Naru/Sasu?! Yuck!

[NaturesTop]

Okay, I have been reading Yaoi for the past few years and I have finally decided to voice a question that has plagued me for all these years. Why is it that people complain about Sasuke being the Seme and Naruto being the uke, in the sense that Naruto is made to look too feminine. From the stories I’ve read where Naruto is the Seme, he is portrayed as this all knowing sexual deviant while Sasuke is a prideful, virginal, bastard waiting for someone (Naruto) to come ‘break down his walls’.

I think that some people need to realize that some people just can’t be bottoms. And that most bottoms aren’t little boys that have been physically or emotionally abused. This goes both ways. I think that Naruto needs to start being portrayed as more of an aggressive Uke and Sasuke needs to be a more accepting Seme.

Personally my body and mind just don’t respond when reading even the best Naru/Sasu fics. The characters always seems too OOC. In the series Naruto is portrayed as an exuberant child who is constantly trying to save his friends, and Sasuke is a withdrawn emo kid with his own problems. While they both share pasts that are less than pleasant they grow up to be essentially the same as their younger counterpoints. Naruto continues to be attached to rescuing Sasuke (It seems to be almost an obsession) and although Sasuke is a bastard working for the bad guy, we all know (essentially) whose side he’s going to go to in the end. Perhaps I have some deep seeded problem that just refuses to let me see the reality of the greatness of Naru/Sasu fics.

Honestly it makes me sick. Not in that I hate everyone who writes those stories or whatever, but just in the sense that I can’t stand the sight of it or its implications. It baffles me when Sasuke is shown as a whimpering little Uke who suddenly develops emotions and a ‘daddy’ complex.

[Guest Serenanna]

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This opinion is coming from a het fan, mind you, so feel free to disregard it. I just can't help it because you're practically waving a red flag with all the reasons why I hate yaoi fandom and even avoid series where such relationships is canon. And why's that?

Well, there's the rampant sterotyping and practice trying to ram character into perfect molds, which I don't believe it. I know Seme/Uke is supposed to be the yaoi thing, but it's artificial to me. Real men do not act like that 100% of the time. Real people, even women, don't go through relationships like that without valid motivations. Trying to put pre-existing characters with histories and personalities into that mold only makes it more artificial. Attempting to pair characters that are supposed to be at each others throats (Uchihacest) is even worse without very, very good reasoning and writing to back it up. It may work for AU fics, but, damnit if I ever find an AU fic done right!

And there's the syndrome to forgo all attempts at protraying masculinity all together. These are supposed to be men, boys, males. Yes, they can go through emotions, but like all humans, men have different ways of coping with it than women through agression, bottling it up, or burying it in denial. I've only ever see my brother cry maybe once, and that was at a funeral. Why cannot yaoi authors understand this about characters that are definitively masculine? What is the appeal in a 'weepy uke' anyway?

There's also the attitude of many fans (not being specific) that said pairing it the only OTP possible, and anything else is heresy, even if it's a canon pairing. The FMA fandom especially is guilty of this with the endless hint of Ed/Win and Roy/Riza in the manga while the supporters of Ed/Roy or Elricest (::shudder: refuse to acknowledge it's existence, cranking out fic after fic.

And there's the utter hatred among yaoi fans for the significance of any female characters. (I'm looking at you, Gundam Wing) I just don't understand it.

Maybe I just don't understand yaoi fans in general.

The way I see it, in a relationship, sexual or not, who's on top and who isn't shouldn't matter. It shouldn't be the end all be all of existence. What should matter most is the story itself, and if it is even remotely believable. If it isn't believable and worth reading without the promise of eventual sex, then what's the point?

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For further reference on Naruto and Sasuke's relationship specifically, I posted my own anaylsis based on canon. I'm also very, very tempted to write and post a oneshot parody in head depicting a very canon take on said pairing regardless of order.

Just . . . arrgh. ::headdesk::

Sere

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

I'm with Sere on the whole "it doesn't matter" deal. Unlike Sere, however, I am an avid slash reader/writer. The problem with "yaoi" (I'm naming yaoi specifically) is that it's pretty formula. There are a handful of tragically overused character archetypes and just ridiculous situations that piss me off. When these templates are applied to preexisting characters and situations, it falls flat.

I think the big problem with what you're talking about is that people keep applying Naruto and Sasuke to those archetypes. Really, it doesn't work. No matter how you toss it, Naruto will never be a simpering little girl and Sasuke will never be the experienced one who takes Naruto under his wing. Or the other way around.

As Sere said, in real homosexual relationships, stuff like that doesn't matter. While there are some people who strictly like to be on the "bottom" (or the one who takes, so to speak) and some who strictly like to be on "top" (give), there are still others who will switch on a whim. Why? Various reasons. A friend of mine only "bottomed" for guys he invested real emotional attachments to because those where the only guys who he trusted to not intentionally physically hurt him (a very real concern when your talking about anal sex. That is NOT meant for that.)

I had another friend who strictly likes to bottom because he really loves to take it up the ask. Not because he's a "fem" (which, he really isn't) or anything, just because it felt good. THAT's what people should be thinking about when considering who's on top, not who's more "masculine" or whatnot. Just because a guy's built like a tank, it doesn't mean he's not into taking a penis in the ass.

[StoryJunkie]

hm.

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

hm.

More eloquent words never spoken.

[tovah]

I personally prefer Sasuke/Naruto but I find it fun to occasionally read Sasuke as uke. I think it all depends on the writer and if they can make the characters believable.

Edited April 27, 2007 by tovah

[questofdreams]

As much of a yaoi fan I am, I can sympathize with SOME of the yaoi haters (the reasonable ones, at least) b/c many of the reasons they hate yaoi are also the gripes I have with the yaoi fandom as a whole. I can't stand it when people throw Naruto and Sasuke into carbon-copy seme/uke roles because it's just NOT who they are!

Yes, they are MEN. Perhaps even more importantly, they are NINJAS. They will kick ass and break bones and shove each other into solid rock walls. Naruto will NEVER be a weepy uke no matter HOW big and blue his eyes are!! Sasuke would probably rip off his own fingernails before ever whispering sweet words to his Naru-chan (*shudders in horror at the word 'Naru-chan'* btw, STOP using the word Naru-chan, people!!).

I love yaoi and I love Naruto and Sasuke as a pairing. In fact, dare I say it, they are my otp. But that doesn't mean they can't be IN CHARACTER as well (as much as they could possibly be b/c in ALL fanfiction--het, yaoi or gen--characters will never be completely IC b/c it's not canon).

[Elvy]

I'm not a Naruto fan by any measure, but my friends are so I see a few clips here and there and whatnot. From my perspective I would classify both characters' personalities as fairly 'seme' in nature. It is possible to write fics that are Seme / Seme...and usually they're the most interesting to read since both utlimately can claw and bite to be the dominate one. I can easily see the SasuNaru shipping be done that way.

Then it also depends on the situation at hand. Even in the series itself there are times and circumstances when one becomes "more vulnerable" than the other (and I don't mean this in a "pussy-whipped" manner either) and it's possible for one to become temporarily more dominant than the other. I think Naruto's more likely to be a crybaby in the sense that his temperment and emotional ranges are more diverse than Sasuke. This opens up the fact that Naruto can't control his emotions and is "more likely" to become unsteady at a greater frequency than Sasuke (who angsts mostly to himself). I base this off of watching about 10 episodes randomly at completely different intervals of the seasons. But quite frankly I find them equally capable of being dominant at the same time without finding it too difficult to ship them without turning one into a simpering idiot.

----

To address another thing that's recently come into the topic. I am part of the "Oh god, why is it always about YAOI!?" groupie. I indulge in a little yaoi from time to time, but I like my het pairings better and I'm only frustrated with the rabid yaoi fandom in the sense that they make absolutely no freakin' sense in ANY of their arguements (and they're usually the most obnoxious to deal with). Most of the ones I've come across are girls who (in real life) want to become boys just so that they can fuck other boys. *clonks head* HELLO! That's why you were made a GIRL! So that you can still fuck the other boys! Enjoy what genetics gave you! Don't attempt to go down the road of being a transgender for the reason being that you want to live out your gay anime fantasies.

They also tend to literally FREAK OUT when anyone mentions a het pairing in their favorite anime series. To the point where they flame, troll and wank like hella whoa to promote their illogical causes. Saying that any fic or story that "isn't guy on guy action is bad and sucks royal ass" has finally burned my last string of sanity with the yaoi fangirls to the point where I get murderous urges when I encounter them at conventions (Must restrain the Fist of Death).

I don't mind yaoi fans and fic writers, the sane ones are cool and it's fun to chill out and geek with them from time to time. It's just the extreme folks that drive me absolutely nutty.

[Lady Laran]

As a writer of yaoi, I somewhat agree. The uke always seems to have a either a feminine appeal or is overly youthful. I see this a lot in the Yugioh yaoi section as well.

To be honest, I have a hard time seeing a Sasuke/Naruto pairing simply because Sasuke always seems so closed off. Albeit, I am new to the fandom and am learning the characters as I collect the manga.

Although, I have to somewhat disagree on the pervy level of Naruto. Think about it, his version of henge jutsu - sexy no jutsu - what 11/12 year old thinks of that?!

lol

[Claire]

Here, here Elvy! XD

I'm a fanfiction writer myself, currently obsessed with Naruto and although I used to love het pairings at first I am starting to develop a taste for yaoi. Not an obsession, mind you but I find that yaoi manga, well most of the ones I've read are alot more romantic than het manga, which is usually just wham, bam, thank you ma'am.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are plenty of het doujin and manga that cater to the romantic...actually, guys tend to read het so that's probably why it's so raw while yaoi is marketed to women, that's why it's so soft and romantic. I've actually seen some 'raw' male/male comics / manga and it was like watching a gay porno on paper >.<

I like romantic stories, it doesn't have to have a deep, convoluted plot or can be a one-shot, but dammit I want to know WHY these people are dong the nasty. One-night stand, one-shots just don't cut it.

But, back on topic, I don't mind Sasuke/Naruto/Sasuke stories. I'm not a fan of that pairing and tend to avoid reading most of them because it feels over-rated and that I've been there done that. (Is it only Sasuke/Naruto fics that get the most reviews?)

I've read some wonderful Sasuke/Naruto fics though and the best are the ones where, even though Naruto is the 'bottom' he's not a simpering uke. It's funny sometimes when Naruto fights to get on top though XD

[Vixie-Chan]

Well, I hate Steriotypes. Serously guys, don't jump on the band wagon and be orginal. That's what I try to do when I write a sasu/naru/sasu story. I base emotions on who tops and who don't, I go with the flow of the story. Like with Redemption, Sasuke will most likely Bottom until Naruto trusts him more. but that's not gonna happen to way later in the story. Anyway, I'm a Yaoi Fan Girl but im not Obssessed. I read Het too (if its good). I don't like girly girls so naturally im not gonna like a girly guy. Its just to wierd for my tastes. What writers got to remember is that A) Its a story YOU are writing, be original. B) Don't fall for steriotypes its like a hole, easy to get into but damn hard to climb out of. C) Mix it up a bit. Add your own personality into your writing and try to keep the Characters IN character. Well that's all I gotta say, good luck and have fun!

Edited December 11, 2007 by Vixie-Chan

[KuraiNeko]

I personally prefer Sasuke/Naruto but I find it fun to occasionally read Sasuke as uke. I think it all depends on the writer and if they can make the characters believable.

I agree this statement wholeheartedly! you cant just dive into writing a fanfic you have to know the charectors and not go to far OOC.

my opinion...

"in regards to the charectors backstories and friendships a yaoi fanfic can be born. you just have to respect the origional writers idea and not go too far."

I myself have seen a few poorly written OOC Sasu/Naru fics. and I myself have written my fair share. *laughs* I learned to look back and rewrite when such things happen or future projects will turn out sloppy.

believable is the key word here, and a fan fic isnt a fan fic if you arent devoted to the origional works.

[SasUke PepSi aDvErTiZeMeNt]

Actually it's a problem with both NaruSasu and SasuNaru to me. For SasuNaru, Sasuke is usually just well him or overly OOC as Naruto would be too girly. NaruSasu is the same thing as you said but there is some stories that I have read(and written myself) where they are usually both equal. I don't really care who's on top but it depends on how you set the mood of the story to lean towards. It goes beyond NaruSasu pairings! It's almost all seme/uke labeled pairing that are causing this problem. So what exactly is the deal with over characterizing these two anime characters and making them what there not. Stick to the facts even if you are writing an AU story. I know that for a fact people are baised in these types of things and tend not to listen but I'm just writing this to prove my point it's bad either side. SasuNaru has just as much with this issue as NaruSasu does.

Pepsi-chan AKA Allison

[Guest animehead]

I guess I'll throw my reply in here.

I honestly don't care who is topping as long as the story is entertaining. I've written SasuNaru as well as NaruSasu. When I first started reading Naruto yaoi, I read more SasuNaru because the first fic that I read was SasuNaru and I liked it. I never really thought about NaruSasu until I was asked to write NaruSasu, which I did and it ended up being my most popular story. Go figure. LOL

But, yeah. I don't really care either way. As long as the story is interesting and keeps my attention it doesn't matter to me. I think that a good writter can pull of almost anything.

[allthethingsyourefusetosay]

The thing about SasuNaru and other yaoi writers is this many of them, not all, are female and the thing about girls is that we are raised with the mentality of set gender roles that are hard for some of us to break out of so when we write the gender role subconciously are transfered onto the characters. And yeah it sucks for the readers because then the characters become mere shards of their actual seleves or cookie cutouts ofwhat the perfect seme or uke should be in the writers mind. That's the way it is for most writers the best advice I can give anyone is to just stick it out with their favorite pairing and eventually you'll find one or two gems out there done by spectacular writers and betas. I wish I coulld reccomend some stories for you to read right now but I haven't gotten to my favorite Naruto stories list on my site yet , but they are out there. Also you just have to remeber its not real just something to take you away from reality for a little while and if it gets to be to horrible to continue on just right your own fic and lead by example because I know some writers are just going on what a semme and what a uke should be based on what they've read in other fanfics.

[allthethingsyourefusetosay]

I just found a great NaruSasu story that has none of the crap that you were talking about earlier maybe you've read it already its d/s by hestia

[GOTD]

Bah, I agree for the most part that yaoi fics trying to bring out this relationship do end up, most of the time, bringing them out of character. Someone above me said (or below me... and cant remember their name) that it's probably a good idea if most writers took into consideration that they are NINJA'S! They're supposed to be rough, harsh, they kill if they have to, and they like to fight, and they grew up in a harsh world... I am a huge fan of yaoi and I'll admit that I love Naruto as an Uke... And I guess I've tagged along for this ride as well. But for the most part, we have to admit that this is FANFICTION, and thats what it's all about. Having our fave characters live out what WE want them to do... It wouldn't be possible, agreed, but if it rocks your world for an hour or so, why not?

Also, I think it has alot to do with the fact that MOST of the yaoi writers are WOMEN, at least on this stie, and I think that has a lot to do with the issue.... *cough cough* So yeah, I agree, Sasuke would never speak sweet nothings into Sasuke's ear... and Naruto would never "suffer" immensly because Sasuke decided to fuck someone else and left him for a prettier boy. Whatever. The point is to get kicks out of what you write... make your fantasies a reality in your fiction... make what you want to see happen... and if you're any good at it, ha, get reviews, right?

Bah... rant over! Oh, and I'm starting to LIKE Sakura... lol, for whoever said that almost all yaoi fans hate the girls... But you have to admit, she use to be completely USELESSSSSS!

[Guest chocolat]

I don't really like either of them portrayed as "girly". For these guys, I think seke/seke works best, meaning, they both switch around with who is top or bottom. But if I have to choose one, I would pick Naruto as seme and Sasuke as uke. Yes, Sasuke can be a bastard, but I just see Naruto as more agressive than him. I seriously hate the extrem uke Naruto that may as well just be a girl (but I don't like it when character's genders are switched either...)

Not all yaoi fan girls hate the female characters lol. But I think Sakura is easily hated by the Naruto/Sasuke fans because she just gets in the way of things! Now, I hate her when she's all "Sasuke-kun! blah blah blah. Shut up Naruto you baka, I'm talking to Sasuke!" But she isn't always like that and I am a fan of her when she is older and less stupid.

[Guest MortiferLascivio]

I'm a NaruSasu fan, just because that's how I prefer it. I don't hate SasuNaru because well, that's someones thing. I won't bash it and say how uncharacteristic it might be or whatever. This is one thing I don't like about the yaoi/slash fandom - It's how fans for pairings like Sasuke and Naruto getting all split up because one side prefers Sasuke as uke and the other side prefers him as seme. Drawing a line like that in an otherwise great fandom can really cause problems.

Personally, I think the quality of NaruSasu overrides the amount of SasuNaru fics there are. The writers just seem better. That's my opinion of course. SasuNaru seems to be more popular, but NaruSasu seems to have better quality fics.

It's just extremely odd how some fandoms, like the yaoi fandom, get all split up for something like this. Just go on your way and stop fretting over who writes and likes what. It would be incredibly boring if there was only one side to each pairing or fandom.

(I also can't help but find it somewhat frightening that anyone would say they "hate" something that has to do with fictional characters.)

[Zero Falcon]

If the author can make it believeable, it works, but the problem is that people aren't open minded enough for pairings...Even if they are crack.

But thats no reason for the author to write bad, like me.

Basically it comes down to this how well the author knows the character and can get inside there heads.

[Caira]

I don't really like either of them portrayed as "girly". For these guys, I think seke/seke works best, meaning, they both switch around with who is top or bottom. But if I have to choose one, I would pick Naruto as seme and Sasuke as uke. Yes, Sasuke can be a bastard, but I just see Naruto as more agressive than him. I seriously hate the extrem uke Naruto that may as well just be a girl (but I don't like it when character's genders are switched either...)

Not all yaoi fan girls hate the female characters lol. But I think Sakura is easily hated by the Naruto/Sasuke fans because she just gets in the way of things! Now, I hate her when she's all "Sasuke-kun! blah blah blah. Shut up Naruto you baka, I'm talking to Sasuke!" But she isn't always like that and I am a fan of her when she is older and less stupid.

I totaly agree! When I first started reading sasu/naru I ,while loving it, didn't really care who tops. I personally love when they switch around.

[Guest 2much4dis]

I was just ganna let this topic sit and all, but i had to say something being that this is like a five year old conflict. Like everyones saying it doesn't matter is pretty much my piont; but more off to the fact that OOC characters means the author choice to do that to help the character fit in his/her story. personally, they can do who ever the hell the get their hands on so long as the story was good, and the sex scene was good, and fit.

[Linku]

It really all comes down to the reader's preferences really. Who a person would like to see as the seme and uke.

I guess I would run more along the stereotypical line of the shorter and more hyperactive of the pair as the uke just because I like that type of character as the submissive one. In this case, my preference would be Naruto as the bottom and Sasuke to be the top just cause I can easily see the pairing going that way. I personally love the challenge of trying to keep the character 'in character' as much as possible as I'm writing a fanfic though. Though but fun

But if the story is well written though, I might make an exception and read a SasuNaru

[Guest Lawliet]

I don't really care either way to be honest. As long as the story has a good plot, believability and writing in general, then I'm cool. Anyway, for anyone who wants believable, non-OOC Naruto and Sasuke relationship and friendship fanfiction I found a community on Fanfiction.net for this express purpose. Here's the URL:

www.fanfiction.net/community/Brothers_of_the_Leaf/1329/99/0/1/

I guess it doesn't really matter if you disagree whether it's good or not - it's the author's opinion. And most people should know by now it is impossible to make everyone agree on a single thing, simply because of that damned-thrice-to-hell-and-back thing called 'perspective'. Phhhffft...

[Guest Lawliet]

Also - to add to my earlier post - I just wanted to say that the reason you can't find many believable narusasunaru fanfiction these days is because most archives are arranged so the fanfictions with the most recent posts come up nearest the beginning of the archive. Because of this and most fans' tendency to repetitively add on 'just a little more moe' to everything shoves the rather well-written, old ones into the back of the archives, leaving any searchers for the fanfictions to sift through all the cheep, useless knock-offs of the classics at the front. And because most people read the fanfictions to get lost in them, they just don't have the patience to spend hours shifting through hundreds of pages of agonizing, eye-wateringly bad fanfictions because they "want their yaoi now, dammit!".