"Biased" Third Person Omniscient?

[Shadowknight12]

So, I've noticed that there seems to be two approaches to the famous Third Person Omniscient style. There's the cold, clinical prose, with unloaded adjectives and pristine neutrality; and the emotional, biased, loaded prose that takes sides on issues. One example would be "The house was surrounded by a thick pine forest, something Adrian immediately noticed as he drove into the estate. The weather was cold and cloudy, with a threat of snow looming in the air, and his car was often buffeted by sudden gales." versus "The foreboding house was surrounded by a dark, chilling pine forest, something poor Adrian immediately noticed as he carefully drove into the estate. The foul weather was unbearably cold and cloudy, with snow merely biding its time, and his beloved car was constantly buffeted by sudden, malevolent gales."

I think the examples are fairly self-explanatory, but in case it's not clear, one style tries to avoid influencing the reader one way or another, while the other attempts to convince the reader to see things a certain way.

What style do you use? Do you think that either one is better than the other? Why? Do you think each has its own applicability? Do you think that the 'biased' TPO is better at gripping the reader or is it annoying and presumptuous? What are your thoughts on them?

Personally, I prefer to leave the 'biased' TPO for whenever I'm taking sides in a story. If I'm telling the story from one of the character's PoV and I believe it would enhance the narration, I make the prose take on the character's personality. He doesn't see the girl of his dreams as 'attractive' he sees her as 'the only person in the room worth looking, beautiful, sensual, dripping sex appeal with every step' and the like. When I want to leave the reader in the dark about certain characters, or I don't want to favour one over the other, I use the clinical one. I do kind of regret that the 'unbiased' TPO is harder to write interestingly, since when you put yourself in a character's mind, words just flow out; but when you have to remain detached and objective, it's hard to be verbose without being resorting to subjectivity.

So, like the internet often says: Discuss.

[Asexual Biped]

I think both the biased and un-biased TPOs have their use. I also think you've already covered most of my bases. XD

To me, the biased version is used with specific types of stories, such as horror or possibly suspense. Going with your examples, the clinical version of the sentence isn't nearly as interesting or catchy if used in a situation where you'd expect the author to use loaded adjectives and adverbs.

Biased is also good for different view points. When I write third person POV in stories, I usually write it in the mind-set of the person I'm directly narrating, if that makes ANY sense. Kind of like your description with the guy viewing his true love. A scene like that wouldn't be as entertaining without the extra wording.

Now that I think about it, I don't think I use the clinical TPO. That's probably because most of what I write is action-y or steamy and wouldn't be as good without the biased POV.

Also, I don't think of the 'biased' POV as taking sides. I tend to write more than one third person POV in stories for different characters as I jump from each. That's actually why I like third person POV; you can jump from each characters' thoughts on the situation you've created instead of relying on one perspective, like in first person POV.

I hope I got my point across. I'm slightly confused to what I was saying now. ^^;

[Shadowknight12]

You raise a very interesting point. I personally struggle with point of view, both reading and writing it. I can only follow either a disembodied, unbiased PoV (that is, a narrator who describes things as they are, without embellishing), or get behind a character's PoV. When the author starts switching between several characters or worse, between a disembodied PoV and that of other characters, I just get confused. I want to note that I refer to when this happens within the same chapter. If a story is told with a different PoV every chapter, that's perfectly fine, I can follow. But when the writers starts whoring it up with the PoV, I get so lost I could outdo Josh Holloway. And by extension, if I can't even read this sort of thing, I can much less hope to write it.

So you'll understand that when I read what you said "I tend to write more than one third person POV in stories for different characters as I jump from each", Asexual Biped, I go "What? How? How does that work?" since it's hard to wrap my head around it. I mean, unless you're very, very unsubtle with your writing (that is, clearly letting the reader know when you're switching PoV), I'll just get lost.

[Asexual Biped]

You raise a very interesting point. I personally struggle with point of view, both reading and writing it. I can only follow either a disembodied, unbiased PoV (that is, a narrator who describes things as they are, without embellishing), or get behind a character's PoV. When the author starts switching between several characters or worse, between a disembodied PoV and that of other characters, I just get confused. I want to note that I refer to when this happens within the same chapter. If a story is told with a different PoV every chapter, that's perfectly fine, I can follow. But when the writers starts whoring it up with the PoV, I get so lost I could outdo Josh Holloway. And by extension, if I can't even read this sort of thing, I can much less hope to write it.

So you'll understand that when I read what you said "I tend to write more than one third person POV in stories for different characters as I jump from each", Asexual Biped, I go "What? How? How does that work?" since it's hard to wrap my head around it. I mean, unless you're very, very unsubtle with your writing (that is, clearly letting the reader know when you're switching PoV), I'll just get lost.

Oh, I know what you mean! I hate when I see writers jump from POV to POV within a chapter! That's actually the reason why I stop reading so many potential stories on this site; the author made EVERYTHING known about the situation by jumping from every character's POV within the same chapter. It's almost like we're God because we know everything everyone is thinking about what's going on at that exact moment. I'd rather know what one person was thinking for one chapter, then switch to someone else.

I realize that I wasn't very clear when I said I jump POVs. What I mean is that I'll stay for either a chapter, or most of a chapter, in one character's biased POV, then g to someone else, either with a page break or a brand new chapter.

I think my only exception to the page break thing is when I kill off a character and just begin writing from the closest character's POV.

I hope this helped. :]

[FairySlayer]

It's all a matter of degrees. If the narrator didn't have at least a teensy bit of bias then the story runs the risk of becoming a technical paper.

The standard Colonial styled dwelling was centered among a miscellaneously arranged grouping of

pinus strobus P. lambertiana, pinue strobus P. wallichiana, et cetera,

with an average density of .092 trees per square foot (trunk area at ground level) and an apparent standard deviation of 473% within the viewing area of the dwelling. The

homo sapiens

identified as 'Adrien' detected the presence of the aforementioned trees, which greatly reduced the number of photons reaching his fovea; he did so while simultaneously approaching said dwelling via use of an unspecified type of motorcar. The meteorological conditions were unfavorable due to the presence of nimbostratus clouds, and air vortices were applying between twenty and eighty pounds per square foot of force against different parts of his vehicle at random intervals.

Now imagine a sex scene described completely with angles, lengths/depths, volumes, etc.

To be serious though, I much prefer Shadowknight12's first example because it conveys the mood well without the overkill of the second, though I understand that was exaggerated to make your point clear. However, you could sneak in bias by providing "evidence" for each of the feelings mentioned in the second. (See On Writing by Stephen King for a terrific explanation.)

Actually, I try hard to incorporate descriptions of physical cues and other actions instead of just using adjectives in my writing. (I first recognized it in a Sailor Moon fanfic about a decade ago.) It lets you express the feelings and perhaps even the thoughts of the characters without jumping straight into any character's mind. (This strays in to the realm of "direction" and visual media, but hopefully it's still on-topic.)

Of course, there is still selective bias based on what you choose to show or have said. (Think news, political shows and ads, etc. for the most egregious examples.)

Having just finished my first first-person story — a fairly naive person — using the observable was extremely important, though I had plenty of play room using the character's thoughts to fill in many blanks.

In another recent story I probably used more bias with TPO, mostly through character's thoughts. I tried to stick to a hierarchy of whose mind to invade depending on who was in the scene, yet even then I relied on observations to support those thoughts. Then again, every character absolutely has her own bias as well, which is why I eschew jumping POVs.

But that's just the what I've been trying to get better. It doesn't necessarily tell a story any better than any other.

[Shadowknight12]

It's all a matter of degrees. If the narrator didn't have at least a teensy bit of bias then the story runs the risk of becoming a technical paper.

The standard Colonial styled dwelling was centered among a miscellaneously arranged grouping of

pinus strobus P. lambertiana, pinue strobus P. wallichiana, et cetera,

with an average density of .092 trees per square foot (trunk area at ground level) and an apparent standard deviation of 473% within the viewing area of the dwelling. The

homo sapiens

identified as 'Adrien' detected the presence of the aforementioned trees, which greatly reduced the number of photons reaching his fovea; he did so while simultaneously approaching said dwelling via use of an unspecified type of motorcar. The meteorological conditions were unfavorable due to the presence of nimbostratus clouds, and air vortices were applying between twenty and eighty pounds per square foot of force against different parts of his vehicle at random intervals.

LMFAO. I just spat coffee while reading that. So utterly hilarious, mainly because that's the sort of thing I usually have to write. It struck close to home for maximum hilarity.

Now imagine a sex scene described completely with angles, lengths/depths, volumes, etc.

Now wait a second. That could be a funny parody of Ikea Erotica and 'Insert Rod A into Slot B' porn.

To be serious though, I much prefer Shadowknight12's first example because it conveys the mood well without the overkill of the second, though I understand that was exaggerated to make your point clear. However, you could sneak in bias by providing "evidence" for each of the feelings mentioned in the second. (See On Writing by Stephen King for a terrific explanation.)

Yeah, I tried to cram as many adjectives as I could. Well, I find it funny that you mentioned evidence, since that's so second nature to me I completely forgot to mention it. I read what you said and went 'oh, right! Should've mentioned evidence and subjective impressions!' It's the kind of thing that happens when you show a computer to an elderly relative, you forget to tell them about a myriad things that are obvious to you, but not so much to the other person.

Actually, I try hard to incorporate descriptions of physical cues and other actions instead of just using adjectives in my writing. (I first recognized it in a Sailor Moon fanfic about a decade ago.) It lets you express the feelings and perhaps even the thoughts of the characters without jumping straight into any character's mind. (This strays in to the realm of "direction" and visual media, but hopefully it's still on-topic.)

Personally, I don't think that you can really separate adjectives from physical cues. If you say that the air was cold, you're using an adjective that describes a physical sensation. If you say that a shiver ran down Adrien's back, you ought to clarify if it's because of the cold (assuming you didn't mention it before), because he's about to enter an elevator and he's very claustrophobic, or because his new house feels like it's watching him. You know what I mean? I think that adding a lot of adjectives to a narration isn't necessarily in counterpoint to being more physical. I do agree that it's an oft neglected point, and I will confess making a mental note of checking all five senses (or more/less, depending on the characters in question) to enhance the writing. Most of the biased writing is judgemental in nature, showing us what a character thinks about the world. There's also the sentimental kind, but that one is kind of a given, since it'd take a very bad writer to write a biased TPO without considering the character's feelings (or their lack thereof, which can be just as important!). We could be reminded to explore other types of bias, I think.

And hey, I think that's definitely on topic. What we choose to show, and how, defines what kind of PoV and TPO we're dealing with.

Of course, there is still selective bias based on what you choose to show or have said. (Think news, political shows and ads, etc. for the most egregious examples.)

Having just finished my first first-person story — a fairly naive person — using the observable was extremely important, though I had plenty of play room using the character's thoughts to fill in many blanks.

Oh, yeah, something that often goes unmentioned is that the characters observe stuff in their own way, and it's often a conundrum whether to keep the reader blind about the truth, to let them in on the real thing, or to do a double blind and keep the reader in the dark about something that the character knows. I'm planning to implement the latter in an upcoming story that deals about a mysterious figure who keeps his identity a secret, and if/when a character figures it out, the reader will most certainly NOT be allowed into that character's thoughts. I just hope I'll be able to pull it off.

In another recent story I probably used more bias with TPO, mostly through character's thoughts. I tried to stick to a hierarchy of whose mind to invade depending on who was in the scene, yet even then I relied on observations to support those thoughts. Then again, every character absolutely has her own bias as well, which is why I eschew jumping POVs.

But that's just the what I've been trying to get better. It doesn't necessarily tell a story any better than any other.

Oh, I think the hierarchy idea is pretty interesting. I think that one of the problems with evidence is that normally it's the same for everyone. It doesn't get interpreted in the same way, of course, but it's always there, observable by all, and using that as a crutch when shifting PoVs can lead to a mess unless you keep things neat and orderly. If five different people see a corpse hanging over their dining room table, the only thing that keeps their PoVs different is their interpretation of the sight, since the corpse is a common element to all. Of course, this can be supplemented with each character noticing different extra bits of physical evidence. The fashion obsessed teenager notices that the corpse's clothes doesn't match at all, the nerd notices that the headphones she's wearing aren't connected to anything, the neat freak starts to freak out about the bloody mess on the expensive mahogany table, et cetera.

And yes, every character is biased pretty much by definition. That's why the TPO that takes sides is biased, too, because it starts to show things to the reader through the character's skewed lenses.

[FairySlayer]

LMFAO. I just spat coffee while reading that. So utterly hilarious, mainly because that's the sort of thing I usually have to write. It struck close to home for maximum hilarity.

Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all week. I hope the coffee didn't get on or into anything important. And yes, I've thought about the "technical breakdown" of a sex scene before. I don't intend to write one, since I have plenty of ideas which are actually arousing or at least (hopefully) thoughtful stories.

Personally, I don't think that you can really separate adjectives from physical cues. If you say that the air was cold, you're using an adjective that describes a physical sensation. If you say that a shiver ran down Adrien's back, you ought to clarify if it's because of the cold (assuming you didn't mention it before), because he's about to enter an elevator and he's very claustrophobic, or because his new house feels like it's watching him.

Oh, I'm not at all against (or capable of not) using adjective and adverbs, and I agree that we'll always need to rely on them in the basic storytelling (along with the "behind the scenes" reasons you mention). In writing we don't have the luxury of a sensory experiences.* Even the physical cues themselves usually need to be described with adjectives and adverbs to make any sense. ("She shivered while pulling her coat more tightly around herself.") Heck, there's still wiggle room for bias in even that.

*I could go off on another sensory tangent here, but it's more of a screenwriting topic.

Oh, I think the hierarchy idea is pretty interesting. I think that one of the problems with evidence is that normally it's the same for everyone. It doesn't get interpreted in the same way, of course, but it's always there, observable by all, and using that as a crutch when shifting PoVs can lead to a mess unless you keep things neat and orderly.

Well, sometimes giving a glimpse of what was on another character's mind was a must, even if the so-called highest-priority character (Strawberry Shortcake, FYI) was around. (I wouldn't write a partial geometric analysis of Custard's face to show that she was ashamed even as a joke. XD) In those cases I was happy to stick with the short and sweet adjectives. If it matters to the discussion, I used verbal thoughts only twice, and only when the character was alone in the scene. (Okay, I slipped in some muttering and exclamations too.)

If five different people see a corpse hanging over their dining room table, the only thing that keeps their PoVs different is their interpretation of the sight, since the corpse is a common element to all. Of course, this can be supplemented with each character noticing different extra bits of physical evidence. The fashion obsessed teenager notices that the corpse's clothes doesn't match at all, the nerd notices that the headphones she's wearing aren't connected to anything, the neat freak starts to freak out about the bloody mess on the expensive mahogany table, et cetera.

I think most of the characters present would have similar instinctive reactions immediately upon first seeing the body — that could open up a purely philosophical debate about whether those initial feelings are a "bias" of sorts, but that's way too heavy for me to get into. Your point about how each person would process the information after the initial shock is absolutely right.

I say "most of the characters" because you forgot the struggling undertaker who yelled, "Yes!" and the zombie who moaned, "DIBS ON BRAAAAIN!"

[Shadowknight12]

Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all week. I hope the coffee didn't get on or into anything important. And yes, I've thought about the "technical breakdown" of a sex scene before. I don't intend to write one, since I have plenty of ideas which are actually arousing or at least (hopefully) thoughtful stories.

Hah, no, just the table. Oh yes, there's always that, the other million ideas going on in a writer's mind that demand attention. Eh, there's always a "maybe in the distant future" list.

Oh, I'm not at all against (or capable of not) using adjective and adverbs, and I agree that we'll always need to rely on them in the basic storytelling (along with the "behind the scenes" reasons you mention). In writing we don't have the luxury of a sensory experiences.* Even the physical cues themselves usually need to be described with adjectives and adverbs to make any sense. ("She shivered while pulling her coat more tightly around herself.") Heck, there's still wiggle room for bias in even that.

*I could go off on another sensory tangent here, but it's more of a screenwriting topic.

True, that's what I was getting at.

Well, sometimes giving a glimpse of what was on another character's mind was a must, even if the so-called highest-priority character (Strawberry Shortcake, FYI) was around. (I wouldn't write a partial geometric analysis of Custard's face to show that she was ashamed even as a joke. XD) In those cases I was happy to stick with the short and sweet adjectives. If it matters to the discussion, I used verbal thoughts only twice, and only when the character was alone in the scene. (Okay, I slipped in some muttering and exclamations too.)

LOL, yeah, that'd be a tiny bit too much. The problem (at least to me) is, when writing biased TPO, showing things that the character being "followed" has no way of knowing. Surely, I can say that Adrien sees a strange darkness in his girlfriend's eyes, and that he interprets that as her knowing he's cheating on her (because of his guilty conscience), but I can't assert it. Nor can I dismiss the obvious conclusion (what the character himself would think) and tell the reader the truth ("Oh, it's just the anniversary of her father's death."). It's kind of tricky to include others in biased TPO without fully 'jumping' to them. And if you do jump, well, there's the mess mentioned earlier.

I think most of the characters present would have similar instinctive reactions immediately upon first seeing the body — that could open up a purely philosophical debate about whether those initial feelings are a "bias" of sorts, but that's way too heavy for me to get into. Your point about how each person would process the information after the initial shock is absolutely right.

I say "most of the characters" because you forgot the struggling undertaker who yelled, "Yes!" and the zombie who moaned, "DIBS ON BRAAAAIN!"

BWAHAHAHAHAH, you did it again. I was mindful not to drink this time.

And yes, I was just about to reply that even the initial reactions WOULD be a kind of bias, since not everyone would be surprised, or qualify the corpse as "hideous" or "gross." You yourself have given me examples right there!

But on the other hand, saying that not everyone was surprised to find the corpse can either enhance the suspense or break the scene's drama. So once again, it comes down to balance! And skill, duh.