Sex vs Canon

[kisakimiko]

OK, how does everyone feel about, and or deal with if you are a writer, the issue of sex scenes for adult fan fiction vs what the characters would be doing?

My Position: I don't like sex that is waaaaaaaaaay out of character unless the writer can put it in the original character's voice. Hard to do, for me anyhow. It helps me to use a plotline that I feel mimic's the original writer's base stories, or builds on an aspect of a plot that was left unexplored.

My Current Issue: How to put graphic enough sex into a story that was pretty lemonade all the way? The HBO series based on the book is another question as they took the sex WAAAAAAAAY over the top for that story already, something that slowed as the series gained popularity. Unlike most adult fan stories they kept the overly sexualized scenes mostly to the backstory or minor characters. That will not work for me or many others as use of main character pairings are typical.

[Guest dwitefry]

While I have no idea what HBO book based series you're talking about I'm interested in this topic.

The idea that can the personal fantasy of (your or) the writer make out of character sex/pairings/positions/fetishes/etc/etc acceptable or do will it stretch your suspension of disbelief to far? I suppose it depends on the person and how involved they are with characters/universe/fandom/etc/etc or how much of a stickler for authenticity they are. Me I'm a bit of randy bugger so I can enjoy out of character situations so long as they're engaged in something i find erotic and their personality remains in character - so long as that is the point of the fic I'm reading, that is, it's what I call a 'porno fic' - where a sex scene is the main focus, main subject or only subject of the fic.

HOWEVER if the fic is a story that involves sex or has a sex scene then no, the characters should only indulge sex scenes that fit with thier character, I just think that's good writing, even if they're 'experimenting' then experimenting should only be experimented with if the character is experimental - i.e. Wonder Girl I would consider experimental, Superman I would not (god what a geeky reference!)

But then again you have alternate universe fics, in which case I guess you can go nuts, but again only if it's supposed to be an alterante universe fic from the start - I hate it when people start saying 'it's an alternate universe - duh!' when getting called out on character derailment in a fic that was so clearly supposed to in-universe until they dropped the ball.

MeX

[Shadowknight12]

Hm. This is actually something I've been pondering myself, lately. Of course, when two characters have sexual chemistry between one another, your only problem is how NOT to get them into bed together (build-up to sex is good!). Then you have the gray areas, where you just can't tell if two characters have chemistry, or if a certain character would be into the OC you created. In that case, you just have to make an effort so that it makes sense and the character in question remains canon. Now, the problem comes when you want to do something that goes against what canon stands for. Personally, I disagree with dwitefry above. I think that if the author really does their job to justify the sex scene to me (doing research, finding a way for the character to remain IC, using logic, etc.), I'm going to think "hmmm, I actually respect this author for trying so hard. I'm going to suspend my disbelief to read this scene, he/she deserves that much."

Whether or not that effort on my behalf will be rewarded in the end is up to the writer, but so far I haven't really regretted having enforced this policy.

[JayDee]

As a pornographer I am perfectly happy to include sex instead of what the characters should be doing. In fact, the less I follow what they should be doing, the less chance there is of accidently producing something with artistic merit. (Edit - for any who did not know, a widely held definition of pornography is that it must lack artistic merit, as a pornographer I need to lack the artistic merit for successful!)

...say, if a guy is known to have big nuts in the actual series, would those be considered Canon Balls?

[Shadowknight12]

As a pornographer I am perfectly happy to include sex instead of what the characters should be doing. In fact, the less I follow what they should be doing, the less chance there is of accidently producing something with artistic merit.

...say, if a guy is known to have big nuts in the actual series, would those be considered Canon Balls?

Oh, how I'd wish that was sarcasm!

And actually, ALL males in a work have Canon Balls. Except the emasculated ones.

[kisakimiko]

Cannon Balls... I am still smiling.

I am glad to find other people thinking about this. Looks like it is easier to get away with straight PWP out of cannon than it is a story, hence the without plot part. And, AU is a whole other kettle of fun. JayDee has a great point. If you are looking for porn just get to it, don't cloud it with art. I wonder how it is then so much art gets rapped as pornographic. Hah. The world is a curious place.

And I was talking about True Blood on HBO. Mind you the blond Swede is a hunk, but the show is not as good as the book. But then I guess it never is.

I think I am going to have to keep this particular story less sexy and write a one shot that is straight PWP. I hope I can keep the plot to a minimum if I do write it.

[Shadowknight12]

Well, that sounds like a good compromise. I can't say how glad I am that the PWP tag exists for cases like this one. It really makes a world of difference, especially when you want to get a sex scene out of your head and you can't find a way to make it work in your story.

I do disagree with you guys when it comes to art vs. porn (since the Adult part in AFF doesn't necessarily mean 'all that matters is teh pronz'), but hey, to each their own!

[JayDee]

I am sorry if I have given the wrong impression - By saying that sex above correct actions/artywotnot works best for pornographers like myself I was not meaning to imply that the other adult works were secondary/less good. The adult erotica and even non sex stuff is great! I don't think there should be any kind of Vs issue!

[kisakimiko]

I don't think it is a vs issue either. The only vs I was deliberating was the inclusion of crazy wild out of character sex in cannon settings or not. I think all kinds of stories make a happy fanfic world. But it is nice to have things broken down with story tags (someone was thinkin) so ppl can tell from summaries what is in store.

If I was looking for romance and did not read story tags i may just get slash. And if I was looking for a good D/s story I could find it without getting caught in sappy romance.

It would be nice if all entertainment and books were tagged like this. It sure would make it easier to decide where to spend my money.

[Shadowknight12]

Ah, I see. I just come across that kind of attitude a lot and tend to champion the opposite side .

And yes, story tags are the best thing for fandoms. Regular books SHOULD have those. Of course, there's always the huge debate of whether you should spoil certain things with the tags or not (like Main Character Death, Rape, etc, when it's supposed to be a surprise to the reader). Normally, I err on the side of spoiling, but as little as possible.

[wanderingaddict]

hee, I don't think wild sex is ever "out of character" by itself. I think anyone could have some pretty wild scenes. it just gets weird and wonky when like, what they do in those scenes is just... fetishy, like the if Sookie decides she wants to do hardcore bdsm with Arlene on a whim! I mean, sure you could work in a little bit of a rope fetish in there with the lead-up of say, the two women trying some kinky ties on a 'girls night' or something, and that could even lead to some intense, hardcore sex stuff, but once it becomes, like... "more than casual sex" (i.e. either affecting their relationship overall or just wildly kinky), that's when it just is... weird...

[wanderingaddict]

oh, I forgot to talk about tagging! it's funny that you guys feel that way, actually. I usually don't even bother looking at tags, on one hand because there are so many unfinished stories that the tags are irrelevant, and on the other because so long as the story is good I shouldn't really care (and if it's bad it's my fault for continuing to read instead of just cutting my losses and just walking away). plus there are such wild differences between even a tag like "M/M" and "M/F"! I mean, there could be all of like, one chapter in a long-ass story where one male side character kisses another dude inbetween scenes of the heroine getting fucked senseless by hordes of barbarian orcs, or the whole story could be the inverse of that with one female side character blushing at the rejected suitor's charming smile while her gay Best Friend Forever spends 3 whole chapters working his boyfriend's cock right on the other side of the wall. and that's not even including all the other combinations of everything inbetween! AND that's just the sexual orientation stuff, not even getting into the incredible differences between "light' BDSM and crazy hardcore alligator clamps and leather suits BDSM.

I'm of the opinion that you should tag the predominant sexual orientations of the story, and unless it's a "one-shot one-hander" the rest is just up to the author. hah, I mean, geez, I've had reviewers tell me- on a clearly tagged M/M story- that "they didn't even know it was M/M until the sex" so it's really in the reader's hands whether they get the story they want to read, regardless.

Edited October 26, 2010 by wanderingaddict

[kisakimiko]

I see your point about tags, the orc reference was a hoot. I think that too many can be confusing and they should progress as the story does. If it does not have that element yet, don't tag it yet. But back to the orcs I would tag that for the wild orc sex but would have skipped the m/m tag if it was an insignificant encounter. Guess not everyone tags the same.

I would have to put the super crazazy wild sex (liek not vanilla yes) away from much plot still for myself. Of course I can see reasons to bend this guideline. You never know what will happen in a story to make someone break out of their mold.

[Shadowknight12]

Interesting points. I personally don't see tags as an attempt to describe the fic (for all the reasons and examples wanderingaddict mentioned), but as warnings to the reader. If someone is writing a M/F story but they decide to include a F/F sex scene, I think it's appropriate for them to warn the reader about it. Perhaps not in the story summary itself, if the scene isn't that relevant, but maybe in the chapter where it takes place, so as not to catch people by surprise. Personally, I don't really care about the genders of the persons involved, but I do care about stuff that might squick the fuck out of me, like scat or golden showers. And writing quality really makes a difference. I might tolerate stuff like MPreg or NonCon from a very, very good writer (and by this, I don't mean simply "writes well" but also "finds a way to make it relevant to the plot or character development"), so if I know from the first chapter what kind of writer it is, I know that when the dreaded scene comes, I'm not likely to tolerate it.

So anyway, what I'm trying to say here is "Tags are good because they keep a reader forewarned." If a reader ignores them, they have no right to complain afterwards. They need to see a doctor and get medication for their rampant ADD.

And I agree with kisamiko, too. Sometimes wild sex IS very, very relevant to the plot and actually makes the story interesting because it provides us with something to think about ("What if a vampire found a way to become human again, but remained psychologically addicted to blood and had to engage in hardcore fetishistic bloodletting sex to find inner peace?"). But like I said in my first post here, the writer has to put some effort to make it flow.