame war inciter...and COMPLETELY DISMISS the other participants on this topic, that have been incredibly rude. Just as "inappropriate" as I if NOT more so...

When I said, "roast" I wasn't reffering to actual flames. I was thinking more along the lines of comedy terms.

As Dictionary.com says about the term "roast".....:

"A facetious ceremonial tribute, usually concluding a banquet, in which the guest of honor is both praised and good-naturedly insulted in a succession of speeches by friends and acquaintances."

I guess....I guess, I thought I might get ribbed, a few would dislike things, and others would agree. But that has not happened and if I had known this sort of attitude would be taken up against me, I wouldn't have offered my thoughts, honestly.

Edited February 15, 2008 by TurtleHermit

[TurtleHermit]

And as DemonGoddess061 has pointed out and you so willingly offered. You wished for the voices of opinion. I gave mine. If you didn't want to hear what I had to say then you should never have left that little piece at the end of your original post.

You were taking everything I said out of context and using it back against me. Also, obviously if I'm a yaoi writer I think know about homosexuality and how long it's been running around. Furthermore, I was merely using why "YAOI"--specifically came about, since you seemed to use that specific word. You could have been more general and just said homosexual instead, but you chose to use yaoi. So I returned with an explaination behind that. I never even used the word "invent". I would be as arrogant to go that far.... You're the one putting words into my mouth now.

Also, just because I write mainly yaoi doesn't make me more defensve than the next person. For all you know someone who is gay could have come along and seen this and taken offense to it and said much the same things I did. Or not. Just because I write it doesn't mean my opion and words have any less value and thats basically what you're implying.

Secondly, now who's the name caller here. I never called you specifically a bitch or any other name, thankyouverymuch. So quit resorting to that malicious form of flaming, please.

Again, I am not taking myself too seriously, if fact, I was laughing most of the time I was writing my reply. You're the one thats taking far too much offence at what I had to say to defend something you obviously know nothing about.

The End.

I have to point out, you did not in any universe sound like you might have been laughing while stating your "opinion" in that manner. What is laughable is, that you accuse ME of flames, though my comeback was just very, very precise, addressing all of your objectives and countering them with my own words.

I made a freakin SHREK joke at the end. Come on. I didn't flame you and my reply wasn't "Malicious" as you call it

...you know it, and I know it. It was just my exacting return to your punishing words. Don't mention the word "flame"...because, I didn't do it, and I don't think you did it. So please, don't be a meanie!!! And...BTW, I NEVER called you a name like "Bitch".

Personally sharing here, I think people (especially two women) calling each other "bitch" is one of the most degrading things, and I NEVER would participate or SUPPORT that sort of behavior.

[Guest MortiferLascivio]

TurtleHermit, you just need to let it go. You sound like you're throwing a hissy fit now, just because someone pointed out that it sounded like you wanted to start a flame war.

the "I dwell in fire" remark is what made me think you wanted people to flame you, not particularly the roasting part. If you were just joking, then okay. But it wasn't all that clear.

It's all good. Let's all just calm down.

[TurtleHermit]

TurtleHermit, you just need to let it go. You sound like you're throwing a hissy fit now, just because someone pointed out that it sounded like you wanted to start a flame war.

the "I dwell in fire" remark is what made me think you wanted people to flame you, not particularly the roasting part. If you were just joking, then okay. But it wasn't all that clear.

It's all good. Let's all just calm down.

Because I address almost every remark, doesn't mean I am throwing a hissy fit. I just like to talk to people. I'm a sociable creature, to tell you the truth. And I never wanted a flame war, I just liked to point out that DemonGoddess is close friends with SquallSama, and I think that her comment on me wanting a flame war because of a comedic term, while overlooking her friend's blatantly burning comments was a teensy bit fishy.

I'm like the littlest kid on the block, with lots of milk money.

Edited February 16, 2008 by TurtleHermit

[greenwizard]

In putting down yaoi, did you really not think that you would offend yaoi writters? Because seriously.... The whole reason for fanfiction is so that creative people can write about their favorite book, movie, ect in a way that THEY want it.

If you were just griping because you can't find very many good heterosexual stories, then that's what you should have said. I guess there just aren't many people who write in the categories that you read who like het pairings. The popularity of yaoi has nothing to do with it. People write what they like.