Grammar question!

[CloverReef]

Example: "Sean looked to the clock, before whipping out his knife and slicing the carrot in half." and

"Sean rushed up the steps, tripping over a discarded toy."

As opposed to:

"Sean rushed up the steps and tripped over a discarded toy."

Okay, so here's the deal. One of my biggest pet peeves is the common use of the -ing verbs after a comma. I see them as distracting - especially in action sentences. A long time ago I read a fiction writing tips article that said they tend to slow down action and take the power out of active verbs. It made sense to me, and still does.

I'm in the middle of editing a friend's story at the moment, who seems to prefer them. I usually just let it go and ignore them, unless it's noticeably breaking up the flow of a sentence. I already stated my case in the past and she doesn't understand what I don't like about them. I figured I was just being picky.

Tonight, I wanted to find that article that originally turned me off -ing verbs. Couldn't find it. All I found were a few articles about -ing verbs being less powerful with another verb before them. all the forum discussions on grammar websites I could find said that gerunds the way online writers commonly use them are perfectly correct. I found one that said gerunds make actions -more- powerful than the direct and -ed verbs. I feel like I've landed on another planet LOL.

So where do you stand on this topic? Do you use them, do you not like them? Why?

From what I've been told tonight, the examples I gave are grammatically correct. I can live with that, but proper grammar and how to write fiction can be two different things. Sometimes proper can be stiff or distracting in creative writing. I don't notice any of my favourite novel authors using gerunds in this way. Do these sentences bug you, or do you even like them better with the -ing than the other ways they could be written?

Update: OH! And I'd really like to know what the correct usage of -ing verbs are in the examples I gave at the beginning. (If you know, if you don't, don't worry about it) For instance, in the second example, would it only work if the two actions are happening simultaneously or would it work otherwise too? What are the rules?

[marley_station]

Example: "Sean looked to the clock, before whipping out his knife and slicing the carrot in half." and

"Sean rushed up the steps, tripping over a discarded toy."

As opposed to:

"Sean rushed up the steps and tripped over a discarded toy."

Okay, so here's the deal. One of my biggest pet peeves is the common use of the -ing verbs after a comma. I see them as distracting - especially in action sentences. A long time ago I read a fiction writing tips article that said they tend to slow down action and take the power out of active verbs. It made sense to me, and still does.

I'm in the middle of editing a friend's story at the moment, who seems to prefer them. I usually just let it go and ignore them, unless it's noticeably breaking up the flow of a sentence. I already stated my case in the past and she doesn't understand what I don't like about them. I figured I was just being picky.

Tonight, I wanted to find that article that originally turned me off -ing verbs. Couldn't find it. All I found were a few articles about -ing verbs being less powerful with another verb before them. all the forum discussions on grammar websites I could find said that gerunds the way online writers commonly use them are perfectly correct. I found one that said gerunds make actions -more- powerful than the direct and -ed verbs. I feel like I've landed on another planet LOL.

So where do you stand on this topic? Do you use them, do you not like them? Why?

From what I've been told tonight, the examples I gave are grammatically correct. I can live with that, but proper grammar and how to write fiction can be two different things. Sometimes proper can be stiff or distracting in creative writing. I don't notice any of my favourite novel authors using gerunds in this way. Do these sentences bug you, or do you even like them better with the -ing than the other ways they could be written?

Update: OH! And I'd really like to know what the correct usage of -ing verbs are in the examples I gave at the beginning. (If you know, if you don't, don't worry about it) For instance, in the second example, would it only work if the two actions are happening simultaneously or would it work otherwise too? What are the rules?

I agree with you. The grammar is correct, but that's not necessarily conducive to good fiction.

As for me, I tend to play it by ear. Case by case, and all that stuff.

[CloverReef]

For me it's a matter of the feeling you want to get across. Some times you don't WANT the action to seem powerful. You want it to seem procedural, or even pathetic, and that;s where you would use those.

"Bob lashes out, connecting an elbow to Lee's face, following with a right to the gut, and ending with an overhead axe handle. Simple."

"Bob lashes out, whiffing his attack and leaving him vulnerable to Lee's counter."

vs

"Bob lashes out and crushes Lee's ribs with a solid left."

Well at least now I know I'm not completely out of my mind yet! Yes, that's a good point. Sometimes an -ing would be good for intentionally making actions procedural. Never thought of that!

[ApolloImperium]

I think a lot of it too has to do with the author's writing style. I believe that so long as they are used sparingly they can still have impact. Now if every sentence is formatted that way....

[Guest Naga-Lord]

I used to write the way you perfer, but my beta naged me to death about it. Something about the text gets too filled with "and". Now, i'm stuck with the other form xD

[CloverReef]

I used to write the way you perfer, but my beta naged me to death about it. Something about the text gets too filled with "and". Now, i'm stuck with the other form xD

Oh lord, I have a few choice words for your beta! No, I'm kidding! If she/he prefers it that way, all the more power to her/him. Since they're technically grammatically correct, I only point them out when I'm betaing for flow reasons, and they become really distracting in key moments... Still, I believe the best cure for too many 'ands' is more period... but of course that depends on the context too!

[Guest Naga-Lord]

Well, it was annoying in the beginning, now I don't know what to think. I still like to use "and" sentences, but it's no longer my main form. I do however know how to change my style to speed up the tempo at intense moments :3 Lol. But I don't do well with change so I do remember being a weeee bit cranky when I changed style, since I didn't really do it by choise. I don't use a beta anymore. Don't get me wrong, she did help me with other things that made me improve, but I want to feel that my writing is all my own. My stories are mine. I think what scared me was that a beta wrote "If I have to help change a lot in the story I feel that the story becomes mine" and I really couldn't agree with that. I'm not saying all betas think like that, goodness no, but I don't really feel like using one anymore...

Well, I'm done ranting now. E he he he...

[CloverReef]

Well, it was annoying in the beginning, now I don't know what to think. I still like to use "and" sentences, but it's no longer my main form. I do however know how to change my style to speed up the tempo at intense moments :3 Lol. But I don't do well with change so I do remember being a weeee bit cranky when I changed style, since I didn't really do it by choise. I don't use a beta anymore. Don't get me wrong, she did help me with other things that made me improve, but I want to feel that my writing is all my own. My stories are mine. I think what scared me was that a beta wrote "If I have to help change a lot in the story I feel that the story becomes mine" and I really couldn't agree with that. I'm not saying all betas think like that, goodness no, but I don't really feel like using one anymore...

Well, I'm done ranting now. E he he he...

I'd feel the same way in that situation. I believe if a beta changes so much that the story becomes theirs, they've changed too much. My very first beta years ago restructured every sentence I wrote to make it sound more like something he'd write. I hated it so after the first couple chapters I stopped asking him to beta, and went without one until I made my friends in my first fandom. I try to make a conscious effort not to turn the fics I beta into something I would write. I don't want to adopt my friends stories, I don't see them as my own at all, but of course I'm not perfect so I make mistakes.

I'm certain I've pissed off the writers I beta for just like my beta has irritated me on numerous occassions. I KNOW I pissed a couple people off with the -ing thing. For a while there, even though I was trying to help and wanted to make things flow easier, I admit I was a little patronizing about it. I think I just took myself way too seriously, and I'm sure a few betas mistakenly do too, with the best of intentions, of course.

Now... I'm so distracted I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore, so I'll shut up. Ta!

[FairySlayer]

Well CloverReef, I am very grateful to you for posting this question and to everyone else for their input. I've been following the thread all along, and it made me realize how much I was "cheating" by using comma-*ing where I shouldn't have. Looking more carefully at that has made a big difference already, since I'm finishing the last chapter of one story and finally sent another (hopefully) finished story off to my partner in crime for a final review.

Sure, I'll still use the comma-*ing where one action automatically causes another to happen at the same time, and it still has some uses for immediacy and even style. However, I'll be much more careful about making new clauses or sentences when I should. So for me, "He thrust his pelvis forward, sinking himself into her" may be all right, but "She whipped out her frosting bag, squirting it all over the little girl's face." will be split up to show that there are two separate actions: "She whipped out her frosting bag and sprayed it all over the little girl's face."

Maybe I'm still not going to get it perfect, but I'll think twice (or more) now.

I think what scared me was that a beta wrote "If I have to help change a lot in the story I feel that the story becomes mine" and I really couldn't agree with that. I'm not saying all betas think like that, goodness no, but I don't really feel like using one anymore...

I truly understand why that would turn any writer off. Still, keep trying out different betas until you find someone you can work with. I have a fantastic co-beta relationship now, where we not only proofread each other's work but also trade great notes and ideas. When she was unavailable for several months my work suffered: I couldn't find anyone reliable so I'd "ice" stories for a week or two before proofreading them myself (and then maybe icing them again, etc.), but when I look at those now I find too many mistakes. Heck, last week I finally realized that I'd used "Donna" in place of "Linda" throughout my year-old Phineas and Ferb story. (Duh-me.)

[cowgirl65]

....Sure, I'll still use the comma-*ing where one action automatically causes another to happen at the same time, and it still has some uses for immediacy and even style. However, I'll be much more careful about making new clauses or sentences when I should. So for me, "He thrust his pelvis forward, sinking himself into her" may be all right, but "She whipped out her frosting bag, squirting it all over the little girl's face." will be split up to show that there are two separate actions: "She whipped out her frosting bag and sprayed it all over the little girl's face."

Maybe I'm still not going to get it perfect, but I'll think twice (or more) now.

I do tend to write with the comma- "ing" and when I proofread a few days later, a lot of them get changed. but I agree, It does have it's place. Too many 'ands' get distracting and too many short sentences feel choppy, unless the scene calls for that.

I picked out a bit from something I wrote, which do you prefer?

Nick caught a glimpse out of the corner of his eye that made him stop and stare, giving his full attention to the young man loading posts onto the wagon. His shirt was plastered to his back in the heat, clinging to the muscles that rippled with every movement. How the devil did the young man fit into those tight pants anyway?

or

Nick caught a glimpse out of the corner of his eye that made him stop and stare. He gave his full attention to the young man loading posts onto the wagon. His shirt was plastered to his back in the heat and clung to the muscles that rippled with every movement. How the devil did the young man fit into those tight pants anyway?

[Guest Naga-Lord]

I picked out a bit from something I wrote, which do you prefer?

Nick caught a glimpse out of the corner of his eye that made him stop and stare, giving his full attention to the young man loading posts onto the wagon. His shirt was plastered to his back in the heat, clinging to the muscles that rippled with every movement. How the devil did the young man fit into those tight pants anyway?

or

Nick caught a glimpse out of the corner of his eye that made him stop and stare. He gave his full attention to the young man loading posts onto the wagon. His shirt was plastered to his back in the heat and clung to the muscles that rippled with every movement. How the devil did the young man fit into those tight pants anyway?

Lol, good question. I like the second one best. Not because it used the "and"-form, but because the structures of the sentences varied in form. If every sentence is built up the same way, however it is built up, it gets boring I think. :3

[Guest Naga-Lord]

Lol, I do get what you guys are saying. You can't judge all betas because of a few. Betas also keep you on your toes. I've only had two. The first one made me change my way of building sentences, somthing I still do and can't seem to stop doing. It's "ing" for the win with me. The other I had, well, when I went back to the chapter some time later, after it had been betad and posted, I found a lot of misstakes still in the text. Things I had wanted my beta to spot, wich is why I had one. The feeling "Heck no, if this is how it works I'll do it myself!" kind of stuck with me. Lol. I can be a bit stubborn. Which is not really all that good for me, cause I have a light case of dyslexia. I really should use a beta ^^; Right now, my best help comes from microsoft word, which is a good program I think. My other problem is, I'm just too eager. When I have written my chapter and read through it three times (at least) I want to post it right away. Lol. If my beta have to read it, that takes more time until posting time. I feel like a little kid, staring at the big chocolate cake, just waiting for dinner to be over.

Ahhh, the dilemma...

[CloverReef]

I do tend to write with the comma- "ing" and when I proofread a few days later, a lot of them get changed. but I agree, It does have it's place. Too many 'ands' get distracting and too many short sentences feel choppy, unless the scene calls for that.

I picked out a bit from something I wrote, which do you prefer?

Nick caught a glimpse out of the corner of his eye that made him stop and stare, giving his full attention to the young man loading posts onto the wagon. His shirt was plastered to his back in the heat, clinging to the muscles that rippled with every movement. How the devil did the young man fit into those tight pants anyway?

or

Nick caught a glimpse out of the corner of his eye that made him stop and stare. He gave his full attention to the young man loading posts onto the wagon. His shirt was plastered to his back in the heat and clung to the muscles that rippled with every movement. How the devil did the young man fit into those tight pants anyway?

I like the second one (I know, surprise, surprise.) I think it flows a lot smoother.

And to FairySlayer, I'm glad it helped, even if a little bit. I totally agree with using the ing for immediacy, or for two things happening simultaneously, if in moderation. That's a great use for them. You made my day!

[FairySlayer]

I picked out a bit from something I wrote, which do you prefer?

Nick caught a glimpse out of the corner of his eye that made him stop and stare, giving his full attention to the young man loading posts onto the wagon. His shirt was plastered to his back in the heat, clinging to the muscles that rippled with every movement. How the devil did the young man fit into those tight pants anyway

[/size]

?

or

Nick caught a glimpse out of the corner of his eye that made him stop and stare. He gave his full attention to the young man loading posts onto the wagon. His shirt was plastered to his back in the heat and clung to the muscles that rippled with every movement. How the devil did the young man fit into those tight pants anyway?

If Nick simply had to "stare" but not "stop and stare" then I'd have been in favor of the first sentence of the first example (1-1). Even as-is it still works, but the sense of simultaneous action isn't as strong. In different tenses I'd have other ideas, but I don't want to go too hog wild.

The third sentence of the second example (2-3) is definitely better than its counterpart (1-2): my pedantic side attempts to keep the modifiers close to the subject or object as possible, so even though it "works" I'd want to re-write the sentence. Yet if you put the prepositional phrase of (1-2) at the start of the sentence then that would work also — except that it's probably easier on the reader if you don't use the comma-*ing twice in a row, or too much at all.

So for a firm answer I'd pick the second snippet. Perhaps like semicolons, comma-*ing should be used sparingly.

And to FairySlayer, I'm glad it helped, even if a little bit. I totally agree with using the ing for immediacy, or for two things happening simultaneously, if in moderation. That's a great use for them. You made my day!

At the very least it made me think twice as I was polishing off my Strawberry Shortcake story (up later tonight perhaps!) and the last chapter of the Ruby Gloom tale, though that one is first-person and gets some leeway.

Keep posting your thoughts (and everyone else too) and I can make your day while you make my writing better. It'll be win-win for everyone.

[cowgirl65]

Thanks for this thread. Reading over some of my writing, I've realized that I write the comma "ing" automatically and really have to proof and correct it. I totally agree about varying the sentence structure. Now that I've let a few stories age (y'know like a fine wine LOL), it's a lot easier to pick out where I've overused it. You've definitely moved my writing up a notch!